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Finlam
2017-10-17, 11:05 AM
Hello Playground,

We've all seen the spell "Vampiric Touch" and noticed that while it's conceptually cool, it's definitely not optimal. In this post we're going to optimize it a bit by porting it over to the Mystic class. This build has 3 key components

The spell:


The touch of your shadow-wreathed hand can siphon force from others to heal your wounds. Make a melee spell Attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the Attack again on each of your turns as an action.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.

The Discipline:


Immortal Discipline
You infuse yourself with psionic energy to grow to tremendous size, bolstering your strength and durability.
Psychic Focus. While focused on this discipline, your reach increases by 5 feet.

Ogre Form (2 psi; conc., 1 min.). As a bonus action, you gain 10 temporary hit points. In addition, until your concentration ends, your melee weapon attacks deal an extra 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit, and your reach increases by 5 feet. If you’re smaller than Large, you also become Large for the duration.

Giant Form (7 psi; conc., 1 min.). As a bonus action, you gain 30 temporary hit points. In addition, until your concentration ends, your melee weapon attacks deal an extra 2d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit, and your reach increases by 10 feet. If you’re smaller than Huge, you also become Huge for the duration.


The subclass:


Arcane Dabbler
At 6th level, you learn three wizard spells of your choice and always have them prepared. The spells must be of 1st through 3rd level.
As a bonus action, you can spend psi points to create spell slots that you can use to cast these spells, as well as other spells you are capable of casting. The psi-point cost of each spell slot is detailed on the table below.

[table redacted]

The spell slot remains until you use it or finish a long rest. You must observe your psi limit when spending psi points to create a spell slot.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the chosen wizard spells with a different wizard spell of 1st through 3rd level.


So now our 6th level character can Vampiric Touch at a range of 10 feet while gracefully maneuvering outside of melee range of most monsters. Yet it's still only 1d6 damage per spell level, it uses our attack action, and it has a chance to miss. Can we make it better?

The extra oomph (another discipline):


Immortal Discipline
You augment your natural strength with psionic energy, granting you the ability to achieve incredible feats of might.
Psychic Focus. While focused on this discipline, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks.

Brute Strike (1–7 psi). As a bonus action, you gain a bonus to your next damage roll against a target you hit with a melee attack during the current turn. The bonus equals +1d6 per psi point spent, and the bonus damage is the same type as the attack. If the attack has more than one damage type, you choose which one to use for the bonus damage.

Knock Back (1–7 psi). When you hit a target with a melee attack, you can activate this ability as a reaction. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be knocked 10 feet away from you per psi point spent. The target moves in a straight line. If it hits an object, this movement immediately ends and the target takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per psi point spent.

Mighty Leap (1–7 psi). As part of your movement, you jump in any direction up to 20 feet per psi point spent.

Feat of Strength (2 psi). As a bonus action, you gain a +5 bonus to Strength checks until the end of your next turn.


Now our 6th level Wu Jen has 10 feet of reach and can Vampiric Touch for 8d6 necrotic damage (healing half the amount) with the option to push the target away and gain extra damage from pushing it into a wall.

The downsides are that Vampiric Touch has an innate lack of synergy with any reach build because a spell that heals the caster does not synergize well a build that avoids damage to the caster.

For an even lighter investment we could just dip Mystic 1 to get the 10 feet of reach, but that 2 point psi-limit is really going to hurt our ability to nova.

Considering that core of the build uses only two of our 5 disciplines and only 1 of our 3 spells known, it presents a powerful option for characters who need to heal and deal a decent amount of damage.

---That's the base build---


Now let's explore potential add-ons.

Can we take it farther?

We could throw in some cleric for the Death Domain


Channel Divinity: Touch of Death
Starting at 2nd level, the cleric can use Channel Divinity to destroy another creature's life force by touch.

When the cleric hits a creature with a melee attack, the cleric can use Channel Divinity to deal extra necrotic damage to the target. The damage equals 5 + twice his or her cleric level.

But since this ability scales with cleric level, we're pretty committed to going Mystic 6/Cleric X. Also, the death domain already gains vampiric touch. Paradoxically enough, our Vampiric Touch build has very little synergy with the Death Domain.

Instead we're better off adding a mere 2 levels of Sorcerer for the metamagic options:



When you Cast a Spell that has a Casting Time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the Casting Time to 1 Bonus Action for this casting.


Why quicken? Let's take one more look at the wording for vampiric touch: "Make a melee spell Attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the Attack again on each of your turns as an action."

By quickening the spell we can make two attacks with Vampiric Touch in the first round that we cast it. But that's not really optimal either: we gain more by using our bonus action with Brutal Strike instead and just pumping up the damage at a 1 PP to 1d6 ratio. Honestly, rather than quicken, we'd get more mileage out of Empower which at least allows to re-roll some of of 1's.

Sadly, none of the other metamagics will really help us to optimize this spell as it is range of self, can't be twinned, and has a long enough duration to make extending it unappealing.

Perhaps instead, 2 levels of Wizard for the Necromancer ability:


At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.

At least now we're getting (8d8)/2 + 9 hit points back if we kill something with Vampiric Touch. That's OK, but we're now 8th level Mystic 6/Wiz 2. Can we get more oomph out of it?

We can as a Fiend Warlock:


Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1).


So now when we kill something with Vampiric Touch we gain (8d8)/2+9 HP and Warlock Level + CHA temp HP. Better, but a lot of investment for a niche trick, especially when almost all of our effectiveness comes from our first choice of Wu Jen 6.

Warlock levels may be worth it if we plan on going Warlock for the rest of build.

In conclusion: the Vampiric Touch spell is neat conceptually, but requires a lot of bizarre and unintended ability interactions to make it even somewhat effective. The most "bang for our buck" comes from exploiting the Mystic ability to smite with the spell's existing damage type; everything else is a lot of investment for relatively small gains. It may be worth it on a Mystic (Wu Jen) 6, but I don't think I'd look twice at it on any other class.

Can we improve it further? Post your ideas below.


Vampiric Touch (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Vampiric%20Touch#content)
Mystic v3 (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf)
Death Domain (http://mcdt25e.wikidot.com/subclass:death-domain)

Sirithhyando
2017-10-17, 11:42 AM
Instead we're better off adding a mere 2 levels of Sorcerer for the metamagic options:



Why quicken? Let's take one more look at the wording for vampiric touch: "Make a melee spell Attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the Attack again on each of your turns as an action."

By quickening the spell we can make two attacks with Vampiric Touch in the first round that we cast it. But that's not really optimal either: we gain more by using our bonus action with Brutal Strike instead and just pumping up the damage at a 1 PP to 1d6 ratio. Honestly, rather than quicken, we'd get more mileage out of Empower which at least allows to re-roll some of of 1's.

Sadly, none of the other metamagics will really help us to optimize this spell as it is range of self, can't be twinned, and has a long enough duration to make extending it unappealing.



One thing, when you cast a spell using a spell slot (attack or bonus action), you can't cast a 2nd spell that use a spell slot, only a cantrip. That's the only flaw I saw with a quick read.

Love the analysis btw
And i'd always go warlock ;)

Finlam
2017-10-17, 11:45 AM
One thing, when you cast a spell using a spell slot (attack or bonus action), you can't cast a 2nd spell that use a spell slot, only a cantrip. That's the only flaw I saw with a quick read.

Love the analysis btw
And i'd always go warlock ;)
Actually, we're still only casting one spell. It's an easy mistake to make. We're only casting Vampiric Touch as a bonus action, which allows us to make an attack; we then use our attack action to make the second Vampiric Touch attack: one spell, two attacks in the first round.

Ventruenox
2017-10-17, 12:23 PM
I love the concept here, but it seems that you are using your Bonus Action multiple times. I may be reading it wrong, though.

Wu Jen ability for a spell: Bonus Action
Brute Force for either Brute Strike or Knockback: Bonus Action
Metamagics (if used): Bonus Action

To cast this spell and use Mystic Disciplines, you will have to be Wizard/Warlock/Death Cleric 5, since it is a 3rd level spell and requires Concentration. (Meaning we need the Psychic Focus for reach instead of enlarging to Ogre/Giant size.) Mystic level would probably have to be 5-9 to get more oomph due to Psi limits.

Somewhere it seems that you went from d6 in your calculations to d8. I might have missed a crucial justification for that one.

It's a heavy investment, but certainly a neat trick.

DivisibleByZero
2017-10-17, 12:26 PM
So Mystic 6 / Wizard 2 / Cleric 2 / Sorcerer 2 / Warlock 1.... just to get the most out of Vampric Touch?
You must really love that spell.

Finlam
2017-10-17, 12:32 PM
So Mystic 6 / Wizard 2 / Cleric 2 / Sorcerer 2 / Warlock 1.... just to get the most out of Vampric Touch?
You must really love that spell.
I may need to go back and make it clearer, but Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock are only potential add ons to the base of Mystic 6, not meant to be on the same build. Though you could if you really love that spell a lot.

And yes, the conclusion is that ultimately Vampiric Touch is a poorly designed spell that takes some pretty ridiculous combinations and investment to make it effective. That said, with only Mystic 6 you can make it achieve a pretty good balance between investment and effectiveness.


RE: bonus actions.
Quicken is an alternative to the bonus action smiting from the Mystic class as is specifically called out as such: they are not being used in the same round it's one or other and (as stated in the OP) Mystic smiting is much more effective.

The Wu Jen Spell slots last until you finish a long rest: there's no reason to not just create some and have them on standby. Using a bonus action to create them in combat would be a pretty desperate act.

DivisibleByZero
2017-10-17, 12:40 PM
And yes, the conclusion is that ultimately Vampiric Touch is a poorly designed spell that takes some pretty ridiculous combinations and investment to make it effective. That said, with only Mystic 6 you can make it achieve a pretty good balance between investment and effectiveness.

I disagree.
Vampiric Touch is not poorly designed nor does it need "some pretty ridiculous combinations and investment to make it effective."
Vampiric Touch is a fantastic spell, which damages an enemy and heals the caster for a bit at the same time (which is something that an arcane caster can't normally do at all).
It's niche, and situational, but it is not underpowered or poorly designed in any way.

Trampaige
2017-10-17, 12:46 PM
At least now we're getting 8d8 + 9 hit points back if we kill something with Vampiric Touch. That's OK, but we're now 8th level Mystic 6/Wiz 2. Can we get more oomph out of it?

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As you quoted in your own post, you regain health equal to half of the necrotic damage dealt by the vampiric touch spell, not the full amount of damage. And you are adding d6s of damage to the spell, from a different source. It's debatable if the d6 being added by brute strike is actually being dealt by the vampiric touch, for the sake of healing, as well.

Finlam
2017-10-17, 12:54 PM
I disagree.
Vampiric Touch is not poorly designed nor does it need "some pretty ridiculous combinations and investment to make it effective."
Vampiric Touch is a fantastic spell, which damages an enemy and heals the caster for a bit at the same time (which is something that an arcane caster can't normally do at all).
It's niche, and situational, but it is not underpowered or poorly designed in any way.
It's a very unique and flavorful spell that allows arcane casters to heal when they otherwise couldn't: I agree whole-heartedly.

But is it too niche to warrant the cost of a 3rd level spell? Let's look at the drawbacks of it the caster has to
a) need healing (because why would you use it otherwise?)
b) willingly or unwilling be in melee with an attacker and let's not forget
c) hit with a melee spell attack (one of the most easily defended against attack types)
-it also-
d) consumes your action each time you use it and
e) requires your concentration

So to make it worth it you need:
a) no better use for your action
b) to close into melee
c) not be concentrating on a spell
d) not have better spells to concentrate on

Lastly, if you're already injured and you're closing into melee to try to heal: what if you miss? Now you're in melee and may have to eat an OA to retreat? That's not even to mention that being in melee is about the worst decision you can make if you want to keep concentrating on a spell as every hit could make it fizzle.

The costs are high, risks are higher, the reward is small. It seems to me like we've gone beyond niche into downright esoteric. Not a good use for 3rd level spell. Maybe if they kept the 1d6 damage per spell level and scaled it down to a level 1 or 2 spell it would justify the costs.

Finlam
2017-10-17, 12:55 PM
As you quoted in your own post, you regain health equal to half of the necrotic damage dealt by the vampiric touch spell, not the full amount of damage. And you are adding d6s of damage to the spell, from a different source. It's debatable if the d6 being added by brute strike is actually being dealt by the vampiric touch, for the sake of healing, as well.
Good catch: I'll update that in the OP.

Ventruenox
2017-10-17, 01:12 PM
The bonus damage from Brutal Strike being of a necrotic type could be justified for healing per the wording of Vampiric Touch. On the cheese scale, I'd rate it a 4. Depends on the DM.

At Wu Jen 6, You would have 5 fully powered Vampiric Touch attacks per long rest (pumping 5 Psi Points on each, 2 remaining Psi Points for the day). And that is all in one encounter. Two castings of the spell at Wu Jen 6 gives only 4 fully powered attacks, etc. The Psi Limits and Psi Point totals keep it pretty balanced.

If you want to break this concept without needing Vampiric Touch to be cast, a Zendikar Vampire race Mystic would do the trick and be online as early as Level 1. Racial ability increases have some minor synergy as well. (+1 Int)


Blood Thirst. You can drain blood and life energy
from a willing creature, or one that is grappled by
you, incapacitated, or restrained. Make a melee attack
against the target. If you hit, you deal 1 piercing damage
and 1d6 necrotic damage. The target’s hit point
maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic
damage taken, and you regain hit points equal to
that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes
a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its
hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid killed in this way
becomes a null (see “A Zendikar Bestiary”).

Finlam
2017-10-17, 01:18 PM
If you want to break this without needing Vampiric Touch to be cast, a Zendikar Vampire race Mystic would do the trick.
I actually had to go look that up and you're spot-on: synergizing the Mystic's Brutal Strike with the vampire would ridiculous. =D



You can drain blood and life energy from a willing creature, or one that is grappled by you, incapacitated, or restrained. Make a melee attack against the target. If you hit, you deal 1 piercing damage and 1d6 necrotic damage. The target’s hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken, and you regain hit points equal to that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid killed in this way becomes a null (see “A Zendikar Bestiary”).

It requires a status effect on the target before you can do it, but the 1-1 necrotic to healing ratio is pretty awesome.


The Vampire Race (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/magic/Plane%20Shift%20Zendikar.pdf).

[EDIT]
Shadow-Monied: great minds think alike, I also edited the vampire description into my post =P