Psionic Gish.

[SangoProduction]

In 3.5, there are some psionic classes.

Naturally, Psychic Warrior seems to be intended to be the Gish class. However, of course, being a gish class, it's got quite the hampered casting. Casting does tend to be helpful. Psion, conversely, while having marginally fewer BAB, has significantly greater casting progression. Would it be better to make a gish out of a psion specialization (maybe the body manipulation one, idk), or just work with the existing Psychic Warrior?

[Elkad]

That depends entirely on what you are looking for. And how you fit in the party.

How much balance between beating, buffing, and blasting?
If you just want to be 25'4" tall with short-range teleports and acid dripping off your sword so you can roll a double-handful of d6 for damage, PsiWar works fine.
If you want to Alter Reality while you beat things with a sword, you go Psion.

[PhantasyPen]

Since psionics doesn't really have an Abjurant Champion analogue, I'd say PsyWar is probably the best thing gish-wise. But then again, I never particularly cared too much about making sure I got ninth-level "casting" on my Gish builds, which is why Duskblade is my preferred gish, not AbjChamp.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What you're looking for is the Ardent. Full manifesting, medium BAB, heavy armor proficiency, and access to top-notch gish powers like Dimension Hop and Metamorphosis. One of 3.5's best gish-in-a-can options.

There's also the full-BAB, 9/10 castingS(Illithid) Slayer PrC, which can be entered as a single-classed Psion or Ardent if you so desire.

[PhantasyPen]

What you're looking for is the Ardent. Full manifesting, medium BAB, heavy armor proficiency, and access to top-notch gish powers like Dimension Hop and Metamorphosis. One of 3.5's best gish-in-a-can options.

There's also the full-BAB, 9/10 castingS(Illithid) Slayer PrC, which can be entered as a single-classed Psion or Ardent if you so desire.

Ardent's HitDie is only d6 tho, which if you're frontlining is usually not a good thing in my experience.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ardent's HitDie is only d6 tho, which if you're frontlining is usually not a good thing in my experience.
The PsyWar is only d8, which isn't much better. And both can use Vigor (and the Share Pain combo, with a little effort) to get obscene amounts of temporary hit points, if they really want.

Ardent also builds real well into Slayer and/or Sanctified Mind. They learn powers based on their manifester level, rather than class level, meaning you can lose up to 4 ML, take Practiced Manifester, and come out largely okay.

[PhantasyPen]

The PsyWar is only d8, which isn't much better. And both can use Vigor (and the Share Pain combo, with a little effort) to get obscene amounts of temporary hit points, if they really want.

Ardent also builds real well into Slayer and/or Sanctified Mind. They learn powers based on their manifester level, rather than class level, meaning you can lose up to 4 ML, take Practiced Manifester, and come out largely okay.

I've seen this mentioned before, where in the class description does it actually say this? I really want to know, since I've never really touched the Ardent before.

[Sian]

I would say that Wilder is an under appreciated consideration, fewer (with Educated Wilder its a bit easier and flexible) but stronger powers that can throw out more pp worth of stuff, medium bab, above average touch AC ... but only d6

[Nifft]

I've seen this mentioned before, where in the class description does it actually say this? I really want to know, since I've never really touched the Ardent before.

Have you read the Ardent?

Just find the section which tells you what power level you can learn.

If it's unclear after that, let us know what you think it's saying, and we can hopefully help narrow down the text.

[PhantasyPen]

I am reading the Ardent, I see nothing in Powers Known which says "the Ardent continues learning powers even if they are not currently taking levels in Ardent." I know that a Prestige Class would continue to advance manifesting, because that's how PrC's work, but I see nothing that indicates Practiced Manifester and four levels of Fighter or something would achieve the same effect. (As a side note, until reading the Powers Known section, I simply believed that because their powers known were limited to their mantles the Ardent just learned everything their mantles offered for free... Which really says how little I've even glanced at the class.)

[Nifft]

Okay, that's the misunderstanding.

Nobody is saying that ex-Ardents get to keep learning powers after they stop being Ardents.


Here's what they mean:

When an Ardent gains a new class level, what level of power is an Ardent allowed to learn? What limits the level of the newest power?

[PhantasyPen]

Okay, that's the misunderstanding.

Nobody is saying that ex-Ardents get to keep learning powers after they stop being Ardents.


Here's what they mean:

When an Ardent gains a new class level, what level of power is an Ardent allowed to learn? What limits the level of the newest power?

Okay, I'm starting to get your point here, but at the same time this still feels kind of cheesy to me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry for being unclear... The Ardent doesn't learn powers while multiclassing. But when they take a level of Ardent, they learn powers based on their ML, rather than a "max power level" entry on their class table. They don't have the same sort of limits as, say, the Psion. If you have ML 5, you can learn 3rd level powers even if you only have two Ardent levels.

I mean, I don't know if you WANT to all the time, because your pp will be limited, but it's there.

[Nifft]

Okay, I'm starting to get your point here, but at the same time this still feels kind of cheesy to me.

You're exactly correct: it is kind of cheesy.

Basically, the Ardent doesn't have an explicit max-level-list, which is a thing every other Psionic class has, but rather uses manifester level to determine max power level.

The same book publishes a Feat which increases your manifester level -- the designers should have seen this interaction coming.

The argument that it's intended could be made, but that argument assumes competent writing & editing within Complete Psionic, and therefore that argument is wrong.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you have ML 5, you can learn 5th level powers even if you only have two Ardent levels. 3rd level powers, not 5th.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Heh.

In any case, even with that cheese aside, the Ardent makes an excellent gish. Ardent 6/Slayer 10/Sanctified Mind 4 gives you +18 BAB and 18th level manifesting, and is playable as a gish from 1-20. Wilder works too, but with worse power access; Psion works well at higher levels but loses out at low.

[gkathellar]

Basically they're two different beasts (or 3, considering the ardent). Psychic Warriors really play like their name suggests: they have psychic powers, and they're warriors. They can variously use these powers for utility, getting hueg, messing with the action economy, and doing other stuff that helps them overcome the limits other warriors often run into. They're a bit like a toned-down CoDzilla.

Psion (or Wilder), on the other hand, can be used to construct a more typical gish. This is typically done with Illithid Slayer, and it works about as well as your garden-variety arcane gish. It bears noting that Wilder powers known are pathetic, so ... bear that in mind.

Ardent falls somewhere in between. It can get some of the Psywar's cool self-buffs and has access to high level powers, but off of a custom list that you'll have to work out. It, too, is a natural Illithid Slayer fit. Exactly how it plays depends on your mantles selected.

[Nifft]

Naturally, Psychic Warrior seems to be intended to be the Gish class. However, of course, being a gish class, it's got quite the hampered casting. Casting does tend to be helpful. Psion, conversely, while having marginally fewer BAB, has significantly greater casting progression. Would it be better to make a gish out of a psion specialization (maybe the body manipulation one, idk), or just work with the existing Psychic Warrior?

So, just to comment on this...

Psychic Warrior does not have hampered casting.

It has hampered power selection, and fewer power points, but the default class powers are very good at Gish-type things... but if you get access to a Psion power, you can manifest it as hard & effectively as a Psion could.

Furthermore, with the [Psionic] feat Expanded Knowledge, a Psychic Warrior can pick up Psion or Discipline powers -- and the Psychic Warrior gets a lot of bonus [Psionic] feats, so that's an easy thing.

High-level "spells" like dominate monster are often just Augmentations of lower-level powers, and the Psychic Warrior has a full manifester level, so the PsyWar can access the equivalents of some 9th level spells at the same level that a Psion could -- you just need to find lower-level powers that Augment into higher-level effects.

For example, the Psi Charm power. A Psychic Warrior could pick this power up at level 5 or 6, and manifest the equivalent of charm monster at the same character level as a full-class Telepath. The Psi Dominate power similarly starts affecting humanoids when the PsiWar picks it up as a level 4 power and spends 7 power points, but Augments into a full dominate monster.

Gish-y powers like metamorphsis are also available through this mechanism.


tl;dr - PsyWars get lower-level powers and PsyWar PP limits demand power efficiency, but they have full-caster potential.

[Zaq]

I played a Wilder as a gish in a one-shot once. The basic idea was to load up on all-day buffs (including a few of the nice natural weapon ones from the PsyWar list), Surged for all they're worth at the start of the day, and with a couple backup powers to still feel magical. I forget if I had enough power slots to pull off the old Vigor + Share Pain + Psycrystal trick. Not sure if I'd have stayed interested in it if the game had been more than a one-shot, but it was effective and different from what I usually play.

Ardent and PsyWar definitely do it better, as mentioned, but the Wilder is functional.

[Nifft]

I played a Wilder as a gish in a one-shot once. The basic idea was to load up on all-day buffs (including a few of the nice natural weapon ones from the PsyWar list), Surged for all they're worth at the start of the day, and with a couple backup powers to still feel magical. I forget if I had enough power slots to pull off the old Vigor + Share Pain + Psycrystal trick. Not sure if I'd have stayed interested in it if the game had been more than a one-shot, but it was effective and different from what I usually play.

Ardent and PsyWar definitely do it better, as mentioned, but the Wilder is functional.

The heart-breaking thing about Wilders is that a Psion can enter the Anarchic Initiate class and do the Wilder's own trick better, without suffering the Wilder's limitations.