Paladin/Goblin Alliance?

[VanBuren]

Now, this is a long shot. And I don't really think it'll happen, but it's a fun idea to throw around.

What if--somewhere near the end of the story of course--The leader of the Sapphire Guard (Hinjo, if alive by this point) and the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (Redcloack, if not dead at that time) come to some sort of peace agreement, or form an alliance?

Not only would this result in a sizeable army to fight the Final Battle again the BBEG, but it would allow both the goblins to get their good and established land, and also restore AC.

Thoughts?

[ChopSticks28]

I thought about this ending too, and there's a high chance for it to happen. Both the paladins and the goblins are introduced as "fighting for greater good", so I don't think he will allow one of them to destroy the other. In my opinion, in the future they will combine forces against Xykon.

[factotum]

Redcloak would have to go against the express wishes of his god to do that, though. I'm also thinking there's too much hatred on both sides for any such alliance to come about...

[Pequod]

Not a bad theory, though there is indeed a lot of bad blood, all redcloak wants is a share of good land, and for his tribes not to be slaughtered on a semi regular basis:smallbiggrin:

[Fitzclowningham]

I think the alignment system is inviolable. Goblinfolk are evil, and Paladins are, well, paladins. Unless Rich is willing to completely depart from the D&D framework, they'll never work together.

[Morty]

Redcloak hates humans strongly and paladins won't ally with typically evil races. So, no.

[ChopSticks28]

There has to be an ending in which both of them would have a nice... umm.... ending. Neither the paladins will be destroyed because they're the good guys, nor the goblins after "Start of Darkness". So an alliance is a completely valid theory.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

There has to be an ending in which both of them would have a nice... umm.... ending. Neither the paladins will be destroyed because they're the good guys, nor the goblins after "Start of Darkness". So an alliance is a completely valid theory.

Well, I don't think either Redcloak or Hinjo would ever even consider an alliance after all that's happened.

Hinjo couldn't care less about either the goblins or peace, and too much has happened to Redcloak to ever want to make peace with them.

But maybe Redcloak's niece and some other paladin could come to terms.

[Silkenfist]

Redcloak hates humans strongly and paladins won't ally with typically evil races. So, no.

Don't think in stereotypes, please. Paladins are only forbidden from allying with evil persons. There is nothing that prevents them from allying with nonevil representatives of an evil race.

And it is totally reasonable that Hinjo sacrifices his Paladinhood since he can't serve the greater good without violating the code.

[NerfTW]

The problem is that the Dark One already tried to form an alliance and live in peace. They betrayed him. Red Cloak isn't going to forgive the other races that easily, nor is he going to let his guard down like that.

Hinjo isn't going to ally peacefully with someone who destroyed his city.


An alliance between them would be too ridiculous for even this comic. Red Cloak might betray Xykon if Xykon fails to control the gates, and there's another arcane spellcaster willing to do Xykon's part. (Tsukiko?) But as stated in SoD, Red Cloak won't betray Xykon because it would make his brother's death meaningless.

He's clearly had the chance already, and was quite capable of laying low and finding someone else to help him. I don't think the Holy Symbol is an issue, since he states that he used it precisely because he could destroy it to destroy Xykon. Which means that he knew the Dark One would simply make him a new one.

[EvilElitest]

Don't think in stereotypes, please. Paladins are only forbidden from allying with evil persons. There is nothing that prevents them from allying with nonevil representatives of an evil race.

And it is totally reasonable that Hinjo sacrifices his Paladinhood since he can't serve the greater good without violating the code.

Also if you consult the Book of Exalted Deeds, Paladins can work with evil creaturs, just can't allow them to do evil things. So if the goblins and the paladins attacked a greater evil, it is ok as long as the goblins don't do any evil actions while working with the paladins.

So it is possible, just extremly unlikely
from,
EE

[Morty]

I hate this stereotype too, but I'm afraid that there's no chance Sapphire Guard will work outside it, given for example Soon's attitude and (SoD spoilers]massacre of Redcloak's village
(futher SoD spoilers):Also, since gods created goblins as cannon fodder I don't think paladins will treat them seriously.

[the mysterian]

I think the alignment system is inviolable. Goblinfolk are evil, and Paladins are, well, paladins. Unless Rich is willing to completely depart from the D&D framework, they'll never work together.

not nessacarily, the snarl is bad for everyone, if it had an allignment i'd say chaotic apocalyptic sounds right. it is more than enough to make the goblins and paladins play nice for five seconds, then return to murdering eachother.

[VanBuren]

The problem is that the Dark One already tried to form an alliance and live in peace. They betrayed him. Red Cloak isn't going to forgive the other races that easily, nor is he going to let his guard down like that.

Hinjo isn't going to ally peacefully with someone who destroyed his city.


An alliance between them would be too ridiculous for even this comic. Red Cloak might betray Xykon if Xykon fails to control the gates, and there's another arcane spellcaster willing to do Xykon's part. (Tsukiko?) But as stated in SoD, Red Cloak won't betray Xykon because it would make his brother's death meaningless.

He's clearly had the chance already, and was quite capable of laying low and finding someone else to help him. I don't think the Holy Symbol is an issue, since he states that he used it precisely because he could destroy it to destroy Xykon. Which means that he knew the Dark One would simply make him a new one.

Of course, which is why any possibility of this would almost completely require the death of Redcloak.

[pjackson]

Not a chance.
The Saphire Guard and probably all other paladins would oppose the destruction of the world.
The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle does not. He is willing to destroy the world for the "greater good".

In SoD Recloak said that allowing the snarl to escape and destroy the world would be a good result as it would give the dark one more influence in creating the next world.

[pjackson]

The problem is that the Dark One already tried to form an alliance and live in peace. They betrayed him.

According to Redcloak, based on what he was told by the Dark One.
That is hardly an unbiased view of events.
It may have been that the offer to live in peace was more like the one Neville Chamberlain accepted, i.e. "Give us the land we are asking for and there will be peace".

[hanzo66]

I was thinking of two endings in the series about the Goblin race for the comic...

The "Peace" ending...

The Goblin Race atones themselves and are able to make peace with the other species upon some sort of sacrifice of Redcloak. His niece (who may have either adapted to non-goblin civilization or has become a peace activist/hippie) then becomes the new leader of the race, leading them into a new hope. The series ends with a Goblin Paladin perhaps joining the Order.

And the Good Ending...

After the defeat of Xykon/The Snarl and the sacrifice of Redcloak, The Goblin race is hunted down to near-extinction. With almost all his powers gone, The Dark One loses his Godhood and becomes a mortal goblin slain by an upstart jerkass Paladin. The series then shows several defenseless Goblin children cornered in a street alley by "Good"-aligned adventurers (perhaps descendants of the Order) looking for cheap experience and some thrills...

[Dunamin]

I think the alignment system is inviolable. Goblinfolk are evil, and Paladins are, well, paladins. Unless Rich is willing to completely depart from the D&D framework, they'll never work together.

By the book, in D&D goblins are usually neutral evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm), which means that on average more than 50% of the generic population has this alignment (Monster Manual p305).

Similarly, hobgoblins are usually lawful evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm), implying again nothing more than that over 50% has such an alignment.

Standard D&D absolutely holds options for goblinoid tribes that are overall Neutral in alignment, even extremely radical tribes that are overall Good. For that matter, Good goblins have already appeared in the comic.

Though rare, it is definitely not an impossibility for goblinoid-human relations to be established. A far more certain statement you could have made, was that wererats and brass dragons will never work together, as the former is always Lawful Evil and the latter is always Chaotic Good.

Had Azure City and the nearby goblinoid tribes not had their history (including the recent war), a truce could easily have been imagined when they first encountered each other, considering how both Azure City and the hobgoblins are overall Lawful. Soon kinda messed that up, though (no offence to the awesome pally).

[Castamir]

Technically, an universe with no single living being left enjoys peace, forever. So why won't just release Snarl and be done with it?

[InfiniteMiller]

Of course, the interesting thing to remember is that if anyone is ever capable of killing Redcloak (I'm thinking of Hinjo, Roy, or maybe Belkar for humour's sake), that person will become the new Supreme Leader of the surviving hobgoblins.

:D

[RyQ_TMC]

Eh, an interesting idea I have toyed with once...

But there is no way for that to happen. After reading "Start of Darkness", I know Redcloak would never turn against Xykon...

[Tirian]

The OOTS is not about restoring AC, they are about vanquishing Xykon and keeping the Snarl imprisoned. If not before, they will take off for Girard's Gate as soon as X leaves town. There wasn't a "happy ending" for the destroyed dungeon or the destroyed inn that the OOTS left in their wake, why should they be delayed for the impossible task of routing tens of thousands of settled hobgoblins?

Now, if you want to write fanfiction about Hinjo and Lien and Kazumi and Daigo and Axe reclaiming their town, knock yourself out. Ask Rich really nicely and maybe he'll allow you into the ten foot radius of his Protection from Lawsuits. But there's no gate here any longer and so there's no reason for the main characters to stay once they've healed and restocked.

[VanBuren]

You're right. At current, there's no reason for the OotS to stick around. That still doesn't mean that it'll be written out of the story.

[Inhuman Bot]

Well if this story was set in ebberon it would be pluasible, but its not so its unlikey. but possible.

[Oberon]

Paladins are too arrogant to align with any creatures they consider so "base" and "vile", no matter the cost.

Not without long argument and much reluctance, at least.

[kpenguin]

After the defeat of Xykon/The Snarl and the sacrifice of Redcloak, The Goblin race is hunted down to near-extinction. With almost all his powers gone, The Dark One loses his Godhood and becomes a mortal goblin slain by an upstart jerkass Paladin. The series then shows several defenseless Goblin children cornered in a street alley by "Good"-aligned adventurers (perhaps descendants of the Order) looking for cheap experience and some thrills...

A bit grim, wouldn't you say?

[Ganurath]

If Redcloak is in charge:
If he got to keep Azure City, and hostility toward goblins were to cease, he'd be in a position to fulfill the agenda of his patron without destroying the world. Which, of course, would lead to...

If Xykon kills Redcloak for some reason:
Xykon would become Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins, and unleash all hell. Unless, of course...

Long Shot: Xykon accidently destroys his phylactery while killing Redcloak:
The original Supreme Leader who "stepped down" for Redcloak rises up and focuses on establishing dominance. That means crushing potential rebels such as the Sapphire Guard and the OOTS.

I discluded possibilities of good guys killing Redcloak because the odds of making a peace treaty with someone while trying to kill them are slim.

[Alysar]

Don't forget that Redcloak needs to
(SoD Spoiler)
avoid being eaten by MitD for betraying Xykon

[VanBuren]

Paladins are too arrogant to align with any creatures they consider so "base" and "vile", no matter the cost.

Not without long argument and much reluctance, at least.

You know, Paladins aren't all arrogant.

[Morty]

You know, Paladins aren't all arrogant.

But I'm afraid Sapphire Guard members tend to be arrogant even more often than normal paladins. Just look at Soon Kim in the main comic. SoD spoilers:
Plus it's hard not to be arrogant for race that gods themselves labelled as "to be killed for XP"

[VanBuren]

But I'm afraid Sapphire Guard members tend to be arrogant even more often than normal paladins. Just look at Soon Kim in the main comic. SoD spoilers:
Plus it's hard not to be arrogant for race that gods themselves labelled as "to be killed for XP"

Maybe so, but the poster I quoted just said Paladins were arrogant, just in general. Felt I had to correct that one.

[Alfryd]

But I'm afraid Sapphire Guard members tend to be arrogant even more often than normal paladins. Just look at Soon Kim in the main comic.
Where is the particular evidence for arrogance on Soon Kim's part? I see an outburst of anger, I see decisions made with potential drawbacks, but I don't see arrogance as such.

[Morty]

His shouting to Redcloak and Xykon in #459. His actions from SoD.By which I mean attack on Redcloak's village
Maybe not "arrogance" literraly, but certainly not something that'd make alliance with goblins possible.

[Alfryd]

I can't speak for SoD, but I fail to see how his remarks in 459 constitute arrogance any more than the usual bluster on Roy & Co.'s part does.

[Morty]

Alright, so maybe "arrogance" isn't the best word, but I think Soon's "die unholy evil cleric/lich" attitude makes paladin/goblin alliance impossible neverhteless. Even if they see goblin as worth their attention, they'll see them as evil and threat to creation.

[Kish]

I think SoD makes a much stronger argument, really. However, I think the main reason why the Sapphire Guard won't ally with goblins--or anyone else--in the future is that, well, they no longer really exist as such, even if they haven't quite acknowledged it yet. No Sapphire, no ghosts tied to the mortal world. They might remain a paladin order and find another name, of course, but I'm betting on dissolution as a formal entity.


Plus it's hard not to be arrogant for race that gods themselves labelled as "to be killed for XP"

Not really, no. It just requires concluding that the gods were wrong--as easier conclusion to arrive at, I would think, when you're a member of an organization dedicated to guarding something that wouldn't exist if it weren't for the gods squabbling like spoiled children. Of course, some people would argue that that's arrogant itself, even in D&D.

[Forealms]

I think Hinjo will (eventually) kill Redcloak, making him the leader of the Hobgoblin army. Hinjo, having learned SOMETHING from the past mistakes of his brethren, will not come up with a way to kill them all, but will instead lead them to defend the remaining gates. Keeping them provisioned enough to stay for a while, of course.

[Impikmin]

Hrm.. I think I've heard something like this before. Like when Arrav makes a peace treaty with goblins in a tale of Runesca... *must resist making a Runescape Folklore reference, for fear that no one will know what I'm talking about*

[Mr.Ace]

Hinjo is simply paladin-like to form an alliance with the goblins, and there is *no* way Redcloak would *ever*, *ever* help the humans unless it were for Xykon's or his gain. In my own theory, the next step of the story might possibly go like this:

"Hinjo, Durkon, Elan and Varsuuvius(?) sail from island to island, village to village, and gaining heroes for the war (a classic, yet great story-pitch), while Redcloak rushes in, taking the city as a defense point to hold until they can replenish their numbers for the next gate."

[GSFB]

Redcloak will never turn against Xykon because that would make it too easy to destroy Xykon. Redcloak can destroy Xykon's phylactery at will, and has high enough level spells to inflict serious damage to Xykon (if not destroy him outright). That would take about half of one conventional comic strip episode. Not good writing. Not good at all.

THAT is the primary reason why it won't happen: it won't be good writing. All other reasons, all discussions of alignments and gods and such, are insignificant next to the power of the plot.