Moving Spells to Balance Schools: Evocation and Enchantment

[Nifft]

In an earlier thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538328-Evocation-as-Meta-Spells), there was some productive brain-storming about what spells could be added to Evocation in order to make it a more desirable spell school -- one that is not discarded trivially.

Here's what we came up with.

Evocation

There are three groups of spells that could plausibly be added into Evocation, any of which would make the school much more difficult to ban:

Meta-Spell Enhancers (like contingency, a level 6 Evocation):
- (Lesser/Greater) Spell Matrix (SpC)
- Mystic Surge (PHB2) -- currently Universal
- Spell Enhancer (SpC) -- currently Transmutation
- Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) -- currently Universal

Counter-Spells & Dispelling (the inverse of energy creation is energy destruction):
- Dispel Ward (SpC)
- Arcane Turmoil (C.Mage)
- (Greater) Dispel Magic (SRD)
- Slashing Dispel (PHB2) -- currently dual-school, becomes pure Evocation
- Chain Dispel (PHB2)
- Mord's Disjunction (SRD)
- Reaving Dispel (SpC)

Great Energy Manipulation (like miracle, a level 9 Evocation):
- Prestidigitation
- Limited Wish
- Wish


I could see one or two of the above groups fitting into Evocation, but not all three.

Which one or two are the best fits?

Or is there another group that should be considered?

If we split the (Creation) sub-school across Conjuration & Evocation, then the various Orb spells might find a home in Evocation. The 3.0e versions were Evocation, so there's even a solid precedent. It would be nice if the Orb spells retained their ability to penetrate anti-magic fields -- having that capability in both Conjuration and Evocation would be good.




Enchantment


Enchantment

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.

Charm
A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

Compulsion
A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.


The biggest problem with Enchantment is that it's always [Mind-Affecting].

The simplest proposal might be:



Enchantment

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature. The third allows you to impose your will on reality using powerful words.

Charm
All charm spells are mind-affecting spells. A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

Compulsion
All compulsion spells are mind-affecting spells. A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Power Word
A power word spell imposes an effect on a creature based on its current hit point total. These spells dictate changes in reality itself, and generally do not allow a saving throw.

... and move all the Power Word ____ spells out of (Compulsion) and into the (Power Word) sub-school.

With the large number of Power Word spells added in Races of the Dragon, this simple change might be sufficient to make Enchantments more relevant at high levels.


Thoughts?

[ryu]

I'd pick sets one and three to add to evocation, because they work and dispelling is one of the primary reasons abjuration is strong mid-tier school and might become low tier with a hit that big.

I generally don't see power words as such a big deal at high level. Instead I'd move a few of the undead command and control spells from necromancy into enchantment to cement its place as THE control school, and follow up by making any spell with the purpose of communication go to enchantment. It's now necessary to necromancer well, and a few good utility and even divination effects go in with communication. Would it be great under those conditions? No but it'd be less hot garbage. If not enough add in spell which augment the users mind into enchantment.

[Fizban]

Considering how often Dispel Magic is cited as why Abjuration is non-bannable, I wouldn't be surprised if moving it made Abjuration the new whipping boy. As for power words, that only leaves hp and spell resistance. Spell Resistance the spell is 5th level, and without that characters not optimized to a bajillion hit points will be pretty much boned. Meanwhile monsters still have twice your hit dice and constitution.

Of course you won't find much support from me in general regarding enchantment, as mind control is obviously the most powerful thing there is and I see no problem with a mind-control specialist finding their bonus slots un-usable against certain foes, when they have plenty of non-specialized slots to use.

Incidentally, I can see plenty of argument for making the power words evocation too. Energy=power and it's right in the name. Anyone bring up Spell Engine before? 'Cause that's an "abjuration [force]" that re-configures your spell slots. Mnemonic Enhance and Mage's Lucubration are under Transmutation- if spell slot manipulation isn't energy then it should as least be transmutation. But recovery of a previously cast spell slot is way closer to energy than transformation-if you were transforming the enhancer/lucubrator into another spell, why does it have to be one you've already cast? Because you're not transforming, you're using the energy of this spell to re-charge the other.

[Eldariel]

Evocation could easily get the whole Teleportation subschool and that would make a huge difference (and/or damage spells could just be buffed in relation to the HP creep of 3e). I'd be wary of moving something so game changing otherwise but given Conjuration with Summons alone or BFC alone would be worthwhile, so it's kind of a natural move really.

While at it, healing should go back to Necromancy for things to make any sense whatsoever. And the best way to buff enchantment is to nerf the Protection spell, probably by making mental Protection alignment-dependent. Power Word change is fine too. And obviously, mind-affecting immunity shouldn't come with types like Undead that clearly have minds.

[Luccan]

I don't know if Enchantment needs that much help... I agree with Eladriel, though, that things with an obvious mind (well, most things) should be subject to [mind-affecting]. It's not like Enchantment is called out as effecting brain chemistry or something. I also agree it should be 1 and 3 for Evocation. Keeps Abjuration away from auto-ban status.

I've heard it said that specialist wizards should ban Evocation and whatever other school they don't think they'll need for the campaign. So, in a campaign featuring mindless undead, drop Enchantment. But in a campaign where your enemies are clever and defensive against spellcasters, Divination may not be as useful as it otherwise could be. So I think the one that truly needs fixing is Evocation.

[ryu]

I don't know if Enchantment needs that much help... I agree with Eladriel, though, that things with an obvious mind (well, most things) should be subject to [mind-affecting]. It's not like Enchantment is called out as effecting brain chemistry or something. I also agree it should be 1 and 3 for Evocation. Keeps Abjuration away from auto-ban status.

I've heard it said that specialist wizards should ban Evocation and whatever other school they don't think they'll need for the campaign. So, in a campaign featuring mindless undead, drop Enchantment. But in a campaign where your enemies are clever and defensive against spellcasters, Divination may not be as useful as it otherwise could be. So I think the one that truly needs fixing is Evocation.

First off you can't ban divination. EVER. It's a rule. Second I'd ban enchantment far before I'd ban evocation. I can name upwards of five spells I'd miss in evocation. The same is not true of the entire school that gets no-sold by by level one protection spells in item form.

[Luccan]

First off you can't ban divination. EVER. It's a rule. Second I'd ban enchantment far before I'd ban evocation. I can name upwards of five spells I'd miss in evocation. The same is not true of the entire school that gets no-sold by by level one protection spells in item form.

Yes, an entire world filled with people with protection from (your alignment) on them permanently would make Enchanment an entirely useless school. But I tend to assume most DMs won't do that. Meanwhile, games with high-op PCs will most likely have high-op enemies who can in someway defend against many Divination spells (also, chances are a party will have at least two characters who could theoretically use Divination spells). But those were just examples. I could have given some for any school of magic.

Honestly, I tend to find that advice like that isn't really applicable to most games, but I could also see easily getting by without Evocation in most games. Most of the spells you want don't come on until mid-level anyway.

I'm curious though, what is/are your auto-ban school(s), if any?

[ryu]

Yes, an entire world filled with people with protection from (your alignment) on them permanently would make Enchanment an entirely useless school. But I tend to assume most DMs won't do that. Meanwhile, games with high-op PCs will most likely have high-op enemies who can in someway defend against many Divination spells (also, chances are a party will have at least two characters who could theoretically use Divination spells). But those were just examples. I could have given some for any school of magic.

Honestly, I tend to find that advice like that isn't really applicable to most games, but I could also see easily getting by without Evocation in most games. Most of the spells you want don't come on until mid-level anyway.

I'm curious though, what is/are your auto-ban school(s), if any?

If I am banning schools it usually is enchantment and evocation. Enchantment is worst school and evocation second worst. Why ban schools for a long term plan when elven generalist is right there? Or domain wizard? Or if they're allowed to stack both for obvious objective superiority unless you never plan to leave levels where abrupt jaunt rules the roost.

Further not everyone in the world needs a protection item to render the school useless. Just anyone who actually matters because rendering an entire school of magic irrelevant on top of other benefits is significantly more valuable than any variant of magic item based immunity needs to be to be worth owning.

[Cosi]

Considering how often Dispel Magic is cited as why Abjuration is non-bannable, I wouldn't be surprised if moving it made Abjuration the new whipping boy.

Abjuration is already the school you ban if-and-only-if you have a Cleric in the party, because your party does need the various Abjurations like dispel magic and magic circle, but you don't necessarily need them personally (unlike, say, combat spells in Conjuration, Enchantment, or Illusion).


Enchantment is worst school and evocation second worst.

Enchantment is not the worst school. Enchantment is just the most polarized school. If your Enchantment spells work, it is the best school in the game bar none because it turns enemies into allies. It's not just "save or lose" but "save or I get a permanent minion". It can be countered, but the reality is that most monsters don't have counters, and even getting a relatively small percentage of your enemies as minions is already absurd.

[ryu]

Abjuration is already the school you ban if-and-only-if you have a Cleric in the party, because your party does need the various Abjurations like dispel magic and magic circle, but you don't necessarily need them personally (unlike, say, combat spells in Conjuration, Enchantment, or Illusion).



Enchantment is not the worst school. Enchantment is just the most polarized school. If your Enchantment spells work, it is the best school in the game bar none because it turns enemies into allies. It's not just "save or lose" but "save or I get a permanent minion". It can be countered, but the reality is that most monsters don't have counters, and even getting a relatively small percentage of your enemies as minions is already absurd.

Minion making methods are hardly uncommon, some are even without real limits, Many will on average create stronger minions, and further still I'd rather have my enemies all accounted for to the fullest extent of my abilities rather than leaving near me to become enemies again the instant any smart enemy applies a first level spell intelligently. You want an accurate measure of the good of a school? For each school ask one question. Assuming I rely on the given school as my bread and butter, that I favor the school over others where applicable, how likely am I to die?

[Cosi]

Minion making methods are hardly uncommon, some are even without real limits, Many will on average create stronger minions, and further still I'd rather have my enemies all accounted for to the fullest extent of my abilities rather than leaving near me to become enemies again the instant any smart enemy applies a first level spell intelligently.

If you're losing your minions to protection from evil, you're doing it wrong. You don't cast dominate. You cast charm, which makes your enemies temporarily friendly, then use Diplomacy to make them permanently helpful.

[ryu]

If you're losing your minions to protection from evil, you're doing it wrong. You don't cast dominate. You cast charm, which makes your enemies temporarily friendly, then use Diplomacy to make them permanently helpful.

Which is itself something better done by even mundane diplomancers who don't have to rely on mind effecting spells and whom have less RAW ambiguities that could be ruled against them. If the archetype can be more reliably pulled off by an intelligently built muggle it's not a strong caster type and it doesn't speak well of its school of choice.

[Cosi]

Which is itself something better done by even mundane diplomancers who don't have to rely on mind effecting spells and whom have less RAW ambiguities that could be ruled against them. If the archetype can be more reliably pulled off by an intelligently built muggle it's not a strong caster type and it doesn't speak well of its school of choice.

The thing is, you're not investing a whole lot. You need a +10 bonus to turn what is already a save or lose into a save or ally. That's basically nothing at the level where "what if your enemies all buy permanent protection from evil" is a serious issue.

[InvisibleBison]

While at it, healing should go back to Necromancy for things to make any sense whatsoever.

Healing spells make sense in conjuration because you're bringing forth extraplanar energy.
Healing spells make sense in evocation because they involve manipulating energy.
Healing spells make sense in transmutation because they transform an injured person into a healthy person.
Healing spells make sense in necromancy because you're manipulating someone's life force.

[ryu]

The thing is, you're not investing a whole lot. You need a +10 bonus to turn what is already a save or lose into a save or ally. That's basically nothing at the level where "what if your enemies all buy permanent protection from evil" is a serious issue.

Except it's not save or ally. It's save or die if your prudent or save or temporary ally that may turn again if you're not and working in least favorable interpretation of ambiguities, In slightly better interpretations with your method it's save or lasting ally that will most likely take off if things get too certain doom for them. Even assuming the most favorable interpretation your minions don't have the loyalty to march into certain death on command a proper minion should.

[Cosi]

Healing spells make sense in conjuration because you're bringing forth extraplanar energy.
Healing spells make sense in evocation because they involve manipulating energy.
Healing spells make sense in transmutation because they transform an injured person into a healthy person.
Healing spells make sense in necromancy because you're manipulating someone's life force.

I disagree with the conjuration one -- energy stuff is pretty clearly Evocation. That said, if you said "conjuring new flesh", I'd agree with you there.

Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter because they're Cleric spells so their school is irrelevant 99% of the time, especially because you largely aren't using them offensively.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah...the absolute first thing to do in this sort of discussion is to move all the Orb spells to Evocation and otherwise leave them unchanged.
I'm not comfortable raiding Abjuration much, it has some essentials but is already a school that is largely ignored and would be a top prohibited choice if it weren't for those handful of essential spells.
I think any conjuration (creation) spell that involves "creating" energy could be moved to Evocation. If that's still not enough, Teleport never really made much sense in Conjuration anyway, so it not making sense in Evocation wouldn't hurt anything either, so I agree w/ the poster who suggested that.

I also agree that when it works, Enchantment is really strong. So it doesn't need really strong spells added to it, but it does need a suite of decent NOT mind-affecting options so the entire school isn't made so easily worthless.
[Sidenote: I always thought it was BS that undead, constructs, etc... with intelligence scores and ability to communicate (like liches and vampires) still got the blanket "mindless" tag for being that creature type. The game seems to agree, what with all the necromancy spells that have different effects on one group of undead vs. the other. Why not take that away, or at least just turn it into a +4 save bonus or such instead? Similarly, True Seeing and Mind Blank shutting down entire schools of magic is a problem w/ those 2 spells, not the schools, and they could do w/ a nerfing]
Not sure making Power Word spells non-mind-affecting is the best way to go, though. They already have no save, I'm leery of removing one of their few defenses. (Also, obligatory "Power Word Pain is overpowered and should be banned or harshly nerfed" disclaimer)
It doesn't help Enchantment's problems since they're also mind-affecting, but...always seemed like the (fear) subtype spells in Necromancy could fit in Enchantment.

EDIT: I always found Necromancy made the most sense for healing spells and anything involving life energy. But yeah, doesn't usually matter what school they're in since they're cleric/druid spells.

[eggynack]

Enchantment is not the worst school. Enchantment is just the most polarized school. If your Enchantment spells work, it is the best school in the game bar none because it turns enemies into allies. It's not just "save or lose" but "save or I get a permanent minion". It can be countered, but the reality is that most monsters don't have counters, and even getting a relatively small percentage of your enemies as minions is already absurd.
Enchantment does basically one thing that isn't already done by other schools, and it is this thing. Charm and dominate are the unique utility of the school (along with mind rape at super high levels), such that if you're not banning the school, it's for those spells and no others. They're pretty good spells, but they're not really as good as the unique utility of other schools. If you're doing this in combat, then it is, as was stated, quite risky. You're getting a two for one, but you're upping the variance to do it, simple as that. If you're doing it out of combat, then you're not quite getting a two for one so much as you're just getting minionmancy, and that's replicable by other schools. Is this one effect a good one? Sure, if a bit situationally dependent. Is it better than the unique offerings of evocation? I don't think it is.

[Cosi]

Is it better than the unique offerings of evocation? I don't think it is.

It is if enemies don't reliably have defenses. If enemies do reliably have defenses, you're probably playing at a high enough level of optimization that you can get everything you want from evocation via shadow evocation.

[eggynack]

It is if enemies don't reliably have defenses. If enemies do reliably have defenses, you're probably playing at a high enough level of optimization that you can get everything you want from evocation via shadow evocation.
You can get some of what you want. There's some stuff you need regular evocation to do right though, and getting these things at a higher spell level isn't the best. For example, resilient sphere now picks up an extra save, which means two saves on foe entrapping or one save on personal defense. Or wind wall, which looks like it does blanket nothing. Also wall of force or forcecage. And if you ever actually want to make use of blasting for any reason, those spells don't do too great. You can replicate contingency, which is great if you don't have it in feat form, but it's two spell levels late, which, again, is non-ideal.

As for enemies having defenses, charm doesn't get past protection from X either, at least under what I think is the dominant interpretation of the text. You can pull off the charm+diplomacy thing if protection isn't pre-cast, but ya gotta do it pretty fast if the protection is coming from someone besides the person you're charming. Meanwhile, you're also leaving your combat spell open to type issues and a decent number of creatures with immunity. And, while we could call optimization a factor regarding spell/item based defenses, it's notable that defenses tend to be very low level and held in common across a variety of spell lists, and cheap if you're doing it item style. Optimization is thus the greatest limiting factor, while shadow evocation must contend also with level. If you want to cast evocations before 9th level, you're out of luck.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I have to agree that moving healing to Necromancy and teleportation to Evocation would aid balance significantly. Enchantment getting the Power Word spells wouldn’t be a hige buff but would give them something to do against mindless so whatever.

[Nifft]

I have to agree that moving healing to Necromancy and teleportation to Evocation would aid balance significantly. Enchantment getting the Power Word spells wouldn’t be a hige buff but would give them something to do against mindless so whatever.

You're right that a strong case could be made for moving Healing to Necromancy, but it would not change school balance at all. Clerics don't ban schools.

3.5e Enchantment already has the Power Word spells, so that's not a change at all -- I'm simply removing the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor and (Compulsion) sub-school from those spells, so fewer immunities apply to Power Words.

[ryu]

I also take issue with moving teleporation out of conjuration on the grounds that moving stuff around is pretty much literally the foundation of the entire school's theme. I think groups one and three would do evocation fine without also handing it some of the most important effects in the game.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I also take issue with moving teleporation out of conjuration on the grounds that moving stuff around is pretty much literally the foundation of the entire school's theme.

Teleportation was in Transmutation in D&D 3.0, where it honestly makes the most sense.
The only reason it seems to have even been moved out of it was because Transmutation had "too much stuff"...

[ryu]

Teleportation was in Transmutation in D&D 3.0, where it honestly makes the most sense.
The only reason it seems to have even been moved out of it was because Transmutation had "too much stuff"...

What the hell justification is used to put it in the change stuff school? This isn't changing stuff. It's moving stuff. Flight buffs you can justify as a buff sure. Doubly if it's based on fully transforming into something that flies. Direct movement spell though? No.

[Nifft]

What the hell justification is used to put it in the change stuff school? This isn't changing stuff. It's moving stuff. Flight buffs you can justify as a buff sure. Doubly if it's based on fully transforming into something that flies. Direct movement spell though? No.

In 1e, the teleportation spells were Alteration.


https://i.imgur.com/Tg3AH2d.png

https://i.imgur.com/HFT0umO.png


Alteration mutated into Transmutation.

That's why teleport was in Transmutation in 3e: tradition.

[Endarire]

Evocation has gotten a bad reputation for reasons I've not understood. It's the third school I've opposed with the standard order being Enchantment, Necromancy, then Evocation. I like the contingency spell, [Force] effects, and various flavors of damage. Sometimes, you just want Evocation.

Enchantment, however, is a school I felt potentially quite powerful early on with charm person, but the school is very campaign-dependent. I had a player who loved the notion of being an Enchanter and played one in a campaign I ran before I realized this would be an Undead-heavy campaign and she felt quite discouraged.

[ryu]

Evocation has gotten a bad reputation for reasons I've not understood. It's the third school I've opposed with the standard order being Enchantment, Necromancy, then Evocation. I like the contingency spell, [Force] effects, and various flavors of damage. Sometimes, you just want Evocation.

Enchantment, however, is a school I felt potentially quite powerful early on with charm person, but the school is very campaign-dependent. I had a player who loved the notion of being an Enchanter and played one in a campaign I ran before I realized this would be an Undead-heavy campaign and she felt quite discouraged.

Necromancy is a powerful mid tier school. You've got low level minionmancy fairly well locked down, debuff effects, save or lose, save or die, negative energy, ability to render low level undead encounters irrelevant or even reliably helpful in a single spell, several powerful defensive benefits, and so on. Necromancy has literally dozens of spells I'd miss if I banned it. Significantly more than evocation let alone enchantment.

[Luccan]

Evocation has gotten a bad reputation for reasons I've not understood. It's the third school I've opposed with the standard order being Enchantment, Necromancy, then Evocation. I like the contingency spell, [Force] effects, and various flavors of damage. Sometimes, you just want Evocation.

Enchantment, however, is a school I felt potentially quite powerful early on with charm person, but the school is very campaign-dependent. I had a player who loved the notion of being an Enchanter and played one in a campaign I ran before I realized this would be an Undead-heavy campaign and she felt quite discouraged.

To be fair, the problem is less "Evocation has nothing good" and closer to "Evocation doesn't have enough good". This will of course vary by opinion, but considering different forms of damage is also accomplished by just being diverse with your schools (a little negative energy from Necromancy, a little fire from Conjuration, etc.) and damage being it's shtick means that it basically embraces what's usually the slowest way to end encounters and focusing on damage means it has significantly fewer utility spells. Which means that for many people, it isn't a school you need, usually. Not like you'll need some others. Which is really the worst thing that could've happened to it. If you have to ban a school, you should be giving enough up from any given school that it's a tough choice. That so many can look at Evocation and go "eh" in that situation means it needs an upgrade. Also, mostly because of the Orb spells, Conjuration currently does Evocation's job better than Evocation.

Now, completely personal opinion time, but Contingency is the only Evocation I can think of that I would actually regret having given up. And many games do not or only just get to 6th-level spells before they end. I guess that's not entirely true, in a core or SRD game at low-level, I'd miss it because I can't deal damage directly when it's necessary as easily until level 3.

I'll note, though, that I actually prefer generalists because whether or not I use them, I like being able to cast any spell if need be.

[ryu]

Like I said elven generalist is RIGHT THERE. So is domain wizard. If either of those much less both at once are on the table all forms of specialization are obsolete unless the game is only going to be in super low levels where abrupt jaunt and hummingbird familiar edge out versatility for raw survivability and combat speed. If I'm banning two schools enchantment and evocation all day every day. If three I've got a legitimately difficult choice that will vary by party makeup.