Best standard spell for a wizard?

[Mrark]

Hey everyone, I am playing a wizard for the first time and I still am trying to get in with it, so I was wondering... Are there any spells which can be told "better" than the others? If there are, can someone give me a list of the best spells for each level based on their opinions, and a brief motivation of why you think so?

[Cosi]

This is a pretty good list of combat spells (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962).

[Mrark]

This is a pretty good list of combat spells (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962).

My dm actually accepts some spells from other books than the standard one, but not that many, so the spells I'm looking for are mostly in the basic book ahahah

[Eldariel]

What sources are you working with and what kind of a Wizard would you like to be? Generally the most efficient offensive effects (with no work) are battlefield control and AOE crowd control á la:
1. Grease, Color Spray, Sleep (Grease is the only one that doesn't fall off)
2. Web, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics
3. Slow, Stinking Cloud
4. Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Confusion, Resilient Sphere
5. Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Interposing Hand
6. (Antimagic Field), Acid Fog, Wall of Iron
7. Reverse Gravity, Forcecage, Greater Shadow Conjuration
8. Polymorph Any Object, Greater Shadow Evocation
9. Shapechange, Gate, Prismatic Sphere, Crushing Hand can all do this but it's really not what you mostly use them for.

These allow you to pick the enemies you want to hit, split crowds, weaken your enemies to the point that they're easy to take down or just plain disable and kill them (á la Black Tentacles or Bigby's Crushing Hand). Use the one that targets opponent's weak saves, or the one that doesn't care about saves depending on the situation. These spells are great because they can do great many things and are useful in 1v1 as much as large fights. Antimagic Field is a bit special in that you want to be able to exclude yourself from the spell before you really should consider deploying it (Archmage's Mastery of Shaping and Extraordinary Spell Aim [Complete Adventurer] both do this) - though if you can find ways to cast in an AMF, all the better as it protects you. Scroll of AMF for your familiar can be quite strong too.

Then you have the single target debuffs and kill spells, which are strong but generally should be reserved for tough opponents and aimed at weak defenses. These include:

1. Ray of Enfeeblement
2. Command Undead
3. Ray of Exhaustion
4. Enervation
5. Baleful Polymorph, Dismissal, Feeblemind, Magic Jar, Telekinesis, Dominate Person
6. Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Geas
7. Finger of Death, Control Undead, Power Word Blind
8. Irresistible Dance, Polymorph Any Object, Power Word Stun
9. Mostly better stuff.

Then you get buffs, which should be used when they're supereffective or you have nothing else to contribute:

1. Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon (scroll to hit incorporeals), Mage Armor, Protection from X
2. Invisibility, Bull's Strength-line, Resist Energy
3. Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Heroism, Keen Edge, Magic Circle against X
4. Polymorph, Greater Invisibility
5.
6. Greater Heroism
7.
8. Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object
9.


And finally utility and defense:

1. Silent Image (and related spells)
2. Rope Trick (rest place), Mirror Image, Alter Self, See Invisibility
3. Blink, Displacement, Arcane Sight, Dispel Magic
4. Dimensional Anchor, Scrying
5. Teleport, Permanency
6. Contingency (tied to e.g. teleportation effects and a broadly applicable signal like saying a word you'd normally never say), Greater Dispel Magic
7. Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, Project Image, Greater Scrying
8. Greater Prying Eyes, Discern Location, Dimensional Lock, Moment of Prescience
9. Foresight, Shapechange, Astral Projection, Time Stop


Then just your usual minionmancy:
Animate Dead
Lesser/Normal/Greater Planar Binding
Simulacrum
Gate

Summon Monster-line, which is its own thing.

And social control spells like Charm/Dominate Person/Monster (they double as combat spells but inefficiently due to limitations).


That's the big ones out of the way. For more info, check e.g. Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471542-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-a-God-in-D-amp-D-3-5-(Treantmonklvl20-CantripN-Tsuyoshi)) - but yeah, a hugely versatile class capable of doing almost anything if you put your mind to it.

[PhantasyPen]

My dm actually accepts some spells from other books than the standard one, but not that many, so the spells I'm looking for are mostly in the basic book ahahah

I shall assume (dangerous thing to do, I know) that you mean the Player's Handbook here, and just recommend an old mainstay: magic missile.

[Calthropstu]

The best spells are those that fit your party's needs and play styles.
I could defeat high level parties or monsters with low level spells such as ghost sound and silent image, or blast them to smithereens with maximized disintigrate.
What kind of playstyle are you looking for? Battlefield control? Destruction? Mind manipulation? Misleading? Looking for information? Party buffing? Summoning? Illusions? Enhance mobility? There are great spells to do all these and more.

[Cosi]

1. Grease, Color Spray, Sleep (Grease is the only one that doesn't fall off)

silent image and charm person are also good.


Then you get buffs, which should be used when they're supereffective or you have nothing else to contribute:

Bear in mind that if you have a Cleric in your party, you should avoid learning any spell that's on the Cleric list because it will be much more effective to have him cast those (this applies to some earlier spells, but there are a lot of buffs listed that are on the Cleric list).


1. Silent Image (and related spells)

As noted, I wouldn't exactly call this a defensive spell, at least not purely. It's an instant win against a mindless enemy, and pretty good in general.


2. Rope Trick (rest place)

Note that while this is a 2nd level spell, you shouldn't be preparing it at 3rd level. For it to last all night you either need to Extend it (requiring you to be 5th level so that you have 3rd level slots), or just have a CL of 8 (preferably 9) or higher.


Summon Monster-line, which is its own thing.

These are overrated in combat, because the summons are pretty bad. I would keep around a summon monster IV once you hit 9th or so (and it's not hogging a top level slot), but other than that you can probably pass on them.


I shall assume (dangerous thing to do, I know) that you mean the Player's Handbook here, and just recommend an old mainstay: magic missile.

Don't use magic missile. In general, dealing damage is bad and dealing it with spells is worse. If you really feel the need, use buff spells to up other people's damage output.

[Eldariel]

These are overrated in combat, because the summons are pretty bad. I would keep around a summon monster IV once you hit 9th or so (and it's not hogging a top level slot), but other than that you can probably pass on them.

Well, that depends; having an extra set of actions that can present any number of spells (albeit at low CLs and save DCs) can definitely be useful; readied actions to interrupt enemy spells or attacks by blocking LOE/LOS are pretty good when you're trading in essence an extra action for their main action(s). True, for combat vs. MM monsters they tend to only be so good even with Augment Summoning but the spell line is incredibly versatile - it does have its place even on non-specialists. Being able to control where they appear and getting to act immediately are both pretty sweet benefits even in combat use. Of course, the whole line is useless without an SLA list but this resource for example does admirably (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5). Certainly, they mostly exist to buy some lower power actions spread across a longer fight or for "prebuffing" before you TP in though.


As for Silent Image, yeah, I intended it under utility but I got bored of making way too many categories and didn't wanna place it in two so it ended up in the utility+defense one.

[Calthropstu]

Don't use magic missile. In general, dealing damage is bad and dealing it with spells is worse. If you really feel the need, use buff spells to up other people's damage output.

I disagree. Magic Missle is extremely useful and very very reliable. Often, it is the best option available for dealing with major threats... especially if those threats are incorporeal.

[PhantasyPen]

Don't use magic missile. In general, dealing damage is bad and dealing it with spells is worse. If you really feel the need, use buff spells to up other people's damage output.

In a high-op game or when playing with high system mastery this might be true. The OP's post leads me to believe this is neither. Also I am generally of the opinion that this type of thinking tends to lead to a nuclear arms race between the player and the DM. Besides, dealing damage is fun, there's just something viscerally satisfying about tossing a fireball and watching the enemy camp explode.

[Cosi]

Well, that depends; having an extra set of actions that can present any number of spells (albeit at low CLs and save DCs) can definitely be useful; readied actions to interrupt enemy spells or attacks by blocking LOE/LOS are pretty good when you're trading in essence an extra action for their main action(s). True, for combat vs. MM monsters they tend to only be so good even with Augment Summoning but the spell line is incredibly versatile - it does have its place even on non-specialists. Being able to control where they appear and getting to act immediately are both pretty sweet benefits even in combat use. Of course, the whole line is useless without an SLA list but this resource for example does admirably (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5). Certainly, they mostly exist to buy some lower power actions spread across a longer fight or for "prebuffing" before you TP in though.

I'm not saying they're useless, but I would almost never spend a top level spell slot on summon monster or any variety.


I disagree. Magic Missle is extremely useful and very very reliable. Often, it is the best option available for dealing with major threats... especially if those threats are incorporeal.

The best option for dealing with incorporeal monsters is still "have the melee guy hit it in the face". Consider a Shadow. A single CL 3 cast of magic missile averages 7 damage to it. Assuming your party damage dealer has a non-magic Greatsword, +3 BAB, and 16 STR (average damage per hit 11), giving her weapon a +1 enhancement with magic weapon deals an average of ~3 damage per round for 30 rounds. Worth noting: that will kill the Shadow, while a single magic missile won't. In fact, it is literally impossible to kill a Shadow with less than two CL 3 magic missiles, and even then you'll generally need three.

[Mrark]

I have took notes of everything (wrote a whole page of them actually) but ye, don't exclude damage dealing spells... I am not that tryharder, i'd like to make some mobs explode ahhahahah

[Calthropstu]

I'm not saying they're useless, but I would almost never spend a top level spell slot on summon monster or any variety.



The best option for dealing with incorporeal monsters is still "have the melee guy hit it in the face". Consider a Shadow. A single CL 3 cast of magic missile averages 7 damage to it. Assuming your party damage dealer has a non-magic Greatsword, +3 BAB, and 16 STR (average damage per hit 11), giving her weapon a +1 enhancement with magic weapon deals an average of ~3 damage per round for 30 rounds. Worth noting: that will kill the Shadow, while a single magic missile won't. In fact, it is literally impossible to kill a Shadow with less than two CL 3 magic missiles, and even then you'll generally need three.

It's automatic damage. That 7 damage reduces the number of 3 damage hits the fighter needs by 2... which means 2 less rounds that shadow has to kill one of the party and make the situation twice as bad.
Magic missle is NEVER a useless spell (barring insurmountable magic resistance of course)

[Eldariel]

I disagree. Magic Missle is extremely useful and very very reliable. Often, it is the best option available for dealing with major threats... especially if those threats are incorporeal.


In a high-op game or when playing with high system mastery this might be true. The OP's post leads me to believe this is neither. Also I am generally of the opinion that this type of thinking tends to lead to a nuclear arms race between the player and the DM. Besides, dealing damage is fun, there's just something viscerally satisfying about tossing a fireball and watching the enemy camp explode.

Eh, Magic Missile runs the problem of just doing really low damage by 3.5 standards; there's huge HP creep between 3.5 and AD&D, but MM still has AD&D damage values. While somewhat efficient against incorporeals, it does nothing if they stick inside objects or people without giving you line of effect and even 5d4+5 averages mere 17.5 which is not enough to even take down a CR 4 Allip, let alone if it has temporary HP barrier. Even Shadow survives it on average and that's the lowest HD incorporeal; not even taking out one when you're probably looking at 8+ on level 9 is just a pain. Generally you're better off either trapping them inside force objects, firing barrages of magically enchanted stuff with Telekinesis or just trying something that can one-shot them like Disintegrate or such (though the 50% miss chance sucks). Doubly so since Disintegrate can also destroy the terrain they're hiding in enabling you to block them out. Buffing someone with Ghost Touch weapon is also efficient since auto attacks are quite good at damage. But yeah, incorporeals are a real pain in the butt. Often weeding them out entirely is just too hard and you'll just go past them; stuff like Wall of Force, Antimagic Field and company can help you there.

And vs. big bads, you're probably looking at some SR, access to spells, potential Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (many types get it naturally and there's shapeshifting) making it not only low damage but low reliability. You generally have much better actions available, though interrupting casting via. MM can be nice. But when even level 20 Wizards are looking at 200 HP, 17.5 damage is way less impressive than when Gargantuan Red Dragons are at 90.

[Cosi]

It's automatic damage. That 7 damage reduces the number of 3 damage hits the fighter needs by 2... which means 2 less rounds that shadow has to kill one of the party and make the situation twice as bad.
Magic missle is NEVER a useless spell (barring insurmountable magic resistance of course)

Except that the reason the Fighter has a chance at all is because of a spell you cast instead of magic missile. And remember, not every fight is going to be versus a Shadow. The points you lose in the fights you have with Ogres, or bands of Orcs, or 3rd level Warlocks, or almost anything that isn't "exactly a Shadow or an Allip" are going to vastly exceed what you gain in the Shadow fight.

[Calthropstu]

Eh, Magic Missile runs the problem of just doing really low damage by 3.5 standards; there's huge HP creep between 3.5 and AD&D, but MM still has AD&D damage values. While somewhat efficient against incorporeals, it does nothing if they stick inside objects or people without giving you line of effect and even 5d4+5 averages mere 17.5 which is not enough to even take down a CR 4 Allip, let alone if it has temporary HP barrier. Even Shadow survives it on average and that's the lowest HD incorporeal; not even taking out one when you're probably looking at 8+ on level 9 is just a pain. Generally you're better off either trapping them inside force objects, firing barrages of magically enchanted stuff with Telekinesis or just trying something that can one-shot them like Disintegrate or such (though the 50% miss chance sucks). Doubly so since Disintegrate can also destroy the terrain they're hiding in enabling you to block them out. Buffing someone with Ghost Touch weapon is also efficient since auto attacks are quite good at damage. But yeah, incorporeals are a real pain in the butt. Often weeding them out entirely is just too hard and you'll just go past them; stuff like Wall of Force, Antimagic Field and company can help you there.

And vs. big bads, you're probably looking at some SR, access to spells, potential Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (many types get it naturally and there's shapeshifting) making it not only low damage but low reliability. You generally have much better actions available, though interrupting casting via. MM can be nice. But when even level 20 Wizards are looking at 200 HP, 17.5 damage is way less impressive than when Gargantuan Red Dragons are at 90.

See, you are thinking in terms of "I am solo wizard and have all my spells available and will only have this one encounter today."
My experience with casters is anything but. In a recent game I ran the only reason they came out of the fight on top was over a dozen castings of magic missle from a wand when the wizard, oracle and magus had exhausted all their spells in a grueling 30 round fight. No other spell was working.
I have seen magic missle drop the mightiest opponents, whittling away at creatures who have elemental immunities and resistances and high AC.

[frogglesmash]

I disagree. Magic Missle is extremely useful and very very reliable. Often, it is the best option available for dealing with major threats... especially if those threats are incorporeal.

The main problem with MM is that it deals (as others have noted) an unimpressive amount of damage and has a fairly narrow range of applications. This means that at lower levels you're sacrificing one of your limited spell slots for something that will have limited impact on any given encounter, and at higher levels you might as well just skip your turn for all the impact MM will have. I'm not saying saying that damage spells are something to be wholly avoided, just that MM is a bad choice for that, or any other purpose.

[Cosi]

See, you are thinking in terms of "I am solo wizard and have all my spells available and will only have this one encounter today."
My experience with casters is anything but. In a recent game I ran the only reason they came out of the fight on top was over a dozen castings of magic missle from a wand when the wizard, oracle and magus had exhausted all their spells in a grueling 30 round fight. No other spell was working.
I have seen magic missle drop the mightiest opponents, whittling away at creatures who have elemental immunities and resistances and high AC.

Your argument seems to be "well, it works in my game". And perhaps it does. I certainly can't argue against that. By an argument from personal experience necessarily does not apply to the experience of other persons.

[Eldariel]

See, you are thinking in terms of "I am solo wizard and have all my spells available and will only have this one encounter today."
My experience with casters is anything but. In a recent game I ran the only reason they came out of the fight on top was over a dozen castings of magic missle from a wand when the wizard, oracle and magus had exhausted all their spells in a grueling 30 round fight. No other spell was working.
I have seen magic missle drop the mightiest opponents, whittling away at creatures who have elemental immunities and resistances and high AC.

I don't doubt your story and it's not useless except potentially against enemies with sufficiently high SR/magic immunity but usually I'd say better actions exist. It's not a bad Wand as seen in your example but generally I'd prepare higher impact spells and have it as a backup - though it's very rare indeed that an enemy would have all defenses high enough that with all your debuffs and all the defenses you can target none would work. Elemental immunities are kinda whatever unless you're preparing Fireballs and whatever but high saves, SR, touch AC and AC might indeed make it a hard target to take down if you must and want to absolutely kill it; though SoD bombardment is not bad. Even then, unless it's all innate, Dispel can knock down key immunities in items or spells for long enough to take the target down.

[Calthropstu]

Your argument seems to be "well, it works in my game". And perhaps it does. I certainly can't argue against that. By an argument from personal experience necessarily does not apply to the experience of other persons.

Oh, at low levels it's nigh useless. At higher levels, it's invaluable because it can hit anything. The reason I say it's a good spell is because it's almost never useless. It affects anything short of juju zombies, golems and the tarrasque. It never misses, unaffected by energy resistance...

A character with leadership can bring down most creatures by giving all his followers wands of magic missle.

[Eldariel]

Oh, at low levels it's nigh useless. At higher levels, it's invaluable because it can hit anything. The reason I say it's a good spell is because it's almost never useless. It affects anything short of juju zombies, golems and the tarrasque. It never misses, unaffected by energy resistance...

A character with leadership can bring down most creatures by giving all his followers wands of magic missle.

This I really doubt; every Dragon, every Outsider, every high level Cleric and Druid will have Spell Resistance and Wizards can acquire it by virtue of Shapechange, and there's also Lesser Globe of Invulnerability which grants blanket cover not to mention Quickened Shield which is solid for AC purposes anyways. There's a lot of stuff this wouldn't work against. Basically everything I'd expect to truly be a threat on high levels has some means of being highly resistant or immune to MM. And even high CL MMs can be cast with only such frequency.

For physical damage I generally prefer Greater Magic Weapon + Telekinesis. Requires beating the AC but can deal whole different levels of damage; and you can get quite competitive attack bonuses when you put your mind to it. My PF Diviner 11 was attacking at +20-+22 which was not amazing but certainly enough to hit most targets at that point. Anthrowhale pointed out that you can indeed use GMW on 50 Colossal arrows; I wastefully just enchanted 5 Colossal and 1 Gargantuan Greatsword instead (through 6 castings of GMW).

[PhantasyPen]

This I really doubt; every Dragon, every Outsider, every high level Cleric and Druid will have Spell Resistance and Wizards can acquire it by virtue of Shapechange, and there's also Lesser Globe of Invulnerability which grants blanket cover not to mention Quickened Shield which is solid for AC purposes anyways. There's a lot of stuff this wouldn't work against. Basically everything I'd expect to truly be a threat on high levels has some means of being highly resistant or immune to MM. And even high CL MMs can be cast with only such frequency.

While I won't say you're wrong, please remember this is for someone playing a wizard for the first time ever and those types of shenanigans usually only show up when the wizard abuses their magic-making privileges.

Also instead of making snide/smug replies to one another, can we focus on actually answering the OP's question?

Another favorite of mine is Mage Armor, it lasts 1 hour/caster level, which means it eventually becomes an all-day buff if cast at the right time, and the Greater version in the Spell Compendium buffs it's +4 bonus to +6. Now, depending on your DM, the Shield spell might be better, as it counters magic missile, and gives the same bonus, but to your Shield AC instead. Ultimately though, I generally prefer Mage Armor since it can be used out of combat and lasts longer.

[Eldariel]

While I won't say you're wrong, please remember this is for someone playing a wizard for the first time ever and those types of shenanigans usually only show up when the wizard abuses their magic-making privileges.

I'm hardly talking about shenanigans outside perhaps Shapechange, which is a minor point anyways (since Shield is available from level 1 and grants immunity to MM for its duration); the use of a single spell with 10 min/level duration (aptly named Spell Resistance) for Druid and Cleric, and two of the most iconic monster types in the game have it by default. I'd say Outsiders and Dragons are likely to show up regardless of what game of D&D you're playing. Thus I'd expect it be a relevant matter regardless of the player experience level.

[Calthropstu]

This I really doubt; every Dragon, every Outsider, every high level Cleric and Druid will have Spell Resistance and Wizards can acquire it by virtue of Shapechange, and there's also Lesser Globe of Invulnerability which grants blanket cover not to mention Quickened Shield which is solid for AC purposes anyways. There's a lot of stuff this wouldn't work against. Basically everything I'd expect to truly be a threat on high levels has some means of being highly resistant or immune to MM. And even high CL MMs can be cast with only such frequency.

My pfs sorcerer cast it regularly. Only once was it stopped. The only time I see characters cast shield is melee casters such as magus. Sure, a dragon or outsiders will have MR, but unless it's higher than 21 an army of 1st lvl magic missle wielders will bring it down in a single round.
One of my favorite traps I ever pulled was a nasty teleport. The party was tricked into letting someone direct their teleport via a scroll. He teleported just the lvl 15 cleric instead of the whole party into a group of 1st lvl followers wielding magic missle wands. The fight lasted 1 round.
I've just seen MM be so useful so many times to let it be claimed as "useless."
Sure, there will usually be better options, but the lower on spells you get, the more useful it will be due to its reliability.
It's too bad missile swarm never made it to pathfinder.

[PhantasyPen]

I'm hardly talking about shenanigans outside perhaps Shapechange, which is a minor point anyways (since Shield is available from level 1 and grants immunity to MM for its duration); the use of a single spell with 10 min/level duration (aptly named Spell Resistance) for Druid and Cleric, and two of the most iconic monster types in the game have it by default. I'd say Outsiders and Dragons are likely to show up regardless of what game of D&D you're playing. Thus I'd expect it be a relevant matter regardless of the player experience level.

I mostly meant throwing masses of creatures with spell resistance, and creatures with Quickened Shield at the party almost exclusively, which your post implied. The former is a problem for any spellcaster, the latter isn't something you see unless a DM is used to wizards regularly breaking their game based on my observations. I don't think we're looking for high-op solutions here, just a few simple solutions that can be mastered quickly and remain relevant throughout the entire game. Battlefield control is tricky, and sometimes requires a specific mindset to use properly, learning the best time to drop a fireball or how to strategically off an enemy with well-placed magic missiles does not. Shield is a good spell yes, but Mage Armor lasts longer, so Shield's main use is anti-Magic Missile, which again, I don't expect the OP to actually need for their first time playing a wizard unless the rest of the group are playing high-op wizards all the time, and if that was the case, I'd have expected the OP to ask for advice from their group rather than The Playground.

[Eldariel]

I mostly meant throwing masses of creatures with spell resistance, and creatures with Quickened Shield at the party almost exclusively, which your post implied. The former is a problem for any spellcaster, the latter isn't something you see unless a DM is used to wizards regularly breaking their game based on my observations. I don't think we're looking for high-op solutions here, just a few simple solutions that can be mastered quickly and remain relevant throughout the entire game. Battlefield control is tricky, and sometimes requires a specific mindset to use properly, learning the best time to drop a fireball or how to strategically off an enemy with well-placed magic missiles does not. Shield is a good spell yes, but Mage Armor lasts longer, so Shield's main use is anti-Magic Missile, which again, I don't expect the OP to actually need for their first time playing a wizard unless the rest of the group are playing high-op wizards all the time, and if that was the case, I'd have expected the OP to ask for advice from their group rather than The Playground.

Shield grants a different bonus so anyone who cares about their AC will probably want access to both. And yes, SR is annoying for everyone but particularly for repeated castings of a spell that does little damage from Wands (which generally have lower CLs or are prohibitively expensive) suffer tremendously. Further, actually many of the mainstay Wizard spells have no SR: Grease, Silent Image, Web, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Resilient Sphere, Telekinesis [Violent Thrust], Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Acid Fog, Reverse Gravity, Forcecage; Summon Monster-line, Gate, etc; buffs (Haste/Enlarge Person/Polymorph/etc.); Su abilities (Shapechange/Dragonshape & al.). You have plenty of options to bypass spell resistance. And spells that knock the enemy out in one go like Flesh to Stone/Baleful/Dominate only having to break the spell resistance once instead of repeated ones. Which also matters.

Not saying Calthropsu's experiences are not valid or that it's useless but that the drawbacks have to be kept in mind and I'd definitely mind what I'm likely to be up against. Most of the higher level creatures do have SR which has to be kept in mind when analysing high level encounters. Humanoids with class levels are different but again, divine casters stand out.

[Calthropstu]

While I won't say you're wrong, please remember this is for someone playing a wizard for the first time ever and those types of shenanigans usually only show up when the wizard abuses their magic-making privileges.

Also instead of making snide/smug replies to one another, can we focus on actually answering the OP's question?

Another favorite of mine is Mage Armor, it lasts 1 hour/caster level, which means it eventually becomes an all-day buff if cast at the right time, and the Greater version in the Spell Compendium buffs it's +4 bonus to +6. Now, depending on your DM, the Shield spell might be better, as it counters magic missile, and gives the same bonus, but to your Shield AC instead. Ultimately though, I generally prefer Mage Armor since it can be used out of combat and lasts longer.

I pefer to forgo ac increases and instead focus my efforts on not taking hits or being able to survive those hits I do take. False life, for example, at low levels will provide a better bonus than mage armor or shield (but not both combined) while ultimately mage armor and shield will eventually become useless as to hit trumps ac.
I like casting spells such as expeditious retreat, summon monster, charm person, vanish etc for first level spells, spells that give me increased options as I need them.

[emeraldstreak]

It's a common misconception Sleep and Summon Monster are standard.

[Eldariel]

I pefer to forgo ac increases and instead focus my efforts on not taking hits or being able to survive those hits I do take. False life, for example, at low levels will provide a better bonus than mage armor or shield (but not both combined) while ultimately mage armor and shield will eventually become useless as to hit trumps ac.
I like casting spells such as expeditious retreat, summon monster, charm person, vanish etc for first level spells, spells that give me increased options as I need them.

If I'm playing a higher level arcanist I generally have Shield prepared once on some level precisely because Magic Missiles interrupting spells can otherwise be pesky. But yeah, AC is a tertiary defense though Mage Armor is cheap enough to prepare that might as well; helps you ignore chaff slightly more efficiently at least and it is all day. If you do Polymorphing you can become a thing with good enough AC to matter in which case you can go above, which can make you near immune against martial enemies (but they're your least issue anyways). Still something to keep in mind.

[Endarire]

http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=394

[ATHATH]

I have took notes of everything (wrote a whole page of them actually) but ye, don't exclude damage dealing spells... I am not that tryharder, i'd like to make some mobs explode ahhahahah
Can we hook this guy up with a blaster build that has some effective rider effects on its spells (or can add said rider effects to spells that might not already have them)? Things like Born of Three Thunders, Forceful Spell, etc. (so maybe a metamagic-abuse build?).

[Quertus]

Animate Dead. It's your best friend. And so is every future corpse you encounter.

Just remember to pack lots of Onyx. Or be a Tainted Sorcerer...

[Elder_Basilisk]

On the subject of magic missile. It is a good spell within several contexts.
1. It is not good at level 1-2 without caster level buffs. At level 1-2, you don't have many spells, it does low damage, and you're better off with ray of enfeeblement, color spray, etc. However at level 3+, it is good for quite a few things and a wizard will rarely go wrong by prepping one or two.

At those levels, magic missile is a good answer to incorporeal creatures. (Yeah, magic weapon on the greatsword is better if the fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, but if the fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, or you cast that last round (from a scroll because magic weapon is a terrible spell to prep but a vital thing to have on a scroll if your party beatsticks don't have magic weapons), then magic missile let's you finish off the shadow the fighter injured last round or give the fighter a head start on the next one).

At mid levels, magic missile is also a good, low resource expenditure way to contribute in a fight that looks easy, but either is already in hand, doesn't look like it merits a big spell, or just doesn't fit the options you do have. (Every now and then you run into something where your loadout just doesn't have a good tool). Magic missile usually does something and preparing a magic missile or two is a low opportunity cost by the time you're level 7+. It's not as though summon monster 1, sleep, and color spray are going to do anything anymore.

Magic missile is also a good spell for wands and scrolls (when you're too poor to afford a wand). Being able to do 1d4+1 forever with your first level wand (later you need better wands) is a good way to extend your endurance and your party's endurance. And sometimes there are monsters that are resistant to the party's other options.

It is also a good way to disrupt enemy spellcasters. Not as good as silence but silence is second level and isn't a sor/Wis spell. But DC 10+2d4+2+clvl is a concentration check foes will fail more often than not. You don't need to worry about missing or them making the save and even if they still get the spell off, you did damage.

At higher levels, a quickened magic missile is good for getting that last bit of damage on a foe who is barely standing and at still higher levels, it is a low risk way to check for spell turning before you drop a finger of death or leaving dispel on a foe.

[Quertus]

(Yeah, magic weapon on the greatsword is better if the fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, but if the fighter doesn't have a magic weapon,

If the third level Fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, it's time to either drop* the Fighter, or drop the GM, depending on who's to blame.

* Assuming you're playing at a level of optimization above "Wizard prepares and casts spells chosen at random".


It is also a good way to disrupt enemy spellcasters. Not as good as silence but silence is second level and isn't a sor/Wis spell. But DC 10+2d4+2+clvl is a concentration check foes will fail more often than not.

I'd run it as two hits, for two concentration checks, each at DC 10+1d4+1+sl


At higher levels, a quickened magic missile is good for getting that last bit of damage on a foe who is barely standing and at still higher levels,

Ok, most of this I can see working reasonably, but a 5th level spell slot to finish off a nearly dead foe? That sounds like a really inefficient use of limited spell slots to me.


it is a low risk way to check for spell turning before you drop a finger of death or leaving dispel on a foe.

My epic level wizard, Quertus, for whom this account is named, actually has a custom 3rd level version of Magic Missile, called "Quertus' Spell Star", which he uses to, among other things, evaluate the foe's resistance to magic. Subsequently, I heartily endorse this tactic.

[Elder_Basilisk]

If the third level Fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, it's time to either drop* the Fighter, or drop the GM, depending on who's to blame.

* Assuming you're playing at a level of optimization above "Wizard prepares and casts spells chosen at random".

3rd level is where I would think magic weapon for the fighter is about a 50/50 proposition. A 3rd level fighter has enough wealth that he might have a magic weapon... Or he might have magic fullplate, a cloak of resistance and a masterwork weapon... Or he might have a non-magic adamantine/green starmetal weapon. By 4th level it's starting to be expected but I wouldn't say it's a given at 3rd.


Ok, most of this I can see working reasonably, but a 5th level spell slot to finish off a nearly dead foe? That sounds like a really inefficient use of limited spell slots to me.

It's an inefficient use of spell slots but not necessarily a bad use. If you're carrying the quickened magic missile to check for spell turning and spell resistance for example and you know that a bad guy has just a few hit points left, it may well be good play to use the quickened magic missile to finish it. Sometimes winning now is more important than conserving spell slots and quickened magic missile is an option for that. Probably not when 5th level spells are your highest level spells but when you're 11th level or 13th you may find it useful for that from time to time.

[Cosi]

At mid levels, magic missile is also a good, low resource expenditure way to contribute in a fight that looks easy, but either is already in hand, doesn't look like it merits a big spell, or just doesn't fit the options you do have.

So is Fiery Burst. If you're looking for a thing to do "just because", Fiery Burst is probably better because it doesn't run out.


Magic missile usually does something and preparing a magic missile or two is a low opportunity cost by the time you're level 7+. It's not as though summon monster 1, sleep, and color spray are going to do anything anymore.

But silent image is still totally absurd. As are utility options like charm person or identify.


And sometimes there are monsters that are resistant to the party's other options.

And sometimes monsters are resistant to magic missile. That may happen less, but if it doesn't happen it's probably a sign your DM is going easy on you.


It is also a good way to disrupt enemy spellcasters. Not as good as silence but silence is second level and isn't a sor/Wis spell. But DC 10+2d4+2+clvl is a concentration check foes will fail more often than not. You don't need to worry about missing or them making the save and even if they still get the spell off, you did damage.

Disrupting enemy casters is a sucker's game. You should be killing enemy casters. Or incapping them. Yes, those things might not work, but it's not like DC 17 + CL is all that tough to beat. By mid levels, enemies will crush that if they're taking "disrupt spellcasting" remotely seriously as a threat.


At higher levels, a quickened magic missile is good for getting that last bit of damage on a foe who is barely standing and at still higher levels, it is a low risk way to check for spell turning before you drop a finger of death or leaving dispel on a foe.

That's a 5th level spell slot. How about not?

[Calthropstu]

The best stanard spell for wizards is true creation... that way you can make a real standard out of anything you want, including precious metal trimmings. I would advise calling a creature to carry it for you because who ever heard of a mighty wizard carrying his own standard?
Alternatively, you can have an illusionary one that follows you around with high level illusion spells such as major image or programmed illusion.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It looks like the "damage sucks" brigades are out in force.


So is Fiery Burst. If you're looking for a thing to do "just because", Fiery Burst is probably better because it doesn't run out.

Fiery burst is ok if you are in a campaign that allows it (magic missile on the other hand is core). Also, if you have the feat to spare and a high level fire spell prepped. You can do all that but magic missile fills the role for all of the builds that don't go there. There are other ways to do it too (lesser orbs etc). They all have plusses and minuses but magic missile is one of the more reliable ways.



But silent image is still totally absurd. As are utility options like charm person or identify.

Wizards can walk and chew gum at the same time. Just because your 5th level wizard prepared a magic missile doesn't mean that he can't have charm person prepped, an open slot to prep identify at the end of the day if it is called for, and a scroll of silent image. (Silent image is one of those spells like magic weapon which is almost as good from a scroll as in memory).



And sometimes monsters are resistant to magic missile. That may happen less, but if it doesn't happen it's probably a sign your DM is going easy on you.

Resistance to magic missile is rather rare in the rules. Certainly rarer than resistance to fire, acid or any other given element. Anyway this is a pretty bizarre juxtaposition with the next paragraph that assumes third level wizards can routinely kill enemy spellcasters without the pesky intermediate step of dealing more damage than they have hit points. Seriously, your DM is going easy on you if magic missile works but you can just reliably kill or incapacitate enemy spellcasters? Not in any D&D setting I've been familiar with.



Disrupting enemy casters is a sucker's game. You should be killing enemy casters. Or incapping them. Yes, those things might not work, but it's not like DC 17 + CL is all that tough to beat. By mid levels, enemies will crush that if they're taking "disrupt spellcasting" remotely seriously as a threat.

You are ignoring something like the first half of the game here. Killing enemy spellcasters from full with a single spell is not generally an option (except for some specialized blaster wizards) until stone to flesh etc come on line. Phantasmal killer is an earlier save or die but it's not very good. Hold person can work but will is a good save for most spell casters, only works on humanoids, and according to some interpretations is blocked by protection from alignment/magic circle. At level 3, blindness is an option, but it's a 2nd level spell and characters will often find themselves facing battles without their best spells. Also it's not always a reliable option. Against an evil cleric for example you're generally better off disrupting the spell with magic missile. And it doesn't always shut casters down. A caster specialized in summons for example, might carry on as though nothing happened and a Pathfinder negative channeling cleric (every evil priest BBEG really) will hardly slow down.

Disrupting spellcasting is an important tactic for most wizards' arsenals-especially in the mid levels.


That's a 5th level spell slot. How about not?

Hope you can reliably save against the your own DCs. Otherwise that finger of death (or targeted greater dispel magic) you were using in rather than playing the sucker's game of disrupting spellcasting is going to be painful when the enemy turns out to have spell turning up.

[Cosi]

It looks like the "damage sucks" brigades are out in force.

No argument in this form is ever good. If you think that people are wrong, say that instead of trying to make it look like the group disagreeing with you are sheep.


Wizards can walk and chew gum at the same time. Just because your 5th level wizard prepared a magic missile doesn't mean that he can't have charm person prepped, an open slot to prep identify at the end of the day if it is called for, and a scroll of silent image. (Silent image is one of those spells like magic weapon which is almost as good from a scroll as in memory).

I mean, that is literally exactly how trade-offs work. Every time you prepare magic missile, you don't prepare silent image. Yes, you have enough slots to do both things, but if silent image is the better thing (and it very much is), you should still do that instead of magic missile. There's something to be said for variety, but you only get on the order of half a dozen slots (assuming good INT), and those are fighting with all the utility spells you could get (like silent image, charm person, disguise self, comprehend languages, or unseen servant), or the possibility of other offensive spells (color spray and sleep may not be great at mid levels, but if an average of 7 damage matters they probably do too).


Resistance to magic missile is rather rare in the rules.

That doesn't mean it should be rare in the world. There are two kinds of rope in the core rules out of hundreds of items. That doesn't mean most adventurers don't have rope. People will seek out counters to magic missile precisely because they are nominally rare.


Anyway this is a pretty bizarre juxtaposition with the next paragraph that assumes third level wizards can routinely kill enemy spellcasters without the pesky intermediate step of dealing more damage than they have hit points.

An enemy that has failed its save versus glitterdust or cloud of bewilderment is functionally dead. They're certainly not taking any additional useful actions. Once you hit 5th level you get stinking cloud, which stops people who fail their save from taking any more actions.


Hope you can reliably save against the your own DCs. Otherwise that finger of death (or targeted greater dispel magic) you were using in rather than playing the sucker's game of disrupting spellcasting is going to be painful when the enemy turns out to have spell turning up.

Or, you know, pick a spell that is good that you are personally protected against. It is possible to do that, you know.

[Elder_Basilisk]

No argument in this form is ever good. If you think that people are wrong, say that instead of trying to make it look like the group disagreeing with you are sheep.

Well then, are there damage spells you approve of?


I mean, that is literally exactly how trade-offs work. Every time you prepare magic missile, you don't prepare silent image. Yes, you have enough slots to do both things, but if silent image is the better thing (and it very much is), you should still do that instead of magic missile. There's something to be said for variety, but you only get on the order of half a dozen slots (assuming good INT), and those are fighting with all the utility spells you could get (like silent image, charm person, disguise self, comprehend languages, or unseen servant), or the possibility of other offensive spells (color spray and sleep may not be great at mid levels, but if an average of 7 damage matters they probably do too).

You seem to have a true love for silent image and to completely ignore consumables which are ideal for situationally very useful spells like comprehend languages and silent image (which have no relevant dc and are fully effective at level 1). Scrolls enable a wizard to cover the "rarely used but situationally essential" spells like comprehend languages without using their spell slots.

Since your argument is evidently that silent image is better than magic missile, so you should always prepare silent image and never magic missile (and if you have slots, prepare three silent images rather than two silent images and one magic missile, I guess I need to put forward the argument that silent image is (by you vastly) overrated. Silent image will sometimes let you create the illusion of a wall so that bad guys who are unfamiliar with the area (and don't know there isn't really a wall there) will walk by without noticing you. It will occasionally help you fool an enemy into thinking that reinforcements are on their way. But in most situations, the spell casting itself will draw attention to you and if the enemy has spellcraft, you're hosed. (The bad guys' player advocate in the dm's head argues, "I recognized the spell as silent image, doesn't that count as irrefutable evidence that the effect is an illusion so I automatically disbelieve". DMs official ruling, "sounds right.") So, it's useful when the guys you're looking to deceive don't know that you cast a spell and don't the area well enough to recognize your illusion as out of place, and you have a good, situation specific ideas that will enable you to trick them. It's easier to come up with such things against mindless foes, but "mindless" does not include the inability to make will saves or to disbelieve. Now, I can easily imagine that a creative player can come up with enough uses that it's worth preparing one silent image per day and that in some unusual campaigns (a thieves guild campaign for example), it would be worth preparing multiples. However, even the creative players will be hard pressed to find a way to regularly use more than one per day in a normal campaign. For most players, a couple scrolls will be enough to see them through to level 10.


that doesn't mean it should be rare in the world. There are two kinds of rope in the core rules out of hundreds of items. That doesn't mean most adventurers don't have rope. People will seek out counters to magic missile precisely because they are nominally rare.

So, which is it? Magic missile is so good that people will seek out counters to it? Or Magic missile is so bad that people shouldn't ever prepare it and if you see your enemies prepare it, you should be glad they didn't prepare something good?

I think there are a few obscure counters in the various splatbooks, but the core rules easy and common counters are brooch of shielding (overpriced, eats up a valuable neck slot-if your enemies use this counter, be glad they didn't spend their gold on something more useful), shield spell (useful but short duration and sor/wiz only among core classes), spell immunity (relatively high level so you probably have other spells you'll be glad they passed up immunity to to get magic missile), and lesser globe of invulnerability (which is just plain bad- an NPC who wastes an action on that rather than black tentacles is asking for a fighter to the face).

As a wizard, you have spellcraft-you'll probably be able to see and identify most of the good counters as they are cast and then you can do something else.


An enemy that has failed its save versus glitterdust or cloud of bewilderment is functionally dead. They're certainly not taking any additional useful actions. Once you hit 5th level you get stinking cloud, which stops people who fail their save from taking any more actions.

First, you're comparing second and third level spells to a first level spell. Of course they're better. But you can't count on having your best spells available to use every time you run into an enemy spellcaster. Sometimes it's the third or fourth fight of the day and you're down to the leftovers on your prepared spells list and sometimes you suspect there may be more fights so you're not willing to blow your best spells.

In any event, the spells you list are not always preferable to magic missile in the context of stopping an enemy spellcaster. I would generally think of glitterdust as wasted if you're only getting one creature and using it on a spellcaster is usually targeting their good save. That's a crapshoot where the odds should generally be against you. (Yeah, I know you can optimize so that your DCs are very high. On the other hand, if the DM is not going easy on you, I assume that your opponents will then also be optimized in order to challenge you. So their saves should scale too or they'll make up for it some other way). And even then, depending on the spell caster, they may still be able to unleash some nastiness even blind. Stinking cloud doesn't require line of sight and neither does summon monster, etc. So failing the glitterdust save is bad for the caster, but it's not necessarily game over. Magic missile offers a good chance of disrupting the spell casting for lower opportunity cost (1st level rather than 2nd level) a better chance of preserving action economy (1 action for a 55+% chance of disrupting the enemy action rather than a 30-50% chance of forcing a less optimal action) and guaranteed damage even if it doesn't disrupt the spell.

Stinking cloud and cloud of bewilderment are good but also suffer significant drawbacks-for example, they are useless against undead-and are not useful in all encounter types (in a solo encounter with restricted movement for example, the enemy can just walk out the back and hide from you while he waits out the nausea. Your party probably can't charge through the cloud so it just puts the encounter on pause until the duration expires. It's a little better in an open area where you can move around it since you might get to the bad guy while he's still nauseated but I still don't see using stinking cloud on a single monster as generally being a good move). Cloud of bewilderment also has a rather restricted range. Odds are good that you can't even target a back rank enemy spell caster without putting your point hat within range of the enemy front rank's greataxes.

More generally, your approach seems to assume that every spell you cast can and will be a home run. It's not realistic unless your DM is going easy on you. Playing save or suck with single targets will result in a lot of strikeouts as well as some home runs. And it ignores the value of a well timed base hit. Magic missile is a base hit spell. It doesn't bring the glory the way a well placed high DC glitterdust does. But it can bring a runner on third home or load the bases for someone else's home run.

(One more use: it's a cheap soft counter to mirror image in 3.5 though not Pathfinder)


Or, you know, pick a spell that is good that you are personally protected against. It is possible to do that, you know.

It is possible to use only spells that you are personally protected against but that rather limits your spell selection and some of the most common protections are limited use. Blowing out your ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic) when your targeted dispel is turned on you is a lot better than stripping away all of your buffs, but it does waste your turn and leave you vulnerable. As you introduce more splatbooks material, your defensive options increase (spell blades, etc) but as you approach theoretical optimization, presumably the enemies do too so you can expect to 1. Need a variety of attacks to get around their anticipated defenses and 2. Expect your defenses to be breached or stripped away more often. If you are confident in your finger of death because you had the cleric cast deathward on you or figured a combination of buff spells that leaves you immune to it, the fight when you might be facing spell turning is also the fight where you would expect to lose some of those buffs to the wide variety of noncore dispel effects. There is a place for using quickened spells to check for spell turning.

[ATHATH]

Guys, can we please cut down on the essay-like arguments and agree to disagree, lest we scare off the newbie?

I recommend reading Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards (http://web.archive.org/web/20150401154620/http://brilliantgameologists.com:80/boards/index.php?topic=394.0). It has some neat spell selection tips near the back, along with a bunch of useful tips.

[Cosi]

Well then, are there damage spells you approve of?

haste is good.


You seem to have a true love for silent image and to completely ignore consumables which are ideal for situationally very useful spells like comprehend languages and silent image (which have no relevant dc and are fully effective at level 1). Scrolls enable a wizard to cover the "rarely used but situationally essential" spells like comprehend languages without using their spell slots.

silent image isn't situational. It's an instant win against anything mindless, and against things that aren't mindless it's no-save lose an action and it makes you lose more than one on a failed save. And it's a utility spell. It's one of the best 1st level spells.


The bad guys' player advocate in the dm's head argues, "I recognized the spell as silent image, doesn't that count as irrefutable evidence that the effect is an illusion so I automatically disbelieve". DMs official ruling, "sounds right."

Yes, silent image is vulnerable to your DM screwing you over. But so, on some level, is everything.


So, which is it? Magic missile is so good that people will seek out counters to it? Or Magic missile is so bad that people shouldn't ever prepare it and if you see your enemies prepare it, you should be glad they didn't prepare something good?

People will counter magic missile not because one dude casting magic missile is good, but because a hundred dudes casting magic missile is one of the few ways for low level people to threaten Dragons, Demons, or even high level NPCs. It's the same reason that seeking out immunity to ability damage is good, even though casting ray of stupidity on anything that isn't an animal (or other 2 INT thing) is stupid -- tanking ten rays of stupidity will kill you if you don't proof against it.


First, you're comparing second and third level spells to a first level spell. Of course they're better. But you can't count on having your best spells available to use every time you run into an enemy spellcaster. Sometimes it's the third or fourth fight of the day and you're down to the leftovers on your prepared spells list and sometimes you suspect there may be more fights so you're not willing to blow your best spells.

Have you not heard of the 15 minute adventuring day? You should not charge into encounters when you anticipate not having top level slots open.


Stinking cloud doesn't require line of sight and neither does summon monster, etc.

stinking cloud implies either a boss encounter, or that you are 5th level and could have it yourself. If my enemy is spending their time casting summon monster, that's a win for me. The spell is very bad at doing combat things.


There is a place for using quickened spells to check for spell turning.

Sure, but there's no actual reason for that spell to be magic missile. You could take something that is actually good on its own, or a spell that is natively swift action (I'm sure there's something below 5th).

[Quertus]

haste is good.

Agreed. It's better in 3.0. Especially when you put it on your Fighter.


Have you not heard of the 15 minute adventuring day? You should not charge into encounters when you anticipate not having top level slots open.

Wow. I mean, in character, how dumb do you have to be to go into battle and risk death to yourself and/or your teammates if you don't have to, let alone do so unprepared if you don't have to? But OOC, this stance feels a little odd - kinda counter to the adventurer work ethic or something.

[Calthropstu]

Agreed. It's better in 3.0. Especially when you put it on your Fighter.



Wow. I mean, in character, how dumb do you have to be to go into battle and risk death to yourself and/or your teammates if you don't have to, let alone do so unprepared if you don't have to? But OOC, this stance feels a little odd - kinda counter to the adventurer work ethic or something.

Right, because when the demon horde attacks the city, they will only do so for 15 minutes each day... and it's ok, the doomsday device will wait for you to recover your spells for the next day.

[Cosi]

Right, because when the demon horde attacks the city, they will only do so for 15 minutes each day... and it's ok, the doomsday device will wait for you to recover your spells for the next day.

Yeah, you're right. Every single adventure is on a timer so hard that you have to press your resources to the absolute limit or fail. The tomb that has stood a thousand years is going to collapse tomorrow, so you can't possibly rest during your dungeon delve.

[Quertus]

Right, because when the demon horde attacks the city, they will only do so for 15 minutes each day... and it's ok, the doomsday device will wait for you to recover your spells for the next day.


Yeah, you're right. Every single adventure is on a timer so hard that you have to press your resources to the absolute limit or fail. The tomb that has stood a thousand years is going to collapse tomorrow, so you can't possibly rest during your dungeon delve.

Yes, there are absolutely plots that require something other than the 15-minute work day. Yes, characters who are familiar with pushing their limits will be better equipped to handle such plots. But it hardly seems realistic for those plots to be the majority of how an adventurer spends his time.

I mean, over 100 different worlds owe their continued existence to Quertus, my signature character for whom this account is named. Yet even he hasn't experienced "end of the world is right bloody now unless you stop it" as the majority of his, um, experience.

So I can't imagine a character with a more "normal" dungeon-diving experience to really relate, in character, to the necessity of pushing their limits this way.

Do you charge over the hill at the enemy when your guns are empty, or do you wait to reload first? As a general practice, one seems like folly to me.

Still, it's usually bad game play to spam high level spells needlessly, and force the 15-minute work day ethos.

So, again, the best spell is Animate Dead. Infinite endurance via tireless minionmancy. :smallwink:

[Calthropstu]

My tactic has always been toss a few spells, assess situation... melee guys can handle the rest. Go on to the next battle, toss a few spells let the melee mop up.
It WORKS. Especially if you have a planar bound infinite heal bot to fix you all up after each fight.
With about 60 spells per day, a few 5th to 7th lvl spells should be affordable, and when you run into something tough, drop some big guns. When you go to bed, you should have enough power left to defend yourself if needed. Anything more and you've pretty much wasted your power for the day.

[Coretron03]

My tactic has always been toss a few spells, assess situation... melee guys can handle the rest. Go on to the next battle, toss a few spells let the melee mop up.
It WORKS. Especially if you have a planar bound infinite heal bot to fix you all up after each fight.
With about 60 spells per day, a few 5th to 7th lvl spells should be affordable, and when you run into something tough, drop some big guns. When you go to bed, you should have enough power left to defend yourself if needed. Anything more and you've pretty much wasted your power for the day.

Well, that's practically a GOD wizards philosophy. Cast some buffs, some debuffs and a bit of battlefield control and let the BSF and the Glass Cannon finish off the encounter. I don't see what this has to do with the 15 minute workday however.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I have heard of the 15 minute adventuring day but in general I've heard it as a negative description of a non-immersive playstyle that exacerbates balance problems in the rules and which DMs and adventure writers should strive to ignore.

In my view, with a good DM, the 15 minute adventuring day should rarely be a recipe for success. It really only works in static adventures where the gargantuan dragon never leaves his 10x10 room (probably because he doesn't fit out of the door).

For overland travel/hexcrawl exploration adventures, they generally have a 2 minute workday rather than a 15 minute one since you rarely get more than one encounter per day (though some adventures' random encounter tables can change that-in Red Hand of Doom for example, there are three random encounter checks per day in the Witch wood plus the scripted encounters at the black causeway, Vraath keep, the crossroads, and skull gorge bridge. That could easily result in a day with three spread out encounters (treating Vraath keep as a single encounter) and could go up to as many as six encounters in a day).

For plot driven adventures, you are on the adventure's time table. If you face a tough day of fights and then learn that the bad guys were supposed to deliver the goods to their master at midnight in the graveyard, you could well miss your chance to stop the master if you don't call in some favors at the temple to heal up and go with whatever you have left. It's not just save the world in 24 hours plots. There are a lot of less melodramatic plots that have time tables.

For site driven adventures, you don't just get to pack it in because you're out of spells. The bad guys will either clear out because they can't take you or track you back to your camp and kill you in the night (or dispel your rope trick/magnificent mansion and kill you in the night) if you try that. There are tactics and ways to defend yourself from the bad guys tracking you down but you won't always be able to use them. In short, responsive opponents and dynamic dungeons mean that the 15 minute workday is a rarity in my experience and usually means the DM is going easy on you.

To bring it back to the original: always have spells for at least one more encounter than you think you need-including some combat spells at lower than maximum level. And always have a selection of scrolls and wands for when you have to fight but are out of spells. Dont count on always being able to dictate the pace of the adventure.

[Calthropstu]

Well, that's practically a GOD wizards philosophy. Cast some buffs, some debuffs and a bit of battlefield control and let the BSF and the Glass Cannon finish off the encounter. I don't see what this has to do with the 15 minute workday however.

The 15 minute adventuring day is STUPID. Ok, maybe the earth won't blow up. But I guarantee you that the world DOES NOT sit still waiting on you. Powerful people attract powerful enemies, and if you do a 15 minute day approach, you will lose. Every time, you will lose. You might not take a single hp of damage, yet you will lose. Unless your gm is horrendously accomodating.

But let's think about it. Wizard X is really powerful, but only shows homself for 15 minutes and then retreats to a personal sanctum. Wizard Y is equally powerful, establishes a base of operations, establishes a city and acts in its defense and upkeep, using his research to help the city.

Who accomplishes more? Obviously Wizard Y. But let's say the 2 go to war. Wizard X has garnered no respect. He does have considerable resources, but other than maybe a couple cohorts and a hundred followers and a few dozen called creatures, wizard X is alone.

Meanwhile, Wizard Y has formed numerous alliances and has the resources of entire nations that he can call on, thanks to his generous efforts to improve the lives of everyone in a huge radius with liberal use of magic.

So wizard X strikes first, probably failing to outright kill wizarx Y, but seriously damaging his city. Wizard Y retreats to his allies, forms a devastating counterattack and quickly discerns the location of Wizard X's primary base... which is promptly leveled. Meanwhile, more wizards join wizard Y in the assault on wizard X. Wizard X' planar retreat is licated, assailed and his retreat is blocked. Wizard X dies Wizard Y lives on.

All because using a 15 minute adventuring day means not forming proper alliances, not going to the aid allies when it's needed, not memorizing "sub optimal spells" which will be useful to people otside of... you.
Using a 15 minute adventuring day is like saying "**** the world, nothing important will happen."

[PhantasyPen]

... Well I think I've learned that Calthropsu and Cosi should not be allowed in the same thread... :smalleek:

[Coretron03]

... Well I think I've learned that Calthropsu and Cosi should not be allowed in the same thread... :smalleek:

Heh :smallsmile:.

The 15 minute work day wasn't supposed to be taken literally (at least, i'm pretty sure it wasn't), its just supposed to be a hyperbolic (ish) name for describing the "Use all high level spells, then rest" or "When out of spells, rest" (Depends on who you ask exactly) kind of playstyle and only be applied to adventuring, not typical play. It isn't supposed to mean "Only adventures out for 15 mins a day". Your descreption of it is rather hyperbolic, the term applied to a scenario it wasn't intended to cover (As far as I know).

Edit: And the 15 minute workday is encouraged for something such a blasting, which uses up resources inefficiently (like the suboptimal spells you mentioned) which in turn uses up resources faster, therefore encouraging resting sooner.

[tiercel]

While it’s easy to argue it’s not necessarily the best spell, a spell that is too often useful in many adventures to completely neglect?

Fireball.

Sure, it’s blasphemy, and direct damage may kinda suck generally if you’re not optimized for it, and other characters can throw damage, and throwing a fireball at like one jumped-up ogre guard is pretty sad.

That’s not the point. The point is that sometimes AoE damage is just really useful. Most adventures have at least a handful of fights that involve a large number of piddly foes, especially as catapult fodder in front of a BBEG. Sure, you could let your DPS BSF wade through them a few at a time, or you could throw battlefield control (but that’s still slowing your own advance to the BBEG). Sometimes you just need to take out the trash. Maybe there’s encounters with swarms or mobs or thirty-seven stirges. Maybe your DM is grinning about bringing up Tucker’s Kobolds; just throw fireball and listen to them burn (along with their ninety-seven stupid little traps).

I’m not saying folks need to play Fireball Mages or prioritize fireball above all 1001 Third Level Spells That Are Better Than You. But at some point, it’s a bit handy to have one around, unless your DM is addicted to only ever running Fully Optimized Small Tactical Squads (e.g. enemy “PC”-style NPC parties) in skirmish/ambush/alpha strike mode against you.

[Quertus]

I have heard of the 15 minute adventuring day but in general I've heard it as a negative description of a non-immersive playstyle

For plot driven adventures, you are on the adventure's time table. If you face a tough day of fights and then learn that the bad guys were supposed to deliver the goods to their master at midnight in the graveyard, you could well miss your chance to stop the master if you don't call in some favors at the temple to heal up and go with whatever you have left. It's not just save the world in 24 hours plots. There are a lot of less melodramatic plots that have time tables.


To bring it back to the original: always have spells for at least one more encounter than you think you need-including some combat spells at lower than maximum level. And always have a selection of scrolls and wands for when you have to fight but are out of spells. Dont count on always being able to dictate the pace of the adventure.


My tactic has always been toss a few spells, assess situation... melee guys can handle the rest. Go on to the next battle, toss a few spells let the melee mop up.
It WORKS. Especially if you have a planar bound infinite heal bot to fix you all up after each fight.


The 15 minute adventuring day is STUPID. Ok, maybe the earth won't blow up. But I guarantee you that the world DOES NOT sit still waiting on you. Powerful people attract powerful enemies,

using a 15 minute adventuring day means not forming proper alliances, not going to the aid allies when it's needed, not memorizing "sub optimal spells" which will be useful to people otside of... you.
Using a 15 minute adventuring day is like saying "**** the world, nothing important will happen."

Where to start?

When running Quertus, my tactically inept signature academia mage for whom this account is named, my process looks more like

1) assess the situation
2) if the BDFs aren't dead or requesting aid, assume they've got this.
3) if the BDFs are requesting aid, cast spell as appropriate.
4) if the monster is an unknown, cast spell / throw shuriken / etc to evaluate monster, record results and/or sketch monster.
5) go back to reading.

Because Quertus' party is hyper-competent, it works.

A more reasonable tactic might be

1) assess the situation
2) determine the most efficient method to deal with encounter, act accordingly
3) if encounter still exists, return to 1
4) evaluate spell & expendables selection, update according to latest data

But, yes, high level characters garner enemies. And "suddenly, things happen" is a thing. This is why it behooves a wise Wizard to use as few spells as possible, to always be prepared for, "suddenly, the world ends". The sad part is, this is why it's completely compellingly in character to want a 15- minute work day. This kind of "gotcha" moment causes the hatred 15- minute work day.


While it’s easy to argue it’s not necessarily the best spell, a spell that is too often useful in many adventures to completely neglect?

Fireball.

Sure, it’s blasphemy, and direct damage may kinda suck generally if you’re not optimized for it, and other characters can throw damage, and throwing a fireball at like one jumped-up ogre guard is pretty sad.

That’s not the point. The point is that sometimes AoE damage is just really useful. Most adventures have at least a handful of fights that involve a large number of piddly foes, especially as catapult fodder in front of a BBEG. Sure, you could let your DPS BSF wade through them a few at a time, or you could throw battlefield control (but that’s still slowing your own advance to the BBEG). Sometimes you just need to take out the trash. Maybe there’s encounters with swarms or mobs or thirty-seven stirges. Maybe your DM is grinning about bringing up Tucker’s Kobolds; just throw fireball and listen to them burn (along with their ninety-seven stupid little traps).

I’m not saying folks need to play Fireball Mages or prioritize fireball above all 1001 Third Level Spells That Are Better Than You. But at some point, it’s a bit handy to have one around, unless your DM is addicted to only ever running Fully Optimized Small Tactical Squads (e.g. enemy “PC”-style NPC parties) in skirmish/ambush/alpha strike mode against you.

yeah, I had a TPK one because my Wizard didn't pack Fireball. Well, my Wizard fled, but the rest of the party died. I agree, there are definitely times when it's essential to Fireball things.

[Calthropstu]

Where to start?

When running Quertus, my tactically inept signature academia mage for whom this account is named, my process looks more like

1) assess the situation
2) if the BDFs aren't dead or requesting aid, assume they've got this.
3) if the BDFs are requesting aid, cast spell as appropriate.
4) if the monster is an unknown, cast spell / throw shuriken / etc to evaluate monster, record results and/or sketch monster.
5) go back to reading.

Because Quertus' party is hyper-competent, it works.

A more reasonable tactic might be

1) assess the situation
2) determine the most efficient method to deal with encounter, act accordingly
3) if encounter still exists, return to 1
4) evaluate spell & expendables selection, update according to latest data

But, yes, high level characters garner enemies. And "suddenly, things happen" is a thing. This is why it behooves a wise Wizard to use as few spells as possible, to always be prepared for, "suddenly, the world ends". The sad part is, this is why it's completely compellingly in character to want a 15- minute work day. This kind of "gotcha" moment causes the hatred 15- minute work day.



yeah, I had a TPK one because my Wizard didn't pack Fireball. Well, my Wizard fled, but the rest of the party died. I agree, there are definitely times when it's essential to Fireball things.

The whole 15 minute work day ALLOWS "suddenly things happen" with much more frequency. A present threat acts like a deterrent to other threats. A vague "some guy MIGHT show up for 15 minutes but probably won't" won't work to deter attacks. Worse, it allows those working against you to plan around that. "Ok, we'll send a couple patses in to wreck havoc, let them get obliterated, toss in a couple waves of dragon zombies for good measure and then we are free to do whatever we want."
Vs "This guy will not stop until we're all dead. Maybe screwing with him is a bad idea."
Though, to be fair, one of each type working in concert would probably be very effective.

And yes, a mid level wizard should always prep (or have a wand of) fireball.

[Eldariel]

yeah, I had a TPK one because my Wizard didn't pack Fireball. Well, my Wizard fled, but the rest of the party died. I agree, there are definitely times when it's essential to Fireball things.

This tends to be true for any number of spells. Doesn't mean they should be prepared on any given day. These spells are what I refer to as roleplayers: they do something really well but that something doesn't need doing always.

Fireball, Cloudkill, Reverse Gravity, etc. are good examples. Good use for those empty daily slots, spells replication spells, Uncanny Forethought, Scrolls or things to prepare based on advance information.

[Calthropstu]

This tends to be true for any number of spells. Doesn't mean they should be prepared on any given day. These spells are what I refer to as roleplayers: they do something really well but that something doesn't need doing always.

Fireball, Cloudkill, Reverse Gravity, etc. are good examples. Good use for those empty daily slots, spells replication spells, Uncanny Forethought, Scrolls or things to prepare based on advance information.

Fireball is actually quite useful outside of combat too. Its long range and scaling damage make it great for long range demolition, preemptive strikes, sinking ships, clearing brush, melting snow, triggering an avalanche, great against escaping groups, targeting hiding enemies, starting large scale fires...
Plus, it's a wonderfully fun spell to give a 7 int sorcerer.

[Elder_Basilisk]

This tends to be true for any number of spells. Doesn't mean they should be prepared on any given day. These spells are what I refer to as roleplayers: they do something really well but that something doesn't need doing always.

Fireball, Cloudkill, Reverse Gravity, etc. are good examples. Good use for those empty daily slots, spells replication spells, Uncanny Forethought, Scrolls or things to prepare based on advance information.

Fireball is a spell you should prepare or uncanny forethought. When you need it you will not often have an hour to fill an empty slot. And a scroll of fireball will often not get the job done since it operates off of minimum DC (14) and may have a low caster level. If you want a scroll for that day you need area damage, pick ice storm. It's higher level but it has no save.

IMO, empty slots are for divinations, utility spells, and long duration buffs that can carry over to the next day.

[Eldariel]

Fireball is a spell you should prepare or uncanny forethought. When you need it you will not often have an hour to fill an empty slot. And a scroll of fireball will often not get the job done since it operates off of minimum DC (14) and may have a low caster level. If you want a scroll for that day you need area damage, pick ice storm. It's higher level but it has no save.

IMO, empty slots are for divinations, utility spells, and long duration buffs that can carry over to the next day.

Depends on the situation; if you find out you'll be fighting a horde of things in a while, you can take the 15 minutes to prepare Fireball. Certainly, if such a situation just gets sprung on you it's less doable though. Empty slots can be useful in a great variety of situations but not always.


Fireball is actually quite useful outside of combat too. Its long range and scaling damage make it great for long range demolition, preemptive strikes, sinking ships, clearing brush, melting snow, triggering an avalanche, great against escaping groups, targeting hiding enemies, starting large scale fires...
Plus, it's a wonderfully fun spell to give a 7 int sorcerer.

Oh certainly, it can be useful in various cases. Even there, you probably will know when you're going on a ship or in the high mountains so you can prepare the appropriate spells then (though I'd expect most D&D ships to be somewhat magically warded to endure most mundane hazards such as fire more efficiently). Most of the others are combat uses, which again depend on what you're fighting; Outsiders and spellcasters are likely to be warded against fire precisely because it's the most common type of elemental damage in the game, Rogue-types have evasion and high reflexes while warrior types probably take the full damage (unless they have elemental resistance items) but likely have a lot of HP making it rather ineffective to burn through it with Fireballs.

Most non-caster monsters are good targets as are large numbers of lower level humanoids, which again greatly depends on the campaign. Also, one thing of note is that hordes of low level things are rarely really threatening due to the speed of defensive scaling in the system so while vast AOE spells might expedite their deletion, that might not really make a difference unless you're on a minute schedule as you could effortlessly mop them up without. The spell is at its best in opening up space, causing fires and against hordes of low HP enemies who are actually threatening. Even when hitting hiding enemies, Fireball might not actually take them out and you're still stuck looking for them. If you landed a hit with something like Black Tentacles or Glitterdust, you'd know where they are or could rely on the spell to finish them off.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Most non-caster monsters are good targets as are large numbers of lower level humanoids, which again greatly depends on the campaign. Also, one thing of note is that hordes of low level things are rarely really threatening due to the speed of defensive scaling in the system so while vast AOE spells might expedite their deletion, that might not really make a difference unless you're on a minute schedule as you could effortlessly mop them up without.

This is a common misconception. Defense does not automatically scale as hard as you are implying. It takes a fair amount of gp investment to keep your AC at a level where same level opponents will miss sometimes with primaries and as often as not with secondaries. A lot of characters don't bother. Also, that investment is easier for some than others. The stereotypical wizard may well be walking around with an AC of 15 to 17 (dex plus mage armor) at 9th level or even higher. There are also glass cannon rogues, fighters, and barbarians out there who figure that because they can't make a giant's primary attack miss all the time with AC, there's just no point and they should focus on offense. Even straight out of the monster manual hordes can be very effective against such characters.

Moreover, there are a lot of options to scale the hordes' attacks both in Pathfinder and 3.5 take two examples.
1. A 3.5 orc warband with a mid level barbarian leader, a 2nd level wardrummer (bard with inspirational boost and a scroll of haste), and a priest (1st or 3rd level cleric with scrolls of recitation and mass aid). Now the mass of 1st level barbarians (elite array gives them 19 starting strength-23 when raging) are swinging at +1 BAB, +6 str, +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +2 boosted bardsong, +3 from recitation= 14 to hit for 1d12+9 damage. With mass aid and raging, they might just live through one hit and if you give them mad foam rager instead of weapon focus, they get to swing again after they've been dropped. They will wreck a mid level party hard if the party doesn't have some mass disabling/killing spells or seriously effective battlefield control. If you want a nastier fight, you could toss another low level spell caster with scrolls of mass curse of impending blades and mass snake's swiftness.

Pathfinder doesn't have recitation, inspirational boost or mass aid but does let bardsong stack with bless and reduces the cr of classed humanoids so you get twice as many 1st level barbarians or 2nd level barbarians. It also has the cavalier class to provide an orc sergeant or two (beastrider or some similar "Savage" archetype to keep it in theme) who can spread some teamwork feats to the entire orc horde. Most teamwork feats are admittedly garbage, but ones like volley fire (almost instantly adds up to +4 to hit for the entire horde) and the one that makes flanking a +4 bonus bring those attack bonuses to respectable levels quickly.

There are other ways that low hordes of weak monsters can be effective too. I remember running one of the fantastic locations adventures for a group of 10th level or so players and both me and the players being rather surprised at how dangerous the mass of derro turned out to be. they were like popcorn-each one popped out of invisibilty dropping a 1d8 sound burst on the party. They died quickly but 12d8 damage and 12 "don't roll a 1" save or be stunned rolls added up really quickly. Admittedly, that's a variant of the "bunch of 1st level wizards with magic missile" trick, but it's a little less cheesy since derro come with the ability straight from the monster manual so you can't make a derro encounter that doesn't have potential to go that way.

In short, hordes of low level foes can be effective and as the characters who can deal with them most easily, wizards ought to have some spells prepped (or at least a couple scrolls in their haversack) just in case.

[Eldariel]

This is a common misconception. Defense does not automatically scale as hard as you are implying. It takes a fair amount of gp investment to keep your AC at a level where same level opponents will miss sometimes with primaries and as often as not with secondaries. A lot of characters don't bother. Also, that investment is easier for some than others. The stereotypical wizard may well be walking around with an AC of 15 to 17 (dex plus mage armor) at 9th level or even higher. There are also glass cannon rogues, fighters, and barbarians out there who figure that because they can't make a giant's primary attack miss all the time with AC, there's just no point and they should focus on offense. Even straight out of the monster manual hordes can be very effective against such characters.

In a party with a Wizard, a Druid and a Cleric (or equivalents) with access to the Mage Armor-line, Magic Vestment, Barkskin, Magic Circle Against Alignment and company, AC can scale quite a bit on all-day/most of the day-spells alone though making the GP investment less of a point. But yeah, it's definitely true, AC doesn't always scale but it often does to a sufficient degree to make low AB enemies 20-or-done ponies. Granted, creatures with spells/spell-likes are much more frightening precisely because spells can penetrate AC/HP defenses and have devastating effects (there are level 1 spells that can KO level 14 characters in the right circumstances) but that's what I'd expect is more of an exception.


Moreover, there are a lot of options to scale the hordes' attacks both in Pathfinder and 3.5 take two examples.
1. A 3.5 orc warband with a mid level barbarian leader, a 2nd level wardrummer (bard with inspirational boost and a scroll of haste), and a priest (1st or 3rd level cleric with scrolls of recitation and mass aid). Now the mass of 1st level barbarians (elite array gives them 19 starting strength-23 when raging) are swinging at +1 BAB, +6 str, +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +2 boosted bardsong, +3 from recitation= 14 to hit for 1d12+9 damage. With mass aid and raging, they might just live through one hit and if you give them mad foam rager instead of weapon focus, they get to swing again after they've been dropped. They will wreck a mid level party hard if the party doesn't have some mass disabling/killing spells or seriously effective battlefield control. If you want a nastier fight, you could toss another low level spell caster with scrolls of mass curse of impending blades and mass snake's swiftness.

Pathfinder doesn't have recitation, inspirational boost or mass aid but does let bardsong stack with bless and reduces the cr of classed humanoids so you get twice as many 1st level barbarians or 2nd level barbarians. It also has the cavalier class to provide an orc sergeant or two (beastrider or some similar "Savage" archetype to keep it in theme) who can spread some teamwork feats to the entire orc horde. Most teamwork feats are admittedly garbage, but ones like volley fire (almost instantly adds up to +4 to hit for the entire horde) and the one that makes flanking a +4 bonus bring those attack bonuses to respectable levels quickly.

There are other ways that low hordes of weak monsters can be effective too. I remember running one of the fantastic locations adventures for a group of 10th level or so players and both me and the players being rather surprised at how dangerous the mass of derro turned out to be. they were like popcorn-each one popped out of invisibilty dropping a 1d8 sound burst on the party. They died quickly but 12d8 damage and 12 "don't roll a 1" save or be stunned rolls added up really quickly. Admittedly, that's a variant of the "bunch of 1st level wizards with magic missile" trick, but it's a little less cheesy since derro come with the ability straight from the monster manual so you can't make a derro encounter that doesn't have potential to go that way.

In short, hordes of low level foes can be effective and as the characters who can deal with them most easily, wizards ought to have some spells prepped (or at least a couple scrolls in their haversack) just in case.

Certainly, but it's always a question of the likelihood of having to fight a horde of X and the opportunity cost of taking that thingy instead of something else. The value of any given spell in any given slot is determined by the likelihood of being in circumstances where the spell shines vs. circumstances where the spell performs vs. circumstances where the spell is useless, and how important/useful/irreplaceable it is in the high performance/low performance situations. But yeah, generally having some anti-horde options is nice but unless I know I'll be fighting a horde of Hobgoblins/Orcs/whatever, I probably won't prepare Fireball (I might prepare Cloudkill due to its other utility in conjunction with traps and as a vision impairing tool as well) unless I'm high enough that the relative opportunity cost is low enough that I can afford it (and Fireball covers a niche important enough compared to the other 3rd level spells I could prepare).

And yeah, buffed hordes are frightening particularly if they have ways to buff their attack bonus. I ran RHoD with Worg Riders statted as Ranger/Fighters with Knowledge Devotion and had them have raid leader Bards (also mounted) with basic Inspire Courage (Song of the Heart + Inspirational Boost) and they were almost criminally effective until they got hit by Web robbing them of their mobility. Though I wonder if Fireball at 5d6-6d6 could've accomplished the same - their Reflex was nothing to scoff at and they had enough HP to survive even the full 21 damage boom. Would've taken multiples plus failed saves as the melee couldn't catch them otherwise.