Who would win the Tarrasque or Titian?

[Savarin]

I was looking through my monster manual for new encounters to keep my games interesting when I went by the nice happy Tarrasque just look at his smile :smallbiggrin:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2a0qqq.jpg

Tarrasque
Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 48d10+594 (858 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 35 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +30 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+81
Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3)
Full Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3) and 2 horns +52 melee (1d10+8) and 2 claws +52 melee (1d12+8) and tail slap +52 melee (3d8+8)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Listen +17, Search +9, Spot +17, Survival +14 (+16 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness (6)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 49+ HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —
The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons.

The tarrasque cannot speak.

Combat
The tarrasque attacks with its claws, teeth, horns, and tail.

The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Augmented Critical (Ex)
The tarrasque’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Frightful Presence (Su)
The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, the tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Rush (Ex)
Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet.

Swallow Whole (Ex)
The tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque’s digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The tarrasque’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Carapace (Ex)
The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Skills
The tarrasque has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.]


Or a titan because of spells and such?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/00/a7/c0/00a7c0585796bcae6b05a98de4c70ab0.png]

Titan
Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 20d8+280 (370 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. in half-plate armor (8 squares); base speed 60 ft.
Armor Class: 38 (-2 size, +19 natural, +11 +4 half-plate armor), touch 8, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+44
Attack: Gargantuan +3 adamantine warhammer +37 melee (4d6+27/×3) or +3 javelin +22 ranged (2d6+19) or slam +34 melee (1d8+16)
Full Attack: Gargantuan +3 adamantine warhammer +37/+32/+27/+22 melee (4d6+27/×3) or +3 javelin +22 ranged (2d6+19) or 2 slams +34 melee (1d8+16)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Oversized weapon, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Change shape, damage reduction 15/lawful, darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +13, Will +21
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 12, Con 39, Int 21, Wis 28, Cha 24
Skills: Balance +7, Bluff +19, Climb +22, Concentration +37, Craft (any one) +28, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Heal +20, Intimidate +32, Jump +38, Knowledge (any one) +28, Listen +32, Perform (oratory) +30, Sense Motive +32, Search +28, Spellcraft +17, Spot +32, Survival +9 (+11 following tracks), Swim +16
Feats: Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning)
Environment: A chaotic good-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 21
Treasure: Double standard plus +4 half-plate armor and Gargantuan +3 adamantine warhammer
Alignment: Always chaotic (any)
Advancement: 21-30 HD (Huge); 31-60 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —
A titan is about 25 feet tall and weighs about 14,000 pounds.

Titans speak Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant.

Combat
A titan’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Oversized Weapon (Ex)
A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—chain lightning (DC 23), charm monster (DC 21), cure critical wounds (DC 21), fire storm (DC 24), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 22), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 22); 3/day—etherealness, word of chaos (DC 22), summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day—gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

In addition, titans of good or neutral alignment can use the following additional spell-like abilities
At will—daylight, holy smite (DC 21), remove curse (DC 21); 1/day—greater restoration. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Titans of evil alignment can use the following additional spell-like abilities
At will—bestow curse (DC 21), deeper darkness, unholy blight (DC 21); 1/day—crushing hand (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Change Shape (Su)
A titan can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. The titan retains its oversized weapon special attack regardless of form.

Tactics Round-By-Round
Titans enjoy combat and usually close with their foes. If that proves ineffective, they swiftly back off and pelt the foe with spell-like abilities and magical effects. Because of a titan’s Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, it can use chain lightning as a free action, and frequently attacks in melee while lashing out with this ability at the same time.

Prior to combat: Invisibility purge or invisibility.
Round 1: Charge and attempt to sunder the weapon of the most dangerous foe. Hurl chain lightning at opponents standing away from the fight.
Round 2: Full attack against the disarmed opponent, and hurl chain lightning at other opponents.
Round 3: Back away from first opponent and use maze or meteor swarm on any spellcaster causing trouble.
Round 4: Sunder the weapon of the next most effective combatant, or use greater dispel magic on all nearby opponents.
Round 5: Full attack against any nearby opponent, or use fire storm.
Use another quickened chain lightning if foes seem really dangerous.

A titan usually reserves its gate and etherealness abilities to escape a fight that is not going well.


Just curious I thought a Tarrasque would have won but became unsure after knowing Titans have spells like a wizard.

[ATHATH]

The Titan, because it has Gate as an SLA and can thus chain-gate Solars.

[Captn_Flounder]

Was thinking the Tarrasque of Titian was a Super Tarrasque templated to hell and back.

But yeah, Titan most definitely wins.

[Savarin]

The Titan, because it has Gate as an SLA and can thus chain-gate Solars.

Oh I thought the Tarrasque was stronger :/ I was thinking of Titan using a death spell and wish. Because I thought only a wish or miracle spell could kill a Tarrasque? Or his carapace helping idk though lol. I’m not to good with magic.

[Savarin]

Was thinking the Tarrasque of Titian was a Super Tarrasque templated to hell and back.

But yeah, Titan most definitely wins.

Ah my bad made thread in a little rush xD. So Tarrasque is wimpy?

[lord_khaine]

Ah my bad made thread in a little rush xD. So Tarrasque is wimpy?

Honestly yes, i think the current record is taking it down at level 6 without blatant cheese.

[Baby Gary]

Ah my bad made thread in a little rush xD. So Tarrasque is wimpy?

not necessarily, its just that spells are... so powerful, nothing can really stand up to a spellcaster (except another spellcaster)

[Savarin]

Lol that sucks I thought Tarrasque was the end all be able guy. If I put him in a area that negates magic then he should be okay xD.

Highest magic class I ever played was a Swordsage :p I’m not good with magic xD

[Captn_Flounder]

Lol that sucks I thought Tarrasque was the end all be able guy. If I put him in a area that negates magic then he should be okay xD.

Highest magic class I ever played was a Swordsage :p I’m not good with magic xD

Well, if you put him in a small underground pit like the Rancor so there is no way to just fly out of range, then yeah he can be mean.

An underground pit with a No Magic Field would just be ideal, but would take a mad freaking genius BBEG to set that junk up. Still, I highly optimized Ubercharger one-shots with his thousands of damage.

[Savarin]

Kk ty everyone for letting me know :) didn’t know they was that much of a gap between a cr 20 and cr 21!

[Captn_Flounder]

Kk ty everyone for letting me know :) didn’t know they was that much of a gap between a cr 20 and cr 21!

Its not that. It's that CR is such a bogus number it isn't applicable to nearly anything except a very, very rough outline of how it stacks up to an unoptimized party.

Things like the Tarrasque don't account for optimized casters and everyone and their mother having near permanent flight by level 10 or so.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Kk ty everyone for letting me know :) didn’t know they was that much of a gap between a cr 20 and cr 21!
It's not the gap between CR 20 and CR 21, it's the gap between magic and no-magic.

The fight is, admittedly, a little more fair without Gate in play, seeing as how it's one of the most powerful and open-ended spells in the game. I'm not sure the Titan can do much to put down the Tarrasque, but given that it can Change Shape into something with flight and/or cast Levitate and Etherealness, the Tarrasque sure as hell can't stop it. With at-will Cure Critical, even attrition isn't really a factor... probably a draw.

[AlanBruce]

The Tarrasque, when printed many, many years ago, was meant to be the menace its entry indicates. It is supposed to be a cataclysmic event, since it's unique and dormant most of the time. I think one of the many fluff material found around says it is a deific weapon or one that went rogue and the gods keep him asleep as much as they can. That's how terrible this guy is supposed to be...

However, the Tarrasque was designed in 2ed (to my knowledge) and later in 3.0 and 3.5. It did not translate well to 3.5, especially since he was an early release (that is, he was printed before the 20+ books 3.5 would spit out years later).

This means that the Tarrasque is indeed a menace- to anything not using material he does not have access to. The titan is in the same book, but it's an outsider- a very powerful one- they aren't meant to fight this thing because by fluff alone, they don't even hang out in the same reality.

There are many threads devoted to improving the Tarrasque. Looking at it's stat block in the SRD should be enough to warrant a change (6 Toughness feats?) if you wish to actually make it an end game device.

[Savarin]

It's not the gap between CR 20 and CR 21, it's the gap between magic and no-magic.

The fight is, admittedly, a little more fair without Gate in play, seeing as how it's one of the most powerful and open-ended spells in the game. I'm not sure the Titan can do much to put down the Tarrasque, but given that it can Change Shape into something with flight and/or cast Levitate and Etherealness, the Tarrasque sure as hell can't stop it. With at-will Cure Critical, even attrition isn't really a factor... probably a draw.

Why is Gate so strong? Also I thought his regen would have helped him a lot lol with his spell resistance also.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why is Gate so strong? Also I thought his regen would have helped him a lot lol with his spell resistance also.
They are helping him; it makes it very difficult for the Titan (a melee monster) to pummel it to death from safety with Chain Lightning. As for Gate... take a close look at the "Calling Creatures" section.

"pull the subject through, willing or unwilling."
"In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level"
"A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you."
"Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help."

Now start thinking of what sorts of things you can summon to help you that have 40 or fewer hit dice.

[Savarin]

They are helping him; it makes it very difficult for the Titan (a melee monster) to pummel it to death from safety with Chain Lightning. As for Gate... take a close look at the "Calling Creatures" section.

"pull the subject through, willing or unwilling."
"In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level"
"A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you."
"Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help."

Now start thinking of what sorts of things you can summon to help you that have 40 or fewer hit dice.
Can you teleport the Tarrasque into the sun? Lol

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can you teleport the Tarrasque into the sun? Lol
Plane shift can be used offensively. It requires a touch attack, and the tarrasque would get a Will save.


The tarrasque is so weak that all of its epic feats are just Toughness.

No seriously, look at the stat block. This guy has 48 HD. That's 16 feats, of which 9 epic feats. What are those feats? Alertness, Toughness (x6), Dodge. Seriously?

You can build a tarrasque much closer to CR 20 just by properly statting it up, though it will never be more than a beatstick. For example, a very basic (if somewhat inefficient) upgrade is Great Dexterity (x5) and Epic Speed, giving it an overall speed of 50', instead of that lousy 20'. More efficiently, you can give it Shape Soulmeld (x3), Bonus Essentia and Epic Essentia, and then open some chakras; tons of utility options are available (Keeneye Lenses bound to soul: true seeing; Pegasus Cloak bound to shoulders: fly speed up to 70' (average); Planar Ward: protection from X anti-mind control effect). Martial Study (x3) and Martial Stance can get you some additional utility as well (Shadow Blink, maybe Irresistible Mountain Strike, Assassin's Stance with Craven).

[Buufreak]

Honestly yes, i think the current record is taking it down at level 6 without blatant cheese.

Can I get a link to said build? I had it licked around 12 with ranger and flying mount.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can you teleport the Tarrasque into the sun? Lol
With Plane Shift? Not the sun, but you can dump him on the Plane of Negative Energy or something-- that would start loading him up with negative levels until he dies and becomes a wraith.

With Gate? Ehh... maybe. The spell states that "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord," so you can't automatically yank it through, but the thing also has Int 3, so it shouldn't be too hard to trick. The Titan could presumably Gate onto the Ethereal Plane or something, wait a day, make a Persistent Image of something lovely and destroyable-looking and open a Gate right in front of it. The Tarrasque sees a city full of steak-people, comes charging through, and promptly gets stuck.

[Savarin]

Kinda makes me feel bad for the Tarrasque. :smallfrown: I used to think he was really strong. Oh well I’m pretty sure someone out there made a Tarrasque with every possible template and made him Uber broken.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Kinda makes me feel bad for the Tarrasque. :smallfrown: I used to think he was really strong. Oh well I’m pretty sure someone out there made a Tarrasque with every possible template and made him Uber broken.
The Tarrasque is a terrifying melee brute without any real way to defend against things that can stay out of its reach.

[Savarin]

The Tarrasque is a terrifying melee brute without any real way to defend against things that can stay out of its reach.

So if we give him 120 perfect flying he can kill a titan?

[rel]

Don't be so sure, gate is really strong.
As an example you can gate in a solar and tell it to use its wish SLA to create a candle of invocation and use said candle to gate in another solar and tell the new solar to obey you.
Then you tell the new solar to do the same thing creating a third solar. and so on.

From here this thought experiment can go a few ways but no matter what the fight is now the Tarrasque vs a titan and an arbitrary number of solars.

[Knaight]

Kinda makes me feel bad for the Tarrasque. :smallfrown: I used to think he was really strong. Oh well I’m pretty sure someone out there made a Tarrasque with every possible template and made him Uber broken.

There are some fairly nasty builds on this forum where all people did was change what feats the Tarrasque has. Still, there's a few outright broken high level spells that provide a very large advantage against anything without them, regardless of their stats.

[Boci]

So if we give him 120 perfect flying he can kill a titan?

Only if the titan fights to the death. If they don't mind the dishonour of retreating they can turn ethereal, or shapechange into a burrowing creature.

[Savarin]

Endless gating seems like cheating lol. Magic is way to confusing lol I always had troubles with it. Any tips to actually understand it?

[rel]

In my experience, magic IS cheating.

A great start to understanding 3.5 magic is reading the Magic chapter in the PHB as many times as it takes you to internalise it.

You can skip the spell descriptions at first and just focus on the basic rules.

From there you can probably start playing and learn (read the spells on your spell list) as you go.

[Savarin]

In my experience, magic IS cheating.

A great start to understanding 3.5 magic is reading the Magic chapter in the PHB as many times as it takes you to internalise it.

You can skip the spell descriptions at first and just focus on the basic rules.

From there you can probably start playing and learn (read the spells on your spell list) as you go.

Lol whenever I try that I fall asleep. XD whenever someone in my games cast magic I just relook it up takes some time but I understand what’s happening for the most part lol

[lord_khaine]

Can I get a link to said build? I had it licked around 12 with ranger and flying mount.

Its been a while, but do recall the builds. It was surprisingly simple. It did not involve much besides leadership, and arming all your followers with lasso's. You can use a lasso to impose a -4 penalty on dex, so enough hits from them paralyzed the Tarrasque.

[Boci]

Its been a while, but do recall the builds. It was surprisingly simple. It did not involve much besides leadership, and arming all your followers with lasso's. You can use a lasso to impose a -4 penalty on dex, so enough hits from them paralyzed the Tarrasque.

Penalties neither stack, nor can they reduce a stat below 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly yes, i think the current record is taking it down at level 6 without blatant cheese.I seem to remember a party of four level 4 wizards with wands of...I think CL 3 Empowered orb of acid with a metamagic reducer to reduce their wands to effective level 2 and using their own spell slots for alter self for flight. They couldn't keep it dead due to not having access to wish etc, but they could take it down without fail. They could also suppress its regeneration with trollbane.

I might be remembering it wrong. Might've been scorching ray or something.

[Boci]

I seem to remember a party of four level 4 wizards with wands of...I think CL 3 Empowered orb of acid with a metamagic reducer to reduce their wands to effective level 2 and using their own spell slots for alter self for flight. They couldn't keep it dead due to not having access to wish etc, but they could take it down without fail. They could also suppress its regeneration with trollbane.

I might be remembering it wrong. Might've been scorching ray or something.

Probably not scorching ray, the terrasque is immune to fire, and even if you can get past that, all rays are reflected back via its carapace.

Also Trollbane is an injury poison, you couldn't use it on a wand, and big T is immune to poisons, so the regeneration remains an issue. Empowered lesser orb of acid is only 13.5 points of damage on average. I don't think you can apply meta magic reducers to a wand, not without a special ability.

[flappeercraft]

The only powerful tarrasque I know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The only powerful tarrasque I know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e)That's nothing. Behold, the terror of the skies!

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1369/33/1369335869628.png

[rel]

3rd level as a cleric or wizard gets you the command undead spell.
Command an allip and have it attack the Tarrasque.

The allip is incorporeal and while the Tarrasques weapons count as magical for the purposes of overcoming DR they are not actually magic.

The Tarrasque cannot hurt the allip but with its temperment and intelligence will likely keep futilely trying to hit it instead of running off or switching targets.

The allip can hurt the Tarrasque. Its attack targets touch AC and causes wisdom drain.
There is no save and no SR and while the Tarrasque is immune to energy drain and ability damage it is susceptible to ability drain.

In a minute or two the Tarrasques wisdom will be drained and after that it falls unconscious and remains that way until someone casts restoration on it.

Tarrasque defeated.


The best part is this is actually a fun adventure:

At level 3 getting the spell, finding and commanding an Allip and deploying it against a Tarrasque without drawing aggro are all fun and challenging encounters.

[Boci]

The Tarrasque cannot hurt the allip but with its temperment and intelligence will likely keep futilely trying to hit it instead of running off or switching targets.


That's the only sticky point with the tactics, and there's no good answer because it depends on how animals react to mental stat drain. At intelligence 3, Big T is smarter than a tiger, who will likely retreat from an undefeatable enemy, if they can figure out they are being hurt. The DM could rule that the terrasque will withdraw once it takes its first dose of wisdom drain.

[SirNibbles]

Penalties neither stack, nor can they reduce a stat below 1.

They do stack and they can reduce a stat below 1. Penalties from the same effect don't stack (you can only Entangle a creature once- it won't be double or triple Entangled).

[icefractal]

Endless Gating isn't really something that can happen in a game, because it makes things literally unplayable as soon as both sides of a fight have it.

But even setting all NI stuff aside, the Titan can easily stay safe from the Tarrasque, and has various ways to at least put it out of commission, although directly slaying it might be hard.

If you want a melee monster who stands a chance, try a Great Wyrm.

[ATHATH]

Endless Gating isn't really something that can happen in a game, because it makes things literally unplayable as soon as both sides of a fight have it.

But even setting all NI stuff aside, the Titan can easily stay safe from the Tarrasque, and has various ways to at least put it out of commission, although directly slaying it might be hard.

If you want a melee monster who stands a chance, try a Great Wyrm.
Heck, even without endless Gating, a single Gated Solar should be able to wreck the Tarrasque easily, especially since its Wish SLA can be used to keep the Tarrasque dead.

[Boci]

They do stack and they can reduce a stat below 1. Penalties from the same effect don't stack (you can only Entangle a creature once- it won't be double or triple Entangled).

My mistake, you are correct, the followers with lassos doesn't work, but multiple penalties from different sources would.

[lord_khaine]

3rd level as a cleric or wizard gets you the command undead spell.
Command an allip and have it attack the Tarrasque.

The allip is incorporeal and while the Tarrasques weapons count as magical for the purposes of overcoming DR they are not actually magic.

The Tarrasque cannot hurt the allip but with its temperment and intelligence will likely keep futilely trying to hit it instead of running off or switching targets.

The allip can hurt the Tarrasque. Its attack targets touch AC and causes wisdom drain.
There is no save and no SR and while the Tarrasque is immune to energy drain and ability damage it is susceptible to ability drain.

In a minute or two the Tarrasques wisdom will be drained and after that it falls unconscious and remains that way until someone casts restoration on it.

Tarrasque defeated.


The best part is this is actually a fun adventure:

At level 3 getting the spell, finding and commanding an Allip and deploying it against a Tarrasque without drawing aggro are all fun and challenging encounters.

This does indeed also work, though the problem here is that an Allip is not a piece of starting gear, nor as i can recall, anything you can summon. So you need to go on a quest to find one. And you need the GM to actually let you find one.

[Boci]

This does indeed also work, though the problem here is that an Allip is not a piece of starting gear, nor as i can recall, anything you can summon. So you need to go on a quest to find one. And you need the GM to actually let you find one.

Libris mortis allows you to summon it with Summon Undead 3 (3rd level spell). Otherwise, yeah, quest to find one and control undead it.

[Eldariel]

The Tarrasque, when printed many, many years ago, was meant to be the menace its entry indicates. It is supposed to be a cataclysmic event, since it's unique and dormant most of the time. I think one of the many fluff material found around says it is a deific weapon or one that went rogue and the gods keep him asleep as much as they can. That's how terrible this guy is supposed to be...

However, the Tarrasque was designed in 2ed (to my knowledge) and later in 3.0 and 3.5. It did not translate well to 3.5, especially since he was an early release (that is, he was printed before the 20+ books 3.5 would spit out years later).

This means that the Tarrasque is indeed a menace- to anything not using material he does not have access to. The titan is in the same book, but it's an outsider- a very powerful one- they aren't meant to fight this thing because by fluff alone, they don't even hang out in the same reality.

Eh, PHB is all you need to annihilate it like the dolt that it is. It's just a melee brute. Melee brutes are obsolete by level 20. They're more or less obsolete by level 10 as it happens. A single 9th level spell (Shapechange) would kill any number of Tarrasques. Gate too - just Gate in Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) and have it setup a Tarrasque death match while you watch and cheer. You get it for 20 rounds at no checks. Core also includes Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) which can be used to permanently take over the body; much better use for an immortal body.

All you need to do is overcome its SR and have it fail a Will-save; trivial by level 20 (Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, level of Archmage gives you +26 to the CL check - Robe of the Archmagi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeoftheArchmagi) would push that to +28 and if you also pop Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads), you're rolling +32 vs. its SR of 32 - and you can have 38 Int for DC 29 Will-save, which it will fail soon enough; you can Dominate it first to buy time and order it to fail the save, or Heighten Magic Jar to increase the DC. Though you can do it much earlier but it takes more work; Red Wizard [DMG] for example can hit CL 40 by character level 10.

Either way, you take over Big T's body and move its soul to the Jar. Then you just cast a second Magic Jar leaving Tarrasque's body as the host, and while you're inside the second Jar, have a minion break the first instance of Magic Jar with Big T out of range. The spell ends but nothing happens to you (since the spell specifies you only die if you're in a host or the Magic Jar). Then return to Tarrasque and congrats, you've replace the Tarrasque with a level 20 Wizard Tarrasque which is a much more frightening prospect (Psion with True Mind Switch can easily do this too for a Psionic Tarrasque).

[AlanBruce]

Eh, PHB is all you need to annihilate it like the dolt that it is. It's just a melee brute. Melee brutes are obsolete by level 20. They're more or less obsolete by level 10 as it happens. A single 9th level spell (Shapechange) would kill any number of Tarrasques. Gate too - just Gate in Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) and have it setup a Tarrasque death match while you watch and cheer. You get it for 20 rounds at no checks. Core also includes Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) which can be used to permanently take over the body; much better use for an immortal body.

All you need to do is overcome its SR and have it fail a Will-save; trivial by level 20 (Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, level of Archmage gives you +26 to the CL check - Robe of the Archmagi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeoftheArchmagi) would push that to +28 and if you also pop Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads), you're rolling +32 vs. its SR of 32 - and you can have 38 Int for DC 29 Will-save, which it will fail soon enough; you can Dominate it first to buy time and order it to fail the save, or Heighten Magic Jar to increase the DC. Though you can do it much earlier but it takes more work; Red Wizard [DMG] for example can hit CL 40 by character level 10.

Either way, you take over Big T's body and move its soul to the Jar. Then you just cast a second Magic Jar leaving Tarrasque's body as the host, and while you're inside the second Jar, have a minion break the first instance of Magic Jar with Big T out of range. The spell ends but nothing happens to you (since the spell specifies you only die if you're in a host or the Magic Jar). Then return to Tarrasque and congrats, you've replace the Tarrasque with a level 20 Wizard Tarrasque which is a much more frightening prospect (Psion with True Mind Switch can easily do this too for a Psionic Tarrasque).

Very true. All those tactics and resources came out along with the Tarrasque, at the same time. It is sad, however, that the designers, who meant to "scare" if you will the PCs by placing a creature that is not only unique but supposedly a world ender, can be taken down pretty much by one caster and an allip, when the creature itself has the potential to be the central plot for an entire campaign.

[Fizban]

The Tarrasque's unspoken weakness, is that the players even know what the Tarrasque is. It is entirely out of game knowledge that lets one know the exact spell required to summon the exact monster that has the one ability that will perfectly cut through the oversight in the Tarrasque's otherwise broad immunities, or know exactly how much DPS they need to do while staying exactly how far away. Presented as intended, as a sudden threat that must be stopped on its own terms, on a timetable, by people who don't know it's stats, the Tarrasque is pretty dang scary.

Consider: the BBEG finishes his ritual (it triggered upon his death, the cheater) and summons the Crawling Spaghetti Monster. It can't fly, but everything you throw at it either does nothing, bounces off, or heals away. It beats the crap out of anything that gets within reach, jumps into the air and swallows someone whole when they thought they were out of reach, and is going to eat the city if you don't stop it in time. You have to figure out how to stop it.

You have to figure out how to stop it.

Duh, when you've already looked up the answer online there's nothing to worry about.

[Eldan]

The problem is that even then, starting with a wall of force is really quite an obvious starting point. And a tarrasque can't deal with those. If not that, the Tarrasque is quite slow, so a Wizard would probably be able to go through a half-dozen different save or suck spells until he found one that worked. Digging a hole, too, is not an especially unusual tactic.

Really, all you need to deal with a Tarrasque is think about real world tactics to deal with a tiger or bear and scale them up.

[Boci]

The Tarrasque's unspoken weakness, is that the players even know what the Tarrasque is. It is entirely out of game knowledge that lets one know the exact spell required to summon the exact monster that has the one ability that will perfectly cut through the oversight in the Tarrasque's otherwise broad immunities, or know exactly how much DPS they need to do while staying exactly how far away. Presented as intended, as a sudden threat that must be stopped on its own terms, on a timetable, by people who don't know it's stats, the Tarrasque is pretty dang scary.

Consider: the BBEG finishes his ritual (it triggered upon his death, the cheater) and summons the Crawling Spaghetti Monster. It can't fly, but everything you throw at it either does nothing, bounces off, or heals away. It beats the crap out of anything that gets within reach, jumps into the air and swallows someone whole when they thought they were out of reach, and is going to eat the city if you don't stop it in time. You have to figure out how to stop it.

You have to figure out how to stop it.

Duh, when you've already looked up the answer online there's nothing to worry about.

Yes, and that's a major weakness. A monster that relies on players not knowing its secrets is.....kinda lame, because players are going to know those secrets eventually after playing the game for some time, its inevitable. You can say it was "intended" to be catch players by surprise, and you're probably right, but it was extremely short sighted of the writers to base a monsters place in the game on the unknown factor, when, its stats are in a core book.

Now compare to a CR: 20+ dragon. Does knowing it states rob a little from the impact of the encounter? A little sure. Does it make the encounter a little easier? Yes. Does it trivialize the encounter? No, absolutely not. Dragons are versatile and intelligent opponents, knowing their stat block by heart still leaves a powerful opponent to deal with, an no obvious loophole.

[Gnaeus]

I would have said rather that not knowing it’s weaknesses is a foolish strength at CR20. It’s a legendary thing, so a stupid high knowledge check should get you what you need, because people have fought it before. Otherwise, it’s not immune to divination, and not very smart. You could throw planar bound junk at it in waves while an imp lurks invisibly at 300 feet writing down what happens until you know what it’s weaknesses are. Or just communes.

[Fizban]

Wall of Force lasts 1 round/level, even assuming the 40'x40 creature can't step over or around a wall that is only one 10' square/level. Forcecage is too small.

A CR20 dragon does not in fact have a complete statblock, since the DM has to fill in all the feats and spells. Fighting a dragon is always like fighting a unique NPC, because every dragon is a unique NPC. Going by a quick glance at reds, a dragon with only 5th level spells at caster level 11th is not going to be as memorable as something that's immune to almost everything, nor is it as good in a fight when the Tarrasque has an extra +20 or so on attacks. The dragon has flight, a breath weapon type which actually should be well known, and some support spells. It's not a threat scary in it's uniquness, it's just a unique threat that's pretty scary.

If your response to seeing the Tarrasque's defenses is to begin either divining or systematically checking for weaknesses, congratulations, the Tarrasque is being dealt with appropriately. You have expended resources to defeat a foe, which either threatened you or something designated important while you did so. If the DM built the scenario well, you probably still had to fight it for a bit first.

As for knowing how to beat things from previous gaming experience: people still challenge the Tomb of Horrors, even though from what I understand it's mostly gotcha tricks they've read about online. Vampire domination gaze and weaknesses, ridiculous mimic creatures, Aboleth slime that'll kill you if you didn't bring the right spell. No one says these monsters are bad because their tricks are known to the community.

The Tarrasque is maligned because it's a melee monster with a particular glaring hole in its immunities with a particular glaring spell that can exploit, the exact thing people love to nitpick about. If it had just a couple more lines of immunities, the talk would shift entirely to how it's "just a melee brute" and you can kite it like any 1st level melee brute, and that talk never goes away because theory-crafting always looks at the monster first without a scenario, when melee monsters are always dependent on their scenario.

Spoilers for World's Largest Dungeon:
WLD has the Tarrasque in it of course, and it's in a scenario that is not conductive to auto-win theorycrafting. WLD takes place entirely underground, with extradimensional travel (including summoning) blocked, and the party can't just go back to town and buy whatever they want. The region with the Tarrasque is marked as 14th-18th level, meaning the party can show up significantly below 20th, and divination spells either fail or fail hard. When the party enters the region they are unaware of its presence, at which point the DM begins tracking time. If the party does not stop it in time, the bad thing happens.

No arbitrarily kiting it from the air, no running back to town to buy the perfect thing, no instantly figuring out its weakness, in fact no summoning allips even if you knew about that weakness. You either avoid fighting the Tarrasque, or you fight the Tarrasque.
Now in that, an actual Tarrasque scenario, I don't see things going well for the Titan. It can out dps the Tarrasque's regeneration, but only just, and in order to heal himself he has to give up a round of damage. The Tarrasque can power attack for 15 and still land every hit, completely swinging a melee in his favor- except Swallow Whole is also a thing. Big T only needs one attack, while the Titan can't afford to miss even a single round of damage while jockeying for position. He makes a mistake (such as not already knowing about Rush) and it's over.

[Boci]

Vampire domination gaze and weaknesses, ridiculous mimic creatures, Aboleth slime that'll kill you if you didn't bring the right spell. No one says these monsters are bad because their tricks are known to the community.

These monsters also aren't also hyped up the way the way Big T is.

[Fizban]

Eh, I can't say I've read the fluff all that many times, but fair point. Fluffing something as an unstoppable world-killer while deliberately making it stoppable is kinda dumb. I see dragons as way, way more hyped myself. I'll take a dragon over a Tarrasque or a Nycaloth any day.

[Eldariel]

The big problem with Big T is, it's not immune to the single most obvious attack against big dumb brutes: mind control. It's the first thing I'd try and sadly quite likely to work. Be it Dominate Monster or Magic Jar is kinda one and the same: if you try Will SoLs on it, you'll succeed relatively soon. If its weakness weren't the literal first thing you'd think to use against it, it would be more imposing. As it stands, it's a good body to wear if you want near invulnerability. Also the other obvious option: if it shrugs off stuff, you just gotta hit it harder. Which incidentally works just fine: its DR and Reg have fairly low values by ECL 20 standards.

Titan without summoning is another thing but removing an SLA user's biggest SLA is not really a fair comparison. That said, it still has the Wish. Fighting doesn't mean mindlessly bashing heads against things with bigger muscles than you after all.

[Boci]

Eh, I can't say I've read the fluff all that many times, but fair point. Fluffing something as an unstoppable world-killer while deliberately making it stoppable is kinda dumb. I see dragons as way, way more hyped myself. I'll take a dragon over a Tarrasque or a Nycaloth any day.

Dragons are way more hyped, its in the name after all, but as you said, they are a unique encounter every time thanks to their unfinished state block. Its fine to have monsters with major weaknesses and its okay to have monsters hyped up. Mixing the two however tends to end badly.

Additionally, vampires whilst they possess obvious weaknesses, there are two difference between them and the terrasuque, in addition to vampires not being so hyped in their fluff.

1. Vampires got splat support to subvert or even overcome these weaknesses

2. Vampires had the intelligence and means to use these resources

[Eldan]

Actually, the most hilarious way of temporarily stopping a Tarrasque is a Grease spell. Or Reverse Gravity.

[Fizban]

Mind Control: SR 32 and Will save +20 say isn't very likely to hit. With Dominate Monster, you've got say DC 30 and CL 22. That's 45% fail on the save, 45% fail on the SR, net 20% chance of success*. If you can spend 5 or more rounds spamming various mind controls sure, you'll land one eventually, as you would against literally anything else you're allowed to spam save or die until it grips, or you might luck out first round. That's not a "weakness," that's "being something with stats in DnD." If you're facing it in the WLD scenario, you'd better hope you land that 20%. And that hasn't solved the problem of course, since it can ignore obviously self-destructive orders, gets new saves for those "against its nature," and still needs to be beat down and Wished dead.

I actually wonder how people would react if the Tarrasque did have immunity to everything except hp damage by weapon attacks. I expect there would be lots of crying foul about the stupid plot device "monster" that only allows one way to fight it. There was a guy a while back who wrote his own super invincible monster, tried to write out a massive laundry list of everything it was immune to and a bunch of fancy escape clauses. I told him he should just write "does not die, ever" and be done with it, because he still had loopholes, but instead he refused to believe those loopholes existed (the solution was to have a Colossus grapple and punch it in the face for eternity).

The point being, I don't think any amount of immunity will ever satisfy theorycrafters, so it's silly to complain about a tough monster lacking some "critical" immunity. The whole point is that it is stoppable, by multiple methods, because otherwise it wouldn't be a monster. So why is it bad that you're allowed to fight it exactly? If you want something unstoppable then all you have to do is write "unstoppable" on it. If you want something that's eats people and is really hard to kill unless you know the trick, there's the Tarrasque.

*No, I don't care about splatbook spells and races with +win int. Those builds can go fight an optimized Tarrasque.

[Boci]

The point being, I don't think any amount of immunity will ever satisfy theorycrafters, so it's silly to complain about a tough monster lacking some "critical" immunity.

The Big T isn't just "a tough monster". If it were, people wouldn't complain about it since as you noted, many monster are vulnerable to having spells spammed at them until they fail save. All of them in fact. But the Big T is unique and legendary. Being forced to a stalemate by flight doesn't mesh well with that.

The Elder Evils for example, whilst far from perfect, are mechanically much closer to what the fluff of the Big T is.

[Fizban]

And were printed 4 years later.

[Gnaeus]

As for knowing how to beat things from previous gaming experience: people still challenge the Tomb of Horrors, even though from what I understand it's mostly gotcha tricks they've read about online. Vampire domination gaze and weaknesses, ridiculous mimic creatures, Aboleth slime that'll kill you if you didn't bring the right spell. No one says these monsters are bad because their tricks are known to the community.

The Tarrasque is maligned because it's a melee monster with a particular glaring hole in its immunities with a particular glaring spell that can exploit, the exact thing people love to nitpick about. If it had just a couple more lines of immunities, the talk would shift entirely to how it's "just a melee brute" and you can kite it like any 1st level melee brute, and that talk never goes away because theory-crafting always looks at the monster first without a scenario, when melee monsters are always dependent on their scenario.

Spoilers for World's Largest Dungeon:
WLD has the Tarrasque in it of course, and it's in a scenario that is not conductive to auto-win theorycrafting. WLD takes place entirely underground, with extradimensional travel (including summoning) blocked, and the party can't just go back to town and buy whatever they want. The region with the Tarrasque is marked as 14th-18th level, meaning the party can show up significantly below 20th, and divination spells either fail or fail hard. When the party enters the region they are unaware of its presence, at which point the DM begins tracking time. If the party does not stop it in time, the bad thing happens.

No arbitrarily kiting it from the air, no running back to town to buy the perfect thing, no instantly figuring out its weakness, in fact no summoning allips even if you knew about that weakness. You either avoid fighting the Tarrasque, or you fight the Tarrasque.
Now in that, an actual Tarrasque scenario, I don't see things going well for the Titan. It can out dps the Tarrasque's regeneration, but only just, and in order to heal himself he has to give up a round of damage. The Tarrasque can power attack for 15 and still land every hit, completely swinging a melee in his favor- except Swallow Whole is also a thing. Big T only needs one attack, while the Titan can't afford to miss even a single round of damage while jockeying for position. He makes a mistake (such as not already knowing about Rush) and it's over.

I give virtually no weight to what “community” knows, and a lot of weight to what characters know. It’s a legendary thing. A DC 58 knowledge check isn’t that hard for a wizard of that level, bardic knowledge is a thing etc.

And as for the WLD stuff, it is worth exactly 0. Saying that one notoriously poorly written dungeon has a ton of house rules that make it a challenge is about like saying that it is a balanced monster because in my game I rewrote its entire stat block. And that kobolds are stupidly overpowered because in my game they have 145 HD each. It’s got Oberoni fallacy written all over it.

[VoxRationis]

The tarrasque would beat Titian, hands-down. I can't imagine that guy was more than a 5th-level expert, and all of his feats were probably Skill Focus and the like.

[Eldariel]

Mind Control: SR 32 and Will save +20 say isn't very likely to hit. With Dominate Monster, you've got say DC 30 and CL 22. That's 45% fail on the save, 45% fail on the SR, net 20% chance of success*. If you can spend 5 or more rounds spamming various mind controls sure, you'll land one eventually, as you would against literally anything else you're allowed to spam save or die until it grips, or you might luck out first round. That's not a "weakness," that's "being something with stats in DnD." If you're facing it in the WLD scenario, you'd better hope you land that 20%. And that hasn't solved the problem of course, since it can ignore obviously self-destructive orders, gets new saves for those "against its nature," and still needs to be beat down and Wished dead.

I actually wonder how people would react if the Tarrasque did have immunity to everything except hp damage by weapon attacks. I expect there would be lots of crying foul about the stupid plot device "monster" that only allows one way to fight it. There was a guy a while back who wrote his own super invincible monster, tried to write out a massive laundry list of everything it was immune to and a bunch of fancy escape clauses. I told him he should just write "does not die, ever" and be done with it, because he still had loopholes, but instead he refused to believe those loopholes existed (the solution was to have a Colossus grapple and punch it in the face for eternity).

The point being, I don't think any amount of immunity will ever satisfy theorycrafters, so it's silly to complain about a tough monster lacking some "critical" immunity. The whole point is that it is stoppable, by multiple methods, because otherwise it wouldn't be a monster. So why is it bad that you're allowed to fight it exactly? If you want something unstoppable then all you have to do is write "unstoppable" on it. If you want something that's eats people and is really hard to kill unless you know the trick, there's the Tarrasque.

*No, I don't care about splatbook spells and races with +win int. Those builds can go fight an optimized Tarrasque.

Core Human Wizard can have 34 Int effortlessly. 18 + 5 + 5 + 6. That's DC31 with no Spell Foci, PAO, age or whatever. And Core Wizard WILL have Greater Spell Penetration on 20 since literally everything has SR and Assay Resistance isn't Core. 5 rounds my ass, it's 2-3 at best. And you can just Irresistible Dance it first (use Quickened Spectral Hand if you have no Tumble) if you literally want to stand there. 95% to hit touch and 75% to succeed vs. SR (+26 vs. SR32) And you probably have a Luckblade for a reroll on either by now - potentially even Robe making SR even more of a wash. Either one hits its beyond obvious weaknesses (Touch AC, Will save).

And you totally solved the problem. Then you just walk through the dungeon with a Big T toy killing all the basic martial enemies you face leaving you with just the caster/incorp types. Why the bloody hell would you kill it? Much rather keep it for subsequent Grand Theft Body or such. Though if you really want to, Dance it and have some high Str form/character/whatever (turn into a Titan for all I care) use CDG with a scythe and see it try to make DC100+ Fort. But why kill things you can use? Simple dolts are the epitome of Wizard arsenal and Big T is the epitome of simple dolts.

Look up Epic Handbook abominations to see what world enders' immunity blocks should look like. Divine wrath shouldn't have glaring obvious Achilles' Heels. They can have weaknesses but they need to be covert taking effort to both, detect and abuse. E.g. some weak spot inside the Big T requiring DC50 Spot/Search check or whatever to find - some divine "failsafe". Not the literal first spell you'd want to use on it. The fact that it can't hit incorporeals, the fact that it's big and clumsy, the fact that it's slow and dumb, the fact that it can't breach Force effect...there are plenty of ways to fight it even if you can't just point and click it dead.

[Boci]

And were printed 4 years later.

Yes, turns out people make better apocalypse monsters when they understand the system better, who knew?

[icefractal]

I should note, it's only CR 20, so if you fight it at 20th level it's not even claiming to be a big threat. At level 15-16 it would supposedly be quite dangerous - and I think to a party who's not that optimized and not specifically prepared to fight it, it easily could be.

[Malacandra]

The tarrasque would beat Titian, hands-down. I can't imagine that guy was more than a 5th-level expert, and all of his feats were probably Skill Focus and the like.

Well, give him a set of marvellous pigments and it's not so clear cut. 5th-level expert but his painting skill has to be mythic level.

[rel]

The issues with the tarrasque begin with its CR, it is listed as CR 20 but it is far less able to threaten a party of adventurers than all the other high level challenges in its own monster manual.

Balors, pit fiends and night crawlers are far more credible as a challange to a high level party.
Even comparatively lower CR creatures like mariliths and planetars seem more effective.

Even in a core only and unoptimised game the tarrasque simply lacks the tools to deal with the expected attacks and defences of a high level party.

Further unlike most other high level threats, it is stupid and single minded. The stories you can tell and the monsters responses to PC tactics are limited.

My fix would actually be to make the Tarrasque weaker. Tweak the combat numbers and fluff, give it a few interesting tricks and drop its CR to the 10 to 15 range.

[zergling.exe]

The issues with the tarrasque begin with its CR, it is listed as CR 20 but it is far less able to threaten a party of adventurers than all the other high level challenges in its own monster manual.

Balors, pit fiends and night crawlers are far more credible as a challange to a high level party.
Even comparatively lower CR creatures like mariliths and planetars seem more effective.

Even in a core only and unoptimised game the tarrasque simply lacks the tools to deal with the expected attacks and defences of a high level party.

Further unlike most other high level threats, it is stupid and single minded. The stories you can tell and the monsters responses to PC tactics are limited.

My fix would actually be to make the Tarrasque weaker. Tweak the combat numbers and fluff, give it a few interesting tricks and drop its CR to the 10 to 15 range.

For the Tarrasque's fluff, a level 15 party is actually the highest level it should be thrown against. While this doesn't account for how the party will get access to wish to get rid of it, it does put it at an overpowering difficulty. The average level 20 party should be able to handle 4 Tarrasques, without rest.

[Grod_The_Giant]

CR is inconsistent, it should be noted. Things like dragons are stronger then other things of equal CR because they're supposed to be bosses. The Tarrasque has really high numbers compared to things like the Titan...

In any case, one fun easy fix might be a special "cloaked in storm" ability. A big, supernaturally powerful and terrifying thunderstorm. With rain and darkness to block sight beyond a hundred feet or so, with massive winds that ground flying creatures and ruin ranged attacks-- even magical ones. Let the party get caught and grounded by the storm before the Tarrasque (who CAN see through it all) comes pounding out of the chaos, ripping and tearing and swallowing someone whole before retreating back under the cover of the storm to heal. That should deal with a bunch of the most common strategies a fun and thematic way.

[Ualaa]

I'd give it a boss ability, from the original Everquest game.
Basically, if you're the top of it's threat... the target that it wants to kill the most, and you're out of it's reach, you automatically teleport right in front of it, at it's optimal range.
Make it an extraordinary ability, that functions without magic.

Let's combine that with magic (arcane, divine, psionic, anything else) automatically ceases to work, if you're in the combat against the Tarrasque.
Your stuff works fine elsewhere, but once you think about engaging the Tarrasque or someone puts the smallest effort into getting you into the battle, your magic stops working at that point.
No flight, no divination, no summons, no gates.
If you're ethereal, you're there and cannot affect it, if you're not ethereal you cannot go there.

Remove the requirement that you need to wish it to death.
But you still need to beat it to death, and overcome it's damage reduction and regeneration.

Sure, there are probably a bunch of builds that could do that.
If you're flying (not through magic) and happen to have something massively heavy (for falling damage), and it's more pissed off at something on the ground, so you're not suddenly a couple feet from it's mouth at an optimal height...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd give it a boss ability, from the original Everquest game.
Basically, if you're the top of it's threat... the target that it wants to kill the most, and you're out of it's reach, you automatically teleport right in front of it, at it's optimal range.
Make it an extraordinary ability, that functions without magic.

Let's combine that with magic (arcane, divine, psionic, anything else) automatically ceases to work, if you're in the combat against the Tarrasque.
Your stuff works fine elsewhere, but once you think about engaging the Tarrasque or someone puts the smallest effort into getting you into the battle, your magic stops working at that point.
No flight, no divination, no summons, no gates.
If you're ethereal, you're there and cannot affect it, if you're not ethereal you cannot go there.

Remove the requirement that you need to wish it to death.
But you still need to beat it to death, and overcome it's damage reduction and regeneration.

Sure, there are probably a bunch of builds that could do that.
If you're flying (not through magic) and happen to have something massively heavy (for falling damage), and it's more pissed off at something on the ground, so you're not suddenly a couple feet from it's mouth at an optimal height...So, PCs can't actually fight the thing at all.

...Why is it there, again?

[Pleh]

Actually, the most hilarious way of temporarily stopping a Tarrasque is a Grease spell. Or Reverse Gravity.

Seems a pretty liberal interpretation considering the Terrasque is not in the area of these spells, rather the spells are in the area of the terrasque.

Pretty sure at my table, Grease would have to be metamagic to cover a bigger area or the Terrasque would just lift their one foot out of the slick patch and succeed automatically on the reflex.

Reverse Gravity has a much better chance, but a Terrasque is described having 30ft space, and being 70ft long and 50ft tall.

30x70x50 is 105,000 cubic feet. Reverse Gravity gets 10 cubic ft per 2 levels, so without metamagic, that spell can still only hit 100 cubic feet at Wizard lvl 20.

100 cubic feet is just barely enough to cover the 30ft fighting space where the Terrasque's feet rest.

If only my feet up to my knees are falling up and the rest of me is falling down, I'm not going to suddenly pratfall: the rest of my bodyweight will help me balance. I might need to make balance checks to walk, but I'd say the Terrasque ought to be pretty safe here (again, unless you really work the metamagic in and get clever with cube placement).


Let the party get caught and grounded by the storm before the Tarrasque (who CAN see through it all) comes pounding out of the chaos, ripping and tearing and swallowing someone whole before retreating back under the cover of the storm to heal.

Oooo. "Stormsight" to automatically detect creatures caught in the storm. The rain is actually a "bag of flour" technique the terrasque uses.

[JNAProductions]

What DC would you peg those Balance checks at? Because the Tarrasque has a whopping +0 to them.

[rel]

CR is inconsistent, it should be noted. Things like dragons are stronger then other things of equal CR because they're supposed to be bosses. The Tarrasque has really high numbers compared to things like the Titan...

In any case, one fun easy fix might be a special "cloaked in storm" ability. A big, supernaturally powerful and terrifying thunderstorm. With rain and darkness to block sight beyond a hundred feet or so, with massive winds that ground flying creatures and ruin ranged attacks-- even magical ones. Let the party get caught and grounded by the storm before the Tarrasque (who CAN see through it all) comes pounding out of the chaos, ripping and tearing and swallowing someone whole before retreating back under the cover of the storm to heal. That should deal with a bunch of the most common strategies a fun and thematic way.

This stops a lot of low level beat the tarrasque tricks depending on the exact wording of the final rule but doesn't seem to make the encounter more challenging or interesting for a level 20 party.

The way I see it the cause of the problem is that a big monster with + yes to hit and damage and a grab bag of immunities is not an appropriate CR 20 challenge.
The symptom of this is specific lower level parties can defeat the creature.

Padding out the Tarrasques immunities or adding special attacks or features to address one trick or another treats a symptom but does not address the root cause of the problem.


I'd give it a boss ability, from the original Everquest game.
Basically, if you're the top of it's threat... the target that it wants to kill the most, and you're out of it's reach, you automatically teleport right in front of it, at it's optimal range.
Make it an extraordinary ability, that functions without magic.

Let's combine that with magic (arcane, divine, psionic, anything else) automatically ceases to work, if you're in the combat against the Tarrasque.
Your stuff works fine elsewhere, but once you think about engaging the Tarrasque or someone puts the smallest effort into getting you into the battle, your magic stops working at that point.
No flight, no divination, no summons, no gates.
If you're ethereal, you're there and cannot affect it, if you're not ethereal you cannot go there.

Remove the requirement that you need to wish it to death.
But you still need to beat it to death, and overcome it's damage reduction and regeneration.

Sure, there are probably a bunch of builds that could do that.
If you're flying (not through magic) and happen to have something massively heavy (for falling damage), and it's more pissed off at something on the ground, so you're not suddenly a couple feet from it's mouth at an optimal height...

I'm not actually sure how these abilities would work. They don't match existing abilities or rules of the game so I am left with no point of reference.

[Pleh]

What DC would you peg those Balance checks at? Because the Tarrasque has a whopping +0 to them.

Assuming Grease was metamagic to even have a chance, DC is still only 10 to move half speed and falling only happens 20% of the time.

I don't see much precedent for balance with floating feet, but Grease seems as good as any. Why not use the same balance DC? 50% chance move at half speed, 30% chance stuck in place, 20% chance it falls over.

After all, there's a 20% chance of Mind Control working, right?

[enderlord99]

Speaking of things that beat the Tarrasque, who here remembers Madness?

[Fizban]

Reverse Gravity has a much better chance, but a Terrasque is described having 30ft space, and being 70ft long and 50ft tall.

30x70x50 is 105,000 cubic feet. Reverse Gravity gets 10 cubic ft per 2 levels, so without metamagic, that spell can still only hit 100 cubic feet at Wizard lvl 20.

100 cubic feet is just barely enough to cover the 30ft fighting space where the Terrasque's feet rest.
Correction: Reverse Gravity covers 10' cubes- that's 1,000 cubic feet per 2 levels. You need nine 10' cubes to cover the bottom of the Tarrasque's 30' space, so a cl 18 Reverse Gravity will mess it up for a bit on a failed save. That still leaves it floating merely 10' off the ground, well within melee reach to pull itself out of the area, probably at half speed or so thanks to the frictionless "surface."

Oooo. "Stormsight" to automatically detect creatures caught in the storm. The rain is actually a "bag of flour" technique the terrasque uses.
Fogs, snows, and smoke are very difficult to see through. Unless you specifically prepared Snowsight for snow or Fire Eyes (from Masters of the Wild) for smoke, and if a creature is constantly generating their effect then blowing away a fog doesn't help much. Even blindsight 60' won't help you against the Rush. If you don't want to have it threatening an underground doom timer, making it the focus of an apocalyptic storm works.

Speaking of Elder Evils: well yeah, if you expect it to compete with Elder Evils then maybe you should make it an Elder Evil. There's your immunity to divination+apocalyptic threat in the same package just for giving it the title- most of the greater warning signs will actually exterminate the population if allowed to remain active for even two or three days. Of course I was also under the impression most people weren't impressed with the Elder Evils, since they were tied to plots that weren't universally beloved and were still killable by an optimized party with "little" trouble. They're essentially Tarrasques with pre-made scenarios written partially into their statblocks.

The main benefit of using an Elder Evil is that it's in a book specifically aimed at DMs rather than the core MM, which as noted is considered standard reading by most optimizers. Seriously, I don't get how people complain about already knowing the surprise when it's their fault they went and looked it up. The only problem with the Tarrasque being in the MM1 is people reading it before fighting it. If you deliberately study the module the DM is going to use, the Elder Evils book the DM is going to use, the Monster Manual the DM is going to use, then you're the one who spoiled yourself on monster defenses. That's not the writer's fault. And I for one find the idea of never fighting an enemy with an unknown defense rather boring. There's no point in making an adaptable character and learning to play it if you never have to adapt because you read the monster list. If the only strategy you ever use is "lookup monster stats (via in or out of game knowledge) and press the win button," well have fun I guess?

And if you've fought a "final boss" or other special defense monster before, and you don't tell your DM, and then complain about them not modifying it to account for your out of game knowledge- well whose fault is that?

[Ualaa]

I'm not actually sure how these abilities would work. They don't match existing abilities or rules of the game so I am left with no point of reference.

They're not in any part of the rules... they're basically, what can you do to make the creature an annihilation level encounter that is a threat to anything and everything.

Not having the ability to safely fly well above the Tarrasque and attack it with impunity, without any chance of it getting back at you... that would increase it's threat to a large degree.
The summoning was an ability from a video game, Everquest; if you got too far away from anything considered a "boss" mob and no one was in melee range of the mob, it would summon people one after the other.

The anti-magic thing, prevents gating in a creature that can exploit it's one weakness. Without access to magic, it truly is the terror that it would have been, if you were using just what was available when it was published, and didn't have any out of game resources to consult during your encounter.

[Pleh]

Correction: Reverse Gravity covers 10' cubes- that's 1,000 cubic feet per 2 levels. You need nine 10' cubes to cover the bottom of the Tarrasque's 30' space, so a cl 18 Reverse Gravity will mess it up for a bit on a failed save. That still leaves it floating merely 10' off the ground, well within melee reach to pull itself out of the area, probably at half speed or so thanks to the frictionless "surface."

Yeah, it was late last night, so my units got fuzzy in my mind, but I did correctly anticipate an 18th level Reverse gravity would ever so slightly more than cover the floor beneath a Terrasque (even if my words didn't accurately reflect that).

But my problem is that the beast still isn't "in the area of the spell" rather the spell is in the area of the beast. The spell is really unclear about what effect (if any) it would have in the given scenario (that is to say, that the creature is larger than the spell's effected area). By RAW, I'd have a strong case to say the spell does nothing because the beast is not actually in the area of the spell (and cannot be contained in the limits of the area).

After all, if I were to change roles with them and do a similar trick to their PC, trying to rig the mechanics to affect just their foot to affect their footing, they'd probably say that same thing: "That doesn't really make sense, since my character should have a good chance to avoid that effect, or at least the ability to reactively shift my weight to compensate."

So pulling a bit of physics in, having the weight of my feet pull backwards against their usual direction would probably only be a problem if I were using them to do something more than simply stand in place. After all, if all I'm doing is standing in place, then my posture is propping my feet directly below me to reduce the amount of work required to resist the pull of gravity. Putting a reverse force on my feet only makes me feel a few pounds lighter as my upper body still greatly outweighs my feet.

If, for some reason, this happens while my legs are extended (like I'm doing the splits for some reason) it could be a real problem as the reverse weight of my feet could leverage my leg against my balance. So this makes sense for it to become a problem if I were using my legs to walk or move, but much less sense if I were merely standing in place (because that just places the weight of my feet directly against the weight of my upper body, which would just leave me standing and weighting slightly less). Of course, I'd probably be inclined to grant the Terrasque a "Stability Bonus" on this one for having a Velociraptor style body, where the legs are never actually splayed very far beyond the center of mass. The beast is so big and heavy that it rather constantly has to worry about falling down and its 20ft move speed rather implies that it takes very small, careful steps whenever it moves.

So, yeah, an 18th level Reverse Gravity would be a much better Grease trick than a plain old Grease spell. It's level appropriate, so I don't mind it having reasonable odds for success, but I might require the players use it a bit more strategically than, "Cast and watch the mighty Terrasque trip over his own shoelace." Maybe "Caster holds their action to cast the moment the Terrasque begins trying to move so the spell catches the Terrasque in trying to actually finish putting their foot down."

If you want me to bend the rules in your favor, you can at least do the mental gymnastics required to justify it. When you want to cheese a final boss like this, be prepared to justify your cheese.

[Calthropstu]

The only powerful tarrasque I know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e)

The most powerful creature I have ever seen that can be dominated. Beating its power resistance should be doable (I don't even wanna try its magic resistance) and a true mindswitch into that thing would be potent indeed.

[Fizban]

I prefer the turnaround of "The Tarrasque failed its save and is now floating in midair," letting them think they're safe, then having it just crawl out at half speed (Rush?) for the sucker punch-but having it stand or skate or fall over and slide out goofily highlights the "It's literally too big to BFC" horror a bit more, yeah.

[rel]

They're not in any part of the rules... they're basically, what can you do to make the creature an annihilation level encounter that is a threat to anything and everything.

Not having the ability to safely fly well above the Tarrasque and attack it with impunity, without any chance of it getting back at you... that would increase it's threat to a large degree.
The summoning was an ability from a video game, Everquest; if you got too far away from anything considered a "boss" mob and no one was in melee range of the mob, it would summon people one after the other.

The anti-magic thing, prevents gating in a creature that can exploit it's one weakness. Without access to magic, it truly is the terror that it would have been, if you were using just what was available when it was published, and didn't have any out of game resources to consult during your encounter.

But how would they actually work?
Like what would the rules text be?

Normally I could extrapolate what the desired rules text might be from a qualitative description but in this instance I'm having some trouble

[Dimers]

The tarrasque would beat Titian, hands-down. I can't imagine that guy was more than a 5th-level expert, and all of his feats were probably Skill Focus and the like.

Thank you. I'm seriously disappointed that it took so far into the thread for someone to pick that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchus_and_Ariadne#/media/File:Titian_Bacchus_and_Ariadne.jpg

[Lans]

You can significantly increase a tarrasques threat level by messing with its feats, having it worship an elder evil, and give it taint and flaws

[Savarin]

You can significantly increase a tarrasques threat level by messing with its feats, having it worship an elder evil, and give it taint and flaws

From what you guys been saying if we just give him a gravity field forcing everyone to the ground he should have a good chance :)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can significantly increase a tarrasques threat level by messing with its feats, having it worship an elder evil, and give it taint and flawsI think it should be an elder evil.

...not that this should preclude it from actually worshiping another one, of course.

[Grod_The_Giant]

From what you guys been saying if we just give him a gravity field forcing everyone to the ground he should have a good chance :)
I suggest a storm instead of a magical gravity field, but roughly yes-- you need to keep people from hovering out of reach, and to keep people from kiting it with ranged weapons. That covers the biggest practical weaknesses.

[Eldariel]

From what you guys been saying if we just give him a gravity field forcing everyone to the ground he should have a good chance :)

4e he actually had just that. It's kinda cool. But seriously, he needs a rework to be the menace he's supposed to be (much like the Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires), the highest CR non-custom monster). In general, martial monsters need something unexpected and scary to really matter; preferably multiple "unexpected and scary" things. An aura that causes all creatures to fall down would be nice; give it a range of say...1000' but allow Tarrasque a line of sight pull kind of ability too so you can't just sit back. Obviously make it unaffected by Freedom of Movement - this guy is a force of nature after all. Even so that'd still just enable it to baseline fight things - still far from making it a menace.

Then give it immunity to mind-affecting and ability drain to make it less trivial to put down and improve the Reflection ability of his SR somewhat; make it reflect all kinds of spells with varying effects and give it something unique like increasing SR based on the strength of auras within his 1000' domain. A Prismatic kind of roll dice to see effects to increase the risk of failing the roll. And then make its natural attacks able to hit incorporeal things and make the Rush ability bend reality a bit enabling it to act as a non-extra dimensional (unblockable) teleport. And give it some slightly more interesting special attacks than the same Swallow Whole you've been fighting since level 5 - it can have that but it could have lots of other stuff too.