Druid feat/subclass decisions- halp!

[Sexyshoeless]

Hey friends,

Super excited to be starting a new campaign with some acquaintances, and I have decided to roll a Druid. However, I'm stumped regarding how to plan my character.
Rolled pretty good stats Str 8 Dex 14 con 16 wis 18 int 10 cha 8
After Vhuman boost.

The party is a big one - 2 barbarians, a paladin, a bard, a warlock, an archer rogue and archer ranger. Notably I'm the only divine caster. I'm probably going to be called on as heal bot, BC control and utility a lot. Personally I like to play support characters making other PCs shine, so my play style tends to lean that way.

Questions from a purely optimization standpoint:

#1 I'd really like to go moon Druid for the lol wild shapes, but I'm afraid of stepping on the melee's toes and not being able to cast spells when needed. Would land be the better choice in this party?

#2 feats. I'm currently thinking of going with warcaster (lvl 0), sentinel (4), stat boost wis (8), resilitent con (12h.

Another option I'm thinking of is taking magic initiate (wizard) for find familiar (scouting, RP, free advantage for flanking and ranged heals), message and mold earth. I would take it at level 1 and just push the progression previously listed back.

What do you guys think?

[nickl_2000]

Hey friends,

Super excited to be starting a new campaign with some acquaintances, and I have decided to roll a Druid. However, I'm stumped regarding how to plan my character.
Rolled pretty good stats Str 8 Dex 14 con 16 wis 18 int 10 cha 8
After Vhuman boost.

The party is a big one - 2 barbarians, a paladin, a bard, a warlock, an archer rogue and archer ranger. Notably I'm the only divine caster. I'm probably going to be called on as heal bot, BC control and utility a lot. Personally I like to play support characters making other PCs shine, so my play style tends to lean that way.

Questions from a purely optimization standpoint:

#1 I'd really like to go moon Druid for the lol wild shapes, but I'm afraid of stepping on the melee's toes and not being able to cast spells when needed. Would land be the better choice in this party?

#2 feats. I'm currently thinking of going with warcaster (lvl 0), sentinel (4), stat boost wis (8), resilitent con (12h.

Another option I'm thinking of is taking magic initiate (wizard) for find familiar (scouting, RP, free advantage for flanking and ranged heals), message and mold earth. I would take it at level 1 and just push the progression previously listed back.

What do you guys think?


1) If you want to play a healer role, Moon Druid isn't the best of choices. Until the epic tiers you won't be able to keep anyone upright without dropping your Wildshape, so it harmful. Plus, your battlefield control will be WAY more useful in this party verses the potential of a Moon Druids wildshape. That being said, there is a lot of silliness that can be had with a Paladin who has Mounted Combatant, riding your character, and you have Sentinel.

2) If you are going Moon Druid your top feats will likely be Warcaster, Resilient Con and Mobile. As a Land Druid you would be looking at Warcaster, Spell Sniper, Resilient Con or the like instead. For either one Lucky is always amazing as well.


All this aside, if you want to play a Moon Druid, then play a Moon Druid. I'm playing one right now as the parties primary healer (also with the Healer feat) and really enjoy it. I haven't had to drop out of Wild Shape for healing yet, but we are only level 4. I make sure all people have goodberries at the beginning of the day and enjoy being a Dinosaur

[Joe the Rat]

Don't forget, Land Druids also wildshape. They're just not as combat ready. And that's okay. You'll use it more for utility (climbing, scouting, escaping, etc.) than fighting.

Most Land options give you more control effects, and you get a minor spell recharge as well.

But I will also point out that the Bard is capable of being a healer as well, and the Paladin comes with a built-in first aid kit he can't use for anything besides healing.

So go with whichever appeals more.

On feats - MI:Wizard for the familiar (Or Ritual Caster: Wizard if you don't want the cantrips) is worth it. My party's cleric has gotten a lot of mileage out of his.

[Arkhios]

Even as a Moon Druid you can wild shape only twice per rest. At 10th level once per rest if you use the elemental wild shape. While in theory you can remain in the form for really long time, sometimes it's not so good idea to do so.

Fortunately the Moon Druid is a full caster as well, so even though you wouldn't be able to chill around as a beast all the time you wouldn't be useless (unless you chose to gimp your spellcasting in lieu for the wild shapes).

[Honest Tiefling]

Even as a Moon Druid you can wild shape only twice per rest. At 10th level once per rest if you use the elemental wild shape. While in theory you can remain in the form for really long time, sometimes it's not so good idea to do so.

Ask your DM about what forms would be acceptable in civilization. A parrot, a wolf (diguised or passed off as a dog, there is a history of breeding dogs to look like wolves), or even a weasel (again, passed off as a ferret) can sometimes make for appropriate pets, and if you set out a simple method of communication beforehand, still contribute in social situations. You have THREE charisma casters and your charisma is 8, so it might be best to avoid talking directly to people even if no one took diplomacy. Let the Barbarian twins handle Intimidation, chances are, one of them probably took it.

As for Magic initiate, you have some time. I'd pick the spells based on the feel of the campaign and what spells you need to acquire. Message can either be useful in a campaign...Or the DM doesn't put in many circumstances where it would be helpful. I'd also definitely move it to 4th level, as you'd have some time as a Land Druid to know if you need more cantrips or not.

Land Druids aren't bad, and the extra cantrip you get and the bonus spells can make you more flexible. Adding another meleer to a melee heavy party can't hurt, but getting range and control in that party might make you shine. Think of how hilarious it will be to cast a spell to leave your enemies helpless as the Barbarian Duo rips them apart. If that doesn't appeal to you at all, go Moon.

[Specter]

1) Land for sure. Even if you do go Moon, your party will be relying on you for spells most of the time. Plus, Natural Recovery.
2) Your main concern all over your career will be keeping concentration on spells. So either Warcaster or Resilient will do fine. I'd recommend WC because your CON is already even.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Go Moon Druid.

You can help the party heal between wildshapes. You can help the other melee characters block the ranged characters and the bard.

For Feats, I'd ignore Warcaster for a long time: Chances are, if you're in melee, you're in wildshape! Chances are that if you're not in wildshape, you're trying to stay out of range of damage. That lets you load up on Feats.

Sentinel at 0 or 4 really helps the other melee characters. (Do you take it at 0, so that it's available when bring your wildshape to, um, bear on the enemy at level 2?)

Resilient Con at level 0 would also be good, if your stat line gave you an odd Con after VHuman. Otherwise, it's a lot less worthwhile.

Instead, things like Mobile and Alert and maybe the non-Cha healing feat provide full benefits.

Anyway,

Ken

[Citan]

Hey friends,

Super excited to be starting a new campaign with some acquaintances, and I have decided to roll a Druid. However, I'm stumped regarding how to plan my character.
Rolled pretty good stats Str 8 Dex 14 con 16 wis 18 int 10 cha 8
After Vhuman boost.

The party is a big one - 2 barbarians, a paladin, a bard, a warlock, an archer rogue and archer ranger. Notably I'm the only divine caster. I'm probably going to be called on as heal bot, BC control and utility a lot. Personally I like to play support characters making other PCs shine, so my play style tends to lean that way.

Questions from a purely optimization standpoint:

#1 I'd really like to go moon Druid for the lol wild shapes, but I'm afraid of stepping on the melee's toes and not being able to cast spells when needed. Would land be the better choice in this party?

#2 feats. I'm currently thinking of going with warcaster (lvl 0), sentinel (4), stat boost wis (8), resilitent con (12h.

Another option I'm thinking of is taking magic initiate (wizard) for find familiar (scouting, RP, free advantage for flanking and ranged heals), message and mold earth. I would take it at level 1 and just push the progression previously listed back.

What do you guys think?
1. Yes, Land Druid would definitely "be better", between extra spells and slot recovery, for a party that already has so many melee people.

It does not mean though that going Moon Druid would harm the party in any way. Druid is a very powerful core class anyways, and nobody would force you to always take a big beast form to go into melee.

So if you want to go Wild with higher Shapes, go for it, no regret, no worries, you will still be a very great asset to the party. :)

2. I'm really not sure about Sentinel, unless you go Moon Druid. Warcaster is definitely one you want at level 0 if you go into melee as a Moon Druid, and it's still plenty useful on a Land Druid in general (mainly because at low level, it gives a much better benefit than Resilient). Now if you plan on going Land Druid and usually stay far in the back (so only few hits), you may grab another feat you like and wait to directly grab Resilient: CON a bit later.
As for Magic Initiate... If you want it for the cantrips, go for it. If you want it for Find Familiar, pick Ritual Caster Wizard instead (yeah, strangely, you can pick Wizard list with low INT as long as you have enough WIS).

More generally for a Land Druid, good feats are: Warcaster, Resilient: Constitution, Medium Armor Master (double check that it works with non-metal armor I'm not sure and AFB), Defensive Duelist, and all utility (Ritual Caster, Healer, etc).

For a Moon Druid, Warcaster and Resilient: Constitution, Mobile, possibly Mage Slayer or Sentinel.

Have fun ;)

[djreynolds]

IMO, moon druid has a "greater" potential, but who is actually ever going to see 20 levels

Land druid has some very good domain spells, but at times these can be situational

Both have the druid spell list which frankly, is awesome.

Resilient con is huge

War caster is huge

Mobile has its uses

Mage slayer is very good, as you already have intelligence and wisdom proficiency

Lucky is also helpful

For me, moon druid has the "oh sh@t" button.... you are bonus action away from being able to turn the tide in combat

Cast call lightning or moonbeam and then transform into whatever, resilient con and war caster are IMO primary feats

[Avonar]

The thing about the Moon Druid is that it's probably the best tank class there is, you get a ton of bonus health for free. However in terms of damage dealing potential it tends to be lower, lower attack bonuses can get noticable.

With 2 Barbarians and a Paladin your party is already fairly tanked out. Nothing to stop you going Moon but it's not the most "required", for lack of a better word.

[Snowbluff]

Well, kind of a protip for Moon Druid: Ghostwise Halfling for telepathy or a Kenku for Voice Mimicry, so you can speak while shaped.

You can concentrate on a spells while wildshaped. A good strategy is to drop a flaming sphere or moonbeam, then going into wildshape as your first turn.

[Arkhios]

Well, kind of a protip for Moon Druid: Ghostwise Halfling for telepathy or a Kenku for Voice Mimicry, so you can speak while shaped.

You can concentrate on a spells while wildshaped. A good strategy is to drop a flaming sphere or moonbeam, then going into wildshape as your first turn.

I'm thinking that the voice of mimicry is related to kenku's physiology - which is replaced by the wild shape. I wouldn't allow kenku druid mimicry-talk while wild-shaped (unless you turned into a raven or a parrot).

Ghostwise telepathy might work, though!

[Citan]

The thing about the Moon Druid is that it's probably the best tank class there is, you get a ton of bonus health for free. However in terms of damage dealing potential it tends to be lower, lower attack bonuses can get noticable.

With 2 Barbarians and a Paladin your party is already fairly tanked out. Nothing to stop you going Moon but it's not the most "required", for lack of a better word.
I'm sorry but I have to debunk this immediately.
NO, Moon Druid is not the best tank. Not until he gets CR 3 creatures at least.

At level 2 and up to level 6, you can Wild Shape as a Bear? Yeah, big deal... With 11 AC, I assure you that those 34 HP will be depleted FAST.
Compare to that the big guy in heavy armor and shield, like Fighter, that boasts 20 AC.

Pick a basic creature like a goblin with +3 to hit. Against Druid, he has 65% chance to hit (probably a bit more if you count the natural 20 = hit mechanic). Against Fighter? 20% chance (again, probably a bit more with crit mechanic).

Let's say you pick a Dire Wolf or Giant Spider, provided you already encountered these: although lesser HP, the 14 AC make them much better, but still not great: same goblin would have >50% chance to hit them.

Things don't change much with level 6's CR 2 creatures, although the Giant Snake at least provides a tanking ability with its constrict feature, and more HP for the same low AC.

Only at CR 3 do you finally get a form with decent HP/AC ratio with Giant Scorpion, and when you get lvl 10 with Elemental Forms now you can speak of tanking.

At low levels, Moon Druid is not "ability to tank", it's "ability to get cushion THP while escaping a heavy threat" or "ability to get great move/stealth to quickly move to a favorable position".
Unless, of course, you spend slots on StoneSkin (which is imo an utter waste of your concentration) or Moon Druid's "slots as HP" feature (imo an utter waste of Druid's slots) or multiclass (in which case even a simple dip in Monk or Mage Armor may be enough depending on how DM rules interaction when Wild Shaping).

[Avonar]

I'm sorry but I have to debunk this immediately.
NO, Moon Druid is not the best tank. Not until he gets CR 3 creatures at least.

At level 2 and up to level 6, you can Wild Shape as a Bear? Yeah, big deal... With 11 AC, I assure you that those 34 HP will be depleted FAST.
Compare to that the big guy in heavy armor and shield, like Fighter, that boasts 20 AC.

Pick a basic creature like a goblin with +3 to hit. Against Druid, he has 65% chance to hit (probably a bit more if you count the natural 20 = hit mechanic). Against Fighter? 20% chance (again, probably a bit more with crit mechanic).

Let's say you pick a Dire Wolf or Giant Spider, provided you already encountered these: although lesser HP, the 14 AC make them much better, but still not great: same goblin would have >50% chance to hit them.

Things don't change much with level 6's CR 2 creatures, although the Giant Snake at least provides a tanking ability with its constrict feature, and more HP for the same low AC.

Only at CR 3 do you finally get a form with decent HP/AC ratio with Giant Scorpion, and when you get lvl 10 with Elemental Forms now you can speak of tanking.

At low levels, Moon Druid is not "ability to tank", it's "ability to get cushion THP while escaping a heavy threat" or "ability to get great move/stealth to quickly move to a favorable position".
Unless, of course, you spend slots on StoneSkin (which is imo an utter waste of your concentration) or Moon Druid's "slots as HP" feature (imo an utter waste of Druid's slots) or multiclass (in which case even a simple dip in Monk or Mage Armor may be enough depending on how DM rules interaction when Wild Shaping).

A few things to justify my statement.

First of all, I personally see "tanking" as being there to soak up the hits. Whether this is through a high AC so that you get hit less or through a bunch of bonus HP so it takes a lot more to damage you severely, they are both ways of taking the hits in place of the party. Not to mention, a large creature can block creatures better than a medium.

A level 2 Druid, using both Wild Shapes in a single fight, can have an extra 74 damage they can take. That's without any healing. And naturally as you get higher CRs this only increases. Giant Constrictor Snake at Level 6 allows you 120 extra HP in Wild Shape. Your Goblin argument misses the key point: the extra health. Sure, there's a higher chance of hitting the Druid but if the goblin rolled average damage for every hit, it would still take 7-8 hits to drop a Dire Wolf or Brown Bear out of Wild Shape. Regardless of AC's and chance to hit, that is significant.

Also, you can't really claim the Giant Scorpion is the turning point with 15AC and 52HP when a Dire Wolf, CR1 so available at level 2, has 14AC and 37HP.

I still maintain that, perhaps alongside Barbarians, Moon Druids are the best at taking hits.

Anyway, my main point was, in a game where you have 3 classes already there for taking hits, adding in a Moon Druid seems overboard.

[Aymon]

Large party, you're expected to heal, take the healer feat, and save all those spells slots for more interesting stuff.

Land druid, tie them down and let your three melee characters go to town.

Warcaster isn't needed, I'd do resilient con, later on, but you shouldn't be the primary target.

[Citan]

A few things to justify my statement.

First of all, I personally see "tanking" as being there to soak up the hits. Whether this is through a high AC so that you get hit less or through a bunch of bonus HP so it takes a lot more to damage you severely, they are both ways of taking the hits in place of the party. Not to mention, a large creature can block creatures better than a medium.

A level 2 Druid, using both Wild Shapes in a single fight, can have an extra 74 damage they can take. That's without any healing. And naturally as you get higher CRs this only increases. Giant Constrictor Snake at Level 6 allows you 120 extra HP in Wild Shape. Your Goblin argument misses the key point: the extra health. Sure, there's a higher chance of hitting the Druid but if the goblin rolled average damage for every hit, it would still take 7-8 hits to drop a Dire Wolf or Brown Bear out of Wild Shape. Regardless of AC's and chance to hit, that is significant.

Also, you can't really claim the Giant Scorpion is the turning point with 15AC and 52HP when a Dire Wolf, CR1 so available at level 2, has 14AC and 37HP.

I still maintain that, perhaps alongside Barbarians, Moon Druids are the best at taking hits.

Anyway, my main point was, in a game where you have 3 classes already there for taking hits, adding in a Moon Druid seems overboard.
I'm sorry but you are wrong on all accounts.

First, I did speak of Dire Wolf and its 14 AC, which didn't change much.
Second, a tank is someone that is supposed to draw enemies attacks, survive their hits, and keep them around.
Moon Druid fills the first point fine, maybe even better than a Barbarian, but that's it.

Because it's so easy to hit, its HP will deplete much faster than a properly built Barbarian, Fighter or Paladin. Please don't be dishonest by focusing on my goblin example. Many more creatures lurk around in the world, that hit much stronger.
Just one Spy, CR 1, can inflict 10 average damage... A group of Wolves, each dealing average 7 with prone rider, could also make quick work of that Moon Druid (especially with that STR save).
Even a basic Bandit Captain can inflict average 17 in a single turn.
Then there is also the caster problem: a simple Inflict Wounds with lucky roll is enough to bring a Brown Bear on its knees (direct experience feedback here).

If you have twice the HP as your ally but those HP deplete twice or thrice as fast, where is the gain?

In addition to that, because it's limited to the capabilities of the beast, he is usually no better than the aforementioned control-wise because he can only Shove with beasts's capabilities, and cannot use any spells, whereas others can get features or spells to keep people occupied and near them. At least Dire Wolf has an auto-prone on his only attack, with a decent DC 13. But it's the only thing it has, and only one attack.
Barb has advantage and probably +5 at least on his check, a Fighter could get Shield Master for added protection and still shove option or Sentinel, a Paladin can Command people to drop or halt, all could go two-weapon fighting for immediate two attacks per turn...

So, if your point is "go draw attacks by Wild Shaping" then yes, you may indeed attract more attacks because you are significantly easier to hit than others.
But you won't prevent enemies to go past you or ignore you if they so wish. And unless you manage to be a big threat, they will.

You probably aren't: you make one attack with average 10 damage. Barb at same level will deal (1d6+3+2)+(1d6+2), average 14, with better chance to hit. Fighter would deal 2*(1d6+3), average 13. Same with Rogue, Monk and Ranger, all fairly above the 10 cap. Paladin would probably use a smite spell, making him a priority target to break concentration 2 times per day.

Your only way to become a truely relevant target would be being concentrating on a spell that really annoys enemies: Fog Cloud maybe, later Heat Metal or maybe Spike Growth / Flaming Sphere, later finally Conjure Animals or Call Lightning.
But then, you'd be asking for an early break of your spell if you offer yourself to hits, because you have no CON proficiency, and only +2 as a Dire Wolf, making a chain of hits more risky than just one big one.
Considering that as a Moon Druid, you don't even have arcane recovery, you usually want your concentration spells to last as much as possible. So you actually DON'T want to draw too much attention.


Meaning that for you to really become the most attractive target, you have to manage to be the only one that can be easily targeted in the first place, working with your friends to that goal.
Meaning that any martial that coordinates with friends can as easily make himself the lone target in the open, but with better control and better AC.
Hence why you cannot say that Druid is a good "tank". Even against a single enemy, others will be as good or better as him (especially once level 5 arrives).

You can say "Moon Druid's WS are a great asset for Druid's self-resilience", and I'll 100% agree with you. But saying to someone "yeah if you want to tank Moon Druid is good" is a dangerously wrong advice, for him and his whole party.

[Avonar]

I'm sorry but you are wrong on all accounts.

As soon as I see this, I'm tuning out. I've given my opinion, I am not here for silly arguments.

[Citan]

As soon as I see this, I'm tuning out. I've given my opinion, I am not here for silly arguments.
Well, I'm sorry you take it like this, but to my defense you didn't even take the time to properly read my previous post so. ;)

[hymer]

Well, I'm sorry you take it like this, but to my defense you didn't even take the time to properly read my previous post so. ;)

I don't really follow your argument. I agree on where you arrive: Moon druids cannot consistently be the dedicated frontliner from 1 to 20. But some of your individual arguments I can't really comprehend.

What's with this 'You're wrong about what a tank is'? It's hardly a clearly defined term for D&D, and the exact definition can be expected to vary from table to table without being just 'wrong'. Then you say it's about 1: attracting attention, and 2: keeping the enemy near you. Isn't that the same thing, generally? At least, if you have their attention, and they don't attack you, their attention doesn't really mean much in practical terms, does it?

A lucky Inflict Wounds will take the bear's hp away? I'm guessing a crit or an upcast spell? Regardless, that would do something nasty to anyone. The bear has 34 hp, so if there's 30-40 necrotic damage incoming, everyone but the raging bear totem barbarian is either down or severely wounded at level 4 and below (and even the barbarian lost nearly half his max hp). But the moon druid's own hp have barely been touched, and s/he's just a swift action away from a fresh bag of hp. S/he stood up to that as well as the barbarian, using short rest resources only, where the barbarian is burning a long rest rage to stay up.
The fighter can recover 1d10+change, and the paladin can lay on hands (albeit costing an action and likewise dipping into long rest resources, where the fighter and druid replenish with short rest). So those classes can recover too, but the comparison isn't too grand for them.

You didn't address that the moon druid's bonus hp are just that. Losing them means nothing, unless you uncautiously spend resources to heal them back. You can lose all 60-70 of them, and still stand with your own hp.
Yes, the AC of the beasts is poor. Let's say a difference between 19 for most frontliners with defence in mind, and 11 for the brown bear. And let's just leave out any ways to improve on that. Most enemies around level 4 will have a to-hit bonus between +3 and +6. Your argument holds up best against those with low to-hits and high damage per hit (for spill-over to the druid's hp pool), so let's examine that: A hobgoblin dealing 1d8+1 plus 2d6 for Martial Advantage, for an average of 12.5 on a hit and 24 on a crit.
That's 8.7 damage on average against AC 11, and 3.7 against AC 19. It takes just over 7.8 attacks for the hobgoblin to get through the 68 hp of two brown bears. At that point, it will have dealt just under 28.7 hp damage against AC 19. If we assume d10 hp and +3 con, that's a guy standing at 40 max hp, now down to 11. The druid is standing with a max hp of 35 (assuming the same con), and let's say has taken 9 damage - half 8.7 is the likely damage to get through the bag of hp, and it's happened twice.
After this, the druid is standing there at 26 hp (and now with an AC of 14 to 17), and the other guy at 11 - hardly outpaced beyond recovery. And this is a case very much in favour of the other guy's ability to soak up the attacks, with nothing done for the moon druid to up the AC of the bear.

And none of this touches on forms that can grapple foes on hitting, or fill up a 10' hallway that the other guys can't block alone, or the movement advantages for getting into the right spot, and so on. In other words, a lot depends on the exact situation beyond to-hit and damage.

All that doesn't mean that the moon druid is an excellent tank all the time. But it is at least comparable at level 4 - even in an adverse example - to other classes trying to survive while being attacked. At level 2 it reigns supreme in terms of survivability. At level 7-8 it sucks compared to the best defensive frontliners and should use minions to do the tanking. At level 10, we're back to a rough parity in the 'standing in front of attacks' department.
The key to effectively utilizing that bag of hp is to minimize the spending of resources on healing it (unless you're also doing something to mitigate the AC problem).

Just how well the moon druid's wild shape saves the druid's bacon is very much dependent on the druid's level. And knowing when it works and when it fails is very important if you intend to try. And saying

I'm sorry but you are wrong on all accounts.
can really make you seem arrogant, even though I'm guessing you didn't intend to. I hope you take my disagreements above in the spirit intended.


That doesn't work, Kenku racial stuff like that goes away in a Wildshape form.

Same reason my Wood Elf loses Darkvision in so many forms.
Darkvision is specifically spelled out as being lost in wild shape. For the rest, this goes:

You retain the benefit of any features from your [...] race [...] and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.
In other words, ask your DM. One developer has stated that he'd let the dragonborn's breath be used in wild shape if the shape has a mouth. Just think about a squirrel making that 15' cone of hurt, and how extrem an interpretation of 'physically capable' this is. It seems likely he'd also let a kenku make it's mimic sounds based on that sort of physical capability. I wouldn't. So, ask your DM.

[Sexyshoeless]

Thank you so much everyone for your advice folks! And sorry things got snippy near the end :/
I really got the message that I wouldn't go wrong with either circle, and would still able to help my party out :3


We just hit level 2 and I ended up picking Moon Druid for 2 reasons: 1) We are gonna be in Chult (homebrew modified version of ToA apparently) so DINOSAUR WILD SHAAAAPPPES and 2) for the oh **** button so I can act as a second line of beef for the squishies in our party. Our warlock is veeerrrryyy squishy.

I ended up taking Magic initiate for my level 0 feat for a couple of reasons: After talking with my DM, he said he would have the familiar act on my initiative, making it MUCH easier to pull of touch spells through him, as well as using Owl's flyby to grant free help actions to our melee fighters. I wanted ritual caster but in the jungle we have no guarantee of scrolls or the gold to spend to get inks to scribe into the book, so I shied away. Plus I suspect the warlock is gonna go pact of tome, so rituals be covered. Also taking the cantrips shape water and message I think will add a ton of utlity to the team.

I intend to take Warcaster, Sentinel, a stat boost (WIS), and Resilient (Con) for my feats in that order, taking the excellent advice from everyone here.

And thus Harvey Inkheart is planned out :3 Thank you all!

[Citan]

I don't really follow your argument. I agree on where you arrive: Moon druids cannot consistently be the dedicated frontliner from 1 to 20. But some of your individual arguments I can't really comprehend.

What's with this 'You're wrong about what a tank is'? It's hardly a clearly defined term for D&D, and the exact definition can be expected to vary from table to table without being just 'wrong'. Then you say it's about 1: attracting attention, and 2: keeping the enemy near you. Isn't that the same thing, generally? At least, if you have their attention, and they don't attack you, their attention doesn't really mean much in practical terms, does it?

A lucky Inflict Wounds will take the bear's hp away? I'm guessing a crit or an upcast spell? Regardless, that would do something nasty to anyone. The bear has 34 hp, so if there's 30-40 necrotic damage incoming, everyone but the raging bear totem barbarian is either down or severely wounded at level 4 and below (and even the barbarian lost nearly half his max hp). But the moon druid's own hp have barely been touched, and s/he's just a swift action away from a fresh bag of hp. S/he stood up to that as well as the barbarian, using short rest resources only, where the barbarian is burning a long rest rage to stay up.
The fighter can recover 1d10+change, and the paladin can lay on hands (albeit costing an action and likewise dipping into long rest resources, where the fighter and druid replenish with short rest). So those classes can recover too, but the comparison isn't too grand for them.

You didn't address that the moon druid's bonus hp are just that. Losing them means nothing, unless you uncautiously spend resources to heal them back. You can lose all 60-70 of them, and still stand with your own hp.
Yes, the AC of the beasts is poor. Let's say a difference between 19 for most frontliners with defence in mind, and 11 for the brown bear. And let's just leave out any ways to improve on that. Most enemies around level 4 will have a to-hit bonus between +3 and +6. Your argument holds up best against those with low to-hits and high damage per hit (for spill-over to the druid's hp pool), so let's examine that: A hobgoblin dealing 1d8+1 plus 2d6 for Martial Advantage, for an average of 12.5 on a hit and 24 on a crit.
That's 8.7 damage on average against AC 11, and 3.7 against AC 19. It takes just over 7.8 attacks for the hobgoblin to get through the 68 hp of two brown bears. At that point, it will have dealt just under 28.7 hp damage against AC 19. If we assume d10 hp and +3 con, that's a guy standing at 40 max hp, now down to 11. The druid is standing with a max hp of 35 (assuming the same con), and let's say has taken 9 damage - half 8.7 is the likely damage to get through the bag of hp, and it's happened twice.
After this, the druid is standing there at 26 hp (and now with an AC of 14 to 17), and the other guy at 11 - hardly outpaced beyond recovery. And this is a case very much in favour of the other guy's ability to soak up the attacks, with nothing done for the moon druid to up the AC of the bear.

And none of this touches on forms that can grapple foes on hitting, or fill up a 10' hallway that the other guys can't block alone, or the movement advantages for getting into the right spot, and so on. In other words, a lot depends on the exact situation beyond to-hit and damage.

All that doesn't mean that the moon druid is an excellent tank all the time. But it is at least comparable at level 4 - even in an adverse example - to other classes trying to survive while being attacked. At level 2 it reigns supreme in terms of survivability. At level 7-8 it sucks compared to the best defensive frontliners and should use minions to do the tanking. At level 10, we're back to a rough parity in the 'standing in front of attacks' department.
The key to effectively utilizing that bag of hp is to minimize the spending of resources on healing it (unless you're also doing something to mitigate the AC problem).

Just how well the moon druid's wild shape saves the druid's bacon is very much dependent on the druid's level. And knowing when it works and when it fails is very important if you intend to try. And saying

can really make you seem arrogant, even though I'm guessing you didn't intend to. I hope you take my disagreements above in the spirit intended.


Darkvision is specifically spelled out as being lost in wild shape. For the rest, this goes:

In other words, ask your DM. One developer has stated that he'd let the dragonborn's breath be used in wild shape if the shape has a mouth. Just think about a squirrel making that 15' cone of hurt, and how extrem an interpretation of 'physically capable' this is. It seems likely he'd also let a kenku make it's mimic sounds based on that sort of physical capability. I wouldn't. So, ask your DM.
Hey, thanks for the detailed and constructive argument.
Agree that I was a bit aggressive for nothing in my previous post, I tend to have that bad habit of lashing out without realizing it when I'm exhausted, my bad.

You make a very good case on Druid's sustainable HP, and I don't have anything to oppose to that really, although...
- I don't understand how a level 4 Druid could have both 16 CON and AC 17 when in human form considering he is limited to light armor or non-metal medium armor, so 15 should be his normal AC with medium armor, or it means he has 20 DEX which seems dubious to me.
- I'd argue that defense-geared martials would have either 21 AC (heavy armor, shield, Defense style) or resistance (Barbarian), which both make a big difference, as well as other defensive features.
Anwyays...
Of CR 1 creatures, only the Dire Wolf has anything more than just one single attack, that can help keep enemies around (prone effect).
Meanwhile, Barbarian can Shove with advantage (high chance of success) and still get his attack (then Extra Attack), Eldricht Knight gets extra defense (Shield), Battlemaster gets extra offense (Trip Attack), Paladin gets disabling spells (Branding Smite, Wrathful Smite), Open Hand Monk gets free rider attempt on Flurry of Blows, etc... Not accounting for feats.

So you don't have any good reason as an enemy to focus on the Druid if there are other targets that have around the same AC (so similarly easy or easier to hit) and proved more dangerous (Sharpshooter archers, spellcasters). And the Moon Druid has only one way to keep an enemy: succeeding on his attacks and having the enemy fail the saving throw.

So to make himself more of a threat, Moon Druid would need to concentrate on a spell that changes the balance. But then he will quickly lose concentration because of too low a bonus.

Hence the Moon Druid conundrum if he wants to act as a tank.
Of course there are many ways to resolve this, but all require either early feat (Variant Human) or multiclassing.
That's why you can see so many threads about Moon Druid builds that take a dip or multiclass into Monk (better AC, mobility, control) or Barbarian (better Shove, better resilience) or Rogue (beter mobility, better Shove), sometimes even Paladin (better damage).


Thank you so much everyone for your advice folks! And sorry things got snippy near the end :/
I really got the message that I wouldn't go wrong with either circle, and would still able to help my party out :3

We just hit level 2 and I ended up picking Moon Druid for 2 reasons: 1) We are gonna be in Chult (homebrew modified version of ToA apparently) so DINOSAUR WILD SHAAAAPPPES and 2) for the oh **** button so I can act as a second line of beef for the squishies in our party. Our warlock is veeerrrryyy squishy.

I intend to take Warcaster, Sentinel, a stat boost (WIS), and Resilient (Con) for my feats in that order, taking the excellent advice from everyone here.

And thus Harvey Inkheart is planned out :3 Thank you all!
Don't apologize, you are in no way responsible for other people (*kof*me*kof*) bad humors. ;)

And I admit having access to dinosaurs froms does tip the balance towards enhanced Wild Shape, from the little I recall it's better than other forms of CR1.
Plus you'll nicely shore up the concentration and aggro problems with those feats so everything should be covered nicely.

Have fun!

[Spacehamster]

Go 1 life cleric 19 moon Druid, burn a couple spell slots per day to make über life berries for the party and then enjoy being a bear while still having not provided great healing. :)

[Jerrykhor]

I am currently playing a Moon Druid at level 3. I can't believe Citan is looking at the Brown Bear like some trash.... I am loving it! Think about it, you get multi-attack at level 2, while a fighter only gets it at level 5. You have extra hp that you don't care about losing, speed of a monk/barb, with climb speed as well, 19 Strength for that long jump, Keen Smell, and you still have spells!

In terms of tanking though, Brown Bear is not even the best - Giant Hyena is. Did you want even more HP, more AC and more speed? Here is your beast.

[nickl_2000]

Actually getting a Moon Druid with a 18 AC is pretty easy at level 1 given you choose the GP roll and get a decent roll there.

Variant Human
8 Str
14 Dex
15+1 Con
10 Int
15+1 Wis
8 Cha

Spiked Armor from SCAG: 14 base AC (in the barb section, it says the spikes are "usually" made of metal. Easy to change it to be made of bone then)
Dex 14: +2
Bone or Wooden Shield: +2

Level 1 AC: 18 with disadvantage on stealth. But you are a Druid, if you want to be sneaky, turn into a cat form.

Then you Warcaster for you first level feat for awesomeness with cantrips and concentration and you have yourself a wonderful build starting at level 1

Since you have only put 14 into Dex you can have a good Con and Wisdom still as well.

[hymer]

- I don't understand how a level 4 Druid could have both 16 CON and AC 17 when in human form considering he is limited to light armor or non-metal medium armor, so 15 should be his normal AC with medium armor, or it means he has 20 DEX which seems dubious to me.

I'm glad you're feeling better, Citan. I'm a little late to this particular party, but I should clear up what I was thinking: Studded leather + shield is AC 14. If Con is 16, odds are dex won't be greater than that. So I wrote 14-17. Seventeen could be gotten with point buy by taking 15/15/15/8/8/8 and standard human. The three sixteens would expectedly go in Wis, Con and Dex. But other options exist as has been pointed out.


- I'd argue that defense-geared martials would have either 21 AC (heavy armor, shield, Defense style) or resistance (Barbarian), which both make a big difference, as well as other defensive features.

We could add in more defensive features, certainly. But on both sides. You have to start somewhere. At any rate, plate mail is technically possible at level 4, but I've never seen it in 5e. It seems to me that around level 4-5 is when the fighter and paladin are trying to decide whether to invest in splint, or wait and save the money for plate.
And if they do get plate, what did the druid get?


Of CR 1 creatures, only the Dire Wolf has anything more than just one single attack, that can help keep enemies around (prone effect).
The brown bear gets two attacks with +5 to hit and 2d6+4 and 1d8+4 damage. That form is liable to do twice the damage of a shield-using barbarian with at-will attacks, even if the barbarian is raging. That's hardly something you should just ignore.


Meanwhile, Barbarian can Shove with advantage (high chance of success) and still get his attack (then Extra Attack)

(Extra Attack? If you want to look at level 5, how about level 2?) How does the barbarian Shove and attack at level 4, not accounting for feats? Frenzy comes with a bunch of its own problems, and can't be generally expected to happen. If it does, those Shoves get Disadvantage the second time around, for one thing.


Eldricht Knight gets extra defense (Shield), Battlemaster gets extra offense (Trip Attack), Paladin gets disabling spells (Branding Smite, Wrathful Smite), Open Hand Monk gets free rider attempt on Flurry of Blows, etc... Not accounting for feats.

Druids get Moonbeam, Spike Growth, Entangle, or Barkskin, etc... Not accounting for feats.


So you don't have any good reason as an enemy to focus on the Druid if there are other targets that have around the same AC (so similarly easy or easier to hit) and proved more dangerous (Sharpshooter archers, spellcasters). And the Moon Druid has only one way to keep an enemy: succeeding on his attacks and having the enemy fail the saving throw.

Or killing them. I'm far from certain that a Sharpshooter archer deals much more damage on average than a brown bear at level 4. Even if that is th case, these clever monsters will realize that the extra damage still needs to be sufficiently greater that it makes sense to provoke an OA.


So to make himself more of a threat, Moon Druid would need to concentrate on a spell that changes the balance. But then he will quickly lose concentration because of too low a bonus.
As you can see, I don't grant your premise. Even without using spell slots or Concentration, the fourth level moon druid is an offensive and defensive powerhouse. As for losing Concentration, sure that's a potential problem. But less so than it was at level 3, when we had a feat less. At fourth level a druid could have both Warcaster and Resilient. That's 4% chance for the bear to miss a DC 10 Concentration save. Even with only one of those feats, losing your concentration is hardly a given. And you're certainly not wasting feats, even knowing that you won't be tanking like this in three levels.
Even in a no feats game, it's 30% chance to fail that DC 10 Concentration save. Hardly a given. But a good reason to target the bear instead of the sharpshooter in the back, no?

Come to think of it, in general it seems to me your monsters are behaving in a very definite and particular way, which happens to improve your argument. At my table, monsters behave in very different ways depending on their intelligence and background. Simply being a loud and large bear would often be enough to keep the enemy's attention. Or if you're fighting experienced or well trained foes, knocking one guy on his butt would certainly not be enough to focus attacks on you if there's an uncovered spellcaster bursting away in the back.