ZorroGames
2017-10-18, 05:03 PM
Strictly theory since the FLGS we game in closed one day this past week “indefinitely” with no reason forthcoming as of yet why, but to MC out of Ranger you need WI & DE of 13 plus possibly another 13 in a stat for the target MC - so what is best or worst class in your opinion (MAD and class abilities considered) for a level 5 Ranger to choose?
FYSA, the campaign was ToA in Chult and my Ranger was a native of Port Nyanzaru.
I see plusses for DE Fighter, Druid, Monk, or Rogue only looking at avoiding a third stat of MADness. Maybe Barbarian or Sorceror as the worst candidates? Is a third trait of 13 (CH, ST, IN,) really such a big deal?
Theorize away.
I am gravitating towards Cleric or Fighter right now.
Specter
2017-10-18, 05:22 PM
The 'can't-go-wrong' multiclass for Ranger has to be Rogue. All other choices have to be measured against better skills, better damage and better mobility Rogue brings, which is what you want with a Ranger.
Fighter is another good choice because synergy runs abound, but you want less than 5 levels otherwise Extra Attack is wasted.
Cleric and Druid are good in the sense that they open your spell selection to many goodies even at first level, and increase your slots so you can upcast spells like Hail of Thorns and be sort of a ranged smiter.
Barbarian can be considered only if you are a melee ranger going for Reckless Attack and GWM. Otherwise, pass.
As for worst, I say Paladin, because the first level is absolute garbage and you'd need 4 decent stats to do it.
Citan
2017-10-18, 07:04 PM
Strictly theory since the FLGS we game in closed one day this past week “indefinitely” with no reason forthcoming as of yet why, but to MC out of Ranger you need WI & DE of 13 plus possibly another 13 in a stat for the target MC - so what is best or worst class in your opinion (MAD and class abilities considered) for a level 5 Ranger to choose?
FYSA, the campaign was ToA in Chult and my Ranger was a native of Port Nyanzaru.
I see plusses for DE Fighter, Druid, Monk, or Rogue only looking at avoiding a third stat of MADness. Maybe Barbarian or Sorceror as the worst candidates? Is a third trait of 13 (CH, ST, IN,) really such a big deal?
Theorize away.
I am gravitating towards Cleric or Fighter right now.
Hi!
If I wanted to play snake's tongue and follow some theorycraftship dictators, I'd say "every class because Ranger is lackluster".
But I don't actually think it, that the Ranger is lackluster. ^^
However, I think every class has things to bring to Ranger. The nuance is, because of what they bring, some classes (*cough* Rogue *cough*) will be great whatever level and build your Ranger is, while others will only be good to some builds.
So...
Let's theorize away. I won't theorycraft further than level 6-7 for convenience. I suppose a traditional Wood Elf Ranger with current stats (lvl 4 spent on Sharpshooter or Dual Wielder) : 10 / 16 / 14 / 8 / 16 / 10
Barbarian
Requirement: 13 STR
What does it bring?
Mainly better defense against DEX saves and better damage on STR attacks, along with damage resistance.
At the price of requiring some STR which is most often not the Ranger's direction.
What are the drawbacks?
- Rage = no casting. And some of the best Ranger spells are combat-oriented too. So it kinda split your character as bipolar, either "half-encounters martial melee, half-encounters ranged half-caster" or "combat = martial, out-of-combat = caster".
- STR requirement: If you want to go DEX build, it has a huge impact on your overall stat balance.
Now if you want to go STR build, which is a perfectly viable thing to do as Ranger too, then it's actually not a problem: you won't cast many spells in combat anyways, so you don't care about having lower WIS (except for saves of course) and lowering DEX to 14 is still enough to get the best of medium armor.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Whenever I make a melee-geared Ranger, who mainly uses spells for healing and utility. In which cases I will ALWAYS put a level in Rogue for Expertise: might as well be great at grappling/shoving since I'm going into melee. ;)
Bard
Requirement: 13 CHA.
Valor Bard is out because too much redundancy, UA is out too because non-official. What's left? Lore Bard.
What does it bring?
- Spellcasting: better healing (Healing Words), another free Ranger spell (Longstrider), good sneaking ritual (Silence), great versatile spell (Enhance Ability), non-concentration good debuff (Blindness), and up to Elemental Weapon if you go level 6.
- Slots: twice the usual rate, meaning more Hunter's Mark, Pass Without Trace, Ensnaring Strike etc.
- Jack of All Trades and Expertise: make you extra great at Perception and Stealth for example, good everywhere.
- Bardic Inspiration and Cutting Words: great for you, allies and against enemies.
What are the drawbacks?
- Nearly all spells a Bard can provide to Ranger are ultimately much easier to get through Cleric or Druid. Only Elemental Weapon is exclusive, but requires 6 full levels. It's a hard bargain.
- Expertise can be get in a quicker and easier way with Rogue.
- Extra skill can be somewhat achieved in an easier way through Knowledge Cleric.
- It does eat quite in your starting stats: you would need to eat into STR and either CON or WIS, or spend your first ASI on Observant/Actor, to bring CHA high enough.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Only if I'm ready to go up to Bard 6+ to get great spells, or if I just want to add some great social skills and Expertise by going 3 levels and for whatever reason background/skills are not enough to my taste.
Cleric
Requirement: none (since WIS is already for Ranger)
What does it bring?
Well, a heap of great spells that could help a Ranger in surviving.
Plus a few offensive spells that can benefit all rangers (Spiritual Weapon, Command, Blindness) and some that benefit melee (Spirit Guardians).
Plus Channel Divinities and benefits that can fit any kind of Ranger, provided you select the adequate domain. Among the most decisive...
- Knowledge: want extra skill versatility? Look no further.
- Life: better goodberries and heavy armor. Just that is enough.
- Nature: for melee Rangers (Shillelagh) or Rangers that would use slingshots for whatever reason (I don't judge XD) (Magic Stone), or any Ranger that wants to get a great defensive reaction and adaptable extra damage.
- Tempest: for archer Rangers with high WIS, although the real ROI comes when you get Lightning Arrow.
- Trickery: to help you hit target (advantage), allow you to help people in front while staying on the back (Healing Words), and get a powerful defensive spell (Mirror Image).
- War: for those Crossbow Expert Rangers that dislike micromanagement of Hunter's Mark that competes with extra attack: Divine Favor or Magic Weapon make for a pretty good alternative.
What are the drawbacks?
Besides the general drawback of multiclassing, none.
In what cases I would multiclass?
My personal taste has an easy answer: ALL. ANY. AND. EVERY. CASE!
Although it would generally no go further than a 3-level multiclass at most, and most often be only a 1 (Life/Nature/War) or 2 (Tempest/Knowledge/Trickery) level dip.
Druid
Requirement: none.
Moon Druid is out here, because there are very few (imo) features of Ranger that synergize with beast forms (at most it doesn't change anything), especially since CR progression is so slow.
What does it bring?
- Wild Shape: still a solid ability for spying/scouting/traveling. Actual value depends on how you like the concept and how creative you may (be allowed to) be.
- Spells: OH. My. GOD. So many great spells here that benefit any Ranger, melee/ranged alike, covering all areas, including many of Ranger's own spelllist (meaning you can instead learn "as a Ranger" all those precious exclusive spells)... I won't make a list, because 90% is great. And you can prepare at will each day too! It's like a Ranger's dream come true.
- Circle: all land circles are great really, but of course those providing non-Druid spells like Mirror Image, Misty Step or Haste can make some circles more valuable than others.
What are the drawbacks?
- Armor limitation: really not a big deal unless you really want a tanky character in heavy armor (whatever way you got that proficiency). Plus you can work a quest with DM to get special woodmade heavy armor too. :)
- Druid fluff: this is the really big one. Even if your DM is light on official class-fluff roleplay, Druid is just so much associated with "animal-lover" and "wildman living in forest" in everyone's minds that it can pregnate your character without you noticing it. Obviously, if you don't mind, then all is good.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Personal taste, same as Cleric: ALL. ANY. AND. EVERY. CASE! With the big difference that I won't have too much trouble going as far as Druid 7 or even higher, even if generally I'll cap it at 6 (Conjure Animals, Haste for archer, free movement in natural difficult terrain).
Fighter
Requirement: none (DEX built-in).
What does it bring?
- Additional Fighting Style: from "meh" to "great", depending on your build and focus. I'd argue it's "meh" for a dedicated archer (since even Defense won't be useful that often), "good enough" for a versatile one (you can grab both Archery and TWF to freely switch between melee and range) and "good" for a melee (Defense will be more often useful).
- Action Surge: honestly? Same. If your habit is to open fight with a Conjure Animals or Plant Growth, then it's great, because you still get your "full turn". Otherwise? Not worth its level imo.
- Archetype: all three are great: Champion for crits, Battlemaster for Menacing Attack (all), Precision (archer), Trip Attack (melee) and Evasive Footwork (melee), Eldricht Knight for cantrips (sometimes having a plain Firebolt or Ray of Frost will be helpful) and Shield + Find Familiar.
What are the drawbacks?
If you go up to 5, there is a real dead level, because Fighter is the only class that brings nothing else than Extra Attack at this level. Even Eldricht Knight's level 5 won't boost your spellcasting.
In what cases would I multiclass?
I will derogate to my own rule here, but the only reasons I see for a multiclass are...
- On a Ranger that just wants some interesting martial things to do (3-level in Battlemaster.
- On a Ranger that wants to be extremely good with his debuff spells and is aiming for the very long-term benefit (Eldricht Strike).
Otherwise? My opinion is that there are too many other great classes.
Monk
Requirement: none.
What does it bring?
- Unarmored: always nice to have, but technically no better than what you can have as a Ranger. So only much later may it be useful (provided you boost both DEX and WIS, which is not that common).
- Martial Arts and all related melee-only features: definitely hard to work with on anything else than a melee Ranger. For such one though, it's a great bargain.
- Better speed: always useful, but still lesser so on an archer that presumably has Sharpshooter (meaning is usually far away in the first place). Great on melee ranger of course.
- Dodge/Dash/Disengage as bonus action: just Dodge makes a few levels in Monk very valuable for any Ranger that wants to be on the safe side.
- archetype abilities: all these are great actually, but none has real synergy with Ranger: they are good to have because they are good in itselves, that's all.
- Evasion at level 7: extremely great defensive feature.
What are the drawbacks?
- Most Monk goodies require Ki. You may feel "hungry" with only a few Ki. Otherwise said, you will usually want at least "Manoeuvers-parity" so 4 levels.
- Besides Dodge and speed, 90% of base features of Monk scream melee. If you are a Sharpshooter longbow build, having a decent alternative may be worth. If you are a Crossbow Expert build, totally useless.
In what cases would I multiclass?
- For a melee Ranger: if I took TWF, I would probably turn to other classes. If I picked instead another style, Monk would definitely be a top choice for at least 2 or 3 levels.
- For a longbow Ranger: if you like the fluff and ability to land decent attacks with off-arm while keeping your longbow on main, OR if you rolled great WIS+DEX, a single level dip is worth considering. Otherwise, pass would be my usual reaction.
- For a CE Ranger: features will be too situational for you, not worth the investment.
Paladin
Requirement: STR and CHA.
What does it bring?
Well...
- A few healing spells, nice utility spells, and two smite spells that work on ranged attacks.
- Divine Smite: no need to explain.
- Immunity to disease: good to pick, but hardly worth a level.
- Aura of Protection: great as long as you have the CHA that makes it worth (aka at least 16 CHA), plus it's level 6.
- Aura of Warding: Ancients exclusive, extremely good, but level 7.
- Oaths: nice spells, good melee boost (Vengeance, Oathbreaker -CHA-dependent) or archer boost (Devotion, although CHA-dependent).
What are the drawbacks?
Stats requirement: haha. haha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
You are so MAD it's borderline fun.
Basically either you will be a 14 Normal Human, or you go Devotion with 13 STR / 14 DEX / 10 CON / 8 INT / 13 WIS / 16 CHA and count on Sacred Weapon to shine (pun intended).
Of course, this implies you have to plan at character creation.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Anytime I roll great stats and want original character.
Otherwise? Pass. Could be fun, but just too complex to my taste.
Rogue
Requirement: none.
What does it bring?
So many frigging great things that I wonder why you even ask. :)
- Sneak Attack: for someone with 2-3 attacks, having a big increase that you apply at your choice on a hit is great. Requirements to enable are not that hard too.
- Cunning Action: between Dash, Disengage and Hide, whether archer or swordsman, you will have something useful to do with your bonus action. Of course, if you have Crossbow Expert, the value is somewhat diminishing, even more if you stack Sharpshooter onto.
- Expertise: no need to explain.
- Uncanny Dodge: unless you wanted your Ranger to tank into melee, he won't often have more than one or two enemies on its back. Plus when using a longbow you don't get OA anyways. So it's the perfect deal.
- Evasion: as an archer even more than as melee, the main way to threaten you besides arrows will be AOE. So making you better at avoiding them is always welcomed.
- Reliable Talent (ok, it's level 11, I said I would stop at level 7, but still): you will be the BEST. TRACKER. EVER (although technically it's a bit overkill, between Favored Terrain and Hunter's Mark).
- Archetypes: Thief synergizes well with Goodberry, Arcane Trickster same as EK, Swashbuckler is nice for the added freedom in SA and movement...
What are the drawbacks?
I'm seriously still looking.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Same as Cleric, same as Druid. EVERY. FRIGGING. TIME.
I will nearly always grab Cunning Action at the very least, unless I'm an archer that is always in ideal situation (non-threatened, far away from frontline) or an archer with both Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.
Sorcerer
Requirement: 13 CHA.
Wild Magic is out because require too high a level to get reliable. Storm Sorcerer is kinda meh, not very synergizing. Draconic is the best here.
What does it bring?
- Resilience buff with +1 HP/level and permanent Mage Armor.
- Spellcasting: lots of useful cantrips, whatever kind of Ranger you are, also Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Comprehend Languages, Blindness, Enhance Ability, Haste, Slow, whatever... Obviously less versatile than a Druid, also no healing, but still enough spells to have fun considering you are a half-caster at core. Plus...
- Metamagics: I honestly never took the time to analyse metamagic synergies with Ranger spells, but depending on the spells you pick, you will find the best ones: on the fly, let's say Empowered Hail of Thorns, Heighetened Ensnaring Strike, Extended Hunter's Mark, Subtle anything...
What are the drawbacks?
Confer Bard: exactly the same.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Either if I wanted some Metamagic greatness to use some trick as often as possible (in which case Sorcerer 4), or if I wanted to really buff my resilience (Sorcerer 3), or just to have many cantrips (1 level) and prepare for a dip into another caster or Inspiring Leader/Actor feat.
Or if I rolled good enough stats to crank up 14+ CHA while still having "normal Ranger" stats. In which case it'd be a strong consideration.
Warlock
Requirement: 13 CHA.
What does it bring?
- Spellcasting: Hex competes with Hunter's Mark, but has added versatility. Armor or Agathys is nice although costly at low level for a melee. Mirror Image is always great for a DEX build.
- Short-rest slots: that is a great value here, if you tend to use one or two spells very regularly.
- Invocations: Devil's Sight pairs with Darkness to make you a hidden sniper with no sweat. Other invocations give you diverse tools to expand your utility.
- Pacts: all three are very good, but Blade is redundant for you. Chain with magic resistance is great for melee builds. Tome Pact is imo the best overall because of sheer utility, between cantrips and rituals, especially if you go up to level 5 (Phantom Steed, Leomund's Tiny Hut).
What are the drawbacks?
Same as Bard.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Basically the same, although I may be motivated to make the effort stat-wise, much more than for other classes, because I feel short-rest slots are a great fallback plan to keep "normal slots" for emergencies, and overall for three levels Tome Warlock is (barring Druid and Cleric) the most filled with goodies.
Wizard
Requirement: 13 INT.
What does it bring?
- Spellcasting: the biggest list of all classes, although no healing nor conjuration until very high level. Also note that how many spells you know is very DM dependent.
- Schools: all can be great, but of course a few are distinguishing itselves: Evoker if you tend to use your "AOE arrow spells" with friendlies close-by (!!!! AFB, maybe those spells are not evocation, in which case I'm dead wrong, it's useless), Abjurer because extra ward is always nice, Diviner of course for those rerolls.
What are the drawbacks?
Same as others non-WIS classes.
In what cases would I multiclass?
Well, probably only...
- If I really want to make it work for the fun of concept ("wildman, but quite knowledgeable mind you").
- Or if I want to really wildly expand my spellcasting options and I know the DM will work with me towards that.
Otherwise, whatever thing you wanted to achieve with Wizard (except Necromancer), you can make work faster and easier with other classes.
I wanted to make a recap and some examples builds I particularly like, but it's really too late for me right now.
So just a quick summary.
- Dipping/multiclassing into it is never a bad idea (rather, a very good idea): Cleric, Druid, Rogue.
- Dipping/multiclassing into it can be very worthwhile as long as you know why you do it: Sorcerer, Monk, Warlock, Bard.
- Dipping/multiclassing into it can be considered only if you have something specific in mind: Barbarian, Wizard, Fighter.
- Dipping/multiclassing into it is a challenge in and of itself, avoid unless you rolled great stats or like difficulty: Paladin.
ZorroGames
2017-10-18, 09:24 PM
Missed one session after FLGS closed and feeling the pain already.
My stalled Ranger is Variant Human (See, I do play things other than Mountain Dwarfs and occasional Hill Dwarfs,) is stuck at level 3 heading for Fourth and ASI followed by Fifth and then probable MCing.
ST 10
DE 16 (yea, longbow)
CO 12
IN 11
WI 16 (If I can only concentrate on one spell I want to do it well)
CH 8 (I prefer rural over urban, less difficult people, heck, less people in general)
Scale/hlang (shield), Hand axe (still asking myself “Why?”) dagger (rapier or at least short sword top my “next time in Port Nyanzaru” shopping list,) and a whip. Archeologist. Acrobatics from VHuman, History and Survival from background, Nature/Perception/Stealth from class.
Feat MAM at first.
Really, really want to pick up where we stalled ASAP.
Planning ahead on the assumption our AL ToA game picks up soon.
Citan
2017-10-19, 07:02 AM
"in this class" means 1d8+1 vs 1d10, no gain.
Nope.
+1 HP is always +1 HP.
It certainly ends as still lower HP than pure Ranger, and equal HP as multiclassing into Cleric/Druid/whatever...
But that does not change the fact that it's one HP more per level than what you would get with another Sorcerer archetype, which is a d6 die at core.
So it actually makes Sorcerer equal to a d8 if you take average, making it equal HP-wise to all other good multiclassing options.
Otherwise said, if you consider a one-rank lesser size die (d8 instead of d10) as a significant drawback, then it's equally true for ALL multiclass options barring Fighter and Barbarian (better) and Wizard (even worse).
So the question is, should it be considered as such?
Difference will amount to somewhere between 5 (average) and 10 HP (hypothesis in which you always roll and always get highest) for a five-level multiclass.
Unless you plan on building a tank Ranger (which is not supported at all by core features so I don't really know why you would try and do that), I daresay it's not at all. Even truer if you are an archer.
I agree my wording led to confusion though, no argue on that, but I won't correct it since otherwise it would be like trying to erase my error. ;)
Now that this is taken care of...
First, to OP, some examples of "core" multiclass combos I really like.
Life Cleric 1 / Thief Rogue 3 / Monk 4: versatile, melee and ranged alike, can Bless himself, eat Life Goodberries as a bonus action, or Dodge. Go Shadow if you don't use Hunter's Mark, 4E otherwise if you have good WIS, or Long Death for melee low WIS.
Life Cleric 1 / Druid 1 (taken whenever you want): easy, quickly and greatly boost your spellcasting and rest-healing.
Tempest Cleric 2 (first level early, second level rather after getting Ranger 9): maximized Lightning Arrow, and some defensive reaction for those few enemies reaching you.
Swashbuckler Rogue 5 (taken whenever you want): for Ranger that dabble into S&B melee, thematically fitting and mechanically synergizing.
Grassland Druid 5 (first level early, rest whenever you want): Haste yourself and laugh away, or conjure guardian animals to form a protective barrage.
And now for more contextualized suggestion. :)
Missed one session after FLGS closed and feeling the pain already.
My stalled Ranger is Variant Human (See, I do play things other than Mountain Dwarfs and occasional Hill Dwarfs,) is stuck at level 3 heading for Fourth and ASI followed by Fifth and then probable MCing.
ST 10
DE 16 (yea, longbow)
CO 12
IN 11
WI 16 (If I can only concentrate on one spell I want to do it well)
CH 8 (I prefer rural over urban, less difficult people, heck, less people in general)
Scale/hlang (shield), Hand axe (still asking myself “Why?”) dagger (rapier or at least short sword top my “next time in Port Nyanzaru” shopping list,) and a whip. Archeologist. Acrobatics from VHuman, History and Survival from background, Nature/Perception/Stealth from class.
Feat MAM at first.
Really, really want to pick up where we stalled ASAP.
Planning ahead on the assumption our AL ToA game picks up soon.
Hmm...
I guess you will grab Sharpshooter on your 4th level ASI right?
With those stats, only the WIS classes, Fighter and Rogue are open to multiclass anyways, so it's easier to make your choice...
I'd suggest, "find one strength of Ranger you really want to improve, or one drawback you want to cover".
For example...
- If you tend to use Hunter's Mark frequently, then it implies that a) if you want more spells, those should be majoritarely non-concentration. b) you have a use for bonus action at least some rounds in any encounter. So Cleric or Rogue or high level multiclasses for Haste/Elemental Weapon/ whatever may be less appealing.
- If you tend to often face melee enemies and get into life-threatening situations, it may mean that your AC/HP is too low (> Monk's Dodge, Cleric's Shield of Faith or Aid), or you lack mobility (> Cunning Action or Monk), or you lack ways to slow enemy down (Druid's Web / Plant Growth / etc).
- If you find yourself often having concentration broken, then you could either continue Ranger up to 9 and grab Resilient/Warcaster, or you could compensate by increasing discretion without loosing spellcasting (Arcane Trickster 3 + Cleric or Druid for slots).
- If you like your magically empowered arrows and are not afraid to plan for long-term, you could dual-class Arcane Trickster up to Magical Ambush then see how you finish...
I'd suggest you to plan not too far ahead though. ;) The great thing of your character is that even if only 5 classes are available for multiclasses, all bring many goodies at each level, so something as simple as a dual-class and something as stupid as an "hexa"-class may be equally good.
Meaning you can simply enjoy adventuring days as they come, just keeping how party evolves (and how yourself evolve) in mind to determine whichever option would be the best on the next two levels.
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