[3.5] Gish Build Review

[AnimeTheCat]

hey everyone, a friend asked me to look at his build and when I did I talked to him about some changes, directed him to the gish handbook, and helped him review it again. I think it's pretty good at this point. certainly playable indefinitely at the power level his game will be at, and overall pretty fun looking build.

The concept is very loosely based on Major Armstrong from Full Metal Alchemist in the sense that the character is a "Magical" fist fighter* (*fists meaning hand to hand in this case). Again, VERY loosely based on Major Armstrong.


Race: Neanderthal (+2 Str/Con, -2 Dex/Int)
Stats: Str 16/Dex 12/Con 16/Int 8/Wis 8/Cha 14
Class: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4
Feats: (No Flaws Allowed) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Throwing Axe (Battle Sorcerer), Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatclub (Stalwart Sorcerer), Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Draconic Heritage (Red) (Level 1), Draconic Claws (Level 3)
Equipment: Greatclub, 2x Throwing Axes, 2x Masterwork Spiked Gauntlets, +1 Mithral Breastplate, Sling (30 Bullets)
Spells Known:

0th Level (5): Detect Magic, Read Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Prestidigitation

1st Level (2): Fist of Stone, Shield

2nd Level (1): Mirror Image
As he is only getting one skill point per level, he'll just be keeping concentration maxed. In this case it will be a 10 at level 4. The DM waived the Knoweldge (Arcana) 1 skill requirement for Stalwart Sorcerer.


The concept is to move into melee combat and cast shield (with a successful concentration check) and then get a swift claw attack (Draconic Claws), next round cast fist of stone and get a *Better* swift claw attack (draconic Claws), then proceed to full attack as often as possible with a fist (with a +6 strength added), Two Claws (One with +6 Strength), and a slam (with again, +6 strength). The fist will get full BAB, the secondary natural ones will get the -5 penalty. He plans on taking multiattack and treat this as his improvised two weapon fighting technique. His character is coining it the "Fist and Claw Technique" of the northern Red Dragon Clan (He's a simple character... and a neanderthal... simple names for things are probably for the best).

You'll probably note that he didn't purchase his literacy back so he's an illiterate sorcerer which sounds fun to me. He has considered going in to abjurant champion, but it doesn't really fit what he's wanting to do thematically. He is inclined however to say "Screw the fluff, I like my crunch" and go abjurant champion anyway at level 7, but he also wants more draconic feats because they are neat and in the level of play he's in, its ok for him not to be overly optimized, he can sacrifice optimization for "neat things".

Some feats he's looking at (over time in no particular order) are Draconic Breath, Draconic Skin, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor, Multi-attack, and improved multi-attack. Again, he knows these aren't optimal, but they're never really used and he thinks it would be fun to use them since he can.

Could the Playground take a look at what already exists. I'm happy with it, He's happy with it. We're both just wondering if we missed something when we reviewed it. Also, just broad suggestions on future progression. He's more than happy to just be a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer for the whole game as there's no real defined game length or level limit.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to include that I know his character is over standard WBL, the DM was gracious an allowed leaniency for his character as he is new in the group and the group overall is over WBL. The equipment is all good. I know a +1 Mithral Breastplate takes up roughly 5200 of the 5400 gold for level 4 characters.

[Blue Jay]

...then proceed to full attack as often as possible with a fist (with a +6 strength added), Two Claws (One with +6 Strength), and a slam (with again, +6 strength). The fist will get full BAB, the secondary natural ones will get the -5 penalty. He plans on taking multiattack and treat this as his improvised two weapon fighting technique...

Multiattackers are fun in low-level games, because you get to roll lots of dice and blenderize bad guys. They're pretty front-loaded though: you get lots of cool stuff up-front, but it becomes more difficult to advance them beyond that point because the attack limits on natural weapons are pretty strict. He'll need to use things like haste or the Whirling Frenzy rage variant to get extra attacks with his natural weapons: otherwise, he's stuck with two claws per round for his whole career.

The biggest problem I see with the build is that you can't make an unarmed strike and a natural attack with the same limb in the same round (even with Multiattack or Multi-Weapon Fighting). For example, look at the "full attack" line from the sahuagin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sahuagin.htm) stat block in the SRD:

Trident +4 melee (1d8+3) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1) or 2 talons +4 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1)...
"Trident and bite" or "talons and bite"; but not "trident and talons and bite." Note that the trident is wielded in two hands (the damage has 1.5 x Str mod): the sahuagin could also wield a trident one-handed, in which case his full attack would be "trident and 1 talon and bite."

Unarmed strikes occupy a weird "gray area" between natural and manufactured weapons, but they still follow the same basic principle: an attack with a hand "occupies" that hand, which makes that hand unavailable to also deliver natural attacks.

So, by RAW, here's what this character's full attack options are:

Unarmed Strike (with +6 Str) + Claw (-5 for secondary)
Claw (with +6 Str) + Claw (neither counts as seconday)
Slam (with +6 Str) + Claw (-5 for secondary)

There are probably some other combinations that are allowed, but the basic gist is that he'll only get 2 attacks per round, because he only has two arms. At later levels, he can make iterative attacks with his unarmed strike, just as if it were a manufactured weapon, so he could get a full attack up to something like "unarmed +12/+7/+2 and claw +7" (assuming he can get to BAB +12); and if he had monk levels, he could gain the ability to make unarmed strikes with body parts other than his fist (though he wouldn't get the benefits of fist of stone if he wasn't using his fist).

Curiously, also note that the fist of stone spell doesn't let him count his Str as +6 for damage rolls: it only applies to attack rolls, grapple checks and Str checks to break objects. It specifically says his improved Str score applies to Slam damage, but by RAW, it won't apply to any other damage rolls. Personally, I'd house-rule that limit away though, because it makes no sense and probably wasn't what the designers intended. I'd personally also let the spell apply to both arms, and not just to one fist, which would let you gain the benefits with elbow-based unarmed strikes and such.

Anyway, it's a fun idea, and I've always wanted to play a bit with fist of stone: I really like the flavor of that spell.

[AnimeTheCat]

Multiattackers are fun in low-level games, because you get to roll lots of dice and blenderize bad guys. They're pretty front-loaded though: you get lots of cool stuff up-front, but it becomes more difficult to advance them beyond that point because the attack limits on natural weapons are pretty strict. He'll need to use things like haste or the Whirling Frenzy rage variant to get extra attacks with his natural weapons: otherwise, he's stuck with two claws per round for his whole career.

He's a stalwart battle sorcerer that will be getting the majority of his damage boosts from spells and similar. Also, the rest of the party is a rogue, healer, fighter, wu-jen so I'm doubtful that the party will be facing trials that are too tough.

Edit: I'm sure haste is going to be the first spell he picks up for level 3.


The biggest problem I see with the build is that you can't make an unarmed strike and a natural attack with the same limb in the same round (even with Multiattack or Multi-Weapon Fighting). For example, look at the "full attack" line from the sahuagin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sahuagin.htm) stat block in the SRD:

"Trident and bite" or "talons and bite"; but not "trident and talons and bite." Note that the trident is wielded in two hands (the damage has 1.5 x Str mod): the sahuagin could also wield a trident one-handed, in which case his full attack would be "trident and 1 talon and bite."

Unarmed strikes occupy a weird "gray area" between natural and manufactured weapons, but they still follow the same basic principle: an attack with a hand "occupies" that hand, which makes that hand unavailable to also deliver natural attacks.

So, by RAW, here's what this character's full attack options are:

Unarmed Strike (with +6 Str) + Claw (-5 for secondary)
Claw (with +6 Str) + Claw (neither counts as seconday)
Slam (with +6 Str) + Claw (-5 for secondary)

There are probably some other combinations that are allowed, but the basic gist is that he'll only get 2 attacks per round, because he only has two arms. At later levels, he can make iterative attacks with his unarmed strike, just as if it were a manufactured weapon, so he could get a full attack up to something like "unarmed +12/+7/+2 and claw +7" (assuming he can get to BAB +12); and if he had monk levels, he could gain the ability to make unarmed strikes with body parts other than his fist (though he wouldn't get the benefits of fist of stone if he wasn't using his fist).

So, I thought this at the same time, but after talking to him and his DM, his DM says something along the lines of spiked gauntlets being light weapons that don't actually require you to hold anything so you're mixing a manufactured weapon with your claws which is possible as there's nothing to prevent your claws from being used in the appropriate way. So, the Spiked gauntlet makes his attack considered armed, not unarmed, and then he mixes that with his natural secondary attacks. It makes sense to me and it appears he's cleared that with his DM too so it sounds good to me.


Curiously, also note that the fist of stone spell doesn't let him count his Str as +6 for damage rolls: it only applies to attack rolls, grapple checks and Str checks to break objects. It specifically says his improved Str score applies to Slam damage, but by RAW, it won't apply to any other damage rolls. Personally, I'd house-rule that limit away though, because it makes no sense and probably wasn't what they designers intended. I'd personally also let the spell apply to both arms, and not just to one fist, which would let you gain the benefits with elbow-based unarmed strikes and such.

Anyway, it's a fun idea, and I've always wanted to play a bit with fist of stone: I really like the flavor of that spell.

I thought the same thing, as there is a difference between the complete arcane spell description ("+6 enhancement bonus to strength for attacks, grapples....") and the Spell Compendium spell description ("+6 enhancement bonus to strength for attack rolls, grapples...."). But then later in the description when it describes the slam attack both say "1d6+your new strength modifier". One school of thought is that it only applies to the slam damage (which is fine) and another school of thought is that it's a typo and it applies to all damage, or yet another is that it's a typo and it doesn't even apply to the slam damage. No matter what, it's a +3 to hit which helps offset the -5 to hit for the secondaries.

From what I understand from the DM (I "trained" her so to speak), the spell affects one hand (Fist of Stone, not Fists of stone) but it affects all actions with that hand (+6 strength to attack and damage, as well as grapple, etc.). I think the overall though process is something along the lines of:

Cast fist of stone on non-dominant hand, make claw attack as swift action with that hand.
Next round, punch with spiked gauntlet in dominant hand (1d4+3), Claw with non-dominant hand (1d6+3), claw with dominant hand (1d6+1), Slam with non-dominant hand (1d6+3).

That's my understanding at least. I think it's cool and it's not overly powerful either. neat though.

[Blue Jay]

So, I thought this at the same time, but after talking to him and his DM, his DM says something along the lines of spiked gauntlets being light weapons that don't actually require you to hold anything so you're mixing a manufactured weapon with your claws which is possible as there's nothing to prevent your claws from being used in the appropriate way. So, the Spiked gauntlet makes his attack considered armed, not unarmed, and then he mixes that with his natural secondary attacks. It makes sense to me and it appears he's cleared that with his DM too so it sounds good to me.

Yeah, if he can get that approved, it's pretty sweet. An extra claw attack in a full attack isn't a serious balance concern, but it could open a can of worms if someone else were interested in taking it a couple steps further. As a DM, I wouldn't approve it myself, and I definitely wouldn't allow a slam and a claw with the same hand. But then, I'm accustomed to games that make allowances for monster PC's, so multiple-attack cheese is one of the more common balance concerns in low-level parties.

In my mind, a spiked gauntlet would be even more likely to interfere with claws, because a gauntlet is an armored glove that encases your hand; so the claws should be inside the glove. But, I'm not going to interfere with house rules: if she wants to rule that way, have at it and have fun!

[daremetoidareyo]

Fight defensively, and add power attack and use truestrike every round.

Bronze dragon lineage is amazing, your opponents have to move away from you. If you have combat reflexes, the ghostly tail spell will whip them to shreds. If you do go this direction, invest in the caltrops spell. That way they have to get away from you in a caltrop field while you ghost tail them, possibly while you power attack truestrike them.

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah, if he can get that approved, it's pretty sweet. An extra claw attack in a full attack isn't a serious balance concern, but it could open a can of worms if someone else were interested in taking it a couple steps further. As a DM, I wouldn't approve it myself, and I definitely wouldn't allow a slam and a claw with the same hand. But then, I'm accustomed to games that make allowances for monster PC's, so multiple-attack cheese is one of the more common balance concerns in low-level parties.

In my mind, a spiked gauntlet would be even more likely to interfere with claws, because a gauntlet is an armored glove that encases your hand; so the claws should be inside the glove. But, I'm not going to interfere with house rules: if she wants to rule that way, have at it and have fun!

She has a weird thing about natural attacks and monster PCs. She's fairly universally ok with humanoid PCs but fairly universally not ok with non-humanoid PCs. She also plays a bit heavier with the concept of "Does it make sense". The way she described the spiked gauntlets is that they aren't so much gloves as they are worn over gloves in an attempt to protect the hand. Think fingerless gloves I guess would be the best way. Either way, the claws protrude from the tips of the gauntlets. When I just asked her she said this:

"Imagine I throw a punch at you, then with my other hand I bring a claw across you as I bring my initial punch back. Next, I bring my first hand back and claw you as I retract my first claw, and finally as I pull the second claw away, I slam you with the fist of stone hand. it's basically a flurry of unarmed attacks that never progresses in number and only gets better (as far as attack bonus is concerned) if you burn a feat. If the damage gets too high, I'll just throw in something with DR 5/'something he doesn't have' and call it a day."

Those were her words.

[Rebel7284]

Consider Beast Strike feat from Dragon #355 to stack your Unarmed Strike damage and your Claw damage. Also, consider Enlarge Person instead of Shield.

Alter Self and Wings of Cover should be your other level 2 spells once you get more choices.

[AnimeTheCat]

Consider Beast Strike feat from Dragon #355 to stack your Unarmed Strike damage and your Claw damage. Also, consider Enlarge Person instead of Shield.

Alter Self and Wings of Cover should be your other level 2 spells once you get more choices.

The DM, as a hard rule, doesn't allow anything from Dragon Magazine. There are no exceptions.

I recommended he use Shield as opposed to enlarge person for two reasons. One, the group is very mid-op. By adding reach and a damage step to everything, he would most certainly overshadow everyone else and that is something we are trying to avoid. Two, because of the feat draconic claw the shield spell is a defensive buff that can be used offensively as he gets a swift action claw attack to an enemy he threatens at no penalty with his full strength modifier. The only thing he loses is +2 strength and reach which will come in to play very little in the game he's playing. The majority of the enemies are medium or smaller with the exception of "boss" type enemies or other unique situations.

Alter self and the other polymorph line spells are pretty strictly controled by the DM and are not nearly as potent. Useful, to be sure, but not overbearingly powerful. Because of that and the fact that the player I'm helping already has decent physical ability scores, I suggested a different, more defensive oriented buff.

Last, I've seen wings of cover talked about many times, but I don't know what book it's in. Could you kindly point me in the direction please?

[Darrin]

Last, I've seen wings of cover talked about many times, but I don't know what book it's in. Could you kindly point me in the direction please?

Wings of cover is in Races of the Dragon (p. 119). You'll also want to consider instant diversion in the same book (p. 113), sort of "lesser mirror image", 1st level spell with a swift action casting time.

More gish spell advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532726-Beatstick-Build&p=22314198#post22314198), if you're so inclined.