New Player wants to be Barbarian with Bow

[Zampanó]

Hi all, I'm writing as a new DM worried about breaking the balance in a low-op game. (Players have been given advice on builds from a more experienced player but I want to encourage them to go with character ideas in favor of mechanical excellence.)

A new player would like to be a barbarian and play with a bow. I warned him that just about every class feature specifies a boost to melee weapons. I'm wondering what the harm would be of allowing him to Rage so long as he shoots each turn from within 15 feet, and saying Rage bonus damage applies to shots within that 15 foot range.

I've also considered giving him a bow with a harder draw weight that uses Dex to hit but Str for damage, but that is much more mechanically complicated to think about so it is still more of a rough draft.

I'm hoping to talk with him soon to discuss whether a Ranger or Fighter would also fit his character concept, but it would be nice to know going in to that conversation how his request (bow barbarian) would work mechanically...

[MrStabby]

Yeah, it wont work that well unfortunately.

Now if the player wants some of the barbarian features then you could feel free to swap them with other class features - things like advantage on initiative and against traps, higher move speed etc..

Possibly you could try for a spell-free ranger (or at least spell light) swapping in some barbarian features instead; ask which ones draw him to barbarian.

Talk about the other classes and why they want barbarian. It may end up being simple and a simple class swap might work. Also from memory the kensai monk might work with appropriate refluff - strength for bows, no armour and can hold their own in a fist-fight.

[GlenSmash!]

It's time to ask "what about the Barbarian appeals to you?" If the answer is I want to play an archer form a tribal culture or something similar, point out that that is what the Outlander Background represents.

The Barbarian class is something different.

[Biggstick]

It's time to ask "what about the Barbarian appeals to you?" If the answer is I want to play an archer form a tribal culture or something similar, point out that that is what the Outlander Background represents.

The Barbarian class is something different.

This so much. A Ranger or Fighter with the Outlander background very easily fits the idea of an archer from a tribal culture. While the Barbarian class might know how to use a bow (represented in their proficiency with all martial weapons), they definitely are about getting in close range and using melee weapons as their primary form of combat.

[GlenSmash!]

This so much. A Ranger or Fighter with the Outlander background very easily fits the idea of an archer from a tribal culture. While the Barbarian class might know how to use a bow (represented in their proficiency with all martial weapons), they definitely are about getting in close range and using melee weapons as their primary form of combat.

Granted I Like to grab a Longbow on all my Barbarians since there are times you just can't reach your enemies. And honestly 14 Dex +Proficiency is not that bad.

[Biggstick]

Granted I Like to grab a Longbow on all my Barbarians since there are times you just can't reach your enemies. And honestly 14 Dex +Proficiency is not that bad.

It really isn't. Especially at higher levels when your proficiency bonus goes up. I've had people make that same exact realization when they try to attack with a weapon or style they haven't considered but they have a 14-16 in the specific attack stat the style requires.

[lunaticfringe]

What type of Barbarian (Full Eagle could be beneficial)? And second or third why Barbarian?

I wouldn't give them any special treatment unless that is a thing you give all your players. Just explain everything that keys off strength & melee (and STR does pretty much Jack for ranged in 5e). At the end of they day all you really need is Sharpshooter & decent Dex to pull off an Archer.

[OldTrees1]

You have good DM instincts:
You are promoting character ideas
You are thinking about reasonable tweaking of mechanics to accommodate reasonable character ideas
You are following up on a character idea to double check to see which exiting mechanics would be applicible

Depending on the follow up, an Outlander Ranger or some other existing option might fit. But you don't need our help for that case. So I will stick to the hypothetical case of making a Bow Barbarian.

You could have a Dexterity Bow Barbarian or a Strength Bow Barbarian. Each of these would tweak the mechanics slightly differently.

The Dexterity Bow Barbarian misses out on Rage and Reckless Attack
The Strength Bow Barbarians misses out on Rage, Reckless Attack, and basical +atk/+damage

Of these features, only Reckless Attack gets noticable stronger if allowed on ranged attacks (it expects you to be attacked).

So I think your idea of a Dex atk/Str damage bow and a 15ft range on Rage to be a good idea. However you could probably go further. Maybe allow rage to 60ft and allow arrows shot within 60ft to be treated as Str/Str weapons with a 20/60 range (like a handaxe throwing barbarian). Or event allow a Str/Str shortbow and allow rage with that specific shortbow.

[Elric VIII]

Depending on what your player wants out of this, you have a few options. The above ideas about changing the class are probably the easiest, but of if the player really wants barb, you could try the following:

Option 1 - drop his HD down to a d10, make his barb features only work with dex ranged weapons within 15 or 30 feet. The decreased HD compensates for the increase in survivability he gets from bein dex-based and at range.

Option 2 - he can use bows with str and apply barb features accordingly, but only to bows, not melee. Limit the range like above, but don't change te HD since he still uses 3 attributes.


If the player wants range, you could lower his HD another step or take away the damage reduction during rage to compensate.

[Slipperychicken]

My guess is that his newbie instincts are telling him to avoid dying at all costs, so he's picking the tankiest class and the fighting style he perceives as lowest risk.

[lunaticfringe]

Also I think there maybe some possible shenanigans with Ancestral Protector but someone else may want check that. I know RAW your shield reaction thingy only works if you see the attack which is kinda Wonky if you are the Frontline. Hanging back kinda makes sense to get most out of your reaction abilities.

[AttilatheYeon]

Nothing wrong with a barbarian with a bow. It's an odd choice for an improvised melee weapon, but it's not the worst 😉

[Asmotherion]

It's time to ask "what about the Barbarian appeals to you?" If the answer is I want to play an archer form a tribal culture or something similar, point out that that is what the Outlander Background represents.

The Barbarian class is something different.

My answear would be more or less in the same wavelenth. On the other hand, some people do enjoy playing unoptimised concepts... just make sure he does understand what he is getting into, in case that's what he wants to do.

Finally, maybe he just want to have a Bow as a ranged option and stay melee most of the time; I see no problem with that whatsoever.

[JackPhoenix]

Nothing wrong with a barbarian with a bow. It's an odd choice for an improvised melee weapon, but it's not the worst 😉

Longow also has Heavy property, so it works with GWM. Actualy, you can stack GWM and Sharpshooter for -10/+20 when smacking things with bow in melee. I don't know why would you, but still....

GWM requires melee attack with a weapon you're proficient with. Barbarian is proficient with longbow, even though he can't apply the proficiency when using it as improvised weapon in melee
Sharpshooter require attack with ranged weapon. It doesn't say anything about the attack needing to be ranged weapon attack.

[Rynjin]

One of the worst things about 5e is its pigeonholing of character concepts. There's no reason to get rid of ranged Paladins and Barbarians, it's just trying to artificially inflate character "variety" by making people pick a different class just to have a certain fighting style. I personally would just allow Barbarian abilities to work with ranged weapons. Thrown ones particularly, if nothing else.

If you're concerned about him doubling up and getting boosts in melee as well for some reason or (more understandably) having the Bear Totem plus the ranged survivability boost, consider homebrewing a Primal Path for him.

As a general idea, at 3rd level they they get a different kind of Rage that replaces the original one, this Rage grants the damage bonus to ranged instead of melee, drops the advantage on Str checks and saves (replacing it with adding their proficiency modifier to Dex saves while raging). If you're feeling generous, rather than replacing Rage this gives an OPTION of Rage types, both drawing from the same pool of daily Rage uses.

Then give other thematic abilities at 6, 10, and 14, or just take the easy way out and let him have the 3/6/14 Eagle totem abilities at those levels.

[Mystral]

Nevermind, wrong forum.

[RickAllison]

Barbarian class alternatives:

Ranger, which is especially close to Totem Barbarian with spellcasting that is closely tied to nature and primal forces
Fighter, where Action Surge is a viable "rage" and Battlemaster maneuvers are great to represent the skilled, but unorthodox style of a primal warrior
Rogue, especially nice for a Wolf Totem Barbarian. I really like Mastermind for this concept, as the rogue can act like an actual wolf in the pack by striking when doing so is advantageous, and simultaneously or totally aiding his allies by harrying the foe. You really only need three levels for this concept to get what it wants out of the class, so this may be best in a multiclass depending on how much you want Evasion and more Sneak Attack.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I would always recommend this bit of homebrew (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/6uzb60/the_compendium_of_forgotten_secrets_ultimate/). The Wild Hunt Patron has an Invocation that allows you to summon a Strength-using Bow, and has the added benefit of increasing your Hunter's Mark damage. A 2-3 level dip into Warlock never hurt anyone.

[gloryblaze]

I would always recommend this bit of homebrew (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/6uzb60/the_compendium_of_forgotten_secrets_ultimate/). The Wild Hunt Patron has an Invocation that allows you to summon a Strength-using Bow, and has the added benefit of increasing your Hunter's Mark damage. A 2-3 level dip into Warlock never hurt anyone.

Maybe it's just me but my gut says most of the subclasses and invocations in that document are massively busted. It feels like they just sort of threw in riders on all the abilities and hoped no one would notice - "at 6th level, you can summon this [broken] companion that resists a bunch of stuff and always has advantage. Oh and btw also you resist cold now."

I prefer the Wild Hunt patron from MFOV:

http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/01/the-wild-hunt.html?m=1

It definitely seems more balanced to me in the areas where they're similar (summons a regular hound instead of the busted pack, can survive in extreme temps is packaged w/ resist cold as a separate feature instead of resist cold being tossed into another already powerful feature, the bow invocations are more elegant IMO) and tbh I like the mechanics better even where they differ. Huntsman's rain is flavorful and cool but not excessively powerful, which is the sweet spot for home brew imo (if home brew is as good as or better than published material it begins to reek of munchkinry when it is proposed by players)

[GlenSmash!]

Finally, maybe he just want to have a Bow as a ranged option and stay melee most of the time; I see no problem with that whatsoever.
Totally. This is my preference with Barbarians. Make sure they have a long bow.


One of the worst things about 5e is its pigeonholing of character concepts. There's no reason to get rid of ranged Paladins and Barbarians, it's just trying to artificially inflate character "variety" by making people pick a different class just to have a certain fighting style. I personally would just allow Barbarian abilities to work with ranged weapons. Thrown ones particularly, if nothing else.

I agree with this. I've played a lot of characters most would consider sup-optimal. Great Weapon Rangers. Barbarians with 14 strength that I never increase with an ASI.

It's very doable.

And the house rule is not a bad idea, though having Rage, and Reckless attack work with Thrown doesn't specifically help a "Barbarian with a Bow"

Ultimately, if this is mechanically what the player want's I would just say, cool make a barbarian, get a bow and you've got it. But sometimes it's the concept that matters more than the class.

I had a player character that wanted to be a Bard, until she played one. It turned out she hated how they played. Hated the abilities, and hated the spells.

After talking to her we figured out what she really wanted was a Bard concept and not a Bard class. Next session she had a Fighter with the Entertainer Background and she couldn't of been happier.

So my advice boils down to this. Help the player flesh out the concept. Present all the options to the player so the player can make an informed decision. Let the Player make the character. Then play.

[Vorpalchicken]

Pretty sure I read in sage advice that improvised weapons don't retain the heavy property,so no gwm/ss shenanigans- they were talking about a crossbow in that example, I believe.

I think a barbarian with a bow sounds fun. You just need to attack, not necessarily with Str, to keep up a rage. You don't get the damage bonus but you get the resistances and str check advantage and anything else your subclass gives you (not all those options work but many do), so it's still decent. Reckless Attack doesn't work either, but I kinda think it's cool. If the player doesn't want to multi then Str could even be Dumped!

It's not going to be as effective as a regular barbarian but you should give it a chance.

[Strangways]

Would such a character be a Barbowian?

[MeeposFire]

Would such a character be a Barbowian?

No a bowbarian silly.

That said if this was just a player that wanted to play a barbarian concept I would remind them that the barbarian class is not the only class that can show off the concept of a barbarian and so if they really want to play a barbarian concept and be a ranged user as your primary method of attack I would recommend fighter or ranger which do it so much better.

[Arelai]

I'm gonna disagree with most people on here and say the barbarian makes a fine bow user.

High dex and con gives you great AC. Danger sense with a high dex is good. Keep a short sword on hand for dex-melee attacks. You still get damage resistance from rage.

Go totem eagle and you can dash for free, and at level 6 with sharpshooter feat you can clobber people from 600ft away without your DM claiming you can't because your vision isn't good enough at that range.

You only lose reckless attack(when you're attacking with the bow-you will probably melee attack sometimes.)

[Rynjin]

I'm gonna disagree with most people on here and say the barbarian makes a fine bow user.

High dex and con gives you great AC. Danger sense with a high dex is good. Keep a short sword on hand for dex-melee attacks. You still get damage resistance from rage.

Go totem eagle and you can dash for free, and at level 6 with sharpshooter feat you can clobber people from 600ft away without your DM claiming you can't because your vision isn't good enough at that range.

You only lose reckless attack(when you're attacking with the bow-you will probably melee attack sometimes.)

You also lose two of the four basic benefits of Rage and Brutal Critical.

[N810]

Maybe get some javelins for strength based medium range damage ? :smallwink:

[Talionis]

I was wondering is there an effective way to maintain Rage to use Eagle to escape? Some item that just prick s you?

[djreynolds]

All the time?

No other weapon?

Have him take crossbow expert, as the second part of the feat will allow its use in melee

Tell the player, they should have weapons for all situations, something blunt, slashing or distance, or whatever.

[Diebo]

I'd have a lot of fun with a bowbarian.

Assuming human, 16 CON, 16 DEX, 13-14 STR to start. Sharpshooter at 1. 16 AC naked.

Go Eagle totem. Be proficient in Athletics (Outlander makes sense). I'd probably add stealth in there just to get more of the hunter feel.

You'll get 40 movement from barbarian. With Eagle level 3, every turn your bonus action allows you to move 80. And while dashing, others have disadvantage on opportunity attacks. You can run by and bust up everyone's reactions, which frees up your other players to move around.

You'll be able to get into position every turn, and with sharpshooter you'll do significant damage to lower-AC creatures.

Ok, this is where it gets fun. Even with only 13-14 STR, while raging you'll have advantage on Athletics. That, coupled with free bonus-action dash every turn, you can become an awesome grappler. Run up, grab that enemy wizard, drag them over a cliff or drag them next to your rogue or paladin for some personal attention. Heck, throw them off the cliff and land on them for that extra oomph (raging and huge hitpoint pool).

I'm thinking a Rambo-style player, solid bow damage, solid fun with grappler and speed. Sure, you could build this with a Rogue chassis and be more damaging, but the FLAVOR of doing it as a barbarian (with all the barbarian bonuses, like damage resistance, advantage on dex saves, increased movement, ability to act while surprised, advantage on initiative, huge hit point pool) makes for a very different flavor.

Level 4 probably pick up dex. Level 8 think about mobility or top off dex.

This build gets downright effective with a dip in fighter for archery style (maybe 2 for action surge) and a couple levels in rogue for expertise in athletics and a little bit of sneak attack damage. Even 1 level of each would add a lot if you feel like you aren't keeping up with the rest of your party.

I'd have fun playing this build (even w/o multi-classing).

[Vogie]

All the time?

No other weapon?

Have him take crossbow expert, as the second part of the feat will allow its use in melee

Tell the player, they should have weapons for all situations, something blunt, slashing or distance, or whatever.

Maybe he's focused on grappling on anything in melee range, and shooting everything out of it.

Myself, I'd probably let the Bowbarian use Brutal Critical effect on any attack in melee range, including a bow attack, as a pseudo-point-blank-shot equivalent, and may seriously consider letting him to pick up CQS from UA, even though he's a barbarian.

[Citan]

Longow also has Heavy property, so it works with GWM. Actualy, you can stack GWM and Sharpshooter for -10/+20 when smacking things with bow in melee. I don't know why would you, but still....

GWM requires melee attack with a weapon you're proficient with. Barbarian is proficient with longbow, even though he can't apply the proficiency when using it as improvised weapon in melee
Sharpshooter require attack with ranged weapon. It doesn't say anything about the attack needing to be ranged weapon attack.
Mate... You made my day (well, my soon to come night).

Your idea is so stupid, and so blindly reading RAW that it put in my head a ridiculously fun image of Barbarian strolling around with a whole stack of bows but no arrows...

"Hey you, wait a bit".
"Huh?"
"You are a weapon merchant, right? How much for a bow"
"Huh? What are you talking about?"
"Well, the bows... Its for sale right? Although... Were are the arrows?"
"Duh, you're stupid dude, these are my maces... To hit things. Hit, you know? You understand the word right, you are not that stupid? ... ... Although I have to admit its are kinda frail for my power".
"Wut???"

OR...

"Hey, what are you bringing all of these bows for? Isn't your thing kinda more like punching faces?"
"You'll see"...
In fight...
"SMACK"
"Hey, what did you do? Why did you just break a bow?! That's absolutely not how you use them!!"
"That's what YOU say, but it works perfectly fine with me."
"Do you realize how stupid and inefficient it is?"
"Inefficient? Well, tell this guy..." (ends the Barb while grappling the now dead enemy, with a half-bow cracked into an inform mass of brain and bones of what had been the head).

Even better...
Ranger or Rogue being stranded with two enemies flanking him while he's wielding a bow and desperately looking for arrows, while crying for help as he feels the death lurking.
Hence comes the Barb running, just as the thugs prepared to hit, snags his longbow from his friend's hands and sweeps the two enemies clean in one wide hit, violently slapping and tearing the first one's face before breaking it onto the second's jaw.

"****! What did you do? You broke my bow you ass!"
"I save your life and these are your first words? I just wasted my time, you're lucky there aren't any more bow around to crack skulls mate".
Then Barb goes away while mumbling "seriously, those guys that are never satisfied, and they don't even know how to properly use these things too..."

Damn, now I want to play it. Shame on you!:smallbiggrin:

[RickAllison]

So we were discussing the GWM+Sharpshooter with a longbow/heavy crossbow, and we agreed how we would run it. Take a heavy crossbow, slam it down around the neck of the target, and release the bowstring into their neck. Throat-chop with a crossbow!

[Citan]

So we were discussing the GWM+Sharpshooter with a longbow/heavy crossbow, and we agreed how we would run it. Take a heavy crossbow, slam it down around the neck of the target, and release the bowstring into their neck. Throat-chop with a crossbow!
Classy, efficient. 100% validation from me! :smallcool:

[Laserlight]

Mate... You made my day (well, my soon to come night).

Your idea is so stupid, and so blindly reading RAW that it put in my head a ridiculously fun image of Barbarian strolling around with a whole stack of bows but no arrows...

Just get a tougher bow. The father of Seljuq (as in "Seljuq Turks") was named Toqaq Ironbow.