Off-Meta Builds

[Galgano]

I've tried looking online for character builds that would not be considered normal. However, every result turns up with people asking how to make the "MOST OP broken builds that will leave your dm crying1!11!!!!"
I don't want those kinds of builds. Usually I think of a certain gimmick and try my hardest to get that gimmick to come to fruition with my character. That way, I can see if it's viable or fun.
Has anyone made any characters where you went against the mould? A charismatic fighter that doesn't hit hard, or a wizard with low intelligence and takes feats in armor proficiency so they can cast spells while they have armor equipped

Currently, I'm playing in a group with no dedicated healer. Our group consists of a bard, a barbarian, a rogue, a mystic, and me the wizard. I have medicine proficiency and bought a healers kit so I can auto stabilize in a pinch. I'm also considering getting the healer feat so that I can heal to 1 health. I also got my dm to let me switch out light crossbow proficiency with hand crossbow proficiency.

Does anyone play with unusual builds (like a fighter with high intelligence)? Who knows, maybe there is a new OP build just waiting to be discovered.

[Marvnmartian]

Thats the thing with 5e they have basically optimized the system as it is as long as your highest stat is your attack/casting stat then you will have a good time.

choosing not so optimal choices is all well and fine ive played a Mountain Dwarf wizard simply cause i wanted to wear heavy armor and cast spells even though it meant essentially losing an ASI in my main stat.

As for your group if your bard is lore then he can be a pretty darn good healer in his own right. especially if he dips 1 level into life cleric but if you want to heal as well feel free to take that 1 level dip in life to heavy armor up as well as getting the extra healing.

[Easy_Lee]

However, every result turns up with people asking how to make the "MOST OP broken builds that will leave your dm crying1!11!!!!"
I don't want those kinds of builds

...

Who knows, maybe there is a new OP build just waiting to be discovered.

So, which is it? You looking for OP builds or unusual builds?

The truth is that, in 3.5e terms, no build in 5e is really broken. There are builds that are not good enough to survive a typical campaign, but there are none that overshadow people filling different roles. Even if you can cast every spell, you can only concentrate on one spell at a time and must rely on party members to provide other effects. And even if you can take every action, you can only take one at a time.

With that in mind, here's a build that toys a little with both: Fighter 2 / Dragon Sorcerer X. Take Spell Sniper, Greenflame Blade, and use a whip. Greenflame Blade targets at 10 feet, adding charisma to damage from red dragon origin, while twinning buffs on party members. Now you can action surge (take two actions in one turn) and Twin (concentrate on two copies of the same spell). How's that for OP?

[Mikal]

Any Str based Hexblade who keeps Warlock their main.
Since the class is built with Cha to hit and damage in mind, that's pretty off meta.

[Laserlight]

I've tried looking online for character builds that would not be considered normal. However, every result turns up with people asking how to make the "MOST OP broken builds that will leave your dm crying1!11!!!!"
I don't want those kinds of builds. Usually I think of a certain gimmick and try my hardest to get that gimmick to come to fruition with my character. That way, I can see if it's viable or fun.
Has anyone made any characters where you went against the mould? A charismatic fighter that doesn't hit hard, or a wizard with low intelligence and takes feats in armor proficiency so they can cast spells while they have armor equipped

Are you looking for "an unusual build which is OP" or "a build which is deliberately inefficient" or what? I tend to not max out my main stat until L8, even if I could do it earlier; and I've deliberately taken some feats that weren't optimized. Example, bladelock who relied on Darkness and yet took Mobile (one of the benefits of Mobile is avoiding opportunity attacks, but Darkness also prevents OAs except for that rare creature who can see through it).

If you mean something like taking an 8INT wizard or 8CON fighter...as a DM I'd want to be sure you can operate with the rest of the group. I've been in a party where one guy's attack was at +3 when everyone else was at +11 or so. That kind of disparity makes it hard to design encounters that are interesting to the rest of the party without making the laggard useless.

If you want something like a 6INT barbarian or 6STR wizard, those can be fun to play but there's nothing remarkable about the build.


Currently, I'm playing in a group with no dedicated healer. Our group consists of a bard, a barbarian, a rogue, a mystic, and me the wizard. I have medicine proficiency and bought a healers kit so I can auto stabilize in a pinch. I'm also considering getting the healer feat so that I can heal to 1 health. I also got my dm to let me switch out light crossbow proficiency with hand crossbow proficiency.

Generally you don't need a dedicated healer. It's nice to have a couple of people who can stabilize someone who's making death saves, but generally one Healing Word is sufficient. In 5e you want to prevent damage rather than heal it, and one of the best ways to prevent it is to apply the condition "dead". Healing can be done after the fight.

[Galgano]

I probably wrote that wrong, but I wasn't really looking for OP builds specifically, just builds that aren't normal. Like builds that don't heavily invest in the primary stats of a class or choose a race that doesn't give bonuses to your class's primary stat. I'm not specifically looking for OP or necessarily optimal builds, just builds that are unusual compared to the traditional way of playing that character (like a rogue with their lowest score in dexterity). If it turns out to be OP then that's fine. I've read the rule books for the various editions but I've never really had the chance to actually sit with a group and play the game. If I just build the most optimal character possible I'm worried I'll get bored with the game because if I know I can game the system, then there is no challenge. I'm not saying that I want something like that +3/+11 situation. More of a situation where a character focuses on something that's not their specialty. Like a fighter who heals or a wizard that focuses on melee attacks rather than flinging spells around

[nickl_2000]

The Dex based bare chested Barbarian is one that comes to mind.

[Mara]

Skill Monkey Fighter Bard:

Champion Human Guild Artisan
14 str 14 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 11 cha
Skills: Survival, Animal Handling, Insight, Persuasion, Alchemy
Languages: Common, Draconic
Fighting Styles: Dueling, Archery
ASI: +2 str, +2 str, +2str. +2 dex, +2dex, +2dex, +2 con

Remarkable Athlete let's you play any Dex instrument pretty well.

[smcmike]

Lots of people come to the forums for strange builds. Look around and you will find some.

The classic is the Mountain Dwarf wizard, usually an Abjurer, who uses high strength and constitution to be a capable melee fighter, with spells for support.

Other odd builds include armored monks, or monks with odd weapons, melee warlocks, ranged weapon warlocks, grappler bards, or heavy weapon rogues (usually just an assassin dip, to be fair).

Useful building blocks for weird builds:

Dwarf Speed - no penalty for heavy armor without strength
Dwarf weapons & armor training.
Elf weapons training
High elf cantrip

Ritual Caster
Magic Initiate
Spell Sniper

[Aett_Thorn]

Half-Orc Rogue using a Short Sword with Str instead of Dex. Not necessarily dumping Dex, but at least using Str as your main stat would be fun.

Dex-based Paladins work fine compared to their Str-based counterparts, but just have trouble multi-classing.

Rangers that use medium armor and a two-handed weapon can work just fine as well. Go Dragonborn for the added AoE option.

A Gnome Mastermind Rogue who mainly uses his Int to out-wit his opponents (might be even more feasible with the Inquisitive Rogue coming in Xanathar's guide).

I still like using a Bard to make a sort of pseudo-Arcane Archer, who uses his Magical Secrets options to take the various Ranger archery spells (Lightning Arrow, Swift Quiver, Conjure Barrage, etc.)

[Trampaige]

(like a rogue with their lowest score in dexterity).

Rogue x / barbarian 2 / fighter 1 who dumps dex but uses a rapier with 20 str to reckless attack and get sneak attack every turn. They wear full plate and a shield to have 21 ac with only 8 dex and forego raging.


Edit: Damnit, forgot rogues need 13 dex to multiclass.

Go swashbuckler and take the heavy armor feat at lvl1.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The wall.

Pick your choice or combination of fighter/Barbarian/paladin

Now grab two shields.

And pick up as many of these as you can

Sentinel
Shield master
Dual wielder
Tavern brawler

Go full captain America and keep the other for AC boost.

[Aett_Thorn]

Useful building blocks for weird builds:

Ritual Caster


This really is a good one that I think gets overlooked by martial characters a lot, but can add a ton of flavor to them. Want to create a shamanistic/totem warrior? Take RC: Druid. Want to make a more pious paladin? Take RC: cleric. Etc.

[Vorpalchicken]

Unless your DM is really nice, you can't multiclass out of or into rogue with an 8 in dexterity. Also two shields is not allowed by the rules. So simply convince your DM to let you play a fire giant and then show him Volos Guide as a precedent.

For an unusual build, try an armored monk. You need 13 dex and Wis to qualify and you use Strength for your attack stat. You also want Wisdom high. Start with one level in Tempest Cleric, then go Monk the rest of the way. Take Polearm Master to make up for lost monk abilities.
You lose unarmored defense (which you don't need, duh) martial arts ( but you can still flurry for Str mod +1 damage and open hand riders) and movement stuff (worst drawback of the build)
You can still Stun (doesn't have to be a monk weapon) and deflect missiles and you have a bonus action polearm attack. You still have other fun ki things too that aren't stopped by wearing armor.

You could do a single classed Str based rogue with an 8 dex. Maybe go mountain dwarf or variant human/moderately Armored and add heavy armour at level 4. You can have some fun with expertise in grappling. The human version could take Shield Master.

[jas61292]

Multiclassing requirements make going too far from the norm a bit more difficult, but a single class character can have a ton of fun bucking the trend. Casters, especially those with set lists of spells known, really don't need their casting stat. If you focus on non-offensive/debuffing spells, your casting stat is often unneeded. Sure, some class abilities might miss it, but is usually not that bad. And the ability to get much higher scores in other stats is great.

People often mention mountain dwarf wizards, but usually that is just off-meta in the sense that the race doesn't boost Int. If you still max out Int first, and then use your other start points to boost Con and Dex (to a 14 due to medium armor), you are really not that different from any other optimized wizard. But, if you don't focus on Int at all (not necessarily dumping it all the way; just not putting it first) and use the freed up points to actually make you capable in other ways, you can have a very different, but effective character.

[Joe the Rat]

This really is a good one that I think gets overlooked by martial characters a lot, but can add a ton of flavor to them. Want to create a shamanistic/totem warrior? Take RC: Druid. Want to make a more pious paladin? Take RC: cleric. Etc.

reminds me of the Barbarian Wizard. Totem barbarian, RC: Wizard. You already have two ritual spells from barbarian; just add more ritual magic and a familiar.

I love me Halfling Strength builds. From barbarian hilarity to "oh look, an extra ASI for Strength!" Fighter options, they are weird and viable, and full of groin attack humor.

One of these days I'm going to sort out the shillelagh fighter. Mediocre physical stats, fights using Wisdom and an enchanted stick.

[ghost_warlock]

For a while, I was playing a winged tiefling (from the Sword Coast book) who was a multiclass warlock/dragon sorcerer. She used the Mask of Many Faces invocation to permanently disguise herself as a red dragon hatchling. Almost all of her spells were fire-themed and reflavored to be various breath weapon attacks. She claimed to be studying the Way of the Voice to learn to optimize her breath weapon, and thereby learned a few thunder-based "breath weapons" as well.

Her background was pirate for the "Bad Reputation" feature. At night, she slept inside a tent so nobody else in the party would see her in her true form. All in all, I sacrificed a ton of spell progression (sorcerer 5/warlock 5 when I stopped playing her) so she was anything but optimized, but it was a fun character to roleplay anyway.

[smcmike]

reminds me of the Barbarian Wizard. Totem barbarian, RC: Wizard. You already have two ritual spells from barbarian; just add more ritual magic and a familiar.

One nice thing about Ritual Caster (that I initially overlooked) is you don’t need anything in the casting stat. A 13 Wis barbarian with wizard rituals is awesome.



One of these days I'm going to sort out the shillelagh fighter. Mediocre physical stats, fights using Wisdom and an enchanted stick.

Seems like Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric 1/Fighter 19 should work just fine for this. Max wisdom and Con. Alternatively, Cleric 8/Fighter 12 is still mostly a fighter.

[Vorpalchicken]

A build I've seen is two levels of barbarian, followed by Warlock. A lot of Warlock spells are non concentration. (Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image, Blink (Fey), Fire Shield (Fiend) ) So you can cast and then rage while retaining the spell. Could do blade lock for extra attacks.

A blinking barbarian would be funny (but kinda bad)

[Citan]

I've tried looking online for character builds that would not be considered normal. However, every result turns up with people asking how to make the "MOST OP broken builds that will leave your dm crying1!11!!!!"
I don't want those kinds of builds. Usually I think of a certain gimmick and try my hardest to get that gimmick to come to fruition with my character. That way, I can see if it's viable or fun.
Has anyone made any characters where you went against the mould? A charismatic fighter that doesn't hit hard, or a wizard with low intelligence and takes feats in armor proficiency so they can cast spells while they have armor equipped

Currently, I'm playing in a group with no dedicated healer. Our group consists of a bard, a barbarian, a rogue, a mystic, and me the wizard. I have medicine proficiency and bought a healers kit so I can auto stabilize in a pinch. I'm also considering getting the healer feat so that I can heal to 1 health. I also got my dm to let me switch out light crossbow proficiency with hand crossbow proficiency.

Does anyone play with unusual builds (like a fighter with high intelligence)? Who knows, maybe there is a new OP build just waiting to be discovered.
Easy: make a character that has been always so obsessed with natural weather's power he dedicated his life to studying it: Tempest Cleric 3+ / Storm Sorcerer 3+ / Evoker Wizard 3+.
The inherent MADness of this build and being a "fullcaster with third-caster equivalent in maximum spell known" would probably make 99% of people here scream in horror...

But, the thing is, this one would actually be a great contributor to the party as long as you play it smart.
You don't care that much about DEX since you have heavy armor and Absorb Elements.
You don't care that much about STR since you will stay far in the back anyways.
You don't care that much about WIS because there are enough good spells to prepare that don't depend on it.
You don't care that much about INT because there are enough good spells to prepare that don't depend on it.
So you can just try and bump CHA and CON, or just CON, or push the concept and be a normal Human (14 across all stats).

Outside combat, Extended Aid, or Enhance Ability, or any of the ~15 rituals you know.
During combat, Healing Words, Fog Cloud, Darkness, maximized Shatter, or just plain Bless paired with cantrips should be enough to help party in a fair manner.

You can then either focus on one class and bump related stat, or pursue on this course and pick utility feats: Healer, Observant, Inspiring Leader are all great additions. ;)

You end with a character which would certainly seem subpar spellcasting-wise when compared to a "true" caster (no spell higher than 2nd level), subpar when compared to a martial (no weapon attack enhancement of any kind), because he will never have any flashy spell or nova trick to use in fight. But you can be certain that the party would be in trouble without him (except a really large party like 6+). ;)

[Biggstick]

Off-Meta will typically be something that doesn't gain a benefit to it's primary stat, or it's an underplayed archetype. Some examples include:

Hill Dwarf, Trickery Cleric. (Takes arguably the best Cleric race and puts it on one of the most commonly viewed as subpar Cleric archetypes. Knowledge of how to play a Cleric and how to take advantage of the interesting spell list is important.)
Mountain Dwarf, Abjuration Wizard. (Pretty common example of an uncommon Wizard.)
High Elf, Lore Bard. (In reading the Bard section, you see it mentions Elvish for Bardic songs, but Elves don't gain a Charisma bonus. Be the reason the Bard write-up mention Elvish songs.)
Wood Elf, Berserker Barbarian. (The oft spoken of Dexterity Barbarian. The off-kilter Wood Elves are just the type to make this an interesting choice.)
Human variant, Way of Four Elements Monk. (A powerful race slapped onto one of the "weakest" archetypes. Grab the Mobile feat, or Alert, and have fun with the RP this class can bring.)
Lightfoot Halfling, Land Druid. (All the racial bonuses are great, both in and out of form. The only negative is that you don't have a Wisdom bonus. But do you really need that? Not really).
Stout Halfling, Mastermind Rogue. (Very rarely do I see a Mastermind. And when I envision a Mastermind, they're not necessarily required to be the ones sneaking about the place as a scout, they act as direct support to someone marching along, making the lack of darkvision not as debilitating.)
Dragonborn, Valor Bard. (When I think Dragonborn, I think Paladin or Sorcerer, and that's what I typically see when Players play this race. It's perfectly suited to play a Strength-based Valor Bard, and a bit off kilter for Dragonborn society, so get in there and play some music!)
Forest Gnome, OotA Paladin. (Gnomes in general are amazing against casters. Lets slap the Gnome racial abilities on top of one of the best anti-caster archetypes too! Even though stats don't line up, you can still build a pretty iconic story around this type of magic resistance.)
Rock Gnome, Thief Rogue. (A class that can take advantage of Artificers Lore. Having expertise on History checks regarding magic items, alchemical objects, or technological devises is a nice addition to any Thief Rogue chassis.)
Half Elf, Champion Fighter. (Consider Inspiring Leader as a feat. You're the pinnacle of physical perfection, and you've got a Charisma to match. The Entertainer background might be very fitting for such a character. Strength or Dexterity based will both be interesting.)
Half Orc, Moon Druid. (A fantastic racial, and an interesting story for how such a potentially violent race becomes a Druid.)
Tiefling (Feral variant from SCAG), Hunter Ranger. (It might feel a little like Driz't (sp?), but it's got a different flavor to it imo. It's definitely different then the hundreds of Elf and Human Rangers I constantly hear about.)

That's just PHB races (and a tiny bit of SCAG at the end). There are plenty of other choices that could be made that are off-meta, but that's way too many to really write down lol.

[Rogerdodger557]

A guide to always go first, AL legal:

Variant Human, Prioritize Dex and Cha, with at least a 13 in Strength, feat is Alert
In no particular order, go

Rogue 3, Swashbuckler. Add Cha to initiative
Bard 2. Add 1/2 proficiency to initiative.
Barbarian 7, for advantage on initiative
Use the remaining 8 levels to do whatever you want with, but don't add a 4th class on to it. You'll be MAD enough as is.

Max Dex and Cha, grab a magic item to pump Strength
?
Profit.



If you max Dex and Cha to 20, you'll have a 18 modifier to initiative, with advantage; but its also more than likely be the only thing your good for in combat.

Edit: Added vuman feat

Homebrew Style:
Basically the same, just swap the 13 Str for 13 Wis, go revised ranger. use the remaining 12 levels do with as you please.

[Trampaige]

A build I've seen is two levels of barbarian, followed by Warlock. A lot of Warlock spells are non concentration. (Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image, Blink (Fey), Fire Shield (Fiend) ) So you can cast and then rage while retaining the spell. Could do blade lock for extra attacks.

A blinking barbarian would be funny (but kinda bad)

I've found that in most situations as a fiendlock, it's easier just to throw a fireball or two before raging. The problem with armor of agathys or fire shield is that most things don't want to hit you once they know that it hurts, which usually means one of the squishier people gets creamed instead of me. If you buff during the fight, it takes away from your action economy. If you pre-buff, you can find out that you really wish you hadn't so you had an extra slot to counterspell/fireball/etc.

Mirror image is another warlock spell that really should have gotten a bonus from upcasting with extra images. It really hurts using one of two available lvl4 spell slots to cast a lvl2 spell.



A guide to always go first:
Variant Human, Prioritize Dex and Cha, with at least a 13 in Strength
In no particular order, go
Rogue 3, Swashbuckler. Add Cha to initiative
Bard 2. Add 1/2 proficiency to initiative.
Barbarian 7, for advantage on initiative
Use the remaining 8 levels to do whatever you want with, but don't add a 4rth class on to it. You'll be MAD enough as is.
Max Dex and Cha, grab a magic item to pump Strength
?
Profit.

Revised ranger 1 instead of barb 7 for advantage on initiative. Swap the 13 str for 13 wisdom.

I assume your Vhuman feat is for Alert?

[Biggstick]

A guide to always go first:

Variant Human, Prioritize Dex and Cha, with at least a 13 in Strength
In no particular order, go

Rogue 3, Swashbuckler. Add Cha to initiative
Bard 2. Add 1/2 proficiency to initiative.
Barbarian 7, for advantage on initiative

Max Dex and Cha, grab a magic item to pump Strength
?
Profit.



If you max Dex and Cha to 20, you'll have a 18 modifier to initiative, with advantage.

A Swashbuckler 17 and Lore Bard 3 has access to 5 ASI's. Take the Alert feat at level 1 as your Human Variant feat, start with 16's in both Dex and Cha. Once you hit level three, you'll have a bonus of +11 to Initiative. Use ASI's to bump Dex and Cha to 20, and grab Sharpshooter to fight from maximum Shortbow range in the late game. Pick up the 3 Bard levels somewhere along the way, for Cutting Words, Bardic Inspiration, JoaT, more Expertise/Skills, and the Invisibility spell.

Once Dex/Cha are maxed out, you'll have a bonus of +18 to Initiative, and a much cleaner leveling scheme, without the tough multiclassing requirements (13 Str, Dex, and Cha for your build).

[Rogerdodger557]

Revised ranger 1 instead of barb 7 for advantage on initiative. Swap the 13 str for 13 wisdom.

Good to know. Added a homebrew version to always go first with this.


I assume your Vhuman feat is for Alert?

For got to put that. Oops

[JAL_1138]

Not exactly what you're looking for, most likely, but a really fun one IMO that isn't optimized out the wazoo: archer bard.

Fighter 1 or Fighter 2, put the rest in Valor Bard. Take Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert. Pick up either Elemental Weapon or Swift Quiver depending on the prevalence of magic items in the campaign. Comparable damage to a Thief Rogue or Agonizing Blast Warlock with Hex, 9th-level spells.

Switch between competent-ish ranged-damage dealer, healer/buffer, controller/debuffer, and skillmonkey depending on what the party needs at the moment. Never as good as a specialist, but about the only thing you're not fairly passable at is melee (and with Crossbow Expert you're not completely up the creek if you get into melee). But for the most part your emphasis is on shooting things in the face with a crossbow, not playing a lute.

With two levels of Fighter you can Action Surge, but you'll never get both Dex and Cha to 20--even as a Vhuman you can only get 1 of the 2 up to 20 if you min/max a bit and start with 8-16-14-8-10-16. As a half-elf you can only get to 18s in either.

Optimal? No. A straight-up Lore Bard focusing on support casting and largely ignoring weapon damage, or getting some at-will damage with a Warlock 2 dip, is more optimal. But archer bards are fun.

[MagneticKitty]

With that in mind, here's a build that toys a little with both: Fighter 2 / Dragon Sorcerer X. Take Spell Sniper, Greenflame Blade, and use a whip. Greenflame Blade targets at 10 feet, adding charisma to damage from red dragon origin, while twinning buffs on party members. Now you can action surge (take two actions in one turn) and Twin (concentrate on two copies of the same spell). How's that for OP?

Green fire blade has a range of 5 feet. I think to prevent using it on ranged weapon. So you can't use it at the whip's 10 ft only 5 fy

[Easy_Lee]

Green fire blade has a range of 5 feet. I think to prevent using it on ranged weapon. So you can't use it at the whip's 10 ft only 5 fy

Spell Sniper

[MagneticKitty]

Oh I didn't notice spell sniper my bad.

I like bear totem bar bearian druid. 13 in str then all in dex, con and Wis. Turn into a bear and rage with bear totem resistances.

[Joe the Rat]

I like bear totem bar bearian druid. 13 in str then all in dex, con and Wis. Turn into a bear and rage with bear totem resistances.
Pity Beastmaster Ranger has such a low CR limit for the companion; otherwise you could get a Bear animal companion too.

I do love a solid theme.

Kenku Pact of the Chain Raven Queen Warlock. All blackbirds, all the time. Add Druid for more bird.

Sometime I'm going to try the not-monk. Vhuman Warlock with crossbow expert: Point Blank Eldritch Blast Punch. pick up Agonizing and Repelling blast, armor of shadows, otherworldly leap. Careful selection of spells gives you some fun monk-like abilities, and you eventually reach four attacks on that "flurry."

[MagneticKitty]

Pity Beastmaster Ranger has such a low CR limit for the companion; otherwise you could get a Bear animal companion too.

I do love a solid theme.

Kenku Pact of the Chain Raven Queen Warlock. All blackbirds, all the time. Add Druid for more bird.

Sometime I'm going to try the not-monk. Vhuman Warlock with crossbow expert: Point Blank Eldritch Blast Punch. pick up Agonizing and Repelling blast, armor of shadows, otherworldly leap. Careful selection of spells gives you some fun monk-like abilities, and you eventually reach four attacks on that "flurry."

Revised ranger beast master can do black bear companion

[Asmotherion]

I've tried looking online for character builds that would not be considered normal. However, every result turns up with people asking how to make the "MOST OP broken builds that will leave your dm crying1!11!!!!"
I don't want those kinds of builds. Usually I think of a certain gimmick and try my hardest to get that gimmick to come to fruition with my character. That way, I can see if it's viable or fun.
Has anyone made any characters where you went against the mould? A charismatic fighter that doesn't hit hard, or a wizard with low intelligence and takes feats in armor proficiency so they can cast spells while they have armor equipped

Currently, I'm playing in a group with no dedicated healer. Our group consists of a bard, a barbarian, a rogue, a mystic, and me the wizard. I have medicine proficiency and bought a healers kit so I can auto stabilize in a pinch. I'm also considering getting the healer feat so that I can heal to 1 health. I also got my dm to let me switch out light crossbow proficiency with hand crossbow proficiency.

Does anyone play with unusual builds (like a fighter with high intelligence)? Who knows, maybe there is a new OP build just waiting to be discovered.

I've played more or less all classes, (minus Ranger, never could pull the RP behind it), as long as I started with my favorite 2 levels of Warlock. Our group starts at level 3. I Just wanted the Eldritch Blasts for Fluff reasons really (though I always play high Charisma Characters as well). From that, I don't mind playing whatever I'm served by the DM, including his choice of Patron.

That has given me many opportunities to build around, and a lot of them were really fun, both RP-wise, and Mechanic-Wise.

BTW, do me a Solid, and next time that mystic falls unconsious, don't stabilise him >_> let him learn the mystic things of death :P

... Just Kidding, I just hate the Mystic Class XD

[Eladain]

The Dex based bare chested Barbarian is one that comes to mind.

Running this as a Halfling with a rogue MC currently and loving it.

[Maxilian]

Well... Off-meta builds? anything goes with Fighter

1-WIS based Fighter

Variant Human
Magic Initiate -Shillelagh and Thorn whip

EK, Go Fighter till lvl 8 (for the lvl 7 ability to cast cantrip -like BB- and 1 attack) and 8 for the ASI, MC into Cleric, Treachery cleric works, the clone you can make, let you cast through it, you could use it with thorn whip to move enemies away from you to move without provoking OA.

2-CHA based Fighter melee

EK LVL 8, 2 LVL Warlock Hexblade, take the FS that let you attack at 5 without disadvantage with range attack, now use your lvl 7 ability with EB and to hit with your weapon normally.

3-Cha based Range Fighter

Vuman Magic Initiate - Magic Stone

Go Battlemaster, take everything that works with CHA, use the UA feat for skills for Intimidation or Deception (give you the ability to consume 1 attack to make an effect, works great with the limitation for magic stone -the limitation of the cantrip becomes more obvious at lvl 11, but this ability make it less painful, if having problem with your enchanted amunition, you could also take the other feat that you left the first time -Intimidation or Deception, that would give you more control in the battlefield)

[Xetheral]

I'm confused. How did the phrase "off-meta" come to mean "unusual" or "non-standard"? I assume it has to be an idiom, but I'm not sure if it's slang, jargon, or a colloquialism.

Googling reveals a lot of references to League of Legends, so maybe it's League of Legends jargon? Still not sure how it's derived--"meta" as a prefix certainly doesn't mean "standard" or anything close to that, and the only slang usage of "meta" I'm familiar with means "deep" in the context of an idea or revelation.

[Biggstick]

I'm confused. How did the phrase "off-meta" come to mean "unusual" or "non-standard"? I assume it has to be an idiom, but I'm not sure if it's slang, jargon, or a colloquialism.

Googling reveals a lot of references to League of Legends, so maybe it's League of Legends jargon? Still not sure how it's derived--"meta" as a prefix certainly doesn't mean "standard" or anything close to that, and the only slang usage of "meta" I'm familiar with means "deep" in the context of an idea or revelation.

It's been used in online competitive gaming for quite a while. It refers to what is currently standard in competitive play. Anything that deviates from the most commonly played or popular strategies/classes/champions/skill sets/etc can be referred to as "Off-Meta," or "Out of the Meta."

In regards to D&D 5E, it would be talking about things that are uncommon. If I come here to this forum and complain about a group with: a Sorcadin, a Sharpshooting Fighter, a GWM Barbarian, a Moon Druid, and a Lore Bard, people would be confused as to how such a party could be doing poorly. If I were to come to this forum complaining about a group with: a standard PHB Beastmaster Ranger, a Four Elements Monk, a Champion Fighter w/o SS/GWM/PAM/Sentinel/SM, a Wild Magic Sorcerer, and a Trickery Cleric, people would be on my side from the get go. There are most definitely class and race combinations that aren't nearly as common to find when you're discussing character builds in D&D, hence the questions the OP has proposed.

[Joe the Rat]

Revised ranger beast master can do black bear companion

Heh, Add that then. Sir Bearington Lives!

[Pichu]

How about a Diviner 4 High Elf with Elven Accuracy Feat (pick up Lucky later), Blur, and Find Familiar. Roll every attack with super advantage (1d20 normal, 1d20 from advantage via Help action from familiar, and 1d20 from Elven Accuracy). Choose Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade, put Blur up, and have fun.

Remember, you are still just a wizard, not a monk, fighter, or barbarian :P

[druid91]

Toxic Conjurer.

Use your ability to create objects to create pools of acid, or purple worm venom, or other such noxious things.

The purple worm venom is particularly nasty, because you can combine with the dwarven artillery team trick. Get a barrel. Fill it with javelins. Douse the Javelins in a few gallons of magical purple worm venom.

Use the Catapult spell to launch the barrel, AFTER putting an explosive rune on the bottom. As it reaches the apex of it's flight, look at the rune. BOOM. Barrel is destroyed, hurling dozens of poisoned javelins over the battlefield.

Sure, you're not very accurate, but that's not the point. The point is to be AWESOME.

[Rabbitfox]

Not sure how "off-meta" it is but I love playing Rogue/Barbarian.

Start with Variant Human Rogue with Mobility Feat. Do Rogue for first 2 Lvls, get Cunning Action.
Then go 2 Lvl Barbarian to get Reckless Attack/Unarmored Defense & Shield Proficiency.
Get another Lvl to Rogue and pick Arcane Trickster with Booming Blade & Longstride.

Base Speed with Mobility is 40ft, if you can cast Longstride before Battle it is 50ft. You can move up to 80ft/100ft using cunning action per round, attack somebody and move back out (as long as you attack an isolated target). For your melee attack you can use your sneak attack with booming blade using reckless attack with a Rapier for at least 2d8+2d6. If your target tries to chase you then they take an extra 2d8 damage from booming blade. During combat it feels to me like you are playing a Vanguard from Mass Effect.

Out of combat you are still useful with the skills/spells from the rogue.

[Xetheral]

It's been used in online competitive gaming for quite a while. It refers to what is currently standard in competitive play. Anything that deviates from the most commonly played or popular strategies/classes/champions/skill sets/etc can be referred to as "Off-Meta," or "Out of the Meta."

In regards to D&D 5E, it would be talking about things that are uncommon. If I come here to this forum and complain about a group with: a Sorcadin, a Sharpshooting Fighter, a GWM Barbarian, a Moon Druid, and a Lore Bard, people would be confused as to how such a party could be doing poorly. If I were to come to this forum complaining about a group with: a standard PHB Beastmaster Ranger, a Four Elements Monk, a Champion Fighter w/o SS/GWM/PAM/Sentinel/SM, a Wild Magic Sorcerer, and a Trickery Cleric, people would be on my side from the get go. There are most definitely class and race combinations that aren't nearly as common to find when you're discussing character builds in D&D, hence the questions the OP has proposed.

Interesting. If you happen to know, how did "meta" come to be synonymous with "standard"? Was it a deliberate incongruity?

[smcmike]

Interesting. If you happen to know, how did "meta" come to be synonymous with "standard"? Was it a deliberate incongruity?

Googling the term indicates that it may have been popular in CCGs before computer games. It makes a lot of sense in CCGs, and doesn’t quite mean “standard.” It’s more like the current state of play - what’s in fashion at the moment, and what you can expect your opponents to bring to the table. Since there is often an aspect of Paper Rock Scissors to CCGs, this is an important consideration - it’s impossible to say what the “best deck” is without knowing what everyone else is playing. If the game is well designed, this is in constant flux, so knowledge of the meta is essential for success.

[8wGremlin]

I'm enjoying my Eric Draven build... cheesy as hell, but what the heck!

Eric Draven: Revenant
3rd level Redemption Paladin/ 2nd Level Raven Queen Warlock.

He uses his Close Quarters Shooter + Eb to go in and "punch" (EB) his combatants, pushing them 10', occasionally Hadouken! (EB at normal range)

Unarmoured AC of 19 with shield spell when needed.

His fighting style is You are trained in making ranged attacks at close quarters. When making a ranged attack while you are within 5 feet of a hostile creature, you do not have disadvantage on the attack roll. Your ranged attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover against targets within 30 feet of you. Finally, you have a +1 bonus to attack rolls on ranged attacks.
Invocations: Agonizing blast, Repelling blast

His spells are: Hex, Healing Elixir and Expeditious Retreat (for bonus action dash)

And yes he doesn't use a weapon... just EB - fun but not OP

[Xetheral]

Googling the term indicates that it may have been popular in CCGs before computer games. It makes a lot of sense in CCGs, and doesn’t quite mean “standard.” It’s more like the current state of play - what’s in fashion at the moment, and what you can expect your opponents to bring to the table. Since there is often an aspect of Paper Rock Scissors to CCGs, this is an important consideration - it’s impossible to say what the “best deck” is without knowing what everyone else is playing. If the game is well designed, this is in constant flux, so knowledge of the meta is essential for success.

I can see how "meta" might describe the recursive process of trying to out-guess the opponent's choices (e g. "I know that you know, that I know...etc.). So that makes some sense. But I'm not quite sure I see how it would then come to refer to whatever is currently in fashion. I would have thought instead that the most-meta deck would have been the one that successfully outthought the others, rather than a description of the herd's baseline. Hmm.

Is "meta" in this context a noun or an adjective?

Also, how does this usage of "meta" meaningfully translate to the noncompetivie world of D&D that lacks a rock-paper-scissors aspect? The idea of out-thinking the DM doesn't seem to be meaningful unless you're assuming an adversarial game.

[smcmike]

I can see how "meta" might describe the recursive process of trying to out-guess the opponent's choices (e g. "I know that you know, that I know...etc.). So that makes some sense. But I'm not quite sure I see how it would then come to refer to whatever is currently in fashion. I would have thought instead that the most-meta deck would have been the one that successfully outthought the others, rather than a description of the herd's baseline. Hmm.

Is "meta" in this context a noun or an adjective?

Also, how does this usage of "meta" meaningfully translate to the noncompetivie world of D&D that lacks a rock-paper-scissors aspect? The idea of out-thinking the DM doesn't seem to be meaningful unless you're assuming an adversarial game.

The recursive process of outguessing one’s opponents is basically the same thing as knowing what is currently in fashion, and trying to stay one step ahead of the curve. This is a broadly applicable concept, though I don’t think it works well for D&D, particularly 5e.

[Joe the Rat]

Interesting. If you happen to know, how did "meta" come to be synonymous with "standard"? Was it a deliberate incongruity?

I figure it's referring to the Metagame - not the rules, but the strategies builds (decks, for CCGs) that are common, or considered strong or optimal. It's the game around the game.

Going into the Storm King's Thunder season and picking Giant as a language is playing the metagame.

[DarkKnightJin]

I figure it's referring to the Metagame - not the rules, but the strategies builds (decks, for CCGs) that are common, or considered strong or optimal. It's the game around the game.

Going into the Storm King's Thunder season and picking Giant as a language is playing the metagame.

I wouldn't so much say it's playing the metagame as it is having a brain. If you know you're going to be in an adventure that involves a lot of Giants.. it only makes sensr that you can figure out what the hell they're talking about.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'strong' option, just good thinking.

Now, if you go into SKT with a character custom-built to wreck Giants 6 ways from Sunday in every fight.. THEN you're doing the meta thing, imo.

[Xetheral]

Thank you for the clarification, everyone. I learned something new.

[Deleted]

The truth is that, in 3.5e terms, no build in 5e is really broken. There are builds that are not good enough to survive a typical campaign, but there are none that overshadow people filling different roles. Even if you can cast every spell, you can only concentrate on one spell at a time and must rely on party members to provide other effects. And even if you can take every action, you can only take one at a time.


This is completely false.

You have classes that can focus on different play styles, even changing up from session to session, and can easily overshadow others.

Loom at the Cleric. Pick up spiritual weapon (not a concentration spell), a weapon, and spirit guardians and you have a damage dealing area controlling character who can also fire off other spells.

The Evo Wizard can fire off direct at-will damage but also control the battlefield. Yeah they can concentrate on one spell, but that's all they need. They can still shoot off other spells while concentrating. Look at the necromancer wizard and they dwarf the fighter in potential damage capabilities thanks to the bounded accuracy system and undead minions.

The Warlock can blast at range keep up with melee damage, in the dark without disadvantage.

Fighters can be built to do one thing well, damage, when they come up against an obstacle that isn't "reduce its HP during optimal conditions" they will be outshines by a lot of classes. The Ranger is another class that is frequently outshined by others.

Is the ceiling 3.5? No. But within the house of 5e, you have the "haves" and "have nots" and pretending otherwise is silly.

Even the Rogue outshines the Fighter as it can keep up in damage agaonst enemies but also completely outshine the fighter with Athletic checks EVEN while not focusing on strength as much.

[Easy_Lee]

This is completely false.

You have classes that can focus on different play styles, even changing up from session to session, and can easily overshadow others.

Loom at the Cleric. Pick up spiritual weapon (not a concentration spell), a weapon, and spirit guardians and you have a damage dealing area controlling character who can also fire off other spells.

The Evo Wizard can fire off direct at-will damage but also control the battlefield. Yeah they can concentrate on one spell, but that's all they need. They can still shoot off other spells while concentrating. Look at the necromancer wizard and they dwarf the fighter in potential damage capabilities thanks to the bounded accuracy system and undead minions.

The Warlock can blast at range keep up with melee damage, in the dark without disadvantage.

Fighters can be built to do one thing well, damage, when they come up against an obstacle that isn't "reduce its HP during optimal conditions" they will be outshines by a lot of classes. The Ranger is another class that is frequently outshined by others.

Is the ceiling 3.5? No. But within the house of 5e, you have the "haves" and "have nots" and pretending otherwise is silly.

Even the Rogue outshines the Fighter as it can keep up in damage agaonst enemies but also completely outshine the fighter with Athletic checks EVEN while not focusing on strength as much.

You're moving the goal posts.

Back in 3.5e, a party was balanced if they could all contribute, regardless of who contributed most or least. Now that everyone can contribute in 5e, people are shifting the definition of balance. It's not enough that everyone can fill their role competently; now we're angry that some builds fill particular roles a little better - little in 3.5e terms - than others.

[coyote_sly]

I was really hoping the Raven Queen warlock would become official, I'd really like to make a 'lock X/Bard' Herald of the Raven Queen' build. Battlefield controller probably. There isn't really an obvious split for the multiclass, though - I want lock 6 for the Raven merge feature for flavor so probably bard dip, but then the big draw for bard is probably magical secrets.

Love the idea but I haven't come up with a solution I like for the mechanics so far.

[Deleted]

You're moving the goal posts.

Back in 3.5e, a party was balanced if they could all contribute, regardless of who contributed most or least. Now that everyone can contribute in 5e, people are shifting the definition of balance. It's not enough that everyone can fill their role competently; now we're angry that some builds fill particular roles a little better - little in 3.5e terms - than others.

No I'm not and no it wasn't.

It was ok to run a party if everyone could contribute, that didn't mean it was a balanced party. Putting a Warblade in with a Wizard didn't make the Wizard balanced, that's absurd. It was mostly ok because then the DM didn't have to hold as many hands and make sure that everyone could contribute to the game.

Same in 5e. Just because someone can contribute doesn't mean they won't be overshadowed and it doesn't mean they are on equal footing with the other classes.

Being able to do one thing versus being able to do different things (even if you have to wait between long rests) is unbalanced.

Clerics, Wizards, Druids, and some others have a distinct advantage over a class like the Fighter, Sorcerer, or Ranger in flexibility, build variety, and what they can be put up against on an average game.

[lunaticfringe]

Primeval Ranger 3/Warlock 2/Shadow Monk 6+

Just cause I want to play a Giant Ninja Tree. The Warlock bit is just to help with mobility/vision (Devil's Sight) in case your DM is super strict about shadow jumping. It could be dropped if you have a lenient DM.

I really want to do something with Primeval but I'm not a fan of 5 movement, though I suppose you can drop it as a bonus, I don't recall a cap on use. And adding Cleric or Druid levels could work for a stationary Caster. Perhaps Circle of Dreams for the 120ft healing ability.

[Rogerdodger557]

A guide to always go first, AL legal:

Variant Human, Prioritize Dex and Cha, with at least a 13 in Strength, feat is Alert
In no particular order, go

Rogue 3, Swashbuckler. Add Cha to initiative
Bard 2. Add 1/2 proficiency to initiative.
Barbarian 7, for advantage on initiative
Use the remaining 8 levels to do whatever you want with, but don't add a 4th class on to it. You'll be MAD enough as is.

Max Dex and Cha, grab a magic item to pump Strength
?
Profit.



If you max Dex and Cha to 20, you'll have a 18 modifier to initiative, with advantage; but its also more than likely be the only thing your good for in combat.

Edit: Added vuman feat

Homebrew Style:
Basically the same, just swap the 13 Str for 13 Wis, go revised ranger. use the remaining 12 levels do with as you please.

Realized this last night, going wizard 2(War) lets you add INT to initiative. If you max DEX, INT, and CHA, have the alert feat, and are Bard 2/War Wizard 2/ Swashbuckler X, you can get a 23 initiative modifier. Fairly MAD, but doable with lucky rolls/DM's ASI changes.

[poolio]

I've been wanting to do a kenku dex paladin, mostly just for the flavor :P

[Aaron Underhand]

Prompted by another thread.

My own off meta build is the Lore Bard x/Wiz 1

Driven by the lack of an arcane caster in the party my vHuman Bard dropped a single level of wizard, and I've always been pleased with the extra utility that provides:

Extra Cantrips - I chose Shocking Grasp, Acid Splash and Chill Touch to augment the Bard's poor at will damage
1st level rituals - Find Familiar, Unseen Servant have both had a lot of use, Detect Magic and Identify are generically useful, others will be in my spellbook eventually
1st level spells loaded - Mage armour and Shield - Improved AC in emergencies
- Magic Missile, for when you absolute need to hit something, or for waking three friends from hypnotic pattern
- Feather Fall, Fog, Disguise Self, Protection from Evil and Good - whatever is called for on a particular day

But for me by far the strongest bonus is the ability to select all my Bard spells from second level and above....
I've actually kept Healing Word at first level, but having the extra picks for great Bard spells at second and third is a real pleasure, and I still have full spell slots.

It's a different flavour to dropping sorcerer or warlock - certainly Off-Meta, very much the swiss army knife...