3.x - Simulacrum City

[unseenmage]

For this project assume RAW is the order of the day.

Rather than bring friends and family of loved ones to Genesis demiplane use Detect Thoughts and Simulacrum to conjure folk from memories.
Is Detect Thoughts strong enough for such a task; what spell would be better?

EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that Detect Thoughts has nothing to do with Simulacrum. When I originally recorded this idea I was considering PF Simulacrum and had included Detect Thoughts as a means of suspending disbelief with regards to PF Sim not having a part of the subject necessary.
Detect Thoughts or similar was the only way I could imagine an outside party, let alone an unliving Int Magic Item, aiming the effect of a Simulacrum spell with any accurate recreation of the subject at all.

Dont want little Susie to cast the spell though, she'd be the creator and master of her conjured parents.

Intelligent Magic Items can activate their own special powers. Just make an Int Magic Item that can cast Detect Thoughts and Simulacrum and command it to only ever order it's Sims to have free will.
Make it Wondrous Architecture (SBG) to keep costs down somewhat.

Technically folk could make Sims of the deceased, of celebrities, of pets. Sims could make Sims of Sims too.
If a user asks for Sherlock Holmes do they get Robert Downey Jr?

Another idea is as above but makes Sims of Minor Servitors (SS) of mundane objects.

As above but uses True Creation to make mundane objects and materials.

As above but uses Fabricate and True Creation to make complex mundane objects.

As above but casts Genesis to expand the demiplane for the user's desired landscape.

Are Sims aware of what they are when conjured? Unlikely. Especially Sims of commoners or of folk from nonmagical worlds.

[Calthropstu]

They would know, or at least figure it out... unless they can somehow have sim babies? I don't know if they can do that.

[Quertus]

They would know, or at least figure it out... unless they can somehow have sim babies? I don't know if they can do that.

Well, by RAW, I fear they'd be able to have real babies, as I can think of nothing in the spell's text to remove that ability. :smalleek:

EDIT: then again, I've never seen a simulacrum need to eat...

[Calthropstu]

Well, by RAW, I fear they'd be able to have real babies, as I can think of nothing in the spell's text to remove that ability. :smalleek:

EDIT: then again, I've never seen a simulacrum need to eat...

You mean aside from being made out of ice and snow and being only "partially real?"

[unseenmage]

You mean aside from being made out of ice and snow and being only "partially real?"

Still doesn't exclude Sims having biological needs/opportunities. This is, after all, a world where Dragons breed with literally everything via magic or... otherwise.

That said, does making a Sim of a diseased person make a diseased Sim?

For my purposes 'not getting stronger' includes adding levels, HD, and templates.
This would mean that though a Sim could theoretically contract Lycanthropy and/or Vampirism, they couldn't become a Lycanthrope nor rise as a Vampire.

Though making a Vamp or Lycan Sim would still be possible if the original had already turned before you cast the spell.

[Segev]

Remember that one of the material components is a bit of the flesh of the original. You'll need blood samples, hair, teeth, carvings from the arm, something. For each simulacrum.

[unseenmage]

Remember that one of the material components is a bit of the flesh of the original. You'll need blood samples, hair, teeth, carvings from the arm, something. For each simulacrum.

There are ways around that though. Ways that can be transferred to items that cast the spells even, iirc.

[Segev]

There are ways around that though. Ways that can be transferred to items that cast the spells even, iirc.

I believe you, but I'm unable to think of any, so I'd be interested in being reminded and/or hearing of new ones.

[Quarian Rex]

Remember that one of the material components is a bit of the flesh of the original. You'll need blood samples, hair, teeth, carvings from the arm, something. For each simulacrum.

I always found it odd that this particular limitation was removed in the Pathfinder version. I'd houserule it back in but that's just me.

[unseenmage]

I believe you, but I'm unable to think of any, so I'd be interested in being reminded and/or hearing of new ones.

Same as usual, get it cast as a SLA. IIRC there's a go to class for that. Doubt it applies here though as we need the item to cast the spell.
Maybe a Weapon of Legacy could pull that off? Not sure.

Or use True Ceation to make the sample wholecloth. This is probably the best option.

Normally it just gets Eschew Materials-ed or pulled from the vast emptiness that is a spell component pouch.
Doubtful we can get an Intelligent Magic Item to do that though, at least not without making it a creature and giving it class levels.

(Which can technically be done but it requires 3.0 Animated Object LA from Dragon Mag, 3.0 Flying weapon enhancement from Magic of Faerun, and giving it canned xp by having it dodge traps.)



I always found it odd that this particular limitation was removed in the Pathfinder version. I'd houserule it back in but that's just me.

You think that's odd, go check out the limiters on 2nd edition's Simulacrum. A lot of the wonkiness of the 3.x version could have been avoided if they'd done just a wee bit more copypasta.

[rigsmal]

I believe you, but I'm unable to think of any, so I'd be interested in being reminded and/or hearing of new ones.

Dweomerkeeper -> Supernatural Spell is another approach. Works immediately by wish -> simulacrum.

For ice assassin, I think this works (open to corrections): arcane spellsurge + Uncanny Forethought -> standard action ice assassin on an open 9th-level slot -> Supernatural Spell. Can ice assassin anything as a standard action without needing components.

What I'm trying to say is 'ban Dweomerkeeper', of course.

[unseenmage]

This idea originally sprang from a theoretical wherein modern Earth folks get dropped on a Genisis demiplane equipped with the above Int Magic Items.

Who would they conjure? How many? What terrain would they make? How many modern amenities would they start crafting?
How do they react when the first of them expires and melts into a puddle of ice and snow?
How much does the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon) phenomenon start to come into play?
Do they eventually conjure a Playgrounder Sim who summarily breaks this Demiplane, and the rest of creation, over their knee with unadulterated optimization?

My mind wanders over the weirdest stuff when under insomnia's spell.

[Endarire]

Remember, any material component with no listed G cost is assumed in your spell component pouch. Even Epic Dragon Toenail Clippings.

[Doctor Awkward]

For this project assume RAW is the order of the day.

...Okay then.


Rather than bring friends and family of loved ones to Genesis demiplane use Detect Thoughts and Simulacrum to conjure folk from memories.
Is Detect Thoughts strong enough for such a task; what spell would be better?


Detect Thoughts has zero interaction with the Simulacrum spell. The creature to be duplicated by that spell is determined by the genetic sample placed inside of the ice and snow that the spell is cast over.


Or use True Ceation to make the sample wholecloth. This is probably the best option.

True Creation cannot create living matter. According to the Rules Compendium, with regards to spell targets a "living" creature is any creature that is not a construct, deathless, or undead.

Now, technically, hair and fingernails are made up of keratin, which is a biomolecule found in living organisms. But as you can expect RAW is silent on the interaction of magic spells and cellular biology.



Normally it just gets Eschew Materials-ed or pulled from the vast emptiness that is a spell component pouch.

By RAW, the spell component pouch contains only unimportant material components of negligible value.

RAW is silent of the "value" of a genetic sample of the creature being duplicated, but it is most certainly an important component in the casting.


Intelligent Magic Items can activate their own special powers. Just make an Int Magic Item that can cast Detect Thoughts and Simulacrum and command it to only ever order it's Sims to have free will.

A Simulacrum is at all times under the absolute control of it's creator, and there is no RAW method of severing this control. Ordering it to "have free will" will merely cause it to behave as it the creator believes it should behave.


Are Sims aware of what they are when conjured? Unlikely. Especially Sims of commoners or of folk from nonmagical worlds.

Simulacrums are not people, and arguably do not possess any awareness at all. They behave only as their creator instructs them to behave.


What I am saying is you are going to be doing a lot of house-ruling to make your SimCityTM function as you want it to function.

[unseenmage]

Detect Thoughts has zero interaction with the Simulacrum spell. The creature to be duplicated by that spell is determined by the genetic sample placed inside of the ice and snow that the spell is cast over.

Good catch on the Detect Thoughts spell. I was thinking of the PF version and that the only way I could imagine the spell working was that the idea of the Sim is given form and function by the magic.

However, the genetic sample bit is neither RAW nor accurate since Sims can be made of creatures lacking biology completely.


...
Simulacrums are not people, and arguably do not possess any awareness at all. They behave only as their creator instructs them to behave.
...
Care to cite your source as to Sims just not being people? Or not posessing awareness?
To my knowledge such things are granted creatures with high enough Int scores.

[Doctor Awkward]

However, the genetic sample bit is neither RAW nor accurate since Sims can be made of creatures lacking biology completely.

This is true, I was simply using terminology consistent with the description provided by the spell itself (I.E.: hair, nail clipping).

I also chose it mostly as a point of order with regards to using True Creation to obtain your samples for duplication.



Care to cite your source as to Sims just not being people? Or not posessing awareness?
To my knowledge such things are granted creatures with high enough Int scores.

For starters, the Simulacrum spell is an Illusion that contains the [Shadow] descriptor. As is noted under the appropriate subheading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow), Illusion spells are not real. Spells in that school with the shadow tag can produce partially real effects, but are are still simply illusions. Detect Magic would reveal that a creature created by a Simulacrum is entirely magical in nature, and of the Illusion school. Arcane Sight would also do this, and without requiring the effort of concentration. True Seeing would immediately reveal them as well.

Then there is further contextual evidence provided by the Simulacrum spell description. Specifically the lines illusory duplicate, partially real, and that it appears to be the same as the original, thus indicating it only "looks the part" while being something else entirely.

[Segev]

Dweomerkeeper -> Supernatural Spell is another approach. Works immediately by wish -> simulacrum.

For ice assassin, I think this works (open to corrections): arcane spellsurge + Uncanny Forethought -> standard action ice assassin on an open 9th-level slot -> Supernatural Spell. Can ice assassin anything as a standard action without needing components.

What I'm trying to say is 'ban Dweomerkeeper', of course.

My understanding is that the word "Dweomerkeeper" appearing in a post immediately made its entire text replaceable by "ban Dweomerkeeper." :smallwink:

[Doctor Awkward]

Dweomerkeeper -> Supernatural Spell is another approach. Works immediately by wish -> simulacrum.

For ice assassin, I think this works (open to corrections): arcane spellsurge + Uncanny Forethought -> standard action ice assassin on an open 9th-level slot -> Supernatural Spell. Can ice assassin anything as a standard action without needing components.

What I'm trying to say is 'ban Dweomerkeeper', of course.

I have multiple questions about this method:

1. This has always been something that stuck in my craw regarding Wish/Limited Wish, but the specific text of the spell states that you can use it to "Duplicate other spells". Note that it does not state the effects or the results of other spells. You are duplicating the spells themselves. Would it not follow this includes the casting time of said spells, in which case the casting time of Wish would be of the spell it is duplicating?

2. The Supernatural Spell ability states that it only functions on spells that the caster currently has access to, and specifies that they must be prepared if you are a prepared caster (or a spell known if you are a spontaneous caster). This doesn't appear to interact in any way with Uncanny Forethought's "reserved slots" of un-prepared spells.

3. Supernatural Spell also states that it specifically checks the "spell's casting time" when considering eligibility. Arcane Spellsurge alters the casters ability to cast spells, but does not change the spell itself (only the caster's ability to cast it is changed)...

3a. ...and even if it did, Arcane Spellsurge also explicitly states that it does not function with any other effect that reduces a spells casting time. This would appear to include Uncanny Forethought's reduction to a full-round action. As an aside, note that Uncanny Forethought (unlike Wish) specifically states that you resolve the spell as a full-round action, which, per the Rules Compendium includes all making pertinent decisions about said spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) and having targets make applicable saves, and then adjudicating the results.

[unseenmage]

...

For starters, the Simulacrum spell is an Illusion that contains the [Shadow] descriptor. As is noted under the appropriate subheading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow), Illusion spells are not real. Spells in that school with the shadow tag can produce partially real effects, but are are still simply illusions. Detect Magic would reveal that a creature created by a Simulacrum is entirely magical in nature, and of the Illusion school. Arcane Sight would also do this, and without requiring the effort of concentration. True Seeing would immediately reveal them as well.

Then there is further contextual evidence provided by the Simulacrum spell description. Specifically the lines illusory duplicate, partially real, and that it appears to be the same as the original, thus indicating it only "looks the part" while being something else entirely.
Okay, so they're partially real. What in game rules effect does this have on their will or anything else for that matter?

You've provided your opinion in full about what effect it could have and I appreciate your position but it doesn't affect the stated idea at all, except that you've made it clear you disagree with my interpretation/opinion. Thanks though.

EDIT Sorry, forgot to add that as the spell is Instantaneous in duration Detect Magic has nothing to detect and even Spellcraft identifying an ongoing spell effect is sketchy.
They're as real at that point as the stone made by a Wall of Stone spell for those purposes.

[rigsmal]

1. This has always been something that stuck in my craw regarding Wish/Limited Wish, but the specific text of the spell states that you can use it to "Duplicate other spells". Note that it does not state the effects or the results of other spells. You are duplicating the spells themselves. Would it not follow this includes the casting time of said spells, in which case the casting time of Wish would be of the spell it is duplicating?

If wish literally duplicated the exact stats of the spells, it wouldn't have the same component XP cost, so I think we can reasonably say wish duplicates everything except what's necessarily a part of wish. But wish has a casting time of a standard action, without qualifiers. It's unlikely the designers would've forgotten to qualify "unless duplicating a spell" since that's one of its main effects. It's also vague, as in how does legend lore or scrying work without the requisite casting time or components.

In brief, it's clear that wish duplicates via a standard action, but this is not entirely consistent with everything. I think, however, wish to simulacrum is pretty unambiguously a standard action, since you are casting the spell wish which has the listed casting time of a standard action, not the spell simulacrum and thus not using the latter's casting time.


2. The Supernatural Spell ability states that it only functions on spells that the caster currently has access to, and specifies that they must be prepared if you are a prepared caster (or a spell known if you are a spontaneous caster). This doesn't appear to interact in any way with Uncanny Forethought's "reserved slots" of un-prepared spells.

3. Supernatural Spell also states that it specifically checks the "spell's casting time" when considering eligibility. Arcane Spellsurge alters the casters ability to cast spells, but does not change the spell itself (only the caster's ability to cast it is changed)...

3a. ...and even if it did, Arcane Spellsurge also explicitly states that it does not function with any other effect that reduces a spells casting time. This would appear to include Uncanny Forethought's reduction to a full-round action. As an aside, note that Uncanny Forethought (unlike Wish) specifically states that you resolve the spell as a full-round action, which, per the Rules Compendium includes all making pertinent decisions about said spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) and having targets make applicable saves, and then adjudicating the results.

These concerns are mine as well, but I wasn't near enough a computer to check. I believe there is enough fuzziness to make an argument w.r.t. 2 and 3, but optimization abhors arguments from ambiguity, so I'd just strike down the idea. Just to note, w.r.t. 3a, Uncanny Forethought is not reducing a spell's casting time because it's independent of a spell's listed casting time. You are, as a full-round action, casting a spell. Full stop. No effect on its casting time a la the spell description. This was your point of concern in 3 as well, so to be consistent, 3 and 3a are mutually exclusive.

But hey, here's another idea I'm going to throw out there without checking if it works:
1. Have a Dweomerkeeper wish for an energy transformation field of ice assassin.
2. Toss in nine levels of spells.
3. ???
4. Profit.

[unseenmage]

...

But hey, here's another idea I'm going to throw out there without checking if it works:
1. Have a Dweomerkeeper wish for an energy transformation field of ice assassin.
2. Toss in nine levels of spells.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Have looked into ETFields of Sim spell and its ilk but sadly ETField cannot have spells in it with expensive or xp components.

Closest I got was ETField of Summon Monster 9 for arcane or divine spellcaster, but then duration of the summon can't be raised high enough for the summon to cast Simulacrum or similarly long casting time spells AND summons are explicitly disallowed minionmamcy of their own.
It was a bummer.

[Doctor Awkward]

Okay, so they're partially real. What in game rules effect does this have on their will or anything else for that matter?

You've provided your opinion in full about what effect it could have and I appreciate your position but it doesn't affect the stated idea at all, except that you've made it clear you disagree with my interpretation/opinion. Thanks though.

EDIT Sorry, forgot to add that as the spell is Instantaneous in duration Detect Magic has nothing to detect and even Spellcraft identifying an ongoing spell effect is sketchy.
They're as real at that point as the stone made by a Wall of Stone spell for those purposes.

/shrug

Well you weren't asking for my opinion, you were asking for what it says in the rules. Per RAW, Simulacrums don't think, because they are substandard imitations of something else that are under the absolute control of their creator. Compare this with Ice Assassin out of Frostburn, which is explicitly stated to be, in many ways, a superior version of Simulacrum. That spell explicitly states that the copy gains the thoughts and memories of the original (albeit twisted by the fact that it was to kill it), and is capable of independent thought with regards to finding and killing the thing it is a copy of.

If a Simulacrum could also do those things, then the spell would say so. Because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what can happen, not what can't.


I'm not saying this to be mean. I don't think the idea is a bad one. I think the problem is in your approach.

As a DM, you could probably write a really compelling adventure around the concept of a high-level illusionist, or Shadowcraft Mage, who for whatever reason spent years of independent research increasing the quasi-reality of his shadow illusions until he came up with a version of Simulacrum that only he could cast which DID create free-thinking copies. And then around that idea create whatever crisis is now confronting them. The central theme of what defines "being alive" could be used to weave a powerful and provocative narrative for your players to explore.

But I think you are really hamstringing yourself by trying to stick to the letter of the rules on this, for whatever reason you feel you need to.

[druid91]

I saw this, and was dissapointed when I saw this wasn't an overly complex way to create a Simulacrum of a cities Zeitgeist.

[Doctor Awkward]

These concerns are mine as well, but I wasn't near enough a computer to check. I believe there is enough fuzziness to make an argument w.r.t. 2 and 3, but optimization abhors arguments from ambiguity, so I'd just strike down the idea. Just to note, w.r.t. 3a, Uncanny Forethought is not reducing a spell's casting time because it's independent of a spell's listed casting time. You are, as a full-round action, casting a spell. Full stop. No effect on its casting time a la the spell description. This was your point of concern in 3 as well, so to be consistent, 3 and 3a are mutually exclusive.


They are, and that's exactly my point.

It either doesn't work as intended because Arcane Spellsurge doesn't technically modify the spells casting time, and thus the spell is still ineligible for Supernatural Spell. Or it does modify the spells casting time and thus does not stack with Uncanny Forethought.

Either way it's a wash.


In regards to wish, it's possible the designers didn't specify about casting time because they didn't think they had to. The word "duplicating" is pretty cut and dry to me: exactly like something else, especially through having been copied. So why would you duplicate everything else about the spell except it's casting time?

In any case, RAW is unclear and all we have is personal interpretation.

[unseenmage]

I saw this, and was dissapointed when I saw this wasn't an overly complex way to create a Simulacrum of a cities Zeitgeist.

It could be.

I mean if you have stats for a Zeitgeist creature then viola, you could get a Simulacrum of it.

Alternatively, a high enough CL Sim spell could make you a Sim of an Animated Object or Minor Servitor of an entire city, theoretically.
Though at that point the Sim would likely be of the earthen foundation under the city and the city would likely be but an adornment on its back.

[rigsmal]

If wish duplicated everything, as I said, it also would lose its 5,000 XP cost for whatever spell it's duplicating. This obviously doesn't happen and neither does the casting time get duplicated.

When you cast wish, you use the casting time and component costs listed under wish because you are casting wish. When wish duplicates a spell, you are not casting the spell being duplicated so you do not use its casting time. This is unambiguous. Thus you can wish for a simulacrum as a standard action.

I'm saying there's ambiguity for cases where the duplicated spell makes explicit use of its own casting time or components. But simulacrum is neither so it's not a question of interpretation.

In any case, here's another suggestion to get ice assassin off wish.
1. Be a Dweomerkeeper.
2. Use Supernatural Spell on wish to get an energy transformation field of an epic 0 DC spell (mitigated by 220 via extending casting time) with no XP component cost using the Mythal seed with ice assassin as a vanguard power keyed to you.
3. ???
4. Profit.

EDIT: To have an energy transformation field of an epic spell, the latter must first exist. Gate in an elder titan to develop the spell instantly (due to Spellcraft DC 0). Fixes that problem. I assume our optimized Dweomerkeeper has no trouble hitting the necessary CL.

[unseenmage]

...

But I think you are really hamstringing yourself by trying to stick to the letter of the rules on this, for whatever reason you feel you need to.
For the record I have looked into what little non-RAW Simulacrum has in regards to Sims and free will in the D&D fiction, older editions, and adventures.

I'm "hamstringing" myself here with the RAW because that was what I set out to do having already looked into the 'official' (for lack of a better word) non-RAW approaches to the spell.

For what it's worth free willed Sims, Clones, and whatnot are a thing, not surprisingly. Someone somewhere thought they were a cool enough idea to explore.

Sometimes just because their master ceases, sometines time just piles up and they change somehow, but I'll admit that most oft it is considered a malfunction of the magic for such to occur.

That said I will also admit that what I am proposing here is a nonstandard use of the spell. Almost an 'intentionally creating cursed items' approach, if you will.

But I think it works, and I think it's potentialky useful to have Wondrous Architecture Int Magic Items cast minionmancy for strangers. There's little to no chance that the architecture will hunt someone down to reclaim control of a given away magically generated minion.

Also, you're cherry picking a bit with your focus on the Shadow subheading, namely by ignoring the, "Such illusions can have real effects.", part.
Why couldn't permissable free will, aging, a need to eat and breath, babymaking, etc be 'real effects' of the spell?

[druid91]

It could be.

I mean if you have stats for a Zeitgeist creature then viola, you could get a Simulacrum of it.

Alternatively, a high enough CL Sim spell could make you a Sim of an Animated Object or Minor Servitor of an entire city, theoretically.
Though at that point the Sim would likely be of the earthen foundation under the city and the city would likely be but an adornment on its back.

The Zeitgeist is a creature in the book cityscape. A CR 23 Fey.

[Quarian Rex]

Also, you're cherry picking a bit with your focus on the Shadow subheading, namely by ignoring the, "Such illusions can have real effects.", part.
Why couldn't permissable free will, aging, a need to eat and breath, babymaking, etc be 'real effects' of the spell?

The 'real effects' refers to the ability to pick up a fork and slap someone, as opposed to being a glorified hologram. To take the nigh-kryptonian leap necessary to get from there to, "free will, aging, a need to eat and breath, babymaking, etc", would put you so far beyond even RAI that RAW would merely be the ghost of a myth chanted by the hill-folk. You say that you're approaching this strictly from RAW (indeed, you've gone out of your way to point this out) but your interpretation is anything but. The disappointing part is that your current view is the most boring one possible in this scenario. You've reduced this to trying to justify a hand-wavey people making machine, with the caveat that it can make people that you might know. I is disappoint.

If you looked at the scenario that you have created and saw how it would play out using the actual RAW Simulacrum spell (instead of trying to tack on effects, that were in no way implied in the spell, that turn it into an act of creation usually reserved for the gods) I think you would have something much more interesting. Even looking at the spell from it's most restrictive version.

What kind of madman would it take to populate a pocket dimension with copies of people he has met (taken samples from) instead of offering sanctuary to those same people from the land of death that is most campaign worlds? What effect would this have on their psyche? Every human they meet would eventually be seen as little more that a new template for future friends of their own creation. Even if he started from a benevolent place and told his creations that they should act 'normal' (and so would act as he expects that to look like) that illusion could be broken in an instant should he utter a command. What if there were more than one creator? Different segments of the population could have wildly different allegiances. Seeing how this plays out when the creators go to war could lead to 'families' being split down odd lines with some taking up arms against each other while other segments of the population might just carry on with their lives as if nothing odd is happening since their creator has died and the last command he gave was to act normal. Does the creator do regular raids to the prime material to collect samples from random locations (perhaps the PCs were called in to investigate attacks on villages where everyone was rounded up but the only things taken were locks of hair)?

There are a lot of interesting ways you could go with this if you attempt it using the actual spell. Think about it.

[Jack_Simth]

For starters, the Simulacrum spell is an Illusion that contains the [Shadow] descriptor. As is noted under the appropriate subheading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow), Illusion spells are not real. Spells in that school with the shadow tag can produce partially real effects, but are are still simply illusions. Detect Magic would reveal that a creature created by a Simulacrum is entirely magical in nature, and of the Illusion school. Arcane Sight would also do this, and without requiring the effort of concentration. True Seeing would immediately reveal them as well.
A couple of notes on that:
1: Partially real isn't fully defined in terms of "personhood". A sim of a critter with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores will have those scores. At what point do you define: "Real" enough for "person" in terms of game mechanics? This is a ethics and philosophy question, rather than a mechanics question, and isn't really definitively answerable outside individual gaming tables.
2: Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, and related will only show the illusion school for 1d6*10 minutes, and at that, only a Dim aura. The reason? It's an Instant spell. The magic has come and gone, the effect remains. After that, those spells will tell you nothing.
3: True Seeing: Will show you that it's made of ice and snow. However: That's irrelevant for the question of "person" as - again, "person" is a philosophical construct.

Then there is further contextual evidence provided by the Simulacrum spell description. Specifically the lines illusory duplicate, partially real, and that it appears to be the same as the original, thus indicating it only "looks the part" while being something else entirely.
That just means it's not the original. A skilled taikomochi appears to be a woman, but that's an illusion. It's true that one '"looks the part" while being something else entirely' but that 'something else' is still a person.


Edit:
Oh yes: And for a quick & easy way to make Simulacrums: Start with an advanced Mirror Memphit (Expidition to the Demonweb Pits, page 208). They have the necessary spell as a spell-like ability. Just 1/day, but that can build up. They also have an Advancement line that gets them over double their normal HD, and a high enough caster level on Simulacrum to make Sims of 16 HD critters (resulting in an 8 HD critter). These things can clone themselves and make a Simulacrum City in relatively short order: If we assume that a Simulacrum starts with all abilities expended, and we start with one from a scroll, wish, or whatever on "day 0"... on "day 1" we have 2. On Day 2 we have 4. And so on. On day 30, you've got 1,073,741,824 of them. They can then spit out 1,073,741,824 simulacrums of whatever each day. A week later, you've exceeded the current population of earth with whatever your target critter is.

[Doctor Awkward]

If wish duplicated everything, as I said, it also would lose its 5,000 XP cost for whatever spell it's duplicating. This obviously doesn't happen and neither does the casting time get duplicated.

When you cast wish, you use the casting time and component costs listed under wish because you are casting wish. When wish duplicates a spell, you are not casting the spell being duplicated so you do not use its casting time. This is unambiguous. Thus you can wish for a simulacrum as a standard action.

I'm saying there's ambiguity for cases where the duplicated spell makes explicit use of its own casting time or components. But simulacrum is neither so it's not a question of interpretation.

In any case, here's another suggestion to get ice assassin off wish.
1. Be a Dweomerkeeper.
2. Use Supernatural Spell on wish to get an energy transformation field of an epic 0 DC spell (mitigated by 220 via extending casting time) with no XP component cost using the Mythal seed with ice assassin as a vanguard power keyed to you.
3. ???
4. Profit.

EDIT: To have an energy transformation field of an epic spell, the latter must first exist. Gate in an elder titan to develop the spell instantly (due to Spellcraft DC 0). Fixes that problem. I assume our optimized Dweomerkeeper has no trouble hitting the necessary CL.

This will be the last time I'll derail the thread just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity on this matter:

What would happen if a wizard used Limited Wish to duplicate Assay Spell Resistance? Would it come out as a swift action or a standard action?

[rigsmal]

This will be the last time I'll derail the thread just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity on this matter:

What would happen if a wizard used Limited Wish to duplicate Assay Spell Resistance? Would it come out as a swift action or a standard action?

Distressingly, a standard action. You want something really screwy? Wish for celerity. That's right: Spend a standard action to gain a standard action, and get dazed for the privilege of doing so. On top of the 5,000 XP surcharge, of course.

That's how it works by RAW, but if I were DM, I'd let my players wish for celerity as an immediate action.

[unseenmage]

A couple of notes on that:
1: Partially real isn't fully defined in terms of "personhood". A sim of a critter with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores will have those scores. At what point do you define: "Real" enough for "person" in terms of game mechanics? This is a ethics and philosophy question, rather than a mechanics question, and isn't really definitively answerable outside individual gaming tables.
2: Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, and related will only show the illusion school for 1d6*10 minutes, and at that, only a Dim aura. The reason? It's an Instant spell. The magic has come and gone, the effect remains. After that, those spells will tell you nothing.
3: True Seeing: Will show you that it's made of ice and snow. However: That's irrelevant for the question of "person" as - again, "person" is a philosophical construct.
That just means it's not the original. A skilled taikomochi appears to be a woman, but that's an illusion. It's true that one '"looks the part" while being something else entirely' but that 'something else' is still a person.

Very illuminating, thank you for your clear explanations.
One thing, what is this taikomochi you mention? Afraid you lost me there.



Edit:
Oh yes: And for a quick & easy way to make Simulacrums: Start with an advanced Mirror Memphit (Expidition to the Demonweb Pits, page 208). They have the necessary spell as a spell-like ability. Just 1/day, but that can build up. They also have an Advancement line that gets them over double their normal HD, and a high enough caster level on Simulacrum to make Sims of 16 HD critters (resulting in an 8 HD critter). These things can clone themselves and make a Simulacrum City in relatively short order: If we assume that a Simulacrum starts with all abilities expended, and we start with one from a scroll, wish, or whatever on "day 0"... on "day 1" we have 2. On Day 2 we have 4. And so on. On day 30, you've got 1,073,741,824 of them. They can then spit out 1,073,741,824 simulacrums of whatever each day. A week later, you've exceeded the current population of earth with whatever your target critter is.
I was aware of Mirror Mephits but had forgotten Advancing them was so effective.

My goal here wasn't to spam Simulacrum as much as to allow lonely Earthlings and Earthling Sims to conjure familiar faces.

That said, seeing the math for Mirror Mephit Sim spam IS impressive. Still useful to me too since, as mentiined, an Earthling Sim could conjure a Playgrounder who could conjure a Mirror Mephit, theoretically. :smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

Very illuminating, thank you for your clear explanations.
One thing, what is this taikomochi you mention? Afraid you lost me there.

Male Geisha.



I was aware of Mirror Mephits but had forgotten Advancing them was so effective.

Well, the main reason for starting with an Advanced mirror memphit is the "and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD" clause in Simulacrum. It'd be really easy to say that Simulacrum isn't an appropriate special ability for a critter with 1 hit die, but if you start with a maximally Advanced Mirror Memphit, the end result has more than the standard... and it's a spell-like ability of the critter, so there's no need to keep a piece of the original. You do the same thing when making using Simulacrum to duplicate Efreeti, Glabrezou, or Solars, and for a similar reason.


My goal here wasn't to spam Simulacrum as much as to allow lonely Earthlings and Earthling Sims to conjure familiar faces.

That said, seeing the math for Mirror Mephit Sim spam IS impressive. Still useful to me too since, as mentiined, an Earthling Sim could conjure a Playgrounder who could conjure a Mirror Mephit, theoretically. :smallsmile:
Basic exponential growth. Compound interest at 100% per day.