Is Path of War missing anything Tome of Battle had?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Basically the title question. Are there any maneuver, stance, or class options from ToB without an equivalent in PoW?

[Cyrocloud]

The spellcasting swordsage, and Iron heart surge come to mind. That elven PrC was also pretty cool, and I don't believe there is a Pow equivalent, though that can probably be said for all the ToB PrCs.

[Elricaltovilla]

PoW:E has temporal body adjustment, which is similar enough to Iron Heart Surge, while trying to be less broken.

But we didn't try to outright copy anything in ToB for obvious reasons. You'll find a lot of similar stuff or stuff that is equivalent throughout the material, but PoW and ToB are ultimately distinct products.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

PoW:E has temporal body adjustment, which is similar enough to Iron Heart Surge, while trying to be less broken.

But we didn't try to outright copy anything in ToB for obvious reasons. You'll find a lot of similar stuff or stuff that is equivalent throughout the material, but PoW and ToB are ultimately distinct products.

Oh don’t worry, no misunderstanding here! I know you weren’t trying to copy anything. I was more asking if anyone that had played with both could point to anything major found in the earlier product. The “equivalents” line was to hedge against jokers saying “all of it” or something!

[Epic Legand]

While I love POW, it is missing a couple of things. It has no prestige class equivalent to Master of 9, So a prestige class aimed at expanding the number of disciplines, and offering a higher rate of maneuvers and stances. Also, while I feel the POW/Psyic prestige class is amazing, the Magic cross over is so weak I have never considered it a choice. Lastly, there are zero choices for an unarmed build ( Monk like damage progression) That does not force you into having an armor element. I have to take the Edgelord( considered a joke at some tables, also aimed at Katana{weapon}) to gain unarmored defenses, and then take 2 feats to make an unarmored, non weapon fighter- and STILL not get monk damage progression. Also, disciplines for Edgelord actively work poorly if your unarmed . While Swordsage offers a core choice. Even when you look at the Monk conversion...you slap on the need for a combo shield/gaultlet, so when you wake up naked in jail...your unarmed combatant is missing a major part of his AC bonus.
I consider the POW superior to TOB, but that's to be expected, you were able to look at everything they had and improve it. However, ignoring a core concept like " Deadly unarmed and unarmored fighter " while offering 6 classes, 9 prestige classes and 28 archetypes seams a big miss. Also, you guys seam to favor wisdom over the other 2 mental stats pretty clearly. Not that there are no choices, just clearly less.
I am not hating on POW, I am hating on a lack of choices for my preferred playstyle, in an area so richly supported in all movies/TV and RPG. I hate the need for multiple classes, and gobbling up all my feats to cover what I feel should be a core concept.

[zlefin]

I haven't read through all of PoW; does it have an equivalent (albeit probably more balanced) than the diamond mind saves maneuvers?

[Elricaltovilla]

I haven't read through all of PoW; does it have an equivalent (albeit probably more balanced) than the diamond mind saves maneuvers?

There are several disciplines that have maneuvers that allow you to make a skill check in place of a saving throw.

[Ellrin]

It's been a while since I actually looked at anything, but I don't recall POW having any equivalent to the TOB scroll-equivalent items for maneuvers.

I could be wrong.

I don't remember there being any other magic items introduced in any POW texts, either.

[zlefin]

There are several disciplines that have maneuvers that allow you to make a skill check in place of a saving throw.

can you name a few so that I can look them up?

[Swaoeaeieu]

While I love POW, it is missing a couple of things. It has no prestige class equivalent to Master of 9, So a prestige class aimed at expanding the number of disciplines, and offering a higher rate of maneuvers and stances. Also, while I feel the POW/Psyic prestige class is amazing, the Magic cross over is so weak I have never considered it a choice. Lastly, there are zero choices for an unarmed build ( Monk like damage progression) That does not force you into having an armor element. I have to take the Edgelord( considered a joke at some tables, also aimed at Katana{weapon}) to gain unarmored defenses, and then take 2 feats to make an unarmored, non weapon fighter- and STILL not get monk damage progression. Also, disciplines for Edgelord actively work poorly if your unarmed . While Swordsage offers a core choice. Even when you look at the Monk conversion...you slap on the need for a combo shield/gaultlet, so when you wake up naked in jail...your unarmed combatant is missing a major part of his AC bonus.
I consider the POW superior to TOB, but that's to be expected, you were able to look at everything they had and improve it. However, ignoring a core concept like " Deadly unarmed and unarmored fighter " while offering 6 classes, 9 prestige classes and 28 archetypes seams a big miss. Also, you guys seam to favor wisdom over the other 2 mental stats pretty clearly. Not that there are no choices, just clearly less.
I am not hating on POW, I am hating on a lack of choices for my preferred playstyle, in an area so richly supported in all movies/TV and RPG. I hate the need for multiple classes, and gobbling up all my feats to cover what I feel should be a core concept.

isnt there the steelfist commando? or the sanguinist medic? fools errand disciplin.
maybe even a monk archetype to add maneuvers (not sure on that one)
broken blades whole description is even about no weapon combat.

honestly i think unarmed warrior is much more doable with POW then TOB :P

[exelsisxax]

While I love POW, it is missing a couple of things. It has no prestige class equivalent to Master of 9, So a prestige class aimed at expanding the number of disciplines, and offering a higher rate of maneuvers and stances. Also, while I feel the POW/Psyic prestige class is amazing, the Magic cross over is so weak I have never considered it a choice. Lastly, there are zero choices for an unarmed build ( Monk like damage progression) That does not force you into having an armor element. I have to take the Edgelord( considered a joke at some tables, also aimed at Katana{weapon}) to gain unarmored defenses, and then take 2 feats to make an unarmored, non weapon fighter- and STILL not get monk damage progression. Also, disciplines for Edgelord actively work poorly if your unarmed . While Swordsage offers a core choice. Even when you look at the Monk conversion...you slap on the need for a combo shield/gaultlet, so when you wake up naked in jail...your unarmed combatant is missing a major part of his AC bonus.
I consider the POW superior to TOB, but that's to be expected, you were able to look at everything they had and improve it. However, ignoring a core concept like " Deadly unarmed and unarmored fighter " while offering 6 classes, 9 prestige classes and 28 archetypes seams a big miss. Also, you guys seam to favor wisdom over the other 2 mental stats pretty clearly. Not that there are no choices, just clearly less.
I am not hating on POW, I am hating on a lack of choices for my preferred playstyle, in an area so richly supported in all movies/TV and RPG. I hate the need for multiple classes, and gobbling up all my feats to cover what I feel should be a core concept.

Did you actually read PoW? There's unarmed archetypes for both warlord and mystic, stalker can get improved unarmed at level 1 as a bonus feat, and there's literally a PoW monk archetype. I don't see how it's so complicated to do a thing when there's 4 dead simple ways of doing that exact thing, with no prerequisites, multiclassing, or even feats required.

[legomaster00156]

Not to mention the Greater Unarmed Strike feat introduced in the first book.

[Elricaltovilla]

Did you actually read PoW? There's unarmed archetypes for both warlord and mystic, stalker can get improved unarmed at level 1 as a bonus feat, and there's literally a PoW monk archetype. I don't see how it's so complicated to do a thing when there's 4 dead simple ways of doing that exact thing, with no prerequisites, multiclassing, or even feats required.

The complaint is about the lack of unarmed and unarmored warriors. As in there's nobody who gets a bonus to AC that makes up for choosing to run around buck naked.

Of course, the MoSF still has all the normal Monk defensive bonuses, they just also get a shield bonus on top of it. So the Monk archetype can handle being unarmored about as well as a regular Monk.

[Epic Legand]

Did I read the POW? Did you read my post ?
I was asking about a martial class that did monk unarmed damage progression, and got a stat bonus to AC, and did not require armor or weapons.

MoTSF A monk of the silver fist deals more damage with his gauntlet attacks than a normal person would, as shown below... In other words, wake up naked in jail ( Happens a LOT in our games sadly) and your doing 1-3 base damage, even at 20th level...or you spent more resources to still do less then a monk ( teir 5). Also, not really a martial class, with very poor progression.

steelfist commando no stat added to AC

Medic No Stat bonus to AC

Stalker no monk damage progression, no stat to AC

Greater Unarmed Strike...2 feats in to do less then a monk.

Rather then address the way YOU would play it, and pretending that's what I asked about, keep in mind the OP is " Is there anything MISSING? I pointed out a simple unarmored and unarmed martial that's equal to the monk plus maneuvers. So far I see some of you dismissing me without reading my post, while accusing me of not reading. STILL looking for single class(real) martial progression, monk unarmed damage and stat to AC. Am I missing anything?
ALSO, please don't suggest it's unreasonable...we are talking about characters who rewind time, run on air and Teleport at will.

[torrasque666]

The mystic archetype Aurora soul does get its Initiation modifier to its AC, as well as its Damage on unarmed strikes, which is frankly better than just getting bigger dice. Given its abilities to use Martial Maneuvers it is frequently putting out MORE dice than a monk would.

[Epic Legand]

Your right, the Aurora Soul does fill the basics. I have never considered it because I cannot stand the release/random factor for readied maneuvers, add to that, it is wisdom based ( of course). But I guess it does cover the basics. I stand corrected. I still hope for more material. I was hoping to build a martial artist who does not exhibit tons of clearly magical effects. There really no way to make a mystic like that. However, I never mentioned this earlier.

[legomaster00156]

The monk also has plenty of clearly supernatural abilities. :smallconfused:

[Epic Legand]

I don't like playing monks. I like playing martial artists who are effective. POW offers far more then a Monk...but it sucks trying to build one who is not weapon or armor dependent. You have to use major gymnastics to line up the right maneuvers, feats and class progression to make it happen. I just felt, and still do, that it should not be that hard to line up such a common trope. The not magical , not item dependent guy.

[Elricaltovilla]

The nature of the game itself precludes the existence of a non-item dependent character. Unless you're playing a gestalt Soulknife//Aegis in a game with automatic bonus progression rules, you need items to function.

If you don't want to wear armor, then you buy bracers of armor, that's what they're for. Adding STAT to AC doesn't make up for armor. It either forces you to be MADer than you need to be, leaving you with less AC bonus than you'd get from armor anyway, or it stacks with whatever armor bonus you can squeeze out of your equipment and then you're just encouraged to add armor anyway for a cheap AC boost.

The MoSF functions just fine without armor or gauntlets if you take one feat (Greater Unarmed Strike), as all you lose is a shield bonus to AC without your gauntlets and a negligible amount of damage. The bonus damage you get from strikes, boosts and stances, on top of your feats, vastly outpaces the damage bonus you get from being a monk. A 20th level monk's damage die is 2d10, which is an average of 11 points of damage. Or the equivalent of what you'd get from power attack at level 14, 12th if you're two handing your weapon.

[Epic Legand]

Hay If you don't see it, then your not going to cover it. The same as DSP loves wisdom, in both races and classes. I can always home brew, but so much tougher then presenting from a respected company. The monk variant was presented so that games that felt overwhelmed by POW could offer some of the flavor for the regular classes. I was never looking to be equal to the monk, If that was the goal, I would just play a monk. You asked if there was something missing, I pointed out what I felt was a gap. Thank you for offering what you have, I enjoy both POW and expanded greatly.

[bahamut920]

I just want to point out that "unarmed and unarmored" was not something the Tome of Battle officially covered, either. Yes, there was one line in the Adaptation section of the Swordsage that suggested swapping the Swordsage weapon and armor proficiencies with the monk's and giving it the monk class's AC bonus, but that was just a suggested houserule and you could just as easily do the same with the Stalker. I'm certain nobody considers the Arcane Swordsage an official ACF/variant just because it got a similar mention in the book.

[Swaoeaeieu]

something TOB had was legendary weapons that were linked to the disciplines (i think)
would be cool to have some kind of weapons of legacy for the PoW styles. I know there is a bunch of overlap. but the legendary weapons in steelforge could maybe fit some of these in?

[Vhaidara]

It's also worth noting that ToB did NOT support the unarmored warrior at all, since Swordsage AC bonus required light armor.

Also, swordsage was by far the most supernatural class in ToB. And was Wisdom based. So your complaints seem to be complete unrelated to the topic of this thread, namely "Is PoW missing anything ToB had?". Since ToB's only unarmed fighter was a highly supernatural, armored, Wisdom based class.

[gkathellar]

One noteworthy difference is the far greater number of passive numerical buffs (which ToB mostly eschewed) and the generally lower number of utility maneuvers. FWIW.

[bahamut920]

It's also worth noting that ToB did NOT support the unarmored warrior at all, since Swordsage AC bonus required light armor.

Also, swordsage was by far the most supernatural class in ToB. And was Wisdom based. So your complaints seem to be complete unrelated to the topic of this thread, namely "Is PoW missing anything ToB had?". Since ToB's only unarmed fighter was a highly supernatural, armored, Wisdom based class.
The line in the Adaptation section of the Swordsage class description that Epic Legand is pointing to in his argument that "ToB let me do this" did suggest replacing the Swordsage's AC bonus with the monk's, as well as giving it IUS and the monk's unarmed damage IIRC. And just like the Swordsage giving x6 skill points at 1st level, the AC bonus not working unarmored is generally considered to be a typo/unintentional omission, considering all similar light armor-limited class features in 3.5 function when the user is unarmored as well, such as evasion and fast movement.

[Kitsuneymg]

isnt there the steelfist commando? or the sanguinist medic? fools errand disciplin.
maybe even a monk archetype to add maneuvers (not sure on that one)
broken blades whole description is even about no weapon combat.

honestly i think unarmed warrior is much more doable with POW then TOB :P

There is a monk. Monk of the Silver Fist gets Eternal Guardian (Intimidate), Iron Tortoise(Bluff), and Mithral Current(Perform: Dance). So it's even more MAD than a monk with 3 charisma based disciplines. It also doesn't get either of the two unarmed-ish ones (Broken Blade, Fool's Errand). It also stacks with very few archetypes (including unchained). IMO, it's an incredibly poorly thought out archetype that (more than any other) seems like someone was trying to make a class for a specific character.

But the Brawler has an archetype and it's competent. It's in the Fool's Errand pdf.

[Swaoeaeieu]

There is a monk. Monk of the Silver Fist gets Eternal Guardian (Intimidate), Iron Tortoise(Bluff), and Mithral Current(Perform: Dance). So it's even more MAD than a monk with 3 charisma based disciplines. It also doesn't get either of the two unarmed-ish ones (Broken Blade, Fool's Errand). It also stacks with very few archetypes (including unchained). IMO, it's an incredibly poorly thought out archetype that (more than any other) seems like someone was trying to make a class for a specific character.

But the Brawler has an archetype and it's competent. It's in the Fool's Errand pdf.

you can swap out disciplines using one talen and traditions. fools errand is available to everyone for the low price of acces to another discipline.
no comment on the quality of the archetype itself.

[gkathellar]

Oh, actually, Fool's Errand itself is worth mentioning for being a discipline that "feels" like playing a fighter or monk. This is distinctly absent from ToB.

[Vhaidara]

There is a monk. Monk of the Silver Fist gets Eternal Guardian (Intimidate), Iron Tortoise(Bluff), and Mithral Current(Perform: Dance). So it's even more MAD than a monk with 3 charisma based disciplines. It also doesn't get either of the two unarmed-ish ones (Broken Blade, Fool's Errand). It also stacks with very few archetypes (including unchained). IMO, it's an incredibly poorly thought out archetype that (more than any other) seems like someone was trying to make a class for a specific character.

But the Brawler has an archetype and it's competent. It's in the Fool's Errand pdf.

Iron Tortoise doesn't even use Bluff once in the entire discipline, Eternal Guardian has a small number of intimidate based maneuvers (easily avoidable), and Mithral Current likewise can easily be done without perform (dance) (as someone who is playing a 5 Cha Myrmidon Fighter focused on Mithral Current). Sure the MC maneuvers that use dance are good, but far from mandatory. So having 3 Cha based disciplines is kind of a complete strawman of an argument.

As has been mentioned, ANYONE can make a free swap for Fool's Errand. And anyone can take a trait to swap a discipline.

[Elricaltovilla]

Don't forget that Agile Dancer let's you use DEX instead of CHA for Perform (dance).

[Epic Legand]

Responding to the suggestion that the swordsage required armor. The general consensus is that was a typo, the same as the typo about skill points. Also, the swordsage was wisdom based, but it was an easier sell to a DM to use Kung Fu Genius on a clear monk variant. With about 4 feats offering the same thing in 3.5 not to hard. While Pathfinder does not really offer that as a choice. I notice no one is disputing my statement about a clear preface for wisdom based classes and races. I also felt that was lacking in TOB. One can love a product, and still want it to be better, or offer more choices. Pathfinder is ALL about choices, and also clearly wants you to stay single class. Archtypes are like prestige classes from level 1. I responded to the thread with a suggestion about an area I felt was not covered well, and that I would like to see better developed. This does not mean I hate DSP, or the systems they have developed. But I am frustrated at so many of you who insist on reading 1/2 my statements and responding. Monk of the silver fist needs a gauntlet or does 1D3, also not a real martial character. If you want to play at the wizard level, and people keep saying "But bard offers arcane"....It's frustrating. Brawler, not a full martial character, no stat to AC.

The Aurora Soul has been pointed out to me, and it does cover most of the basics. Though, I hate it. Wisdom based, random known maneuvers, magical, start with 2, and only acquire a few more by the time combat is over.

While I agree many of the disciplines in the Swordsage list were magical. You had to pick a few to support, it was easy to build a full functioning character, and skip the clearly magical powers. While I love the traits that allow you to swap a discipline, or the tradition, Traditions are not accepted at some tables ( roleplaying cost for a mechanical reward is a nono to some) I would also point out many DMs are reluctant to have to learn a new system, and more so when you pile on extra. Name the tradition that allows you to get Broken blade, and would work in the all Drow underdark campaign ? Worse when you have to use your limited resources to make a concept work. Examples being the edgelord having to twist and turn to gain broken blade or fools errand ( read spend one of your 2 traits) then spending 2 feats to gain less then monk damage. I am not exactly chaseing the most powerful choices here. Unarmed is bad crit range, bad crit multiple. Level one choices for 99% of melee guys are 2D6/19-20/2X while the unarmed guys has to struggle for a while to get there. The same guy with the greatsword does not need to waste all his feats to use the greatsword. This is not me asking for a power up, I am pointing out a common trope of the unarmed guy who can cut it in the world of guns, spells or battle axes is not well supported by the existing long list of classes and archtypes. Since I do not work at DSP, and they clearly do not see this as a problem that needs solving, I will have to continue to do class acrobatics or get some DM to houserule stuff. Not exactly a world crushing issue.

[Ellrin]

Honestly you may as well take your complaints up with WotC, because 3e and its derivatives have NEVER been kind to unarmed combatants. On top of that, it sounds like you have something extremely specific in mind, so you might as well work with your DM to homebrew it, because it seems you aren't going to be satisfied with anything that doesn't match all of your criteria without any multiclassing. It really shouldn't be that difficult to homebrew, either, just make an archetype for a base initiating class you otherwise like the looks of.

[Cyrocloud]

I doubt it is optimal but Brutal Slayer kind of does what you are asking with it getting built in NA and Str to armor, even if it replaces Dex, even multiclassing into into Steelfist Commando would not be too bad with that trait that gives 2 IL.

[Epic Legand]

Ellrin, I would politely beg to differ. Yes As I Already Said, I can just homebrew. I disagree that a class or archtype that offers a solid way to be a non item dependent, unarmed full martial class is super narrow focused. Countless movies, TV shows, and books showcase such people. I do agree that the idea has never been well supported, but the whole point of the thread was " what else could we include?"...Not " Hay, this does 1/3 of what your looking for"
Cryocloud, Brutal Slayer does not offer unarmed, and replacing dex with 1/2 of strength is actually worse in most cases. Yes I know I can multiclass, and use up my traits to make up for lost levels, and use my feats to get unarmed and superior unarmed ( still doing less then a monk or a 1st level fighter with a greatsword). I am hoping to not have to do gymnastics to twist and turn to cover a basic idea. I responded to the OP because I hoped they might see a untouched path. When a Sorcerer wakes up naked in jail...he is still teir 2. The Wizard, the Psion the Arcainist, the Witch, Sorcerer and the Psychic all are variants on one of the best chassis. All can wake up naked and still function at near peek ( Spell mastery helps the Wizard ). POW is supposed to help martials not be left out of the game. Maybe at teir 3 instead of 1 or 2, but still viable. This post was clearly looking for ideas to develop, I suggested one, they did not like it.

[Ellrin]

Ellrin, I would politely beg to differ. Yes As I Already Said, I can just homebrew. I disagree that a class or archtype that offers a solid way to be a non item dependent, unarmed full martial class is super narrow focused. Countless movies, TV shows, and books showcase such people. I do agree that the idea has never been well supported, but the whole point of the thread was " what else could we include?"...Not " Hay, this does 1/3 of what your looking for"

It may not be an especially niche trope, but your interpretation of it is plenty niche. As far as I can tell you're asking for pretty nearly every core monk class feature with 9th level maneuvers on top of it. You're not going to find that outside of homebrew or multiclassing. Sorry, but nobody's published a 1-20 class that completely matches what you want.

And for reference, there isn't a single class that isn't at least partially item-dependent. WBL is such a massive part of the assumed strength of a 3.x character that anybody is crippled without access to their stuff—although yes, some classes (both mundane and magical) fare worse than others.

[ghanjrho]

It may not be an especially niche trope, but your interpretation of it is plenty niche. As far as I can tell you're asking for pretty nearly every core monk class feature with 9th level maneuvers on top of it. You're not going to find that outside of homebrew or multiclassing. Sorry, but nobody's published a 1-20 class that completely matches what you want.

And for reference, there isn't a single class that isn't at least partially item-dependent. WBL is such a massive part of the assumed strength of a 3.x character that anybody is crippled without access to their stuff—although yes, some classes (both mundane and magical) fare worse than others.

Let's be fair. He's not asking for every core monk class feature. He just wants:
The monk unarmed damage table (specifically)
Mental-stat-to-AC in place of armor
Full BAB
INT or CHA dependency
9th level maneuvers
No supernatural class features
And independence from magic items. So just the good monk class features, plus a bunch of other stuff. Also, access to full WBL is worth two entire increments of CR (-1 for NPC wealth, -2 for no or starting wealth).

[BearonVonMu]

One thing that I missed from ToB was the Aura of Chaos. It was a stance that made all of your damage dice explode.
Exploding dice is not something I've seen often in Pathfinder or 3.5, and it was well worth the three feats it took to get in my opinion.
The other thing was the Superior Unarmed Strike feat. I felt that it helped monk-like characters to get one notch closer to "competitive" damage-wise.

[exelsisxax]

One thing that I missed from ToB was the Aura of Chaos. It was a stance that made all of your damage dice explode.
Exploding dice is not something I've seen often in Pathfinder or 3.5, and it was well worth the three feats it took to get in my opinion.
The other thing was the Superior Unarmed Strike feat. I felt that it helped monk-like characters to get one notch closer to "competitive" damage-wise.

Aura of chaos isn't coming back because of how easily exploitable it was. Ever hear of the d2 crusader?

PoW's version is greater unarmed strike, effectively adding 4 levels of monk unarmed damage scaling.

[digiman619]

One thing that I missed from ToB was the Aura of Chaos. It was a stance that made all of your damage dice explode.Exploding dice is not something I've seen often in Pathfinder or 3.5, and it was well worth the three feats it took to get in my opinion.The other thing was the Superior Unarmed Strike feat. I felt that it helped monk-like characters to get one notch closer to "competitive" damage-wise.
Aura of chaos isn't coming back because of how easily exploitable it was. Ever hear of the d2 crusader?PoW's version is greater unarmed strike, effectively adding 4 levels of monk unarmed damage scaling.
Thanks to the errata, it also increases non-monk/brawler unarmed damage to 1d8 (size notwithstanding), and it increases to 1d10 at 10th.

[Epic Legand]

...I never said anything about full BAB, I also never said no need for items, I said not ITEM DEPENDENT. Also, a Sorcerer waking up in jail might not have his +4 cloak of Chr, but hes still like 90%+ effective, Still teir 2. Also, Lets not pretend passing the bar for monk is hard. Its teir FIVE. The entirety of TOB and POW is about correcting the problem of martials sucking so bad compared to casters. Which it does in both cases overshadow the monk by leaps and bounds. When I talked about monk unarmed damage, I did feel that the Aurora Soul did cover that because they could add initiation mod to damage ( meaning not necessarily less then the monk ). Superior unarmed does help close the gap. It also once again costs 2 feats to do less then the monk, and still leaves you with the worst choices in the game for crit range, crit mult or cost to increase magic bonus.

[MilleniaAntares]

It's been a while since I actually looked at anything, but I don't recall POW having any equivalent to the TOB scroll-equivalent items for maneuvers.

I could be wrong.

I don't remember there being any other magic items introduced in any POW texts, either.
None of the PoW texts included magic items, but the Steelforged book (I think?) has maneuver-granting potions.

However, there is no equivalent to the items that permanently grant you +1 maneuver of a specific school.

[ChrisAsmadi]

Let's be fair. He's not asking for every core monk class feature. He just wants:
The monk unarmed damage table (specifically)
Mental-stat-to-AC in place of armor
Full BAB
INT or CHA dependency
9th level maneuvers
No supernatural class features
And independence from magic items. So just the good monk class features, plus a bunch of other stuff. Also, access to full WBL is worth two entire increments of CR (-1 for NPC wealth, -2 for no or starting wealth).

You can manage most of this as a Steelfist Commando Warlord with Greater Unarmed Strike, you'd just need to convince your DM to let you use the Spheres of Power Rogue Talent, Prescient Dodger (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rogue-talents).


...I never said anything about full BAB, I also never said no need for items, I said not ITEM DEPENDENT. Also, a Sorcerer waking up in jail might not have his +4 cloak of Chr, but hes still like 90%+ effective, Still teir 2. Also, Lets not pretend passing the bar for monk is hard. Its teir FIVE. The entirety of TOB and POW is about correcting the problem of martials sucking so bad compared to casters. Which it does in both cases overshadow the monk by leaps and bounds. When I talked about monk unarmed damage, I did feel that the Aurora Soul did cover that because they could add initiation mod to damage ( meaning not necessarily less then the monk ). Superior unarmed does help close the gap. It also once again costs 2 feats to do less then the monk, and still leaves you with the worst choices in the game for crit range, crit mult or cost to increase magic bonus.

Maybe ask your DM to use Automatic Bonus Progression? Then you can spend your cash on actually interesting items, to boot.

[Elricaltovilla]

None of the PoW texts included magic items, but the Steelforged book (I think?) has maneuver-granting potions.

However, there is no equivalent to the items that permanently grant you +1 maneuver of a specific school.

Martial Elixirs from Steelforge 2 (I think). Each one gives you a single use strike, boost and counter from one Discipline for an encounter. They're pretty good.

[n00b17]

Coming back to the original question:

ToB had a better variety of ranged options. Although PoW has two disciplines devoted to range (plus elemental flux), almost all the ToB maneuvers could be used as either melee or ranged. That made it easy to build ranged characters into a variety of roles by pulling from different disciplines, whereas in PoW most ranged characters have a fairly limited pool of maneuvers to draw from.

The worst offender imo is Mithral Current, which has the perfect flavor for a gunslinger(all about quickdraw, not to mention that gunslingers were westernizations of stories about rogue samurai), but cannot be used to build a ranged character.

I love the ranged options that PoW presents, but I wish it didn't feel the need to restrict attack types (unless there's a balance concern I'm missing).

[torrasque666]

ToB had a better variety of ranged options. Although PoW has two disciplines devoted to range (plus elemental flux), almost all the ToB maneuvers could be used as either melee or ranged. That made it easy to build ranged characters into a variety of roles by pulling from different disciplines, whereas in PoW most ranged characters have a fairly limited pool of maneuvers to draw from.

Almost all? You did notice that almost all the maneuvers in the Tome of Battle have the entry "Range: Melee Attack" right? Aside from boosts and stances.

[bahamut920]

Yeah, the best way to build a ranged ToB character was to either focus on boosts, stances, and counters, or to go with Bloodstorm Blade, which was a specific thrown weapon PrC. Very few strikes allowed you to use ranged attacks, and most of them were simply, "make a full attack plus this happens". Time stands still doesn't restrict the type of attacks you can make with your two full attacks, and neither does pouncing charge, technically (although I forget if charging itself restricts you to melee). Flashing sun, another "full attack plus" strike, does restrict you to melee attacks, however. You were better off using assassin's stance for sneak attack and dancing or raging mongoose for extra attacks and full attacking rather than using strikes. Other than that, your best ranged options were the few Desert Wind strikes that had you shooting fire and shadow garrote which was precision damage. PoW has two specifically ranged-focused disciplines, at least, and I'm pretty sure at least a few others have ranged options.

[n00b17]

Huh, that's weird. I usually just look it up on the site-that-must-not-be-named, which doesn't list any range restrictions. Nevermind then

[MesiDoomstalker]

A lot of PoW Strikes can be used with Ranged weapons. Pretty much any that don't have a melee or ranged specific fluff to it can be used with either. Though Mithral Currant incompatibility with Gunslinging is unfortunate.

[bahamut920]

Huh, that's weird. I usually just look it up on the site-that-must-not-be-named, which doesn't list any range restrictions. Nevermind then
The fact that two out of the three classes in the book only had proficiency with simple weapons and martial melee weapons should have tipped you off that the book did not favor ranged combat.

[Epic Legand]

ChrisAsmadi, I like the suggestion, but In strongly suppect getting 2 different 3ed party's materials approval will be tough. Put another way, if YOU were DM, would you allow a feat to equal +one mental stats PLUS 1 per 4 levels? Keep in mind...Dodge is considered a feat.

[ChrisAsmadi]

ChrisAsmadi, I like the suggestion, but In strongly suppect getting 2 different 3ed party's materials approval will be tough. Put another way, if YOU were DM, would you allow a feat to equal +one mental stats PLUS 1 per 4 levels? Keep in mind...Dodge is considered a feat.

It's not a feat, it's a Rogue Talent. And it basically just gives Rogues a Monk's AC bonus class feature. The only place it might ever be an issue is some weird stacking issue or some edge case where more than a few classes less bad than Rogues get access to Rogue Talents and one of them might combo too well with it.

Also I, personally, don't think limiting sources is the way to a balanced game (because there's plenty of high power stuff in the Core book, so it doesn't actually make the game balanced, it makes Martials boring and bad) - the way to a balanced game is for a group to have a mature session 0 and make characters at roughly the same power level with their own niches.

[BearonVonMu]

Aura of chaos isn't coming back because of how easily exploitable it was. Ever hear of the d2 crusader?


Yes, I am familiar with that little abusive trick. Just because something has the possibility of being horribly terribly abused doesn't necessarily demand that it be removed from the game in my mind.
It was enough to be tossing my ten or sixteen dice and tacking on the extra three or four re-rolls. Perhaps it reminded me of other, older games like L5R.
To be fair, though, Pathfinder is still full of hilariously exploitable tricks.