Best Spells for Sneaking and Burglary [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Aett_Thorn

2017-10-20, 11:44 AM

For getting in/out:
Enhance Ability: Dex
Invisibility
Silence
Darkness
etc.

Levitate and Fly to get up into hard-to-reach places

Things like Suggestion to get the guard to "you need to use the bathroom, and there's obviously nobody here, so you should just go now"

Basically, there's a ton of spells to help with things like this. I mean, Fog Cloud would allow you to hide better, even if it was a giveaway that someone was there. Illusions to draw attention away from you. Sleep to knock out some low-level guards for a bit. Etc.

nickl_2000

2017-10-20, 11:49 AM

Pass without a trace - Obvious
Charm - persuade the maid to be a lookout for you
Firebolt - Set a fire on the other side of the building to get the attention elsewhere
Mage Hand - Lift the idea you are stealing from a distance
Find Familiar - Scout the location for you
Knock combined with Silence - Unlock all the doors quietly
Guidance - Help yourself with checks
Calm Emotions - Help talk your way out of a situation
Sleep - Knock out the low level NPC who spotted you
Darkvision - Helps you sneak around in the dark
Druidcraft - Snuff out the candles and torches
Grease - Helps you with your getaway, especially on stairs when you are being chased
Jump - Get around more easily
Locate Object - Find whatever it is that you are looking for faster
Any Illusion
Mending - Fix whatever it is you broke when breaking into the place
Spider Climb - Should be obvious
All wall spells - Get people to stop chasing you
Web - Same as wall spells

Last but not least, Wish - Because with it you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Armored Walrus

2017-10-20, 11:49 AM

Misty Step as a getaway spell. Dimension Door to get in and/or out. Disguise Self to look like you belong there.

The list could get pretty large unless you define your modus operandi.

Aett_Thorn

2017-10-20, 11:53 AM

And you could always just Dominate Person to have them steal it for you, and drop the item out the window into your waiting arms.

RickAllison

2017-10-20, 12:05 PM

Polymorph and Gaseous Form are also great, as is Reduce if you are Small. Being Tiny opens up a new dimension of infiltration/exfiltration possibilities. Enter that bank vault as a cockroach, load up with gold, walk out as a different cockroach.

nickl_2000

2017-10-20, 12:07 PM

Also don't forget a 2 level dip into Druid for all the mundane wild shaping. A cat can walk around pretty much anywhere without attracting much attention.

Throne12

2017-10-20, 01:23 PM

Clairvoyance: to see what on the other side of the door or wall.

dantenucci

2017-10-20, 03:19 PM

Greater Invisibility - if they can't see you, then you're a major step ahead of them

Avonar

2017-10-20, 04:19 PM

If you REALLY need to get through a door sneakily, Silence + Knock. Opened door without the booming noise.

RickAllison

2017-10-20, 04:22 PM

Greater Invisibility - if they can't see you, then you're a major step ahead of them

Useful note is that Invisibility has several advantages over Greater. Lower casting level and lasts an hour rather than a minute. Greater has the advantage of not breaking when you cast spells or attack. But what that means is that all that stealing and other non-attack, non-spell actions you take under the easier spell don't break it. Instead of rushing to handle things in a minute, you can be a proper thief.

Incidentally and off-topic, that also means that Alchemist Artificers get great mileage out of Invisibility and Sanctuary. Because that archetype's primary damage sources are neither spells nor attacks (note that grappling, shoving, and the special ammo of the Gunsmith are considered special attacks), an alchemist can toss around acid and fire without breaking those protective spells.

Mister_Squinty

2017-10-20, 04:40 PM

Im multiclassing a Rogue/Bard and I wanted to know what are the best spells to help me become the best possible Thief and Sneaky Infiltrator. Anything that helps with lockpicking and pickpocketing is also useful.

If you take Arcane Trickster you can do all sorts of sneaky fun things with your invisible Mage Hand.

Wow, that sounded dirtier than intended.

Azther

2017-10-20, 05:18 PM

Also don't forget a 2 level dip into Druid for all the mundane wild shaping. A cat can walk around pretty much anywhere without attracting much attention.

I think a 3 ways multiclass is a little too much for me but the idea is great

Slipperychicken

2017-10-20, 05:45 PM

Remove Curse, for when you inevitably get hit with cursed loot.

dantenucci

2017-10-20, 06:28 PM

Useful note is that Invisibility has several advantages over Greater. Lower casting level and lasts an hour rather than a minute. Greater has the advantage of not breaking when you cast spells or attack. But what that means is that all that stealing and other non-attack, non-spell actions you take under the easier spell don't break it. Instead of rushing to handle things in a minute, you can be a proper thief.

Very good - I can't argue with that! :-)

I haven't had a chance to read up much on Artificers yet. Thank you for prompting me to do that. I am the sole D&D DM in our group, and I am always looking for new and challenging opponents (and allies) to put in front of my players.

Dani

Azther

2017-10-20, 07:43 PM

Question: Is Sleep any good at higher levels? Can it be used to put a lonely guard to sleep if cast while hidden? Would Suggestion be a better idea? "You've been working so hard, you deserve a nap"

RickAllison

2017-10-20, 07:46 PM

Very good - I can't argue with that! :-)

I haven't had a chance to read up much on Artificers yet. Thank you for prompting me to do that. I am the sole D&D DM in our group, and I am always looking for new and challenging opponents (and allies) to put in front of my players.

Dani

If you really hate your players, you can do this with existing creatures too! The illithid Mind Blast, the mummy's Dreadful Glare (and the lord's non-attack Legendary Actions), the otyugh's Tentacle Slam (though you have to have the targets already grappled), the rust monster's Antennae, and a variety of other monster features are very useful for fights, but aren't spells or attacks. Although if you explain to your players why the demilich doesn't lose his ordinary Invisibility because Howl, Life Drain, and Vile Curse aren't attacks or spells, they might just throw the book at you :smallbiggrin:

Question: Is Sleep any good at higher levels? Can it be used to put a lonely guard to sleep if cast while hidden? Would Suggestion be a better idea? "You've been working so hard, you deserve a nap"

I mean Sleep isn't bad to have at higher levels, but it isn't useful for monsters at higher levels. But if you want to steal from a shopkeeper, it is great for shutting him down without a save if he is low enough of a level.

Azther

2017-10-20, 08:46 PM

Deleted

2017-10-20, 09:59 PM

Okay so what about this setup

Arcane Trickster 12/Lore Bard 8
19 Spells Known + 2 Magical Secrets
7 Cantrips
Caster Level 12 - 4/3/3/3/2/1

CANTRIPS
Vicious Mockery
Minor Illusion
Friends
Mage Hand
Message
Prestidigitation
Shocking Grasp

1ST LEVEL
Unseen Servant
Charm Person
Disguise Self
Find Familiar
Silent Image
Feather Fall
Jump
Sleep

2ND LEVEL
Enhance Ability
Invisibility
Levitate
Misty Step
Silence
Suggestion

3RD LEVEL
Clairvoyance
Gaseous Form

4TH LEVEL
Dimension Door
Polymorph

5TH LEVEL
Passwall

MAGICAL SECRETS
Guidance
Pass Without Trace

Your lack of Phantasmal Force is disturbing.

Nothing gets a creature out of a room like seeing a giant spider or roach. Need to get into a specific room? Having someone freak out about snakes in another part of the building works too.

Game devs even said that this spell can cause status effects (I need to find that tweet sometime).

Hell, if you wany to rob someone, cast this and say that an evil spirit is after said object and that you, a traveling priest that isn't shady at all, can purify the item for a nominal fee....

Sneaking or Burglary can be done out in the open.

Avigor

2017-10-20, 10:30 PM

Knock combined with Silence - Unlock all the doors quietly

If you REALLY need to get through a door sneakily, Silence + Knock. Opened door without the booming noise.

You both forgot an essential component to this tactic: You need Subtle Spell to pull this off due to Knock having a verbal component.

My own submission: Arcane Lock. You'd be surprised how effective slamming and Arcane Locking an exceptionally sturdy door in the path of pursuers can be, especially if you've been careful to ensure that there are no close and easy alternate routes for them to detour through, as will be the case with many fortified structures.

EDIT:
See Invisibility in case any defenses are invisible.

Dispel Magic to deal with magical defenses you can't just disable with Thieve's Tools.

Augury, Divination, and Commune to help figure out what is and isn't a good idea on a job (Ritual Caster: Cleric can get these for any class).

Magic Jar: 6th level Wizard only, but if the location is secured by True Seeing to prevent infiltration by Polymorph family spells and either they've taken steps to prevent "mind control" that doesn't work against possession (maybe the target you need to be is a 7th level Devotion Paladin or there's some sort of magic item in play that is used like an ID badge meaning you can't just drop it, especially if the DM rules they can pierce Nystul's Magic Aura) or the timeframe it will take for them to get in and out is such that an hour (per Charm Person or Dominate Monster) or whatever you can Extend it to won't be enough, this will let you get in and get the job done. Granted, this is a very niche situation where they'd basically have to simultaneously have the resources for plenty of True Seeing yet be somehow against the idea of allowing Clerics to ward the property with Hallow (and lack the resources to Wish a Hallow into existence), but still it is theoretically possible.

greenstone

2017-10-21, 09:24 PM

Deleted

2017-10-21, 10:09 PM

If we are going fpr 20th level abilities then anything involving planar travel has to be the best. Go to the astral plane, travel to the vault, travel back to Prime, steal stuff, escape via the Astral plane.

Anything worth stealing at that level will have an appropriate challenge level, it will not be that easy.

wilhelmdubdub

2017-10-21, 10:15 PM

wall of force
and mordenkainen's magnificent mansion

Easy_Lee

2017-10-21, 10:48 PM

Infiltration isn't just about getting in, but also about getting out and dealing with complications. Misty Step, Gaseous Form, and Enhance Ability are all good multi-purpose spells. With your Charisma, Disguise Self is also good to make yourself look like someone who belongs there.

Aymon

2017-10-21, 11:45 PM

Okay so what about this setup

Arcane Trickster 12/Lore Bard 8
19 Spells Known + 2 Magical Secrets
7 Cantrips
Caster Level 12 - 4/3/3/3/2/1

CANTRIPS
Vicious Mockery
Minor Illusion
Friends
Mage Hand
Message
Prestidigitation
Shocking Grasp
1ST LEVEL
Unseen Servant
Charm Person
Disguise Self
Find Familiar
Silent Image
Feather Fall
Jump
Sleep
2ND LEVEL
Enhance Ability
Invisibility
Levitate
Misty Step
Silence
Suggestion
3RD LEVEL
Clairvoyance
Gaseous Form
4TH LEVEL
Dimension Door
Polymorph
5TH LEVEL
Passwall
MAGICAL SECRETS
Guidance
Pass Without Trace

You can't get 5th level spells on this build, or anything above 2nd from the wizard list without magical secrets. I'd spend an ASI on mage initiate druid for guidance, druidcraft, and jump. Use magic secrets to get gaseous form Then add in non detection and either hypnotic pattern or tongues

Malifice

2017-10-22, 03:56 AM

Incidentally and off-topic, that also means that Alchemist Artificers get great mileage out of Invisibility and Sanctuary. Because that archetype's primary damage sources are neither spells nor attacks (note that grappling, shoving, and the special ammo of the Gunsmith are considered special attacks), an alchemist can toss around acid and fire without breaking those protective spells.

A 'special attack' is still an attack. Invisibility is broken if you cast a spell or attack (not: 'if you take the attack action', but: 'if you attack')

Pegging Artificer flasks around like hand grenades, and shooting the Gunsmiths gun, are attacks. You might not be using the 'attack action' but that's what they are.

I know the general rule is 'if there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack' but I dont see that applying when youre doing something without an attack roll, that is clearly an attack.

RickAllison

2017-10-22, 04:27 AM

A 'special attack' is still an attack. Invisibility is broken if you cast a spell or attack (not: 'if you take the attack action', but: 'if you attack')

Pegging Artificer flasks around like hand grenades, and shooting the Gunsmiths gun, are attacks. You might not be using the 'attack action' but that's what they are.

I know the general rule is 'if there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack' but I dont see that applying when youre doing something without an attack roll, that is clearly an attack.

That is the thing, and that was pointed out in the post you quoted: the alchemist's flasks are NOT special attacks. And this isn't a stylistic difference because they pointed out for the Gunsmith that his save-based blasts ARE special attacks. So the gunsmith's options break Sanctuary, but the alchemist's fire and acid do not. They aren't special attacks. For better and for worse, the flasks do not break Sanctuary just as activating the Open Hand Monk's Quivering Palm doesn't, and how a Cleric can Turn Undead and never have to worry about breaking it. The flasks aren't special attacks, they aren't attacks, and they aren't spells.

So Gunsmith? Breaks invisibility. Grappling? Breaks Invisibility. Decanter of Endless Water? Does not break Invisibility. Alchemist's fire item? Breaks Invisibility (you make an attack). Alchemist's fire feature? Does not break Invisibility. Not a special attack, or an attack, or a spell.

Malifice

2017-10-22, 05:43 AM

That is the thing, and that was pointed out in the post you quoted: the alchemist's flasks are NOT special attacks.

Yeah nah. Tossing a grenade is an attack.

You might not think it is because it doesn't use the word 'attack' in the ability description, but that's what it is. You're attacking someone.

Or perhaps you can explain to me the practical difference between tossing a bomb (from the DMG), lobbing a fireball, throwing some alchemists fire, or an Alchemist pegging his fire formula.

Same ****. Youre attacking someone. You might not be using the attack action, or the cast a spell action, but it doesn't matter. Thats not the right question to be asking yourself.

Deleted

2017-10-22, 08:39 AM

Yeah nah. Tossing a grenade is an attack.

You might not think it is because it doesn't use the word 'attack' in the ability description, but that's what it is. You're attacking someone.

Or perhaps you can explain to me the practical difference between tossing a bomb (from the DMG), lobbing a fireball, throwing some alchemists fire, or an Alchemist pegging his fire formula.

Same ****. Youre attacking someone. You might not be using the attack action, or the cast a spell action, but it doesn't matter. Thats not the right question to be asking yourself.

It's only an attack if it says it is. Literally this is the reason.

Which is why Fireball isn't an attack. Which is why dropping caltrops isn't an attack. Which is why some spells specifically differentiate between attacks and casting spells.

You're confusing your own made up rules with the rules printed on paper/put online.

Slipperychicken

2017-10-22, 08:48 AM

an alchemist can toss around acid and fire without breaking those protective spells.

Alchemist fire and acid both require attack rolls. Throwing either of them is an attack, so they would break invisibility and sanctuary.

Edit: It seems you're talking about those UA subclass abilities. Lore-wise the action is exactly the same as an alchemist fire or acid flask (character throwing something), so I'd rule them to count as attacks for the purpose of spells like invisibility or sanctuary.

Also guys, I think it's important to bear in mind that the rules-as-written are not the final word in your games. Don't waste all your time on rules-lawyering. When something doesn't smell right in the rules? Use your head, think about what the intent was, what's happening in the lore, determine whether the outcome makes sense from a lore or game-balance perspective, and make rulings as appropriate to balance the two. Rules-as-written should be, at best, a tertiary consideration after game-balance and lore-friendliness.

Malifice

2017-10-22, 09:36 AM

It's only an attack if it says it is. Literally this is the reason.

Which is why Fireball isn't an attack. Which is why dropping caltrops isn't an attack. Which is why some spells specifically differentiate between attacks and casting spells.

You're confusing your own made up rules with the rules printed on paper/put online.

Maybe in your world rules override common sense. Not in 5E.

Actually I don't want to know what happens in your World.

Throwing a grenade is making an attack. Go talk to a soldier if you don't believe me.

Deleted

2017-10-22, 12:55 PM

Maybe in your world rules override common sense. Not in 5E.

Actually I don't want to know what happens in your World.

Throwing a grenade is making an attack. Go talk to a soldier if you don't believe me.

See, again you're not using the rules in 5e. You're just making stuff up.

It doesn't matter what it's called in real life, were talking about a fantasy game that has specific rules.

Only of there is an attack roll will is it an attack, a grenade would be saving throw (probably Dex but I could see Con like Thunderwave).

Not only are you wrong by the rules of the game, the reality that the rules clearly says one thing and you are trying to deny it means that you're in the real world too.

Simce I feel bad for you, here, http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#Making_an_Attack.

Did you know that starting an athletics versus athletics contest isn't an attack? Knocking someone to the ground isn't an attack.

Varlon

2017-10-22, 06:55 PM

Did you know that starting an athletics versus athletics contest isn't an attack? Knocking someone to the ground isn't an attack.

Unfortunately you're not correct on this one; grappling or shoving do count as attacks RAW, because the rules specifically designate them as such: "you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them".

Making an attack roll is sufficient, but not necessary for being considered an attack, even if grappling/shoving are the only exceptions to this. Here's one Sage Advice that confirms this sort of ruling. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/12/does-grapplingshoving-an-enemey-creature-end-a-sanctuary-spell-cast-on-you/)

That being said, RAW is not the final word on anything. People are free to houserule various sorts of hostile actions as attacks for the purposes of breaking Sanctuary and the like. But you're not forced to do so, as Malifice seems to think. I'd pay a few dollars to see him try to make his argument at an AL table.

Deleted

2017-10-22, 07:12 PM

Unfortunately you're not correct on this one; grappling or shoving do count as attacks RAW, because the rules specifically designate them as such: "you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them".

Making an attack roll is sufficient, but not necessary for being considered an attack, even if grappling/shoving are the only exceptions to this. Here's one Sage Advice that confirms this sort of ruling. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/12/does-grapplingshoving-an-enemey-creature-end-a-sanctuary-spell-cast-on-you/)

That being said, RAW is not the final word on anything. People are free to houserule various sorts of hostile actions as attacks for the purposes of breaking Sanctuary and the like. But you're not forced to do so, as Malifice seems to think. I'd pay a few dollars to see him try to make his argument at an AL table.

Shhh, I was hoping Malifice would actually look up the the rules to disprove that and then read the rules on "Making an Attack" instead of pretending to know the rules on what an attack is.

The best way to teach someone is to get them to teach themselves in a moment of "ah ha" because then you both know that all parties read the rules.

Thunderwave breaks invisibility and sanctuary, not because it is an attack, but because of the other clauses in those spells (casting a spell on an enemy/casting a spell).

Malifice

2017-10-22, 08:44 PM

I cited the general rule re attack rolls above.

That rule only applies if there is doubt that something is an attack.

How on earth are you doubting that pegging a freaking grenade is an attack?

ImproperJustice

2017-10-22, 09:04 PM

RickAllison

2017-10-22, 09:05 PM

I cited the general rule re attack rolls above.

That rule only applies if there is doubt that something is an attack.

How on earth are you doubting that pegging a freaking grenade is an attack?

By that logic, Fireball is an attack. And it is not. There are an abundance of things which are attacks by the common sense meaning, but that aren't attacks within the game system. Why is a raven like a writing desk? Why do we continue to derail the thread over a quick comment?

Deleted

2017-10-22, 09:11 PM

What if the alchemist pours the acid flask on the lock?

Is that different than pouring an acid vial (the item) on the lock in terms of breaching invisibility?

If it is, does using Thieves Tools count as an attack against the lock?

Use an item action, not an attack.

But anyways, for reference...

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/15/is-magic-missile-an-attack/

Or more specifically...

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/806980603912388608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2017%2F0 1%2F15%2Fis-magic-missile-an-attack%2F

Malifice

2017-10-22, 09:39 PM

By that logic, Fireball is an attack. And it is not.

Fireball is a spell. Its already covered.

There are an abundance of things which are attacks by the common sense meaning, but that aren't attacks within the game system.

'System' trumps common sense?

5E is written on the basis of avoiding rules jargon, using plain english, and the DM applying common sense.

Read the rule. It says: 'If there is any doubt as to if something counts as an attack, it is an attack if it calls for an attack roll.'

Where is the doubt with an Alchemist hurling a flaming vial of liquid at someone (exactly like a grenade)? The Alchemist is clearly attacking that person. I have zero doubt this is an attack (because: common sense), so the rule of 'If you have doubt, refer to this rule' does not apply.

If I have no doubt that it is an attack, this means whether it relies on an attack roll or otherwise is irrelevant.

Deleted

2017-10-22, 09:45 PM

Fireball is a spell. Its already covered.

'System' trumps common sense?

5E is written on the basis of avoiding rules jargon, using plain english, and the DM applying common sense.

Read the rule. It says: 'If there is any doubt as to if something counts as an attack, it is an attack if it calls for an attack roll.'

Where is the doubt with an Alchemist hurling a flaming vial of liquid at someone (exactly like a grenade)? The Alchemist is clearly attacking that person. I have zero doubt this is an attack (because: common sense), so the rule of 'If you have doubt, refer to this rule' does not apply.

If I have no doubt that it is an attack, this means whether it relies on an attack roll or otherwise is irrelevant.

Jeremy Crawford says you're wrong. Chalk it up as a loss and move along.

It's sad at this point.

Unless the feature calls for an attack roll in some capacity it isn't an attack.

Edit

The closest thing we have to a grenade is Thunderwave or Shatter which are not attacks.

So pretending that an exploding grenade would be an attack is silly.

Malifice

2017-10-22, 10:06 PM

Jeremy Crawford says you're wrong.

No he doesnt.

Unless the feature calls for an attack roll in some capacity it isn't an attack.

Thats not the rule.

The rule requires doubt as to whether something is an attack for the rule to apply. I have no doubt that Alchemist flinging grenades at people is in fact an attack. Ergo wether it uses an attack roll or not, isnt relelvant.

Only an obnoxious rules lawyer would even attempt to argue otherwise.

The same guys that argue the best way to stabilise someone at negative HP in 3E is to drown them (by RAW drowing sets a creatures HP at 0, thus healing a creature with negative HP)

The closest thing we have to a grenade is Thunderwave or Shatter which are not attacks.

Nope. Check Page 268 of the DMG. Grenades.

Deleted

2017-10-22, 10:16 PM

No he doesnt.

Thats not the rule.

The rule requires doubt as to whether something is an attack for the rule to apply. I have no doubt that Alchemist flinging grenades at people is in fact an attack. Ergo wether it uses an attack roll or not, isnt relelvant.

Only an obnoxious rules lawyer would even attempt to argue otherwise.

The same guys that argue the best way to stabilise someone at negative HP in 3E is to drown them (by RAW drowing sets a creatures HP at 0, thus healing a creature with negative HP)

Nope. Check Page 268 of the DMG. Grenades.

Jeremy Crawford says your wrong.

You know, the defacto rules guy? Yeah he straight up says that without an attack roll or mention of an attack, it isn't an attack.

Thus, you're 100% wrong.

And I just at this point realized it's easier to block you to stop your special form of behavior from reaching me. I just hope others don't get decieved by your lies.

The_Hansard

2017-10-22, 10:31 PM

In the vein of this discussion I'm going to have my character swing his weapon around in front of him and walk forward and anything that gets in his way will be hit (but not attacked) 😝 😂

Deleted

2017-10-22, 10:35 PM

In the vein of this discussion I'm going to have my character swing his weapon around in front of him and walk forward and anything that gets in his way will be hit (but not attacked) 😝 😂

When you get down to it, an attack roll and a dexterity save is the same thing but backwards.

However, in the game, those two things are very distinct and different due to what can stack/combine with them.

I see your tactic much like I do the catapult spell, totally would let you target a dex save inatead of AC.

Honest Tiefling

2017-10-22, 11:00 PM

Some I don't think have been mentioned:

Message: You probably aren't working alone! Coordinate.
Animal Friendship: The poor man's druid, now hopefully available via feat or other shennigans.
Find Steed: Cross class again, but when you need to leave, you sometimes really need to leave.
Feather fall: Anything is an exit if you're prepared enough.
Identify: You grabbed it...Now do you wanna bet it's not cursed?
Dispel Magic: You have magic, and so do they. Also the reason to pick up Nondetection.
Greater Restoration: If you don't have a trickery cleric, I'd seriously consider getting SOME restorative magic for when things go sour and you've triggered a trap.
Otto's Irresistible Dance: Okay, this one is a stretch, but I really just want to see a thief who runs off when people are dancing as a calling card.

Sigreid

2017-10-22, 11:08 PM

I didn't see arcane eye. Great for a thief as an invisible scout. Magic initiate can get you a nice familiar to act as a lookout as well.

Edit: I typed magic initiate and was thinking ritual caster.

Malifice

2017-10-22, 11:45 PM

Jeremy Crawford says your wrong.

No, he doesnt.

He just reiterated the general rule. A rule that isnt applicable here, because there is no doubt that pegging a grenade at someone is making an attack.

If there was some doubt as to if throwing a grenade at someone was an attack, the general rule applies.

And I just at this point realized it's easier to block you to stop your special form of behavior from reaching me. I just hope others don't get decieved by your lies.

Someone call the wahmbulance.

JeffreyGator

2017-10-23, 01:42 AM

You probably need dispel magic and/or counterspell.

I like the guidance+ from Magic Initiate plan.

I would want more bard and possibly less AT. Bard 11 AT 9 has spell slots to level 14 and knows sixth level spells and has 2 fifth level anything spells. You also get 8 expertise if that matters to you.

Easy_Lee

2017-10-23, 07:20 AM

To clear something up:

Anything with an attack roll is an attack.
Anything that doesn't make an attack roll is only an attack if the DM at your table rules that it is.
There's a difference between the verb "to attack" and the mechanical meaning in the context of D&D. If you're talking mechanics and someone else is talking the verb, neither of you is stupid or wrong, you're just talking past each other.

Any questions?

Arkhios

2017-10-23, 08:22 AM

Easy_Lee

2017-10-23, 09:19 AM

Tired of reading through all that bickering and semantics, but here's one thing I couldn't see anyone mentioning:

Find Traps could help save your life from a sudden death, becaus traps can be very deadly and seem to be often disregarded as if there weren't any. Don't. A tricksy DM might put them up just for your inconvenience.

I'm AFB so I'm not sure if Find Traps is on either spell lists of wizard and bard, but a bard could, in theory, learn it as a Magical Secret.

The spell Find Traps is unimpressive in my opinion. As written, it has many disadvantages.

It's limited to "within line of sight," meaning your DM can argue that you couldn't see the trap. It also only senses deliberate traps - if the floor or ceiling just happen to be unstable, you're out of luck.

The nail in the coffin: you don't learn where the trap is. You learn only that one is present and, vaguely, what it does.

In short, you must guess that a trap is present in order to cast the spell, and casting the spell only confirms that a trap is present.

In my opinion, the spell should have been concentration for an hour and simply given you a warning when a trap is within range. That would make it much more useful.