Knocking down PC a peg

[Kotenkiri]

so im running a personal adventure and my players have more or less gone heavy on magic. An Gunsmith artificer, Barbarian, Undying Warlock, Hexblade Warlock and a Cleric/Barb pirate. All are level 3. They managed to deal with what i could while keeping it somewhat fair.
Im looking to make an encounter where their dependence on magic offense becomes a handicap.

[Sariel Vailo]

Anti magic field. Lots of anti magic field silence rhe spell and something else remove any and moat capabilties to kill spells

[greenstone]

(1) Stage a murder mystery. Complicate it by saying that the legal system does not recognise evidence obtained through magical means.

Sure, the party might use divination and mind reading to find out that the butler did it, but they still have to prove it to the satisfaction of the legal system. "I read the thoughts of the butler," is not going to sway a judge; it might actually expose the PCs to charges of privacy violation, slander, or worse.

Alternatively, frame the PCs for a horrible crime, with the same limitation on the legal system. Now the PCs have to prove their innocence and catch the real killer while ensuring they have mundane evidence and justification to back up the stuff they did with magic.

(2) An escort-based mission, where the person who they are escorting has a very low opinion of magic and that opinion is extremely valuable to the PCs.

Perhaps the escort is a diplomat and their good opinion of the PCs will directly impact on how much the PCs are paid.

Now the players have a great choice, with real consequences for every choice. Use lots of magic to overcome battles at the cost of not getting decent payment for the job. Or, use very little magic and get highly paid but risk getting defeated in combat. Choices with real consequences are always good.

[Kane0]

A construct or whatever that is part of the jext encounter thats has the sole function to cast dispells/counterspells. It’s otherwise a noncombatant. Magic items can also do this but its not as satisfying to target and kill and they run the risk of falling into the party’s hands.

Silence, antimagic fields and grappling (not pure RAW grappling though oddly) can also do the trick.

[JNAProductions]

Question: Why do you feel the need to do this?

Challenging the players is good, but let them shine. If they're having fun (and so are you, of course) I see no reason to try knocking them down a peg.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

If you are doing this to let the non magic users shine....

Devils and Demons have been annoying my Lore Bard for a dozen sessions. Their advantage on saves vs magic and all.

Prior to that when my Bard was mind controlled or possessed I was forced to attack my teammates. They essentially grappled and waterboarded my character to negate her spell casting abilities.

[PracticalM]

Question: Why do you feel the need to do this?

Challenging the players is good, but let them shine. If they're having fun (and so are you, of course) I see no reason to try knocking them down a peg.

I endorse this position as well. What is your motivation for taking the characters down?
Creating a hard challenge for them to solve without magic is fine, but are your players going to enjoy it?

[Laserlight]

so im running a personal adventure and my players have more or less gone heavy on magic. An Gunsmith artificer, Barbarian, Undying Warlock, Hexblade Warlock and a Cleric/Barb pirate. All are level 3. They managed to deal with what i could while keeping it somewhat fair.
Im looking to make an encounter where their dependence on magic offense becomes a handicap.

Why? The DM's job is not to "knock a PC down a peg". And players who build magic users are saying "I want to solve problems with magic, rather than by hitting things with a sharp stick or being a skillmonkey". Is there a reason you don't want them doing what they're built to do? If they were all fighters and rogues, would you want to make their dependence on physical attacks a handicap?

For a party which has gotten used to one set of tactics, I can see throwing them a curveball every now and again, but that doesn't sound like what you're asking about. They can't have gotten too jaded to one set of tactics if they're only level 3.

[Toadkiller]

Love the murder mystery idea. It gives you a chance for you to let them do more than usual with their character for a session or two. It is hard for the players to get upset if you’re trying to give them new fun stuff to do.

[JackPhoenix]

Some kind of contest or competition where magic is forbidden and considered cheating, prize is something PC's need/want, either item, or audience with NPC, or just money and fame. Of course, that doesn't mean the players can't cheat, but they'll have to be more careful and inventive with it.

AL had one season's base town biased against spellcasters, and casting obvious spells led to trouble with guards. PotA, I think?

[Kane0]

Anything with magic resistance (advantage on saves, half damage or both)

Helmed horror: immunity to force damage and three spells of choice.

[Deleted]

Have them need to pick a plant for a medicine that withers when around magic. Not only will they have to stay 20' away unless they want even their Cantrips to cause then to make another trip... They must scout out and make sure the rival team doesn't cast magic within 20'.

Don't so stuff like this a lot, then them have their fantasy fun... Or else why are they even playing.

[Kane0]

A wild magic or spellscarred area is also another option.

[Azgeroth]

i think it would help if you could give a little more exposition,

given you only have 1 pure melee character, them using magic all the time is hardly a suprise.. if it is purely the mindscape of a dazzling light show is not what you want, sorry, tough luck the PC's out number you, and its their game too..

if its because its a round table of ELDRIC BLAST!! then add some force resistance in there..

[Kotenkiri]

Reason for this: to be honest, they're getting about obnoxious when playing so it frustrating me abit. They think they can kill anything I put in front of them, I tend to give a lot of outs and fudge some rolls. So looking for ideas to show them how dangerous it can get without a tpk.

[lebefrei]

Stop fudging rolls and put hard encounters in front of them. They're overconfident? Challenge them. You don't need some workaround, just give them harder fights. DMs shouldn't avoid killing the party, but it also shouldn't be your goal. Don't be unfair, but be hard.

Also, don't allow UA characters if you feel your players are too powerful. None of that stuff is really tested yet.

[Contrast]

so im running a personal adventure and my players have more or less gone heavy on magic. An Gunsmith artificer, Barbarian, Undying Warlock, Hexblade Warlock and a Cleric/Barb pirate. All are level 3. They managed to deal with what i could while keeping it somewhat fair.
Im looking to make an encounter where their dependence on magic offense becomes a handicap.

Heavy on magic? You have 5 players and the only full caster is multiclassed into barbarian of all things (putting warlocks into a separate category anyway). This seems about average magic for 5E to me.


Reason for this: to be honest, they're getting about obnoxious when playing so it frustrating me abit. They think they can kill anything I put in front of them, I tend to give a lot of outs and fudge some rolls. So looking for ideas to show them how dangerous it can get without a tpk.

So you give them lots of outs and fudge rolls and want ideas for how to make things more dangerous. :smallconfused: ...don't do those things?

[Kotenkiri]

Only multi class is the cleric bard. Looking for not hard encounters to kill them but rather screw around with their pick of characters.

[Kane0]

- Wight with two zombies
- Spined Devil with a half dozen lemures
- One tridrone, two duodrones and four monodrones
- Two gricks or ankhegs
- Three tigers
- Ogre with four goblins
- Two lizardfolk with a shaman
- One bulette or elemental

Throw three to four of these at your party in the same day, see if they're laughing after that. Keep the outs for them to retreat, but don't fudge the rolls.

[tsotate]

Only multi class is the cleric bard. Looking for not hard encounters to kill them but rather screw around with their pick of characters.
I'll join the chorus asking, "Why would you want to do that?"

If you don't want your players to enjoy their character choices, I'm not sure cooperative RPGs are your thing.

[Laserlight]

If you're new to DMing 5e, which is what it sounds like, then a key point is that the ”encounter difficulty ratings” assume that the party is facing several encounters per long rest. My party usually only gets one or two fights per day, therefore I put them well into ”Deadly”. Since they have full resources for these fights, nobody has died in 2+ years and it's unusual for one to hit 0hp.
Also, an encounter doesn't have to be a fight; it can be something else that costs spell slots and/or hit points. Cross a river, scout a guarded location, climb a cliff in the rain, influence a crowd.

[nickl_2000]

Crag Cat, lots and lots of Crag Cats

Crag Cat SKT
Large beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13
Hit Points 34 (4d10+12)
Speed 40 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
16 (+3) 17 (+3) 16 (+3) 4 (-3) 14 (+2) 8 (-1)
Skills Stealth +7
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages --
Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Nondetection. The cat cannot be targeted or detected by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

Pounce. If the cat moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature then hits it with a claw attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the cat can make one bite attack against it as a bonus action.

Spell Turning. The cat has advantage on saving throws against any spell that tagets only the cat (not an area). If the cat's saving throw succeeds and the spell is of 7th level or lower, the spell has no effect on the cat and instead tagets the caster.
Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d10+3) piercing damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8+3) slashing damage.

[Lombra]

Throw at them three deadly encounters (400xp each)/day, one before their first short rest, one after the first one, and one at the end of the day, don't fudge and don't put more than one monster with a CR of 4 or greater per encounter, at least one of the three ancounters should have a big baddie with magic resistance (but not physical resistance) if you want for them to mix it up.

But mostly, don't get upset by your players' behaviour, if they are acting cocky it's because they are having fun, throw some unexpected challanges now and then to make them stop and think for a second, but don't try to punish them. Punishment is never good for the game.

[Malifice]

so im running a personal adventure and my players have more or less gone heavy on magic. An Gunsmith artificer, Barbarian, Undying Warlock, Hexblade Warlock and a Cleric/Barb pirate. All are level 3. They managed to deal with what i could while keeping it somewhat fair.
Im looking to make an encounter where their dependence on magic offense becomes a handicap.

Multiple encounters. They should be getting around 6 in between long rests. And around 2 short rests during that same time.

Of course, you actually have 2 warlocks there, so also dont forget to police the short rests.

Make sure they dont get one after each encounter. Make sure they get 6 encounters per long rest on average.

[the_brazenburn]

Golems, golems, golems. Have some sort of insane mage (yes, yes, I know) with a factory full of golems of different types. It'll be a fun challenge to find out what spells actually damage which golems, and which give them extra HP!

[Deleted]

Reason for this: to be honest, they're getting about obnoxious when playing so it frustrating me abit. They think they can kill anything I put in front of them, I tend to give a lot of outs and fudge some rolls. So looking for ideas to show them how dangerous it can get without a tpk.

Sounds like you shouldn't be a DM.

It isn't the fudging rolls, but the DM versus Player attitude you got going on.

[Sariel Vailo]

The goal is to tell a story or crawl a dungeon.not tpk

[Throne12]

I know what your talking about I been there. First don't
allow anything buy published material. Next learn how to use cr property. The way it the dmg is a guide line but can't give you all the answers. Then have more them one encounter per Adventuring day. Also a encounter doesn't mean a monster fight. Get more creative with encounters use Terrain, puzzles, ECT. A puzzle may need then to Poor magical energy into something to active it ,opening it or what ever (by pooring magical energy means spending spell slots.). Have small encounters wetting away from resources leading up to a boss fight.

Also I would fudge dice rolls as well untell. I started roll in the open That changed a lot. ( But I still have bad rolls). Also don't be afraid of killing a pc if you are following the rules ( let the dice fall when they land and deal with the Consequences). Also don't be afraid to say no.

Also change up your DMing style untell you find what works for you and your group.

[Trampaige]

Your campaign is still very new. lvl3 is so low on the EXP chart that you reasonably get there after one or two sessions. You're new to dealing with them, and they're riding high on being big damn heroes.

Don't hate the players, also don't hate the game.

The warlocks have very limited spells available. The cleric/bard is spread thin because of multiclassing.

Something to consider, before the campaign gets too far under way, is if you want to look at gritty realism/long rest variants. Basically, instead of a long rest being overnight, it's something that you can do once a week, or that takes a full week of downtime to achieve. Short rests are typically your normal overnight in this variation.

People aren't automatically rolling with full hp every day, they have to spend HD (of which you only regain half of when you long rest.) And even though the warlocks are going to get their spells back every day, if you throw multiple encounters at them between short rests, they have to decide whether it's worth it to actually burn those spell slots.

The barbarian also won't have rage up for every single fight, making them a lot less bulletproof.

You get to come at them with more attrition and enemy variety, and they have to be mindful of their resources.

[Deleted]

Your campaign is still very new. lvl3 is so low on the EXP chart that you reasonably get there after one or two sessions. You're new to dealing with them, and they're riding high on being big damn heroes.

Don't hate the players, also don't hate the game.

The warlocks have very limited spells available. The cleric/bard is spread thin because of multiclassing.

Something to consider, before the campaign gets too far under way, is if you want to look at gritty realism/long rest variants. Basically, instead of a long rest being overnight, it's something that you can do once a week, or that takes a full week of downtime to achieve. Short rests are typically your normal overnight in this variation.

People aren't automatically rolling with full hp every day, they have to spend HD (of which you only regain half of when you long rest.) And even though the warlocks are going to get their spells back every day, if you throw multiple encounters at them between short rests, they have to decide whether it's worth it to actually burn those spell slots.

The barbarian also won't have rage up for every single fight, making them a lot less bulletproof.

You get to come at them with more attrition and enemy variety, and they have to be mindful of their resources.


Punishing the players for being a bad DM is horrible advice. Instilling that long rest variant just because the DM has a "DM versus player" attitude is horrible choice.

[Trampaige]

Punishing the players for being a bad DM is horrible advice. Instilling that long rest variant just because the DM has a "DM versus player" attitude is horrible choice.

I said don't hate the players.

I don't think it's a punishment at all. My table is enjoying playing under long rest way, way more than we did with 5 minute adventuring days. There's a lot more discussion about whether or not it's worth spending resources, instead of just going nova, or blowing all our magic to solve a problem. As a player, I don't really want to play under normal rest rules again.

Long rest variations help the DM use a greater variety of encounter types, instead of as an above poster said, only fighting horrendously deadly battles because the party is always at full resources.

[Contrast]

Punishing the players for being a bad DM is horrible advice. Instilling that long rest variant just because the DM has a "DM versus player" attitude is horrible choice.

I don't think giving the long rest variant a try is usually bad advice. I've watched a DM struggle with encounter balancing because he was only giving us one or two a day. The moment we fought in a dungeon and had to fight multiple encounters in a short space of time without a chance to catch a breath we had a tough time of it.

The gritty realism rest variant makes it much easier for many DMs to fit in the appropriate number of encounters per long rest without it feeling forced.

This might be an issue for OP however given he has two warlocks and the gritty realism variant as it stands is likely to give you quite a lot of short rests per long rest potentially. On the other hand the utility of spells like hex are also dramatically reduced so swings and roundabouts I guess.

[War_lord]

Any time you're framing your thinking in terms of "teaching my players a lesson" you need to take a step back and rethink things. Your job is not to kill the party, your job is not to humble your players, your job is to make sure everyone at that table enjoys themselves. Stop fudging rolls and start building proper encounters. And stop taking player confidence as a personal insult. Problem solved.

[Deleted]

I said don't hate the players.

I don't think it's a punishment at all. My table is enjoying playing under long rest way, way more than we did with 5 minute adventuring days. There's a lot more discussion about whether or not it's worth spending resources, instead of just going nova, or blowing all our magic to solve a problem. As a player, I don't really want to play under normal rest rules again.

Long rest variations help the DM use a greater variety of encounter types, instead of as an above poster said, only fighting horrendously deadly battles because the party is always at full resources.

You can say that all you want, but your own words show your DM versus player attitude.

You don't have to hate them personally to have this happen, many times it's between friends that this happens.

Stop looking for sneaky ways to punish your players for having a good time, it's unbecoming of a DM and a total breach in trust with your players.

[Trampaige]

You can say that all you want, but your own words show your DM versus player attitude.

You don't have to hate them personally to have this happen, many times it's between friends that this happens.

Stop looking for sneaky ways to punish your players for having a good time, it's unbecoming of a DM and a total breach in trust with your players.

Okay, insist whatever you want. vOv

I'm not the DM.

[Joe the Rat]

Sounds like it's not about magic, but about attitude. My players are now all casters of some vein or another (Warlock 1 on a fighter/rogue is the lowest), and they do punch above their weight class quite often. Not because they are magic, but because they are smart. They change strategies to address different issues.

What I find useful for mental recalibirations:

Change of Encounter: Murder mystery is always a fun one to run - and can generally be resolved with magic if the right spells are available If they're all about the fight, they're going to lack the divinations, and need to do this the hard way.

I did mine with a bit of an Assassination Bureau / Smokin' Aces angle - everybody was ready to be a social or combat encounter, depending on how things shook out. I had four different killers on hand, one of which was actually responsible.

The nice thing about social/investigative scenarios is that you can work combat into it with a little inventiveness. Duelists are tons of fun. The knight or noble with immense pride in their swordsmanship, and are more than happy to go a few rounds to show off. I ran this as a first blood fight - or rather first bloodied (hitting half hit-points was "a telling wound; honor requires you to concede at this point, everyone knows who won."). Note that magic and outside interference is considered bad form (i.e. cheating). So if they want to magic their buddy, they'll need to do a little subterfuge.

Level-appropriate is bullcrap: With the mind that not every encounter has to be combat, not every encounter has to be winnable by combat.
The bandit camp in Tyranny of Dragons - you've got a specific mission, and if you try to take on the whole camp, you will likely get smooshed. You have to solve it without trying to kill everyone at once.

My favorite: Dragons are my go-to (being generally intelligent, tougher than hell, and come with an ability that flat-out kills parties below a certain level.) Meet a dragon. Meet a copper dragon in human form that will be an utter jackwagon and toy with the party in embarrasing ways if they decide that this particular weird dude in the mountains needs a beat on. And demonstrates the value of allies if they make a friend.

Another fun angle: Rakshasa. Flat out spell immunity below a given level. For extra annoyance, have it shapechanged into a cat.

First Rule of Combat: Wizard dies first. When confronted with smart enemies (hobgoblin troops are my go-to, followed by elves), have the enemy focus fire on the biggest casting threat - the most wizardy or clericy looking one of the bunch.

Intelligence: An opponent that can spy on the party can prepare countermeasures. "Oh, these guys use a lot of fire in their smackdowns, I should bring in the Efreeti Twins to take care of them." That sort of thing. Fun fact: City encounters leave a LOT of witnesses.

Flameskulls: Seriously, they're tons of fun, and until your party Arcana/Religions out a long-term solution, they're a recurring threat. I recommend 2. Bonus points for using Gollum and Smeagol as your voices. Or Statler and Waldorf. Oh Hoh hoh hoh!


The point of this isn't to knock them on their asses, but to change how they approach things. Hell, if they take something on, and win by changing their strategies, that's a success for you. If you hit them with something, and they barely win, that's a win for everyone.

[Malifice]

I said don't hate the players.


Dont engage. Noted troll who hates the system. Only posts to say how much he hates the system.

[Forum Explorer]

Reason for this: to be honest, they're getting about obnoxious when playing so it frustrating me abit. They think they can kill anything I put in front of them, I tend to give a lot of outs and fudge some rolls. So looking for ideas to show them how dangerous it can get without a tpk.

My advice? Talk to your players. Tell them that you're getting the impression that they are wanting a more difficult game, and ask if they want you to ramp up the difficulty. Or that you underestimated how powerful they were, and that you'll be making things more difficult as a result so they have a challenge.

As for how, well more encounters, more monsters in said encounters, and/or the Gritty Rest variant are all good suggestions in this thread. You don't need to reach for anti-magic stuff, just look for more clever tactics and simply tougher monsters.

[Easy_Lee]

Why? The DM's job is not to "knock a PC down a peg". And players who build magic users are saying "I want to solve problems with magic, rather than by hitting things with a sharp stick or being a skillmonkey". Is there a reason you don't want them doing what they're built to do? If they were all fighters and rogues, would you want to make their dependence on physical attacks a handicap?

For a party which has gotten used to one set of tactics, I can see throwing them a curveball every now and again, but that doesn't sound like what you're asking about. They can't have gotten too jaded to one set of tactics if they're only level 3.

I agree with this position. Against a DM who designs challenges specifically to work against player weaknesses, the appropriate player response is to build characters with no weaknesses. You'll end up with a party full of Bards and Paladins.

[SharkForce]

in my experience: just be patient. sooner or later you'll put in something that was supposed to be nothing that either by sheer luck (bad rolls for them, good rolls for you) or because some combination of stuff happens to be far more dangerous than you thought it was.

if you haven't almost caused a TPK purely by accident yet, that will probably change :P

(that said, as noted you should make sure to put them into situations where they need to conserve resources from time to time... doing it constantly is just silly, adding encounters that they skipped by intelligent play punishes intelligent play and is a terribly idea, but occasionally they really will be doing a dungeon crawl or equivalent and there legitimately won't be a lot of good places to rest without difficulty. if they give their enemies days to prepare, ask yourself how those enemies would reasonably use that time, and then have them use it; set up traps and ambushes, gather intelligence, move things around so that the party doesn't have familiar terrain, try to trick the party into leaving with a piece of junk instead of the real treasure, or even just get a full day's head start while taking all the loot and now the PCs have to track them down if it looks like their enemies have no hope of winning. but don't go in with an adversarial attitude; you should be creating a world that reacts to the PCs, certainly, but not one built to specially make them suffer. if their enemies wouldn't have digging tools, the party shouldn't find freshly-made pit traps or dirt barricades in the middle of the dungeon. but if their enemies would totally have that? have them occasionally wake up to discover that their resting place was located and the hallways leading to it have all been filled with dirt, and by the way they've already used up 4 hours of air while they were resting :P )

[Plantae]

Sounds like it's not about magic, but about attitude. My players are now all casters of some vein or another (Warlock 1 on a fighter/rogue is the lowest), and they do punch above their weight class quite often. Not because they are magic, but because they are smart. They change strategies to address different issues.

What I find useful for mental recalibirations:

Change of Encounter: Murder mystery is always a fun one to run - and can generally be resolved with magic if the right spells are available If they're all about the fight, they're going to lack the divinations, and need to do this the hard way.

I did mine with a bit of an Assassination Bureau / Smokin' Aces angle - everybody was ready to be a social or combat encounter, depending on how things shook out. I had four different killers on hand, one of which was actually responsible.

The nice thing about social/investigative scenarios is that you can work combat into it with a little inventiveness. Duelists are tons of fun. The knight or noble with immense pride in their swordsmanship, and are more than happy to go a few rounds to show off. I ran this as a first blood fight - or rather first bloodied (hitting half hit-points was "a telling wound; honor requires you to concede at this point, everyone knows who won."). Note that magic and outside interference is considered bad form (i.e. cheating). So if they want to magic their buddy, they'll need to do a little subterfuge.

Level-appropriate is bullcrap: With the mind that not every encounter has to be combat, not every encounter has to be winnable by combat.
The bandit camp in Tyranny of Dragons - you've got a specific mission, and if you try to take on the whole camp, you will likely get smooshed. You have to solve it without trying to kill everyone at once...

The point of this isn't to knock them on their asses, but to change how they approach things. Hell, if they take something on, and win by changing their strategies, that's a success for you. If you hit them with something, and they barely win, that's a win for everyone.

This is the best advice on this thread. You don't need to punish your players with a grueling encounter designed to counter their best abilities. You just need to provide them with a challenge that makes them think a bit differently.

You can accomplish by changing the type of encounter (to something social or investigative, etc.) or by just making your combat encounters more strategically interesting.

That said, if you throw a higher-level encounter at your players, make sure you signal to them that it is something that is more than they can handle. Players have a tendency to assume they're invincible because most encounters are manageable, so make sure you make it clear that fighting in this case is not a good idea.

[Unoriginal]

Are the players getting sure of their chances because they have a lot of magic?

If not, then it's not magic that's the issue.