Making Centaurs Playable (3.5)

[SirNibbles]

Centaurs are great. They are big, can run fast, carry a lot of weight, have great stat adjustments, two natural hoof attacks, darkvision, and they don't need to wear clothes.

Unfortunately, they are saddled with a +2 LA and 4 RHD of Monstrous Humanoid which means they must be level 7 to take their first class level. How can we make them more playable? I'm aware that the LA-Assignment project has rated them as +1 LA with 4 RHD. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987)

First, let's figure out what a centaur is.

Races of the Wild, page 95:

"With the lower body of a large horse and the upper torso and arms of a human, centaurs combine speed and strength in their powerful forms. A centaur is as big and heavy as a horse, standing about 7 feet high and weighing about 2,100 pounds."

A 2,100 pound horse is massive. If the height of the centaur were 7 feet from its hoof to its head, it would be tiny- the horse base would have to be around 12 hands (4 feet), which would result in a horse of under 750 lbs. Let us therefore assume that the 7 foot height refers to the height of the base horse, as measured from the ground to the horse's head (not to its withers).

Next, let us consider the size of the humanoid portion of a centaur. Some depictions show it as being larger than a normal human, as this one:

https://art.famsf.org/sites/default/files/artwork/morghen/5050161212800086.jpg

Other depictions, such as this Ancient Greek sculpture show a body which is very similar in size to a human, with the horse part scaled down greatly.

https://live.staticflickr.com/3479/3238810364_864419163e_b.jpg

However, the Greek depiction shows a rather small horse which would be neither 7 feet tall nor 2,100 pounds.

For our purposes, let's say that the humanoid portion is slightly larger than a human would be, as well as being significantly more muscular- similar in size to a Medium Humanoid with Powerful Build, like a Goliath. Think of guys like Shaquille O'Neal or Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson, but bigger. That would mean a body weight of around 400 lbs, or about 260 lbs since the legs aren't there. The torso of the humanoid part, again using huge dudes as our basis, would be around 3.5 feet tall. That leaves 1,840 pounds for the horse, which is about the right weight for a headless horse which is 18 or 19 hands (72-76 inches) tall at the withers.

Now that we've got the sizes right, how would that be represented mechanically?

Firstly, we have Large Size (Space 10 ft, Reach 5 ft), similar to a Medium creature with Powerful Build except for the actual space increase (due to having a horse attached to you). Using a Heavy Warhorse's stats as inspiration, we get physical modifiers of +8 Str, +2 Dex, and +4 Con, which is nearly identical to the centaur as it is now (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con). The slight Dexterity increase for having hands makes sense, so keeping it as-is would work. What of mental stats? Obviously, some penalty is needed here. Negative Intelligence and Charisma with neutral Wisdom seem to be the most realistic.

So far we have the following:

Size/Type: Large Monstrous Humanoid
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Abilities: +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha


It's slightly nerfed from before, but still not enough to warrant lowering the RHD/LA which make it pretty much unplayable.

What next?


___

P.S. Yes, I am aware of the Centaur on page 161 of Savage Species. It doesn't really change anything.

[PhantasyPen]

This was what I personally did for a recent campaign (please note I had two different "types" of centaurs in this world, grassland centaurs were the ones described in the monster manual.):

Centaurs of both species count as having the Mounted Combat feat (PHB) for purposes of determining prerequisites. Centaurs of both types always count as being mounted.
Centaurs of both species have four (4) hoof attacks. For grasslands centaurs these deal 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage and for forest centaurs their hoof attacks deal 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage.
The following statistics are unique to Grasslands centaurs:
Ability Score Bonuses: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis
Large Size: grasslands centaurs are counted as large creatures, however their human torsos are Mediumsized, and require them to wield weapons sized for medium creatures.
Grasslands centaurs have a land speed of 50 feet.

[Blue Jay]

I already shared my rebuild in the One-Sentence Fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22457948&postcount=152) thread, but I might as well bring it here.

There are two things that I particularly don't like about the centaur's mechanics: the Large (long) rules and the Intelligence penalty. I also don't like the high ECL: the usual starting point for my games is 3rd level, and I'd like to be able to play a monster that is ECL 3 for that purpose.

I want them to play more as normal people than as brutish monsters, so I basically nerf them down to something less powerful. I also make them count as humanoid for spells, effects and prerequisites, so they're that much more like the standard races. I also downgrade Darkvision to Low-light vision.

Large (long) is a net handicap, so I feel like Large (long) creatures should get a little boon: let them count as Medium on attack rolls (no -1 to hit). I prefer to think of a centaur as having the build of a light horse, and having a humanoid torso the same size as a human's. So, I knock the weapons down a size category, and also make them count as Medium for grapple checks. A net nerf overall, but I feel like a nerf is appropriate, given that this more adequately represents the weirdness of the centaur's anatomy.

As far as stats, I've been using +6 Str, +4 Con, but I'm inclined to lower that even further. I think +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con (which fits the stats for a light horse). I've gone back and forth on the Wis bonus, but I definitely don't want the Int penalty.

So, here are the stats I think I'd prefer to use from here on:
Large (Tauric) Monstrous Humanoid
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis
Base land speed 50 feet
Count as Medium on attack rolls, weapon size and grapple checks
Count as Humanoid for spells, effects and prerequisites
Automatic proficiency with longbows and longswords
2 hooves 1d4+Str (bludgeoning)
Natural Armor +3
3 RHD
Racial Class Skills: Balance, Craft, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival
+4 Balance and Jump, -4 Climb and Tumble
LA +0

-----

I also did a remake of the Tauric Creature template that's a lot simpler. Instead of combining two creatures, I just take a base creature with a nonhumanoid body plan, and give it a humanoid torso. It loses its bite attack and head-based attacks. It gains human-like hands, the Monstrous Humanoid type, and Intelligence 3d6. It counts as one size smaller for attack rolls, weapon size and grapple checks (just like a centaur does). And that's it.

[SirNibbles]

I already shared my rebuild in the One-Sentence Fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22457948&postcount=152) thread, but I might as well bring it here.

There are two things that I particularly don't like about the centaur's mechanics: the Large (long) rules and the Intelligence penalty. I also don't like the high ECL: the usual starting point for my games is 3rd level, and I'd like to be able to play a monster that is ECL 3 for that purpose.

I want them to play more as normal people than as brutish monsters, so I basically nerf them down to something less powerful. I also make them count as humanoid for spells, effects and prerequisites, so they're that much more like the standard races. I also downgrade Darkvision to Low-light vision.

Large (long) is a net handicap, so I feel like Large (long) creatures should get a little boon: let them count as Medium on attack rolls (no -1 to hit). I prefer to think of a centaur as having the build of a light horse, and having a humanoid torso the same size as a human's. So, I knock the weapons down a size category, and also make them count as Medium for grapple checks. A net nerf overall, but I feel like a nerf is appropriate, given that this more adequately represents the weirdness of the centaur's anatomy.

As far as stats, I've been using +6 Str, +4 Con, but I'm inclined to lower that even further. I think +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con (which fits the stats for a light horse). I've gone back and forth on the Wis bonus, but I definitely don't want the Int penalty.

So, here are the stats I think I'd prefer to use from here on:
Large (Tauric) Monstrous Humanoid
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis
Base land speed 50 feet
Count as Medium on attack rolls, weapon size and grapple checks
Count as Humanoid for spells, effects and prerequisites
Automatic proficiency with longbows and longswords
2 hooves 1d4+Str (bludgeoning)
Natural Armor +3
3 RHD
Racial Class Skills: Balance, Craft, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival
+4 Balance and Jump, -4 Climb and Tumble
LA +0

-----

I also did a remake of the Tauric Creature template that's a lot simpler. Instead of combining two creatures, I just take a base creature with a nonhumanoid body plan, and give it a humanoid torso. It loses its bite attack and head-based attacks. It gains human-like hands, the Monstrous Humanoid type, and Intelligence 3d6. It counts as one size smaller for attack rolls, weapon size and grapple checks (just like a centaur does). And that's it.

I think the idea of treating a centaur as basically a medium humanoid mounted on a horse for attacking works well if you ignore the description about it being a 2,100 pound behemoth. I have no problem with going ahead and ignoring that part and ending up with a lighter, smaller horse with a normal human attached to it instead of a giant war steed with Andre the Giant attached.

For reference, here's what an Andre the Giant centaur which weighs 2,000 pounds would look like compared to a normal human riding him:
https://i.imgur.com/vdHzDnS.jpg



Basically, your rules work well if we use the Greek interpretation of a centaur.

[Nifft]

The MM Centaur is playable... in T4 and lower games.

If you want a Centaur that's competitive with a Human Wizard, you're going to need to homebrew what is effectively a new race... or just ignore the idea of Centaur having a mechanically monstrous race, give the damn thing the stats of a regular humanoid (with a big horse-shaped butt) and let people play regular humanoids with oddly shaped behinds.

Mechanically, you could just make a feat:


Horsebutt [General]

Wait, no, that's bad.


Centaur [General]
Prerequisite: Human, level 1 only
Benefit: You have a horse as the lower half of your body. Your move speed is 40 ft., but you can't wear normal shoes since you've got horse feet, and your armor is more expensive because it has to cover a horse-body. You are a quadruped. You occupy a 10 ft. square, but you're not Large.
Special: You can only take this feat at 1st level.


Centaur Paragon (racial class)
Prerequisite: Horsebutt Centaur feat

HD: d8
Class Skills (4+Int): Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Centaur paragons are proficient with all simple weapons, all martial bows, and with light armor and shields (but not tower shields).



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features
Spellcasting


1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Horse of Nature
--


2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0
Gallop
+1 level


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Hoss
+1 level



Spellcasting: Just like Human Paragon, except you're part horse.

Horse of Nature (Ex): Add 1 + your paragon class level to all Survival & Handle Animal checks, and to Spot & Listen checks in a natural setting.

Gallop (Ex): Your racial speed increases to 50 ft.

Hoss: You become Large, but you're a PC so you gain a mere +4 Strength and +2 Con instead of the usual ability score adjustments. Other than that, you suffer all the usual Large penalties (-1 to AC and attack rolls, -4 to Hide checks, etc.), and gain Large benefits (+4 to Grapple, you can use Large weapons, etc.). You still occupy a 10 ft. square and your reach is still 5 ft.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The bariaur from the Planar Handbook has the same shape as a centaur, except it looks like it's half-ram instead of half-horse. It has the following stats:

• +2 Str, –2 Cha
• Outsider
• Medium
• Speed of 40'
• Darkvision 60'
• Quadruped
• Powerful Charge (ram attack that deals 2d6+1.5x Str bludgeoning damage)
• SR 11 + class level
• +2 racial bonus on Will saves vs spells and SLAs
• Skills: +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks
• Favored Class: Ranger
• LA +1
• RHD 0

[Pugwampy]

I think the best thing you could do for any centaur is to give it druid class for the wildshapes .

Sure its very strong in combat and can carry the whole party but out of combat its about as physically convenient as Jabba the Hut joining your group .

you going to need to climb sooner or later and visit the town .

[bahamut920]

I think the best thing you could do for any centaur is to give it druid class for the wildshapes .
Pretty sure you could swap out "centaur" in that sentence above for pretty much any race and it would still be arguably true.

OP, either make a "lesser centaur" that is statistically more in line with the PHB races (slightly better ability scores and a slightly higher base speed doesn't really make for a LA +1 race), or go with the Horsebutt feat solution. You could dump the LA off of the bariaur presented below by changing type to Monstrous Humanoid and replacing the SR and Powerful Charge and with "counts as mounted for prereqs and when charging" (or go with Pathfinder and make it a racial feat for them). You could even give them +2 Con if you want, or make them Large (long) with the proviso that they wield weapons as Medium creatures, and maybe Run or Endurance for free. Allow centaur PCs to take the Centaur Paragon racial paragon class presented by Nifft. These centaurs would be smaller and weaker than the MM centaurs and could be used either alongside them (perhaps as "forest centaurs" and/or "desert centaurs" with the MM centaurs living in the plains), or they might replace the centaurs from the MM in your campaign setting.

In fact, here's the bariaur block with the changes I've suggested:
Lesser Centaur (or whatever you want to call it)

+2 Strength, (+2 Constitution), -2 Charisma. Lesser centaurs are strong (and hardy) like the horses they resemble, but are standoffish around non-centaurs.
Monstrous Humanoid type. Lesser centaurs are monstrous humanoids. They do not automatically gain proficiency with all simple weapons, however, and receive weapon proficiencies by class.
Large size. A lesser centaur's body takes up more space than a normal humanoid's. Unlike many other Large humanoids, lesser centaurs only have a 5 ft. reach, due to their humanoid portion being roughly human-sized.
Fast. Lesser centaurs have a base land speed of 40 ft.
Low-light vision. Lesser centaurs see twice as well as a human in conditions of low light.
Darkvision 60 ft. A lesser centaur can see up to 60 ft. in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise identical to normal sight.
Lesser centaurs receive Run as a bonus feat. They do not need to meet the prerequisites.
Charger (Ex): A lesser centaur counts as mounted under certain specific circumstances. He may take feats requiring Mounted Combat as if he possessed that feat, and counts as mounted when charging for the purposes of determining damage from a lance or the Spirited Charge feat.
Keen senses: A lesser centaur gains a +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
Undersized Weapons: A lesser centaur counts as a Medium creature for the purposes of determining what weapons it can wield.
Favored Class: Ranger. A lesser centaur's ranger levels do not count when determining multiclass experience point penalties.
LA +0
0 Racial Hit Dice. A lesser centaur advances by class levels, not by Hit Dice.

[ShurikVch]

Other depictions, such as this Ancient Greek sculpture show a body which is very similar in size to a human, with the horse part scaled down greatly.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/clas/pathways/acropoli/acro26.jpg

However, the Greek depiction shows a rather small horse which would be neither 7 feet tall nor 2,100 pounds.Note: legendary Lapiths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapiths) aren't humans - Lapithes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapithes_(hero)) and Centaurus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurus_(Greek_mythology)) are brothers

[SirNibbles]

Note: legendary Lapiths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapiths) aren't humans - Lapithes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapithes_(hero)) and Centaurus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurus_(Greek_mythology)) are brothers

My understanding is that the Lapiths were a tribe of humans descended from Lapithes, who was also a human. Wikipedia says they were a subgroup of Aeolians, one of the four major tribes of Ancient Greece.

__

I like Nifft's idea, and also the idea of using the bariaur as a base.

__

Even in a Tier IV game, a Centaur seems weak. Its favoured class is Ranger, so let's compare it to that.

Centaur 4/Ranger 1 (ECL 7) vs Human Ranger 7 (ECL 7)

A Human Ranger would have BAB 7, Improved Combat Style, 1st level spells (one level from 2nd), and 2 favoured enemies. 7d8 HP.

A Centaur Ranger would have BAB 4, Combat Style, no spells, and 1 favoured enemy, but +8 Str/+4 Dex/+4 Con/+2 Wis. It would also have fewer skill points. 5d8 HP.

If you add in things like Mystic Ranger, you've got 3rd level spells when the Centaur is casting 1st level spells. No contest.

[ShurikVch]

My understanding is that the Lapiths were a tribe of humans descended from Lapithes, who was also a human.Lapithes, according to myth, was son of Apollo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo) (god) and Stilbe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilbe) (nymph).
If neither of parents were humans, then how, exactly, their childen may be humans?
Some sources describes Lapiths as "tree-folk".

Wikipedia says they were a subgroup of Aeolians, one of the four major tribes of Ancient Greece.It's IRL information.
IRL, Lapiths were humans
But also, IRL, Lapiths weren't in war with centaurs
That's why I wrote "legendary Lapiths"

Also, centaurs of Greek myths were, apparently, even bigger than in D&D - they're used uprooted trees as a weapon! For example, they stopped invulnerable Caeneus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caeneus) by burying him in logs and rocks. Sticks and stones couldn't break his bones, but still certainly stopped him from moving (and, possibly, from breathing too)

[Phaederkiel]

I do not want to spoil your fun, but centaurs are plenty playable.

I had one in a party i DM'ed for, a Centaur cleric, and he was a menace. He would probably have been even stronger as a barbarian, fighter or druid, but even as a cleric he would ride-by kite-lance opponents for obscene amounts of damage.

We played the campaign up to lvl 14, and while he might have been somewhat frail, and i might not have been the most experienced DM back then, I am sure the player had two blasts and a half playing him.

I sometimes think that TOs to not include some of the more practical gameplay benefits of some races into their calculations. Centaurs have a great speed, can probably utilize some incredible and underprized horseshoes (+30ft speed at some 3000k gold? There is even an option with some +10 int and flying for 30k), and have mounted combat built-in.

Making a monstrous charger just got one feat cheaper. They do not need to push their ride check, nor their handle animal. And their stats are really good for a charger, too.

btw, i really laughed about the andré-centaur.

[Greenflame133]

I feel like question should be about making centaurs playable, but about making it a template. Let's call it half-centurys. It would have 3 size variations (medium, large and huge). Half-century would have following stats
Size: baze+1 (for all intends experts using weapons. Weapons as for base size and shealds for both sizes)
Speed: dubbed baze
Mountable by creatures of base size and small
Quadruple +4 to check for balance
+4 str
+2 dex
-2 char
-2 int
Boiss language: forest
Mix of LA and monter humanoid (saves beast on that) lv for balance.

I'm not set on any numbers, but cenarusness given by template would allow for more crazy strategies.

Side note: horses used to be smaller. It was humans who contributed to increase of size. That's why greak censors are smaller

[EldritchWeaver]

In the PF book Bloodforge, the decataurs are described as medium-sized ponytaurs. They are suitable for class levels, as they don't have racial HD.

[Telonius]

For the race name - maybe millitaur?

[Blue Jay]

I think the idea of treating a centaur as basically a medium humanoid mounted on a horse for attacking works well if you ignore the description about it being a 2,100 pound behemoth. I have no problem with going ahead and ignoring that part and ending up with a lighter, smaller horse with a normal human attached to it instead of a giant war steed with Andre the Giant attached.

...

Basically, your rules work well if we use the Greek interpretation of a centaur.

Frankly, I don't really care for the descriptive text for a lot of monsters. I think WotC tended to look up typical weight ranges for animals, and pick the high end of it, just for the drama potential. Sometimes, they even say absurd things like deinonychus weighing 600 lbs (in reality, it was probably close to the same weight as a typical human).

2000-lb horses do exist, but they're specially-bred, large draft horses like Clydesdales, Percherons and Shires. To me, a lighter, wild horse like a mustang or tarpan makes a lot more sense, considering the habitat and ecology described for a centaur. That's why I'd prefer to use the statistics of a smaller horse.


I do not want to spoil your fun, but centaurs are plenty playable.

Making a monstrous charger just got one feat cheaper. They do not need to push their ride check, nor their handle animal. And their stats are really good for a charger, too.

Note that centaurs don't actually count as having Mounted Combat: they're just allowed to ignore the prereqs for two specific feats --- Spirited Charge and Trample. But, this comes from Races of Faerun, which also increased their LA to +3 and made a few other minor changes (e.g., hooves count as primary weapons, they can qualify for arcane archer, and the typical feats are change). Arguably, the LA increase was assigned to account for the changes made, and since those changes and the concomitant increased LA are in conflict with the primary source (the MM), they probably aren't canon.

But, if you try to do anything with a centaur except be a charger with a lance, you're going to suffer. It's a very narrow optimization peak, and it doesn't even fit the in-game fluff for the race, which just kind of makes ita nnoying and ugly. One of the other reasons I like the idea of using Medium weapons is to reduce the attractiveness of that centaur charger idea, so it's no longer the only way to play a centaur, and you can justify a much lower ECL that's much more conducive to doing other things with a centaur (hence, more playable).

[SirNibbles]

Frankly, I don't really care for the descriptive text for a lot of monsters. I think WotC tended to look up typical weight ranges for animals, and pick the high end of it, just for the drama potential. Sometimes, they even say absurd things like deinonychus weighing 600 lbs (in reality, it was probably close to the same weight as a typical human).

2000-lb horses do exist, but they're specially-bred, large draft horses like Clydesdales, Percherons and Shires. To me, a lighter, wild horse like a mustang or tarpan makes a lot more sense, considering the habitat and ecology described for a centaur. That's why I'd prefer to use the statistics of a smaller horse.


Note that centaurs don't actually count as having Mounted Combat: they're just allowed to ignore the prereqs for two specific feats --- Spirited Charge and Trample. But, this comes from Races of Faerun, which also increased their LA to +3 and made a few other minor changes (e.g., hooves count as primary weapons, they can qualify for arcane archer, and the typical feats are change). Arguably, the LA increase was assigned to account for the changes made, and since those changes and the concomitant increased LA are in conflict with the primary source (the MM), they probably aren't canon.

But, if you try to do anything with a centaur except be a charger with a lance, you're going to suffer. It's a very narrow optimization peak, and it doesn't even fit the in-game fluff for the race, which just kind of makes it annoying and ugly. One of the other reasons I like the idea of using Medium weapons is to reduce the attractiveness of that centaur charger idea, so it's no longer the only way to play a centaur, and you can justify a much lower ECL that's much more conducive to doing other things with a centaur (hence, more playable).

Yes, it seems that in order to balance it you have to go with a smaller horse and ignore the descriptive text.

Pretty much copying what you have:

+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on opposed grapple checks. A centaur wields weapons as if it were a medium creature and attacks as if it were a medium creature riding a large mount. A centaur is treated as having the Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery feats.
Quadruped: lifting and carrying limits triple those of normal Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/5 feet.
A centaur’s base land speed is 50 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Weapon Proficiency: Centaurs are automatically proficient with the longsword, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.
Racial Hit Dice: A centaur begins with three levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Swim.
Racial Feats: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats and is treated as having the necessary Ride skill to meet any feat requirements.
+2 natural armor bonus.
+4 racial bonus on Balance and Jump checks, -4 racial penalty on Climb, Move Silently and Tumble checks.
Natural Attacks: 2 hooves (1d6)
Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnome, Halfling.
Favored Class: Ranger.
Level adjustment +0.

You are still very limited outside of combat, especially since you start 3 levels behind, but I think it's not that bad. If you go with a scout-type role, your speed and Darkvision are able to come into play. If you strictly keep track of carrying capacity, you can be an asset to your party by carrying their stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You should also give centaurs the ability to take feats and PrCs and such as though they have Mounted Combat, as that is a prereq for a LOT of mounted stuff, but it would do centaurs no good at all, making it a complete waste of a feat. Unless they count as both mounted and unmounted (whichever benefits them more) for the purposes of...everything. Being able to make Ride checks to prevent yourself from taking damage would be pretty nice, and it would actually make Mounted Combat a pretty great option, as opposed to the borderline dreck it is now.

[Blue Jay]

You should also give centaurs the ability to take feats and PrCs and such as though they have Mounted Combat, as that is a prereq for a LOT of mounted stuff, but it would do centaurs no good at all, making it a complete waste of a feat. Unless they count as both mounted and unmounted (whichever benefits them more) for the purposes of...everything. Being able to make Ride checks to prevent yourself from taking damage would be pretty nice, and it would actually make Mounted Combat a pretty great option, as opposed to the borderline dreck it is now.

Aside from Spirited Charge and Trample, a centaur really can't use any of the other mounted feats, because most of them focus on removing penalties associated with fighting on horseback. A lot of them have unmounted equivalent feats, and Races of the Wild gave centaurs their own version of the Trample feat, so they don't really need most of the mounted combat feats, anyway. Perhaps Cavalry Charger could still be used, but it's really not that exciting.

I actually homebrewed a racial PrC called "Centaur Courser," which gave the centaur the ability to treat itself as mounted: negate a hit once per round (using Ref instead of Ride), and make a ranged full attack while moving (which is obviously pretty amazing for skirmishers), etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have a Centaur in my campaign. He joined at ECL 7, and they're ECL 18 now. The start was rough of course, but I think he quickly was up to par w/ the rest of the party. What I did was simple: Racial HD reduced to 2. The LA remained +2. Nothing else changed (less racial HD meant less skill points and feats, of course).
I do also have a rule for anyone w/ racial HD: You can delay the x4 skill multiplier until your first class HD. Which of course, he used, since the class he went w/ had 6 + Int skill points.

[VisitingDaGulag]

I posted in a separate thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533018-The-LA-Assignment-Thread-1-Or-Inevitably-Rejected&p=22458174#post22458174), where centaurs were mentioned specifically, that the solution for "Why does my monsterous race choice gimp my character?" that monsters as a whole are fundamentally over-valued in the ECL equation (by about half the LA should becoming free RHD). The only monsters that aren't overvalued are the kind with racial casting, but that's more the fault of the player class than the race.

[Thurbane]

For reference, here's what an Andre the Giant centaur which weighs 2,000 pounds would look like compared to a normal human riding him:
https://i.imgur.com/vdHzDnS.jpg

All I can say is thank you. Thank you so much for that image - it's really made my day! :smallbiggrin:

[Blue Jay]

Here's another thing I'm developing at the moment. This is designed for use with E6 rules: the basic idea is that some relatively powerful monsters can have a base race (with just the bare essentials), and an optional racial class that gives them a fuller suite of racial abilities (basically a racial paragon class). Maybe this should go the Homebrew section, but for now I'll post it here.

My base races basically copy the style of Grod's races (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920446&postcount=3). Here's the centaur:


Type: Monstrous Humanoid
Size: Large
Speed: Base land speed 40 feet
Senses: Low-light vision
Ability Modifier: +2 Str
Racial Skills: Jump and Survival. Racial skills always count as class skills. When rolling a racial skill, roll twice and take the better result.
Racial Feat: Centaurs receive either Run or Centaur Trample as a bonus feat at 1st level
Weapon Familiarity: Centaurs may treat longbows and composite longbows as simple weapons
Quadruped: Centaurs gain a +4 bonus on checks to resist Bull Rush and Trip attempts. Centaurs also gain a +4 racial bonus on all Balance checks, but a -4 racial penalty on Climb and Tumble checks. A centaur's carrying capacity is three times that of a Medium creature.
Tauric Humanoid: Centaurs count as one size category smaller for attack rolls, weapon size and grapple checks. They have the reach of a long creature of their size. They also count as Humanoids for spells and effects that target them, and for prerequisites.
Tough Hide: Centaurs have a +1 natural armor bonus to AC
Natural Weaponry: Centaurs have two primary hoof attacks that deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage.


Hit Die: d10
Skills Points per Level: 4 + Int
Balance
Craft
Intimidate
Jump
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (nature)
Listen
Move Silently
Spot
Survival



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1
+1.00
+2.50
+2.50
+0.33
Hurdle, Woodland Stride


2
+2.00
+3.00
+3.00
+0.67
Combat Style


3
+3.00
+3.50
+3.50
+1.00
+2 Dex


4
+4.00
+4.00
+4.00
+1.33
Fast Movement +10 feet


5
+5.00
+4.50
+4.50
+1.67
Improved Combat Style


6
+6.00
+5.00
+5.00
+2.00
+2 Str



A centaur is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor, but not with shields.

A centaur may use the Jump skill to avoid attacks of opportunity, as if it were the Tumble skill. Once per round, a centaur with the Centaur Trample feat who successfully avoids attacks of opportunity in this manner may make one hoof attack against one opponent whose attack of opportunity he successfully avoids, just as if he had succeeded on an Overrun attempt against that opponent, although the opponent is not knocked prone.

A centaur may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.

At 2nd level, a centaur begins training in one of two combat styles: archer or charger. He counts as having the Mounted Combat feat for the purposes of prerequisites for feats and prestige classes. He gains a special combat bonus at 2nd level, and a bonus feat at 5th level, which represent his chosen combat style.

Archer: A centaur who chooses this combat style is treated like a human archer mounted on a horse for the purposes of archery. He may attack with a ranged weapon (even making a full attack) while moving, taking a penalty on his attack rolls as if he were a humanoid riding a mount. At 5th level, he gains Mounted Archery as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. If he already has Mounted Archery, he instead gains Improved Mounted Archery.

Charger: A centaur who chooses this combat style is treated as a humanoid warrior mounted on a horse for the purposes of charge attacks. Additionally, while performing a Charge attack, a centaur charger can perform one Overrun maneuver against a foe who stands between him and the target of his Charge attack. This Overrun maneuver is considered part of the movement for the Charge. At 5th level, he gains Spirited Charge as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. If he already has Spirited Charge, he instead gains Leap Attack.

At 3rd level, a centaur gains a +2 inherent bonus to his Dexterity score.
At 6th level, a centaur gains a +2 inherent bonus to his Strength score.

At 4th level, a centaur's base Land speed increases by 10 feet.

[Rizban]

The Dragonlance book Bestiary of Krynn has the Wendle Centaur. "A typical Wendle centaur is about 5 feet tall and weighs close to 800 pounds."
+4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Medium, Speed 40, Darkvision 60 +5 Nat AC
2 RHD, +1 LA

[Psyren]

Pathfinder modifies the entry to be "over 7 ft. tall" and "upwards of 2000 lbs." They also ditched the LA, giving them a minimum ECL of 3 instead of 6 - much more playable. You buy off an additional "LA" as you level, letting Centaurs achieve a maximum class level of 18 pre-epic.