Blasphemy! There's no place like home.

[Gullintanni]

I recall one campaign where my party had been plane shifted en masse to the lower planes, and spent a good amount of time searching for a way home.

Today, when reading about devils and demons in the SRD, it occurred to me that my party was non-evil and Blasphemy is relatively common among fiends.

Could a creative party have goaded an opponent into using Blasphemy as an impromptu method of getting home?

The party is native to the material plane and the spell reads as follows:

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Thoughts?

[Quarian Rex]

That actually seems completely valid. The only problem would be that the demons are quite aware of this and not likely to oblige. The trick would be to find a demon with the ability that also had a low intelligence that the party could manipulate.

Good catch.

[denthor]

It is possible.

Now where do you return?

I live in California. If I return to northern cali. No real problems. If I return to the desert of Arizona. Well? If I am in the southern US. They all speak the same language in these cases.

I am returned to Asia somewhere. South Africa or America. Europe. I have problems in deceding order Asia being hardest europe being easier

[Arael666]

It is possible.

Now where do you return?

I live in California. If I return to northern cali. No real problems. If I return to the desert of Arizona. Well? If I am in the southern US. They all speak the same language in these cases.

I am returned to Asia somewhere. South Africa or America. Europe. I have problems in deceding order Asia being hardest europe being easier

I'm sure a party who can survive "a good a amount of time" in the lower planes would shrug off any conditions the material plane could throw at them. Imagine that you're teleported to the center of the Sahara desert, but you have a helicopter and a refrigerator full of food and assorted beverages. That gets refueled every 24 hours.

[afroakuma]

A fiend uses that ability to disengage with foes that seriously threaten it and could give pursuit, and it tends to be a higher-end ability among the denizens of the lower planes. If a fiend believed it could kill you, blasphemy wouldn't be a suitable choice unless it knew you were so far beneath it that you would die upon hearing it. If a fiend believed it could teleport away from you, it wouldn't have a need to use blasphemy to expel you and would probably like another chance to murder you, see you murdered by other natives, or let your rampage take out rivals.

That being said, blasphemy is under no obligation to put you back anywhere you think you belong. Even had you gone that route, you could have ended up on the bottom of the ocean, in the middle of space, trapped atop a frozen mountain, or on another planet. It's "go away," not "wouldn't you much rather be back home?" :smalltongue:

[Gullintanni]

A fiend uses that ability to disengage with foes that seriously threaten it and could give pursuit, and it tends to be a higher-end ability among the denizens of the lower planes. If a fiend believed it could kill you, blasphemy wouldn't be a suitable choice unless it knew you were so far beneath it that you would die upon hearing it. If a fiend believed it could teleport away from you, it wouldn't have a need to use blasphemy to expel you and would probably like another chance to murder you, see you murdered by other natives, or let your rampage take out rivals.

That being said, blasphemy is under no obligation to put you back anywhere you think you belong. Even had you gone that route, you could have ended up on the bottom of the ocean, in the middle of space, trapped atop a frozen mountain, or on another planet. It's "go away," not "wouldn't you much rather be back home?" :smalltongue:

Balors are pretty liberal with Blasphemy.

"...if the balor does not deem itself seriously threatened, it conserves abilities usable only once per day and uses blasphemy instead."

It's literally how they open combat lol.

As to the "where" component...necklace of adaptation solves most problems. As does a DM whose mentality isn't geared toward Tomb of Horrors style games. If your DM is so inclined then the consequences of creative planar travel are likely to be the least of your concerns :smalltongue:

Plus...we're adventurers! Teleportation lacks the range to get me out of the stratosphere.

BLASPHEMY - servicing your randomized interplanar travel needs since before the dawn of time :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

Balors are pretty liberal with Blasphemy.

That instruction likely assumes the balor is not on its native plane and is aiming for a debuff rather than losing the opportunity to personally murder some uppity critters, but if you've made your decisions already, then there's no sense asking for my opinion in any event. Cheers.

[Crake]

I'm sure a party who can survive "a good a amount of time" in the lower planes would shrug off any conditions the material plane could throw at them. Imagine that you're teleported to the center of the Sahara desert, but you have a helicopter and a refrigerator full of food and assorted beverages. That gets refueled every 24 hours.

I'm guessing the helicopter in this situation is the party casters. When you take into account that each of you will end up at a different place on the planet then things get quite dicey for the martials. Good luck to anyone left alone in a hazardous environment that they have no immediate means to protect themselves from.

A party that is prepared for their environment can easily survive, a single person who is not will die easily.

Also, if you're getting hit by blasphemy, you're most likely gonna also be suffering negative effects. So... In the ocean, paralyzed for 30 minutes? Or really, anywhere paralyzed for 30 minutes, you're gonna be dead. Remember that evil planes empower evil spells, so that blasphemy is gonna be hitting you harder than ever.

[Thurbane]

We're all assuming the party aren't more than 10 or levels less than the CL of the fiend, right? I mean, getting back to your home plane is nice and all, but not so much if you arrive there dead.

The good news I don't believe Blasphemy counts as a Death Attack...

[Mr Adventurer]

Doesn't that make it worse because the kill effect is harder to ward against?

[Crake]

Doesn't that make it worse because the kill effect is harder to ward against?

But also easier to come back from. You can just use raise dead or a contingent revivify, and you're fine. If it were a death effect, you'd need resurrection or better.

[Boci]

I'm guessing the helicopter in this situation is the party casters. When you take into account that each of you will end up at a different place on the planet then things get quite dicey for the martials.

Given that this is the DM interested in this trick, its a safe bet that the party being separated in a way that proves deadly would not have happened in this case.


Also, if you're getting hit by blasphemy, you're most likely gonna also be suffering negative effects. So... In the ocean, paralyzed for 30 minutes? Or really, anywhere paralyzed for 30 minutes, you're gonna be dead. Remember that evil planes empower evil spells, so that blasphemy is gonna be hitting you harder than ever.

7.75 minutes actually. Probably not too much of a difference though, also if the party is 16 level+ they will be fine.

[Gullintanni]

Technically speaking, spells like Plane Shift also don't specify EXACTLY where on a plane they're going to put you, nor does Gate or any spell with similar effect.

I think most DMs adhere to the standard convention - that if you leave a plane together, the party moves together, and that if you're going back to your home plane, you arrive pretty close to the same location you left from.

YMMV but that's always been my experience.

Also worth noting is that Hezrou are the other demons capable of Blasphemy and they're 10HD, so even 1st level characters would survive. They're also described as using Blasphemy as a first attack.

While I understand the temptation to suggest that fiends would only lead with Blasphemy when not on their home plane, nothing in their round by round tactics provides context beyond "This is what fiends tend to do first". And banishing squishy humans is just as much a victory as killing them. More importantly, if half the party is banished and the other half makes their saves, then the last two are easier targets. Blasphemy et al. remain valid strategies even if a fiend is out for blood IMO. Most fiends probably wouldn't expect a full party to voluntarily fail saving throws, that's all.

[Segev]

And depending on party level, intraplanar travel may be nigh-trivial, while guided interplanar travel might be still quite difficult. Even a 9th level character can use teleport to get from "random place on Prime" to "home" pretty reliably. Getting from an outer plane to the Prime, on the other hand, takes an 8th level spell, usually.

[Gullintanni]

And depending on party level, intraplanar travel may be nigh-trivial, while guided interplanar travel might be still quite difficult. Even a 9th level character can use teleport to get from "random place on Prime" to "home" pretty reliably. Getting from an outer plane to the Prime, on the other hand, takes an 8th level spell, usually.

Well...Plane Shift is Cleric 5, Sor/Wiz 7. Still, not always convenient, especially if your Divine caster is a Druid.

[Elkad]

So where does it send you?
Random Prime location (which means the vacuum of space. Even the odds of appearing in a solar system are infinitesimal).
Random location on a world? Most likely on a gas giant or airless planetoid.
Random location on a world capable of sustaining your life? How many worlds with breathable atmosphere, liquid water, and tolerable gravity are there in the universe?
Random location on the surface of your world? If it's Earthlike, 70% chance of dropping into the water. Either on top of it, or even far under it, depending how you define "surface".
Random land-based location on your world? Enjoy your 1d12,000 mile walk/flight/voyage.

A really nice DM would have it work as Plane Shift, with your target being the place you left the Prime from. You'd still all be scattered d500 miles from that point. At least that's only a couple weeks walking.

I darn sure wouldn't count on having the whole party appear together. Especially not together back at the Bard's house in BigCityVille.

If you land anywhere other than on your home world, you need Greater Teleport or a similar transportation without a range limit, like Plane Shift (just shift twice) or you are effectively dead. Though I guess with a Necklace of Adaption (and maybe a Ring of Sustenance), you could be rescued.

[Gullintanni]

If you land anywhere other than on your home world, you need Greater Teleport or a similar transportation without a range limit, like Plane Shift (just shift twice) or you are effectively dead. Though I guess with a Necklace of Adaption (and maybe a Ring of Sustenance), you could be rescued.

The problem is that resolving random planar travel that way...splitting the party, even with Plane Shift isn't, IMHO, really fun for parties or DMs. If I'm going to locate the party off target, they'll land together, in a location that isn't going to mean TPK.

Anything that's DM discretion probably shouldn't destroy the campaign. Nobody wants "Rocks Fall, Planar Edition".

[Keld Denar]

In Soviet Limbo, ROCKS FALL YOU!

[Psyren]

Balors are pretty liberal with Blasphemy.

"...if the balor does not deem itself seriously threatened, it conserves abilities usable only once per day and uses blasphemy instead."

It's literally how they open combat lol.

That's how they open combat on the Material Plane. If you find one in the Abyss, all bets are off (and your day is probably about to worsen significantly.) MM:


Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

[Gullintanni]

That's how they open combat on the Material Plane. If you find one in the Abyss, all bets are off (and your day is probably about to worsen significantly.) MM:

I don't find that argument particularly compelling. Yes, the write-up assumes material plane, but in the absence of descriptors for alternate behaviours based on planar location, it is fair to assume that the provided summary of round by round tactics represents the demons default behaviour one way or another, especially since being on home turf does literally nothing to diminish the efficacy of the tactics in question.

In fact, Blasphemy is MORE effective on a demon's home plane because even if a creature is immune to the worst status effects of the spell, be it by virtue of high HD, or magical protections, the target must now make a save against a powerful rider effect that, when successful, also has a strong chance to devastate the opposition.

Regardless - the MM guidelines are just that. Guidelines. Nobody's locked into running a demonic encounter according to WoTC's suggested playbook, nor am I suggesting that they ought to be. But...a debilitating no save AoE with a potent save-or-lose rider effect is, in my opinion, a pretty strong opener.

[Psyren]

It absolutely is - on the Material Plane, where using it won't catapult their prey to safety. At the very least, I'd expect them to only use it if the Abyss (or the specific part of it they're on) had some kind of trait that kept good creatures from escaping so easily.

[Gullintanni]

It absolutely is - on the Material Plane, where using it won't catapult their prey to safety. At the very least, I'd expect them to only use it if the Abyss (or the specific part of it they're on) had some kind of trait that kept good creatures from escaping so easily.

*Shrug* You say catapulted to safety, I say kill, paralyze and split the party so that the fiend is free to luxuriate in the violence of picking apart whatever's left behind.

Also...bit of a night owl huh? :p

[Crake]

Also worth noting is that Hezrou are the other demons capable of Blasphemy and they're 10HD, so even 1st level characters would survive. They're also described as using Blasphemy as a first attack.

Hezrou may be 10hd, but their CL is 13. Also, when you consider that, for example, the demonweb pits DOUBLES the CL of evil spells. Suddenly a hezrous blasphemy kills anyone 16hd or less.

[Talverin]

My take on the Balor (And the whole Blasphemy thing) is this:

It would make perfect sense to Blaspheme half the party out the door. Remember, history is full of unlikely groups of material-dwellers showing up in unexpected places and wreaking havoc.

Devils and Demons are creatures that follow their nature, and exemplify it. You puny 'mortal' creatures have no such compunctions. You don't even know what the 'rules' of waging war in the Abyss are, much less follow them. If you're weak and lost? A Balor wouldn't have much interest in wasting its' time on you. You assume the Balor wants to kill you simply because you're there.

To a Balor, a lowly mortal is like a fly - He'll swat it if it buzzes too close or too loud, but otherwise simply wants it to go away. Tormet & suffering for the fly going away is just an amusing bonus. He has bigger fish to fry.

But if the fly bites? Welp, dead fly then. Unless you're a comparable CR party, you're just so many flies.

Lastly: You could always make a bargain with a devil to be sent home in exchange for something. Y'know. If your alignment swings that way.

[Gullintanni]

Hezrou may be 10hd, but their CL is 13. Also, when you consider that, for example, the demonweb pits DOUBLES the CL of evil spells. Suddenly a hezrous blasphemy kills anyone 16hd or less.

The demonweb pits seem like a bad place to challenge fiends :smalleek:

...which sourcebook are you pulling the 2x CL from? Sounds like an interesting read.

[Segev]

So where does it send you?
Random Prime location (which means the vacuum of space. Even the odds of appearing in a solar system are infinitesimal).
Random location on a world? Most likely on a gas giant or airless planetoid.
Random location on a world capable of sustaining your life? How many worlds with breathable atmosphere, liquid water, and tolerable gravity are there in the universe?
Random location on the surface of your world? If it's Earthlike, 70% chance of dropping into the water. Either on top of it, or even far under it, depending how you define "surface".
Random land-based location on your world? Enjoy your 1d12,000 mile walk/flight/voyage.

A really nice DM would have it work as Plane Shift, with your target being the place you left the Prime from. You'd still all be scattered d500 miles from that point. At least that's only a couple weeks walking.

I darn sure wouldn't count on having the whole party appear together. Especially not together back at the Bard's house in BigCityVille.

If you land anywhere other than on your home world, you need Greater Teleport or a similar transportation without a range limit, like Plane Shift (just shift twice) or you are effectively dead. Though I guess with a Necklace of Adaption (and maybe a Ring of Sustenance), you could be rescued.

In earlier editions of D&D (AD&D 1e, for instance), the Prime was considered to be layered, much like the Abyss, Heaven, Hell, etc. All the different settings (Grayhawk, Faerun, The Known World, Dragonlance, etc.) were considered to be layers. Later, Spelljammer revamped this into "Crystal Spheres" separating the settings, giving us planets within the spheres for fantasy space age-of-sail shenanigans.

However, the Crystal Spheres could as easily be considered "layers" of the Prime as the various layers of Acheron are, which are separated by super-cubes that contain the lesser cubes that make up the plane.

Plane hopping magics don't drop you on random layers. They tend to drop you on the "world" you expected to be. Plane shift to the Prime when you expect to wind up on Grayhawk, and you wind up somewhere on Grayhawk, not on a random moon or inside the sun or in an empty void.

Therefore, you'll typically wind up, when banished by blasphemy, back on your home planet. Somewhere. That you can survive for more than a few minutes (i.e. land-based creatures will wind up somewhere they can stand).

[Psyren]

*Shrug* You say catapulted to safety, I say kill, paralyze and split the party so that the fiend is free to luxuriate in the violence of picking apart whatever's left behind.

Everyone can just voluntarily fail their save and be launched to freedom as a group. If the choice is that or stay facing an angry Balor on his home turf, I know which one I'd pick.


Also...bit of a night owl huh? :p

Couldn't sleep so I was up reading Starfinder :smallbiggrin:

[thorr-kan]

In earlier editions of D&D (AD&D 1e, for instance), the Prime was considered to be layered, much like the Abyss, Heaven, Hell, etc. All the different settings (Grayhawk, Faerun, The Known World, Dragonlance, etc.) were considered to be layers. Later, Spelljammer revamped this into "Crystal Spheres" separating the settings, giving us planets within the spheres for fantasy space age-of-sail shenanigans.
Cite for that? I have absolutely no recollection of such a consideration. You've piqued my interest.

[thorr-kan]

Is anyone else hearing "BLAS-phe-my!" to the tune of "A-gon-y!" from the _Into the Woods_ musical?

Opening with Blasphemy makes perfect sense to me. Kill/disable/dismiss a group with one fell swoop. "Go away kid, you're bugging me."

[Segev]

Cite for that? I have absolutely no recollection of such a consideration. You've piqued my interest.

Away from books at the moment, but I recall it being in the "Planes" section of the 1e AD&D PHB.

[Crake]

The demonweb pits seem like a bad place to challenge fiends :smalleek:

...which sourcebook are you pulling the 2x CL from? Sounds like an interesting read.

The expedition to the demonweb pits adventure module. A DM of ours once tried to combine that with the 1st edition demonweb pits spell ****ery. It didn't go over too well.

[thorr-kan]

Away from books at the moment, but I recall it being in the "Planes" section of the 1e AD&D PHB.
That's possible. The "alternate worlds" and world creation index?

Before my time. I came in with 2ED.

[Gullintanni]

Everyone can just voluntarily fail their save and be launched to freedom as a group. If the choice is that or stay facing an angry Balor on his home turf, I know which one I'd pick.

This is exactly why you'd get Blasphemed - such cowardice isn't worthy of a fiend's higher SLAs :smalltongue:

Voluntarily failing saves is exactly the plan.

I'm banking on a Balor either not anticipating that particular plan, or, more importantly, not caring. If we meet a Balor on its home plane, it probably has a Blood War to get back to immediately after it sends us on our way. It gets XP from us either way after all :smallwink:

On the subject of Starfinder et. al. ...have you found Pathfinder worth the jump? How is PF non-core material, in terms of balance and flavor? Is it different enough to justify paying for a whole plethora of new sourcebooks?


The expedition to the demonweb pits adventure module. A DM of ours once tried to combine that with the 1st edition demonweb pits spell ****ery. It didn't go over too well.

Ahhh - fortunately my DMs tend to build their own campaign settings. Running into planar traits that double fiendish CL is unlikely. But that doesn't sound particularly player friendly.

[Psyren]

This is exactly why you'd get Blasphemed - such cowardice isn't worthy of a fiend's higher SLAs :smalltongue:

Voluntarily failing saves is exactly the plan.

I mean, you can use whatever labels you want - the fact remains that fighting in the Abyss when there is any real doubt as to the outcome is suicide. Worse than suicide, since any number of nasties and planar traits down there can keep your soul from leaving, or destroy it outright. So I would take my express ticket home with a smile if I wasn't assured of victory.



I'm banking on a Balor either not anticipating that particular plan, or, more importantly, not caring. If we meet a Balor on its home plane, it probably has a Blood War to get back to immediately after it sends us on our way. It gets XP from us either way after all :smallwink:

Monsters don't get XP from overcoming challenges, rather they advance when the DM wants them to.



On the subject of Starfinder et. al. ...have you found Pathfinder worth the jump? How is PF non-core material, in terms of balance and flavor? Is it different enough to justify paying for a whole plethora of new sourcebooks?

You actually don't have to pay at all - between d20pfsrd, AoN, and paizo's own PRD, all the rules are available for free (legally) online. The question of whether to shell out is up to you of course.e

[Gullintanni]

I mean, you can use whatever labels you want - the fact remains that fighting in the Abyss when there is any real doubt as to the outcome is suicide. Worse than suicide, since any number of nasties and planar traits down there can keep your soul from leaving, or destroy it outright. So I would take my express ticket home with a smile if I wasn't assured of victory.



Monsters don't get XP from overcoming challenges, rather they advance when the DM wants them to.


I guess that's what I get for not using the blue font huh? :smalltongue:

[Anthrowhale]

A moderately high level party (15+) of the sort which intentionally visits the abyss seems like they could effectively take advantage of the blasphemy ride. They should all have a necklace of adaptation (9k) making the immediate environment likely nonlethal. They may also have permanency telepathic bond (12.5K/pair) which implies that scattering all over a plane requires just a day of collecting everyone together via greater teleport.

[Segev]

That's possible. The "alternate worlds" and world creation index?

Before my time. I came in with 2ED.

Frustratingly, my 1e books aren't on the shelf I thought they were. Which means they're burried somewhere amongst my history of moving since I started living on my own back in College. >_<

[Anthrowhale]

... the demonweb pits DOUBLES the CL of evil spells...

Offtopic, this with the spells Touch of the Blackened Soul and Planar Bubble make natives of the Demonweb supervaluable for buffing routines. (Alternatively, I guess you can visit the Demonweb every time you want to buff...)