Dark Sun UA early next year?

[jaappleton]

Earlier today, Mearls sat down and did an interview with youtube channel Nerdarchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld6bS3ptYws

At one point, around the 20 minute mark, Mearls mentions he's been writing up a ton of Dark Sun stuff and wouldn't be surprised if some of it went into an Unearthed Arcana early* next year.

*I'm assuming that means by March or so.

[DracoKnight]

I was literally just typing up a post about this, but then my phone died >_>

EDIT: to the UA: bring it on!

[Garfunion]

I am both happy and sad. Happy they're thinking about dark sun and actually want to start play testing it. Sad because it would probably be 2019 before we see any official book for the setting.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I am both happy and sad. Happy they're thinking about dark sun and actually want to start play testing it. Sad because it would probably be 2019 before we see any official book for the setting.

I wouldn't even get my hopes up that much - remember, Eberron had (one of?) the first UAs, and we still haven't seen any "real" Eberron progress (I'm not really counting the mystic or artificer classes, as they could be setting neutral).

[jaappleton]

I wouldn't even get my hopes up that much - remember, Eberron had (one of?) the first UAs, and we still haven't seen any "real" Eberron progress (I'm not really counting the mystic or artificer classes, as they could be setting neutral).

There was also a tidbit about that Eberron UA article:

That was designed before 5E was actually released.

[Garfunion]

Well D&D 5ed is almost perfect for Dark Sun because of the way the edition was designed. (No magic items needed)

While Eberron for the most part is still low magic, it is widely available for much of the populace.
They would need to create additional systems in order to balance magic items more. An Artificer isn't an Artificer if they can't make a reasonable amount of magic items in a reasonable amount of time.

[Regitnui]

I wouldn't even get my hopes up that much - remember, Eberron had (one of?) the first UAs, and we still haven't seen any "real" Eberron progress (I'm not really counting the mystic or artificer classes, as they could be setting neutral).

I know, and it's one of by frustrations with every book that all we get is "hey, you could run this in Eberron". Just give me my official changelings and warforged already!


Well D&D 5ed is almost perfect for Dark Sun because of the way the edition was designed. (No magic items needed)

While Eberron for the most part is still low magic, it is widely available for much of the populace.
They would need to create additional systems in order to balance magic items more. An Artificer isn't an Artificer if they can't make a reasonable amount of magic items in a reasonable amount of time.

Eberron is wide magic. Anything up to an Uncommon item can be bought fairly easily. Driftglobes are streetlights in the bigger towns and cities. Wands are almost as plentiful as crossbows. Not everyone can cast spells, but the presence of the Dragonmarked houses means everyone has access to magic for a price.

As for the artificer, I've argued this elsewhere. The imbue items feature is making magic items. They're just making them one-use and temporary. If they want to make a permanent magic item, they need to put more effort into it, represented by the other magic item feature. Ideally with a workbench and schema.

Artificers have often been described as magic engineers. They don't use arcane or divine magic, they just get to the basic level of magic and put it into an item. That's why they make Imbued items and repair things easily, but can't put together an apparatus of Kwalish while adventuring. After all, you wouldn't expect an engineer to put together a car while living on the street taking jobs for money, would you?

[Arkhios]

Earlier today, Mearls sat down and did an interview with youtube channel Nerdarchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld6bS3ptYws

At one point, around the 20 minute mark, Mearls mentions he's been writing up a ton of Dark Sun stuff and wouldn't be surprised if some of it went into an Unearthed Arcana early* next year.

*I'm assuming that means by March or so.

Cool beans!

Also, I see what you did there. Made my day xD

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I would love to see more Dark Sun. It's one of the more interesting settings. Really, there's a bunch of settings that need attention besides Fae Run. At least we got a taste of Ravenloft, but even that's not enough.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well D&D 5ed is almost perfect for Dark Sun because of the way the edition was designed. (No magic items needed)

On the other hand, pretty much every PC in 5e has access to magic (literally every class either gets spells or a subclass that gives them access to spells), which is very not Dark Sun. Dark Sun isn't low magic as much as it is narrow magic, the magic is concentrated primarily in the Sorcerer Kings and their Templars but they have very impressive stuff (especially for a setting where iron swords are priceless heirlooms). Therefore the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard classes as written can't really be used, and the Sorcerer doesn't really fit with the 'classic' Dark Sun flavour. You'll want to replace the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster with psionic versions as well, as well as adding a psionic Barbarian subclass.

[DarkKnightJin]

I know, and it's one of by frustrations with every book that all we get is "hey, you could run this in Eberron". Just give me my official changelings and warforged already!



Eberron is wide magic. Anything up to an Uncommon item can be bought fairly easily. Driftglobes are streetlights in the bigger towns and cities. Wands are almost as plentiful as crossbows. Not everyone can cast spells, but the presence of the Dragonmarked houses means everyone has access to magic for a price.

As for the artificer, I've argued this elsewhere. The imbue items feature is making magic items. They're just making them one-use and temporary. If they want to make a permanent magic item, they need to put more effort into it, represented by the other magic item feature. Ideally with a workbench and schema.

Artificers have often been described as magic engineers. They don't use arcane or divine magic, they just get to the basic level of magic and put it into an item. That's why they make Imbued items and repair things easily, but can't put together an apparatus of Kwalish while adventuring. After all, you wouldn't expect an engineer to put together a car while living on the street taking jobs for money, would you?

Artificers work under the MCU Dr. Strange rules of magic? As in, it's not so much 'magic' as it is 'code to shape reality'. When they imbue an item with magic, they're creating a 1-off program to tweak reality in a way they want it to be tweaked.

I can get behind that explanation.

[Arkhios]

I'm sorry for the following rant, but I found the "need" for digital books amusing.

Physical books are much more interesting than digital ones, in my honest opinion. There's that little something – a feeling I can't quite describe – when I can actually hold the rulebook in my hands, and can search through it to find whatever I need to find, and then read it right there. Plus, having the actual book doesn't require electricity to be accessible! Of course, you need a light source, but candles are inexpensive if you can't afford to pay your bills! :smallbiggrin:

Plus, personally, I'm not ashamed of my hobby, so why shouldn't I be able to have the physical copies of my books for visitors to ogle in a bookshelf at my home.
...I know, I know, multiple books, each weighing around 1 kilo or more, can be quite a burden to carry around, especially if you don't have a car (or a driver's license for that matter) but think of it as small acts of everyday life that are meant as exercise* (it's good for your health, trust me!). Get over it. If you like the game like I do, you should be willing to make small sacrifices (such as carrying a few books every now and then if neccessary). Buy a better bag if need be. It's not that hard.
(*For example, a beneficial form of everyday exercise is walking up stairs instead of taking the elevator.)

That said, I do understand why people would want digital copies of the books they need to play. Still, I know a lot of people who, like myself, prefer physical copies over digital files.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't even get my hopes up that much - remember, Eberron had (one of?) the first UAs, and we still haven't seen any "real" Eberron progress (I'm not really counting the mystic or artificer classes, as they could be setting neutral).

Also, while I liked 4e Dark Sun well enough, a lot of people didn't care so much for it. Even the ones that loved 4e itself were turned off from Dark Sun after they bought it.

Chances that they actually put out something great for Dark Sun is pretty slim.

They don't have a great track record for good settings in 5e to begin with. A lot of mediocrity floating around when it comes to their adventures. More and more adventure league games turn into home games it seems like or the DM completely deviates from the source material but still marks people down as had played the material (I tried AL again and they are running Dark Sun funny enough).

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm sorry for the following rant, but I found the "need" for digital books amusing.

Physical books are much more interesting than digital ones, in my honest opinion. There's that little something – a feeling I can't quite describe – when I can actually hold the rulebook in my hands, and can search through it to find whatever I need to find, and then read it right there. Plus, having the actual book doesn't require electricity to be accessible! Of course, you need a light source, but candles are inexpensive if you can't afford to pay your bills! :smallbiggrin:

Plus, personally, I'm not ashamed of my hobby, so why shouldn't I be able to have the physical copies of my books for visitors to ogle in a bookshelf at my home.
...I know, I know, multiple books, each weighing around 1 kilo or more, can be quite a burden to carry around, especially if you don't have a car (or a driver's license for that matter) but think of it as small acts of everyday life that are meant as exercise* (it's good for your health, trust me!). Get over it. If you like the game like I do, you should be willing to make small sacrifices (such as carrying a few books every now and then if neccessary). Buy a better bag if need be. It's not that hard.
(*For example, a beneficial form of everyday exercise is walking up stairs instead of taking the elevator.)

That said, I do understand why people would want digital copies of the books they need to play. Still, I know a lot of people who, like myself, prefer physical copies over digital files.

Okay, here's the thing: many people who want digital books also like physical copies. I certainly do, I dislike running games from a screen to the point I've got folders stuffed with printed pdfs in storage, but I find digital books so much more convenient when prepping, and for those books I'll need occasionally.

If I'm running a game I'll generally need the following with me:
-Rulebook
-Setting book
-Adventure notes (if written down)
-NPC sheets
-Monster stats
-Spare character sheets
-Potentially the players' character sheets (some people don't like keeping hold of them)
-Dice
-Possibly munchies
-Stationary
-Pad of paper

If I'm walking that comes out to two bags without all the potentials. I can do it, I'll often not bring munchies and have a large enough bag for a rulebook and a folder, but I've pushed close to the limit several times. I can easily see why for games using a lot of material (such as the official books, UA, and DMsGuild products) a usb stick and laptop would be preferred, especially if they also have to carry minis.

[Regitnui]

Artificers work under the MCU Dr. Strange rules of magic? As in, it's not so much 'magic' as it is 'code to shape reality'. When they imbue an item with magic, they're creating a 1-off program to tweak reality in a way they want it to be tweaked.

I can get behind that explanation.

Well, yeah. Think of it like the difference between a mobile phone (Cleric), a web designer (wizard), and a coder (artificer). Cleric gets it done for them via the right actions (praying/apps), the wizard makes it happen (spell components/design programme), and the artificer builds it from raw components (coding language/imbue spells)

[Pichu]

I would be really excited for a Dark Sun UA! Right now, my local game shop is running a homebrewed version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4jZ_-uYQxf8XzFpX2x6VVlicEk/view) of Dark Sun for 5e by redditor gzw1010. We're having a blast and I hope some official stuff comes out soon.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I'm sorry for the following rant, but I found the "need" for digital books amusing.

Physical books are much more interesting than digital ones, in my honest opinion. There's that little something – a feeling I can't quite describe – when I can actually hold the rulebook in my hands, and can search through it to find whatever I need to find, and then read it right there. Plus, having the actual book doesn't require electricity to be accessible! Of course, you need a light source, but candles are inexpensive if you can't afford to pay your bills! :smallbiggrin:

You are way too "New School" for my taste. I find the "need" for buying physical books already printed amusing.

A real hard core book collector borrows the books from a friend and then copies it by candlelight onto vellum using a quill made from an eagle feather and India Ink. Any illustrations should be lovingly copied and colored by hand. After every page is transcribed, the whole thing should be bound into a goatskin cover using animal ligaments sew the pages. At least 4 different species of animal should go into every book (Vegans beware).



Plus, personally, I'm not ashamed of my hobby, so why shouldn't I be able to have the physical copies of my books for visitors to ogle in a bookshelf at my home.
...I know, I know, multiple books, each weighing around 1 kilo or more, can be quite a burden to carry around, especially if you don't have a car (or a driver's license for that matter) but think of it as small acts of everyday life that are meant as exercise* (it's good for your health, trust me!). Get over it. If you like the game like I do, you should be willing to make small sacrifices (such as carrying a few books every now and then if neccessary). Buy a better bag if need be. It's not that hard.
(*For example, a beneficial form of everyday exercise is walking up stairs instead of taking the elevator.)

People ogling over your skinny rulebooks? I highly doubt it. Visitors to my house ask "Is that a Gutenberg Bible?" I reply "Nope, that's my copy of the PHB. And don't bring up the Gutenberg Bible in this house. Gutenberg was a slacker took the jobs of countless honest scribes!"

And quit whining about your 1 kilo books. You obviously need to make it to the gym a little more often. Each of my books weights 15-20 kilos. To get my books somewhere else, I don't need a bag, I have to rent a moving truck.

People like you are are obviously not committed to the game as much as me since you are not willing to spend 6 - 12 months copying, illustrating, and binding your own books by hand.

[Deleted]

Well, yeah. Think of it like the difference between a mobile phone (Cleric), a web designer (wizard), and a coder (artificer). Cleric gets it done for them via the right actions (praying/apps), the wizard makes it happen (spell components/design programme), and the artificer builds it from raw components (coding language/imbue spells)

Fluff wise, sure, but mechanically the wizard and cleric is no different from each other.

So it's more the difference between an IT Representative and a IT Tech. They both do the exact same job, depending on the company, but they have different titles and may do slightly different things.

Or the difference between a project manager and a project lead.

[Waterdeep Merch]

You are way too "New School" for my taste. I find the "need" for buying physical books already printed amusing.

A real hard core book collector borrows the books from a friend and then copies it by candlelight onto vellum using a quill made from an eagle feather and India Ink. Any illustrations should be lovingly copied and colored by hand. After every page is transcribed, the whole thing should be bound into a goatskin cover using animal ligaments sew the pages. At least 4 different species of animal should go into every book (Vegans beware).
I just can't get behind this Anno Domini-style of thinking. If you're serious about liking something, you should break it down into verses and then memorize them well enough to repeat them.

Take one standard action each turn to do
With it what you will. Attack, spellcast, other,
As known from your unique class, race, or item.
Refer to book 2, verse 7, line two eight.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I just can't get behind this Anno Domini-style of thinking. If you're serious about liking something, you should break it down into verses and then memorize them well enough to repeat them.

Take one standard action each turn to do
With it what you will. Attack, spellcast, other,
As known from your unique class, race, or item.
Refer to book 2, verse 7, line two eight.

Well, I once tried using a "Delphic Oracle" style of DMing. When a rules came question came up, I would have a virgin inhale lots of oleander smoke. She would then produce her ruling in dactylic hexameter which I would repeat and interpret to the players. Unfortunately, this added so much time that all my players quit.

Also, it is really hard to find a virgin who is willing to breathe in oleander for several hours at a time.

[jaappleton]

Well, I once tried using a "Delphic Oracle" style of DMing. When a rules came question came up, I would have a virgin inhale lots of oleander smoke. She would then produce her ruling in dactylic hexameter which I would repeat and interpret to the players. Unfortunately, this added so much time that all my players quit.

Also, it is really hard to find a virgin who is willing to breathe in oleander for several hours at a time.

I have no idea what's happening anymore.

[DracoKnight]

I have no idea what's happening anymore.

That moment when your thread has completely run away from you. It's kinda like any thread that mentions Pact of the Blade warlocks.

[GandalfTheWhite]

It's kinda like any thread that mentions Pact of the Blade warlocks.

Pact of the Blade is pure f*cking garbage. Anyone who chooses it must be unaware of the dumpster fire it is. I've never seen such a terrible trap option, not even back in 3.5, or even in 4E after Essentials turned everything else into a trap option. Now here's how we fix it: We give it attacks to scale like Eldritch Blast, and we give it medium and heavy armor proficiency. Also Shields. So yeah, just give them the fighter's attack progression and armor proficiencies. OH, and they should totally get CON save proficiency for free, because spellcasting in melee is so much riskier than casting at range. OH, and they should get armor of agathys as an at will spell, cast as if out of a 9th-level spell slot.

[jaappleton]

Pact of the Blade is pure f*cking garbage. Anyone who chooses it must be unaware of the dumpster fire it is. I've never seen such a terrible trap option, not even back in 3.5, or even in 4E after Essentials turned everything else into a trap option. Now here's how we fix it: We give it attacks to scale like Eldritch Blast, and we give it medium and heavy armor proficiency. Also Shields. So yeah, just give them the fighter's attack progression and armor proficiencies. OH, and they should totally get CON save proficiency for free, because spellcasting in melee is so much riskier than casting at range. OH, and they should get armor of agathys as an at will spell, cast as if out of a 9th-level spell slot.

Still doesn't fix it. :smalltongue:

[DracoKnight]

Still doesn't fix it. :smalltongue:

Nah, of course not. This is just to bring it to be equal to a blasting warlock. NOW we need to make it BETTER, because being in melee is so much riskier. :smallwink:

[GandalfTheWhite]

Still doesn't fix it. :smalltongue:


Nah, of course not. This is just to bring it to be equal to a blasting warlock. NOW we need to make it BETTER, because being in melee is so much riskier. :smallwink:

I'm glad we understand each other. :smallbiggrin:

ANYONE ELSE WHO DISAGREES IS PROMOTING BADWRONGFUN!!!

[napoleon_in_rag]

To comment on the original post, Dark Sun was my favorite 2E Campaign Setting and I am excited to see a 5e version of it.

[War_lord]

I'm sorry for the following rant, but I found the "need" for digital books amusing.

Physical books are much more interesting than digital ones, in my honest opinion. There's that little something – a feeling I can't quite describe – when I can actually hold the rulebook in my hands, and can search through it to find whatever I need to find, and then read it right there.

That's fine when you're sitting down with the PHB in your own time while generating a PC, not so good when you're a harried DM looking for one specific rule buried in the back of the DMG. We can search digital books with keywords and get an answer in seconds, you can't do that with what's basically a high school textbook.


Plus, personally, I'm not ashamed of my hobby, so why shouldn't I be able to have the physical copies of my books for visitors to ogle in a bookshelf at my home.

No one cares that you play D&D, it's 2017, it's not all that quirky now.


...I know, I know, multiple books, each weighing around 1 kilo or more, can be quite a burden to carry around, especially if you don't have a car (or a driver's license for that matter) but think of it as small acts of everyday life that are meant as exercise* (it's good for your health, trust me!). Get over it. If you like the game like I do, you should be willing to make small sacrifices (such as carrying a few books every now and then if neccessary). Buy a better bag if need be. It's not that hard.

I don't know about anyone else, but I advocate for digital books because they're practical. Aside from the weight, which is a serious concern for people with physical problems. Physical books can be permanently ruined by water damage, friends with sweaty hands, errant junkfood, curious pets, the weather and impact damage among other things. Do all your gaming through the internet? Digital is often better, because you're probably using something like roll20 that plugs your digital book into your digital tabletop. There's a place for physical books, but for "work" digital is better


That said, I do understand why people would want digital copies of the books they need to play. Still, I know a lot of people who, like myself, prefer physical copies over digital files.

I'm skeptical of your understanding when you just labelled anyone using a digital book as an unfit sloth who doesn't like D&D enough and is ashamed of their hobby.

[Regitnui]

Fluff wise, sure, but mechanically the wizard and cleric is no different from each other.

Except we were talking fluff, so extending the analogy is like a wizard casting water breathing on a triton.

[SaurOps]

Well, I once tried using a "Delphic Oracle" style of DMing. When a rules came question came up, I would have a virgin inhale lots of oleander smoke. She would then produce her ruling in dactylic hexameter which I would repeat and interpret to the players. Unfortunately, this added so much time that all my players quit.

Also, it is really hard to find a virgin who is willing to breathe in oleander for several hours at a time.

Oleander? Everyone knows that you have to get your Pythia high on ethylene gas derived from purely geological sources. Accept no substitutes.

[Deleted]

Except we were talking fluff, so extending the analogy is like a wizard casting water breathing on a triton.

Though u guess the biggest issue is that the fluff isn't backed up by anything.

I can fluff a goblin as a halfling, still makes it a goblin due to not having halfling abilities.

[SaurOps]

Though u guess the biggest issue is that the fluff isn't backed up by anything.

I can fluff a goblin as a halfling, still makes it a goblin due to not having halfling abilities.

That is an essential flaw in reskinning. You have to make sure that the skin actually fits the structure underneath, otherwise you get a misshapen lump that's even creepier than the normal result of taxidermy.

[Deleted]

That is an essential flaw in reskinning. You have to make sure that the skin actually fits the structure underneath, otherwise you get a misshapen lump that's even creepier than the normal result of taxidermy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/badtaxidermy/

[Outliar]

A real hard core book collector borrows the books from a friend and then copies it by candlelight onto vellum using a quill made from an eagle feather and India Ink. Any illustrations should be lovingly copied and colored by hand. After every page is transcribed, the whole thing should be bound into a goatskin cover using animal ligaments sew the pages. At least 4 different species of animal should go into every book (Vegans beware).



Well, I once tried using a "Delphic Oracle" style of DMing. When a rules came question came up, I would have a virgin inhale lots of oleander smoke. She would then produce her ruling in dactylic hexameter which I would repeat and interpret to the players. Unfortunately, this added so much time that all my players quit.

Also, it is really hard to find a virgin who is willing to breathe in oleander for several hours at a time.


Oleander? Everyone knows that you have to get your Pythia high on ethylene gas derived from purely geological sources. Accept no substitutes.


That is an essential flaw in reskinning. You have to make sure that the skin actually fits the structure underneath, otherwise you get a misshapen lump that's even creepier than the normal result of taxidermy.

What even is this thread?

[KorvinStarmast]

I have no idea what's happening anymore. That would make you a Kender. :smallbiggrin:
That's fine when you're sitting down with the PHB in your own time while generating a PC, not so good when you're a harried DM looking for one specific rule buried in the back of the DMG.
I learned to never look up a rule during play. Make a ruling and play on. Look ups are for after the session. Cuts down on the harriedness of the DM. That's what I found.
I'm skeptical of your understanding when you just labelled anyone using a digital book as an unfit sloth who doesn't like D&D enough and is ashamed of their hobby. No, he didn't.

What even is this thread?Pure gold :smallbiggrin:

[Eric Diaz]

On the other hand, pretty much every PC in 5e has access to magic (literally every class either gets spells or a subclass that gives them access to spells), which is very not Dark Sun. Dark Sun isn't low magic as much as it is narrow magic, the magic is concentrated primarily in the Sorcerer Kings and their Templars but they have very impressive stuff (especially for a setting where iron swords are priceless heirlooms). Therefore the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard classes as written can't really be used, and the Sorcerer doesn't really fit with the 'classic' Dark Sun flavour. You'll want to replace the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster with psionic versions as well, as well as adding a psionic Barbarian subclass.

On the OTHER other hand*, pretty much every PC in Dark Sun has psionics... And, if you follow the MM example, psionics ARE spells.

But TBH I mostly agree with you, and I am always ready to ditch the sorcerer in any case!

Vengeance paladins would make kickass templars, though!

* I'm thinking "thri-kreen" here, they have enough hands.

[ZorroGames]

Earlier today, Mearls sat down and did an interview with youtube channel Nerdarchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld6bS3ptYws

At one point, around the 20 minute mark, Mearls mentions he's been writing up a ton of Dark Sun stuff and wouldn't be surprised if some of it went into an Unearthed Arcana early* next year.

*I'm assuming that means by March or so.

TBH and not just iconoclastic, I will say I can live forever without Ebberron AND/OR Dark Sun. The default setting is... okay... but those two? Shudder. Nope.

Or gunpowder, in my games, Real Life I want my gunpowder. You want a gun, go Witch World or Hand Crossbow.

But from OD&D thru AD&D it was homebrew with modules adapted to such.

Nowdays, decades later, I want the deault because I am too fixed (lazy? Maybe) in being a player and not a DM/GM ever again.

[Regitnui]

Though u guess the biggest issue is that the fluff isn't backed up by anything.

I can fluff a goblin as a halfling, still makes it a goblin due to not having halfling abilities.

Dude, we were talking about the fluff beyond the mechanics. The fluff the mechanics hope to convey. The fluff that stands above the mechanics. On that level, if you saw them in a book or other non-interactive medium, the difference would be Pray for Effect (Buy a Toy Cleric), Make Effect (Build from Lego Wizard), Make Items have the Effect (Build Toy from Raw Materials Artificer).

Yes, mechanics in 5e make the Cleric and Wizard very similar. However, you're not going to show a wizard crossing themselves while the holy hand grenade drops onto the enemy from a sunbeam. You're also not going to show the cleric covering their hands in guano and flicking it at enemies while commanding it to burn. Similarly, an artificer in the core fluff, in an Eberron movie or book, is going to slap their hands against an object and tell it to be magical, and it will be for a limited time. They can't do what the wizard or cleric can, just as the wizard and cleric can't do what the other can. They all have different ways of doing essentially similar things. But the fluff is what makes them different. Fluff Rules Crunch.

[Anonymouswizard]

I learned to never look up a rule during play. Make a ruling and play on. Look ups are for after the session. Cuts down on the harriedness of the DM. That's what I found.

If you're not going to use the rules why even buy the rulebook?


On the OTHER other hand*, pretty much every PC in Dark Sun has psionics... And, if you follow the MM example, psionics ARE spells.

But TBH I mostly agree with you, and I am always ready to ditch the sorcerer in any case!

Vengeance paladins would make kickass templars, though!

* I'm thinking "thri-kreen" here, they have enough hands.

Yeah, although I was assuming Warlocks as Templars. Just made more sense to me.


Or gunpowder, in my games, Real Life I want my gunpowder. You want a gun, go Witch World or Hand Crossbow.

Eh, my games and worlds tend to include technological progress. Players can assume that if nobody is using matchlock muskets there's someone out there trying to make a functional one. Early firearms really aren't suitable as PC weapons anyway.

EDIT: it's fantasy, lets be creative! Lizardmen and four legged bug people!

[War_lord]

D&D has a late Medieval tech level, they had Matchlock muskets at that point. It's not going to break anything, muskets aren't very practical unless you're handing them out to 100 hired peasants.

[ZorroGames]

D&D has a late Medieval tech level, they had Matchlock muskets at that point. It's not going to break anything, muskets aren't very practical unless you're handing them out to 100 hired peasants.

Agreed but it becomes a disconnect for me.

[War_lord]

Agreed but it becomes a disconnect for me.

But why does it become a disconnect? There's nothing "modern" about gunpowder, it was current in Europe at the same time as Plate Mail for example.

[Deleted]

EDIT: it's fantasy, lets be creative! Lizardmen and four legged bug people!

People are typically very restrictive when it comes to fantasy, it is quite hilarious when you think about it.


Agreed but it becomes a disconnect for me.

Which is hilarious.

Because...


But why does it become a disconnect? There's nothing "modern" about gunpowder, it was current in Europe at the same time as Plate Mail for example.

[ZorroGames]

But why does it become a disconnect? There's nothing "modern" about gunpowder, it was current in Europe at the same time as Plate Mail for example.

Does it matter why? It just does.

[ZorroGames]

[snip inapplicable response]


Which is hilarious.

Okay, but it really does bother me for some odd reason. YMMV but I don’t laugh at your foibles.

[Arkhios]

People are typically very restrictive when it comes to fantasy, it is quite hilarious when you think about it.

Agreed, it's hilarious. But we all have our own preferences when it comes to fantasy, and one should respect that.

[War_lord]

Does it matter why? It just does.

Because this is a discussion forum and while I know there's people with this mindset, I'm curious about the why.

[Regitnui]

D&D has a late Medieval tech level, they had Matchlock muskets at that point. It's not going to break anything, muskets aren't very practical unless you're handing them out to 100 hired peasants.

Despite many opinions, if we ran the history of humanity again from scratch, it's unlikely we would develop gunpowder again. Unlike swords and armour, bows and shields, which were discovered and developed by many cultures throughout history, gunpowder was discovered once. It spread from China, to Europe, and then outward. You didn't have any other civilisation at the time or any other time discover gunpowder without encountering it.

Look at the history, and it's extremely plausible that fantasy cultures or even alternate realities never developed gunpowder and therefore fireworks, guns and all related tech. That would make them "primitive" by our military standards, but they could easily have developed other devices; computers are actually more possible than guns; the Greeks developed the Antikythera Mechanism, and then Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace developed the Babbage Engine independently of the other. So an alternate Earth may have computers, electricity and be otherwise modern, but not have gunpowder weaponry and therefore likely be more peaceful.

Personally, that's why I don't allow guns when I run Eberron. It's entirely plausible to me that, with driftglobes being streetlamps and cloaks of the manta being SCUBA gear, that wands and enchanted crossbows would cover for guns.

[Deleted]

Agreed, it's hilarious. But we all have our own preferences when it comes to fantasy, and one should respect that.

No I don't. Not when people try to push that restrictive perspective of fantasy onto others.

I'm downright sick of it. I've seen too many people, even at AL and other official events, get pushed around for not being "the right type of fantasy".

So no, I won't respect people who want a very narrow mindset of fantasy for other people's characters. You can make your character the way you want but leave other people the hell alone.

If I want a swashbuckling musket wielding rogue, that's my choice and I don't care if it breaks your (generally speaking) ideology of "fantasy".

[jaappleton]

No I don't. Not when people try to push that restrictive perspective of fantasy onto others.

I'm downright sick of it. I've seen too many people, even at AL and other official events, get pushed around for not being "the right type of fantasy".

So no, I won't respect people who want a very narrow mindset of fantasy for other people's characters. You can make your character the way you want but leave other people the hell alone.

If I want a swashbuckling musket wielding rogue, that's my choice and I don't care if it breaks your (generally speaking) ideology of "fantasy".

Stop it, Deleted.

We’re beginning to agree on things and I don’t like it.

[War_lord]

Despite many opinions, if we ran the history of humanity again from scratch, it's unlikely we would develop gunpowder again. Unlike swords and armour, bows and shields, which were discovered and developed by many cultures throughout history, gunpowder was discovered once. It spread from China, to Europe, and then outward. You didn't have any other civilisation at the time or any other time discover gunpowder without encountering it.

Gunpowder is a chemical substance, Alchemists are a thing in D&D. Black powder is a mix of substances that had other uses in Medieval times. If I said I didn't have Swords in my setting because there's no guarantee swords would be invented, you'd think me daft.


Personally, that's why I don't allow guns when I run Eberron. It's entirely plausible to me that, with driftglobes being streetlamps and cloaks of the manta being SCUBA gear, that wands and enchanted crossbows would cover for guns.

Magic items don't replace mechanical technology. The Crossbow replaced the bow because you can train any idiot to use a crossbow, the crossbow was replaced by the musket because the musket was more powerful and any idiot could make one, which any idiot could then be trained to use. If you make that crossbow magic, it becomes even more complex, even more expensive and even more fragile.

That aside, you haven't really answered the question of why you object, handwaving isn't really explaining the actual problem you have with gunpowder.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Dark Sun would be fairly interesting if they hadn't insisted on inserting psionics into every single orifice they could find on it.

It's even worse that they took a "punitive" approach to all the other power sources: divine magic is non-existent, arcane magic has terrible side effects, martial characters get crappy weapons/armor that are prone to breaking... but psionics? No problem, they work just fine, why wouldn't they? Thanks for asking. Game balance, what's that?

So... yeah, play a psionic character in Dark Sun and watch everyone suffer for choosing basically anything else. No thanks.

Terrible game design. Won't touch it with a ten-foot Rod of Cancellation.

[Deleted]

Stop it, Deleted.

We’re beginning to agree on things and I don’t like it.

:smallwink:


Gunpowder is a chemical substance, Alchemists are a thing in D&D. Black powder is a mix of substances that had other uses in Medieval times. If I said I didn't have Swords in my setting because there's no guarantee swords would be invented, you'd think me daft.



Magic items don't replace mechanical technology. The Crossbow replaced the bow because you can train any idiot to use a crossbow, the crossbow was replaced by the musket because the musket was more powerful and any idiot could make one, which any idiot could then be trained to use. If you make that crossbow magic, it becomes even more complex, even more expensive and even more fragile.

That aside, you haven't really answered the question of why you object, handwaving isn't really explaining the actual problem you have with gunpowder.

I think guns didn't really replace bows/crossbows until the 1700s. Even in the 1800s guns sucked for the most part and handguns could burn your hands (which didn't help anything).

Hollywood has done a fantastic job with straight up lying about the Wild West and basically all of history.

[Nifft]

Is this the right thread for advice on my Oleander-forged Oracle Pact Blade-lock?

[Deleted]

?

So... yeah, play a psionic character in Dark Sun and watch everyone suffer for choosing basically anything else. No thanks.

You could always play a Warforged Monk?

:p

[morgante]

Yes, I will throw another $50 at the Hasbro Corp. to have this ultra-slim quality hardcover book. Why state it thusly? For all the research monkeys they're paying to read the interwebs as market research! Will I use it in my campaign? Irrelevant!




Earlier today, Mearls sat down and did an interview with youtube channel Nerdarchy.

At one point, around the 20 minute mark, Mearls mentions he's been writing up a ton of Dark Sun stuff and wouldn't be surprised if some of it went into an Unearthed Arcana early* next year.

*I'm assuming that means by March or so.

[Regitnui]

Gunpowder is a chemical substance, Alchemists are a thing in D&D. Black powder is a mix of substances that had other uses in Medieval times. If I said I didn't have Swords in my setting because there's no guarantee swords would be invented, you'd think me daft.

You do, actually. A particular style of sword may not be invented, but the sword has been invented many times over in different guises throughout human history. There's a very good chance than any random reality would have swords. However, blackpowder was invented only once. It's very possible that they never stumbled onto it (gunpowder was an accident in the quest for the philosopher's stone in China), or that like Hero of Alexandria and his steam engine, they discovered it and dismissed it as useless. And when you have people who can throw fireballs and make arrows that can pierce metal reliably, why even pursue a dangerous, volatile powder than just blows up? After all, give the same ingredients to a wizard and you've got a far more reliable fireball.



Magic items don't replace mechanical technology. The Crossbow replaced the bow because you can train any idiot to use a crossbow, the crossbow was replaced by the musket because the musket was more powerful and any idiot could make one, which any idiot could then be trained to use. If you make that crossbow magic, it becomes even more complex, even more expensive and even more fragile.

But that's it. In Eberron, magic does fill the role of technology. Like I said; driftglobes are street lamps, cloaks of the manta are SCUBA gear, and the Lightning Rail is a train network. They never developed along the same lines we did, so why should they have guns, which as I've said, are based on what was initially an accident in our timeline?

Who said a +1 crossbow wouldn't be more durable than a normal crossbow? More expensive, yes, but magic doesn't need physical parts, so it's not any more complex. So, to be fair, you only have one real objection to +1 crossbows. And that's really immaterial if someone's mass-producing them, which in Eberron, there is; House Cannith is a manufacturing megacorporation for whom magic weapons of all sorts is a major revenue stream.



That aside, you haven't really answered the question of why you object, handwaving isn't really explaining the actual problem you have with gunpowder.

I did explain. In detail. I object because there's no reason that guns should exist in Eberron. They're an accident, there was a different evolution of technology in that world in line with repeatable and reliable magic, and crossbows and wands are more reliable and, frankly, better.

In a homebrew setting, that's your prerogative. But there's no interplanar NRA advocating that guns should be in all forms of media in all timelines; In Eberron, guns don't exist and have no reason to exist. They are, in that world, useless. At best, they're a curiosity in a Cannith museum the same way Hero of Alexandria's steam engine was in Ancient Greece. They wouldn't even be considered as weapons.

[Arkhios]

No I don't. Not when people try to push that restrictive perspective of fantasy onto others.

I'm downright sick of it. I've seen too many people, even at AL and other official events, get pushed around for not being "the right type of fantasy".

So no, I won't respect people who want a very narrow mindset of fantasy for other people's characters. You can make your character the way you want but leave other people the hell alone.

If I want a swashbuckling musket wielding rogue, that's my choice and I don't care if it breaks your (generally speaking) ideology of "fantasy".

To respect is not to agree or to like it.
I suppose things are different beyond the atlantic ocean where everything is bigger and "made great again", including gaming circles. But in here, the circles are much smaller and so it's a realistic and unfortunate possibility that if you refuse to make exceptions with your personal beliefs you're almost certainly going to be without a willing DM or a group altogether to play with. And then what? Roll20 or whatever it's called may be an option, but there's 7 or more hours between our time zones and when you would have perfect time to host a game at maybe 6 p.m. the others might be asleep by then.

It really doesn't help that much to play online because schedules are still a very real problem as explained above.

I agree it's annoying as hell to play with a DM who holds ridiculously restricted opinions about their own special snowflake of a setting, but when it's either that game or no games anywhere, it's easier to accept it, respect others, and find something else enjoyable within context.

If it isn't clear by now, I have a DM like that. Now, I could (and I do) DM myself as well, but I also want to be a player every once in a while.

[Dappershire]

A real hard core book collector borrows the books from a friend and then copies it by candlelight onto vellum using a quill made from an eagle feather and India Ink. Any illustrations should be lovingly copied and colored by hand. After every page is transcribed, the whole thing should be bound into a goatskin cover using animal ligaments sew the pages. At least 4 different species of animal should go into every book (Vegans beware).


I totally agree. Thanks, by the way, for letting me browse your tomes for a couple hours. I used me Ipod7 to scan the pages, compiled it into a high res digital file, uploaded it to the cloud, and reDLed it as one large kindle book on my ipad. Now we both can play with quality manuals!

[napoleon_in_rag]

Oleander? Everyone knows that you have to get your Pythia high on ethylene gas derived from purely geological sources. Accept no substitutes.

Oh, you must wipe your butt with silk.

Most of us can't afford to research a geological formation capable of producing enough ethylene to cause hallucinations THEN buy the property on top of it and build a house with a secret chamber underneath with pipes going into the rock to collect the gas THEN have your Pythia sit in the chamber for hours at time.

No, no Ethylene gas for working class priests of Apollo like myself. That's for my betters. I will have to continue to poison my Virgins using Oleander.

[Theodoxus]

Dark Sun would be fairly interesting if they hadn't insisted on inserting psionics into every single orifice they could find on it.

It's even worse that they took a "punitive" approach to all the other power sources: divine magic is non-existent, arcane magic has terrible side effects, martial characters get crappy weapons/armor that are prone to breaking... but psionics? No problem, they work just fine, why wouldn't they? Thanks for asking. Game balance, what's that?

So... yeah, play a psionic character in Dark Sun and watch everyone suffer for choosing basically anything else. No thanks.

Terrible game design. Won't touch it with a ten-foot Rod of Cancellation.

It's kinda like playing some versions of Star Wars games and not being a Jedi...

[Tetrasodium]

Gunpowder is a chemical substance, Alchemists are a thing in D&D. Black powder is a mix of substances that had other uses in Medieval times. If I said I didn't have Swords in my setting because there's no guarantee swords would be invented, you'd think me daft.



Magic items don't replace mechanical technology. The Crossbow replaced the bow because you can train any idiot to use a crossbow, the crossbow was replaced by the musket because the musket was more powerful and any idiot could make one, which any idiot could then be trained to use. If you make that crossbow magic, it becomes even more complex, even more expensive and even more fragile.

That aside, you haven't really answered the question of why you object, handwaving isn't really explaining the actual problem you have with gunpowder.
not in every setting that is the problem with applying forgotten realms/greyhawk style generic fantasy to every setting. In darksun resources are hard to come by, metal is scarce, & metalurgy sucks. I'm not familiar enough with it to say for certain, but I don't believe guns fit in athlas. In eberron, they don't have "alchemists", they have bleeping "artificers" who treat magic like a science & act as magical hackers along with House Cannith who make well... most everything. the idea of guns is ridiculous as anything more than a curiosity in eberron because it's had 5e style recharging wands since 3.5! You might as well be suggesting the US military invest in Arquebus & blunderbuss technology because it's bigger, heavier, less reliable, & fits your idea of a good warfare weapon more than a howitzer or patriot missile launcher. The very idea that someone would use a gunpowder gun over a wand is so absurd in that setting that it is actually problematic & damaging to the setting itself if allowed.

[Arkhios]

If people have invented mundane Fireworks, someone is bound to be crazy enough to experiment with sulfur more than that. Either due to curiosity or because they're jaded towards spellcasters who are able to produce big 'splosions with spells but they are not.

Curious minds never rest, and in my personal opinion there's nothing wrong about guns in Eberron. I'm not saying you should retcon them as having always been there. I'm saying that it could be invented as likely as it could not be.

[Regitnui]

If people have invented mundane Fireworks, someone is bound to be crazy enough to experiment with sulfur more than that. Either due to curiosity or because they're jaded towards spellcasters who are able to produce big 'splosions with spells but they are not.

Curious minds never rest, and in my personal opinion there's nothing wrong about guns in Eberron. I'm not saying you should retcon them as having always been there. I'm saying that it could be invented as likely as it could not be.

Dancing Lights and minor illusion are cantrips. You don't need gunpowder for fireworks either when literally anyone with the slightest bit of training can point their finger into the air and create a spectacular light show. Houses Phiarlan and Thuranni probably have specialized magic items to produce "fireworks". Heck, they'd make better firework shows than any pyrotechnic artist here.

There's nothing wrong with guns in Eberron. I just don't see why they'd ever be considered anything other than dangerous curiosities. Certainly not anything an adventurer would be using. They'd try to sell them like Mal Reynolds with the Lassiter than actually use it.

[Millstone85]

the idea of guns is ridiculous as anything more than a curiosity in eberron because it's had 5e style recharging wands since 3.5! [...] The very idea that someone would use a gunpowder gun over a wand is so absurd in that setting that it is actually problematic & damaging to the setting itself if allowed.
Either due to curiosity or because they're jaded towards spellcasters who are able to produce big 'splosions with spells but they are not.The 5e DMG describes 15 magic wands of which 10 require attunement by a spellcaster (e.g. Wand of Fireballs), 2 just require attunement (e.g. Wand of Enemy Detection) and 3 are ready to use (e.g. Wand of Magic Missiles).

My guess is that a Wand of Magic Missiles can be bought in Khorvaire as easily as one would buy a gun in the USA. Artificers may also have improved the Wand of Fireballs so anyone can attune to it, or it doesn't require attunement at all.

So yeah, I can see someone there inventing a Tube of Non-Magic Missile for fun or for a mission involving an antimagic field, but I can't see a market for it.

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's kinda like playing some versions of Star Wars games and not being a Jedi...

The main difference being almost everyone freely admits the Jedi are overpowered in those games.

In earlier versions of D&D (AD&D, whatever) I kept hearing this blow-back from psionics players how their stuff was totally NOT overpowered or game-breaking in any way. Then Dark Sun came out and handed them a setting where psions were the only characters who weren't hamstrung in some way... and they kept on denying it.

[Anonymouswizard]

The main difference being almost everyone freely admits the Jedi are overpowered in those games.

In earlier versions of D&D (AD&D, whatever) I kept hearing this blow-back from psionics players how their stuff was totally NOT overpowered or game-breaking in any way. Then Dark Sun came out and handed them a setting where psions were the only characters who weren't hamstrung in some way... and they kept on denying it.

A lot of this is game design problems. Dark Sun could have give Mundanes a boost by saying 'bone and wooden weapons use standard stats, metal gets a bonus'. Plus as every PC is psionic in 2e Dark Sun for most PCs it's a bit of 'lose one thing gain something not quite as good'.

Heck, wizards are just as powerful in 2e Dark Sun. It's literally a case of 'do you want to trade your ability to hide spellcasting for power', Preservers are literally standard Mages in all but name.

But yeah, if you got the stats it was always best to go Psionicist because so few things were equipped to compete.

[Regitnui]

So yeah, I can see someone there inventing a Tube of Non-Magic Missile for fun or for a mission involving an antimagic field, but I can't see a market for it.

Crossbows. Even if the magic don't work, there's still a metal bolt sticking into the target. So between the various crossbows (hand, light, heavy, repeating) and the fifteen different kinds of wands that can be attuned by magewrights (craftsmen who know the magecraft spell, gets bonus on craft checks in 3.5), there's hardly any reason for a gun to be a viable weapon instead of a museum piece or a rare Cannith-made collectible.

[Tetrasodium]

Crossbows. Even if the magic don't work, there's still a metal bolt sticking into the target. So between the various crossbows (hand, light, heavy, repeating) and the fifteen different kinds of wands that can be attuned by magewrights (craftsmen who know the magecraft spell, gets bonus on craft checks in 3.5), there's hardly any reason for a gun to be a viable weapon instead of a museum piece or a rare Cannith-made collectible.


Correct. not to mention the fact that an antimagic field is going to be pretty high level (and thus quite rare at best), meanwhile there are dozens of ways to gain protection against nonmagical damage & gobs of creatures that naturally resist, ignore, and/or regenerate from it The idea of developing a blunderbuss or something in order to fall prey to common resistances & ignore a very contrived unlikely scenario is about as likely as the US navy replacing their CIWS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5DU-uoLwj4) with Ultima Ratio Regum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_24_de_Vallière), The crossbow has the added advantage of being fairly simple & using rather stadard parts. Need special punch with it? have Cannith stick a dragonshard splinter on some bolts & enchant them to trigger a spell on impact. My layers see crossbows, they start making perception checks on the bolts after that time with the relevant & its group of inept zombies equipped with bolts of suggestion enchanted with "protect us".


The 5e DMG describes 15 magic wands of which 10 require attunement by a spellcaster (e.g. Wand of Fireballs), 2 just require attunement (e.g. Wand of Enemy Detection) and 3 are ready to use (e.g. Wand of Magic Missiles).

My guess is that a Wand of Magic Missiles can be bought in Khorvaire as easily as one would buy a gun in the USA. Artificers may also have improved the Wand of Fireballs so anyone can attune to it, or it doesn't require attunement at all.

So yeah, I can see someone there inventing a Tube of Non-Magic Missile for fun or for a mission involving an antimagic field, but I can't see a market for it.

probably very available yes. add to that all the not in any book toys a buyer could contract with an artificer on the side to make for them. In one of the eberron novels a character practically has a necklace with a few beads that turn into miniature singularities when thrown & that says nothing about all the other cool toys.

[Deleted]

It's kinda like playing some versions of Star Wars games and not being a Jedi...


You might be surprised to know that people don't always play Jedi in Star Wars TTRPGs...

[Regitnui]

probably very available yes. add to that all the not in any book toys a buyer could contract with an artificer on the side to make for them. In one of the eberron novels a character practically has a necklace with a few beads that turn into miniature singularities when thrown & that says nothing about all the other cool toys.

Personally, I say anything below Uncommon in the DMG is available in Eberron, if not freely available (House Deneith probably wants to keep magical weapons out of most of the populace's hands, and House Thuranni wanting to keep dust of disappearance and decks of illusions in their people's hands). Anything Rare needs to be specifically commissioned (schemas for them are available, but they're not worth mass-producing), and Very Rare and Legendary are one-off or limited edition.

[Theodoxus]

You might be surprised to know that people don't always play Jedi in Star Wars TTRPGs...

Yeah, I was one of them... played a melee wookie in a West End's game in the '90s. That was "fun". I played a laser rifle toting soldier in a SAGA game. That was a little better.

Both games, I was completely outshined by the TK wielding, Mind Tricking, run, jump and gun Jedi.

Which is the point. Yes, you don't have to play Jedi in SW - just like you don't have to play a Psion in DS - but the experience will be less than stellar, and certainly less than it would have been, had you simply drank the kool-aid and played the signature class of both settings.

[Anonymouswizard]

You might be surprised to know that people don't always play Jedi in Star Wars TTRPGs...

Yep, I had a lot of fun with my engineering droid in FFG. I was always looking for stuff to fix, and my programming was glitched so that I always considered myself incomplete.

Sure, the Imperial Spy did a lot more than me in general, but the group never wanted for a hacker or mechanic.

[DracoKnight]

Since Mearles said that he'd updated Dark Sun, he's also started updating Nentir Vale. I'd say that that very squarely points to an Elminster's Guide to the Planes being the book for next year.

[jaappleton]

Since Mearles said that he'd updated Dark Sun, he's also started updating Nentir Vale. I'd say that that very squarely points to an Elminster's Guide to the Planes being the book for next year.

Why are we all convinced its Elminster's Guide and not Mordenkainen's or Halaster's?

[DracoKnight]

Why are we all convinced its Elminster's Guide and not Mordenkainen's or Halaster's?

Because they're insisting on ramming the Forgotten Realms down our throat. I would love for it to be Mordenkainen's Guide. Or Makos' Guide. Hell, it almost makes MORE sense for a Warlock to be the author...cuz y'know, they deal with Extraplanar powers.

[Nifft]

Hell, it almost makes MORE sense for a Warlock to be the author...cuz y'know, they deal with Extraplanar powers.

Emirkol the Chaotic's Guide to the Planes

Yeah, I'd give that a look.

[jaappleton]

Emirkol the Chaotic's Guide to the Planes

Yeah, I'd give that a look.

Cthulu's Guide to fhtagn