A couple natural attack grapple questions

[thecrimsondawn]

Im working on a build that gets a crap ton of natural attacks, and of course, some of these include the grab special ability. Im well versed in how grapple works between players, but a couple questions came up making this guy that I need answered before I can play him.

So lets assume I have 9 tentacles for simplicity sake all with grab. One of my abilities is when you break free from a grapple, they tear at your skin causing damage, so of course I will want to grapple with as many of these as I can.
As such my questions are

1: Can you grapple with multiple limbs? I think I recall you can grapple without gaining the grapple condition yourself at a really harsh penalty(-20), but that aside, how would I go about grappling with several natural attacks at once on one person if I can at all.
2: If I can grapple one person with several natural attacks, how does a player break free from said grapple? Do they get 1 roll per turn on a grapple of their choice, is it all or nothing, or do they get a grapple roll vs all attacks currently grappling them.

UMR and Grapple say nothing one way or the other about multiple limbs grappling a single person.

[Rynjin]

You can't grapple someone multiple times at the same time.

However, what you can do is cycle your attacks.

Your attack sequence would look like this:

Attack -> Grab (Free action) -> Release (Free action)-> Repeat for as many attacks with Grab as you have.

However, this does not help you if the ability specifies that they take damage when THEY break free rather than the Grapple being ended by any means.

[thecrimsondawn]

You can't grapple someone multiple times at the same time.

However, what you can do is cycle your attacks.

Your attack sequence would look like this:

Attack -> Grab (Free action) -> Release (Free action)-> Repeat for as many attacks with Grab as you have.

However, this does not help you if the ability specifies that they take damage when THEY break free rather than the Grapple being ended by any means.

Ya that is what I thought. However I have been reading over the rules and picking at their meat to try and answer my own question, and I think I am onto something.

feats aside, I can only grapple one person at a time and I can only be grappled by one person at a time. However it seems by its wording that I can have as many (or few) limbs as I want to take part in the grapple after I succeed, so long as its the same type of limb that succeeded at the grapple. Most monsters and classes that have this option get a +2 bonus for every extra limb to state that they are helping the grapple out and that is why they get that bonus.
As such a single grapple can be assumed to have every tentacle I have in use, and as such, will causes that extra damage when they break free, but if I choose to do this, those extra limbs will be unable to do anything else, so its kinda a double edged sword, even more so if my foe can make a full attack on me.

[Rynjin]

It's doubtful that's how it works. I don't know what option you are using that gives this damage (and would appreciate a link or transcription of the text) but I'd wager it says something along the lines of "When the victim breaks free of a Grapple they take damage as if being struck by your natural attack". Using multiple limbs would not increase this damage.

More definitively, I can tell you that grappling with more than two limbs does not by default grant any additional bonuses, there is only a penalty for doing so with less than two limbs. You may be confusing the Multiple Creatures(/Aid Another) clause for Grapple with that.

Edit: Checking in on some things, are you using the Aberrant Aegis? That would change matters. They DO get an implicit (though not explicitly stated...earlier Dreamscarred Press Psionics stuff was pretty spotty on language) ability to grapple with multiple tentacles. Were that the case you COULD attach up to 4 tentacles (the max granted by the Aegis, I'm not sure where your other 5 are coming from, but there's ways), granting a +2 bonus per tentacle as stated in the feature, as well as "1d6 damage per attached tentacle when target breaks free". That would get you 4d6 when they break loose, though still n way of triggering it yourself.

[thecrimsondawn]

It's doubtful that's how it works. I don't know what option you are using that gives this damage (and would appreciate a link or transcription of the text) but I'd wager it says something along the lines of "When the victim breaks free of a Grapple they take damage as if being struck by your natural attack". Using multiple limbs would not increase this damage.

More definitively, I can tell you that grappling with more than two limbs does not by default grant any additional bonuses, there is only a penalty for doing so with less than two limbs. You may be confusing the Multiple Creatures(/Aid Another) clause for Grapple with that.

Edit: Checking in on some things, are you using the Aberrant Aegis? That would change matters. They DO get an implicit (though not explicitly stated...earlier Dreamscarred Press Psionics stuff was pretty spotty on language) ability to grapple with multiple tentacles. Were that the case you COULD attach up to 4 tentacles (the max granted by the Aegis, I'm not sure where your other 5 are coming from, but there's ways), granting a +2 bonus per tentacle as stated in the feature, as well as "1d6 damage per attached tentacle when target breaks free". That would get you 4d6 when they break loose, though still n way of triggering it yourself.

Correct, that is what I am playing. Also while it is true that there is no text anywhere that says grappling with multiple limbs gives any extra advantage, I was simply breaking down intent with some creatures getting a bonus from having more then one limb with the grab ability. There are several instances (alltho not uniform in application) of creatures with multiple limbs getting an additional bonus from each extra hand/claw/pincer/tentacle. If you look at it from a RAI point of view, that bonus would come from them helping out somehow, even tho that this is never stated.

What I am playing is an Aberrant Aegis Lasher (bloodforge) adding in Akashic Mysteries and Lords of the Wild playtest. Going into both Formless Master as well as Mongrel (bloodforge again).
Natural attacks from Aegis, from Lasher, from veils, and from martial arts, all at once. Its looking quite nasty :p

[upho]

feats aside, I can only grapple one person at a time and I can only be grappled by one person at a time.Where did you find the RAW which says you're limited to grappling only one creature at a time? I've never seen that, and would really appreciate a link.

AFAIK, you can indeed be grappled by more than one creature, each opponent grappling you adding a +2 bonus to each opponents' grapple checks IIRC.


What I am playing is an Aberrant Aegis Lasher (bloodforge) adding in Akashic Mysteries and Lords of the Wild playtest. Going into both Formless Master as well as Mongrel (bloodforge again).
Natural attacks from Aegis, from Lasher, from veils, and from martial arts, all at once. Its looking quite nasty :pThat does sound nasty... I like it! :smalltongue:

If you're going all out natural attack grappling, you might also wanna add four levels of tetori monk, Seize the Opportunity and Stance of the Thunderbrand. Allows you to immediately tie up each opponent you hit with a natural attack, as many times per round as you have AoOs. Add a level of fiendbound marauder warder for even more superior reach and you'll totally dominate the battlefield. Not very nice to the game unless you play high-op though...(Here's a detailed example build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240), and here's another using both Formless Master and Mongrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21682095&postcount=288), explaining the combo. Hopefully you'll find some useful stuff in those.)

[thecrimsondawn]

Where did you find the RAW which says you're limited to grappling only one creature at a time? I've never seen that, and would really appreciate a link.

AFAIK, you can indeed be grappled by more than one creature, each opponent grappling you adding a +2 bonus to each opponents' grapple checks IIRC.

That does sound nasty... I like it! :smalltongue:

If you're going all out natural attack grappling, you might also wanna add four levels of tetori monk, Seize the Opportunity and Stance of the Thunderbrand. Allows you to immediately tie up each opponent you hit with a natural attack, as many times per round as you have AoOs. Add a level of fiendbound marauder warder for even more superior reach and you'll totally dominate the battlefield. Not very nice to the game unless you play high-op though...(Here's a detailed example build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240), and here's another using both Formless Master and Mongrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21682095&postcount=288), explaining the combo. Hopefully you'll find some useful stuff in those.)

Sadly, our DM has fully banned multi classing, saying its broken and makes the players too strong, despite my repeated attempts of showing him just how terrifying pure builds can be (as seen above). But the DM is the DM, so I will use what I can to make what I want to play.

As for the grapple question
Multiple Creatures

Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature’s combat maneuver check.

The aid another action does not state you gain any such conditions or effects from helping. Not from AoO's not from conditions, nothing. All it does is give a +2 bonus from your aid and that aid can come in many forms. Sometimes, just your presence alone can be aid, you just need to pass that check dc.
Since under Multiple Creatures it says others then help via the aid another action, it is indirectly saying that you can not also grapple the same target, but only help a single person to grapple them - aka the controller.

[upho]

Sadly, our DM has fully banned multi classing, saying its broken and makes the players too strong, despite my repeated attempts of showing him just how terrifying pure builds can be (as seen above). But the DM is the DM, so I will use what I can to make what I want to play.That's unfortunate. Have you talked to him about using the fractional BAB and save progression alternate rules? Makes the raw numbers otherwise obtainable from multi classing less intimidating.


The aid another action does not state you gain any such conditions or effects from helping. Not from AoO's not from conditions, nothing. All it does is give a +2 bonus from your aid and that aid can come in many forms. Sometimes, just your presence alone can be aid, you just need to pass that check dc.
Since under Multiple Creatures it says others then help via the aid another action, it is indirectly saying that you can not also grapple the same target, but only help a single person to grapple them - aka the controller.Ah yes, I forgot the +2 is coming from Aid Another, and that those aiding aren't actually grappling. Thanks.

But my main question was in regards to the other claim: that one creature cannot grapple several creatures simultaneously. I'm not aware of any rules which prevent say a creature with grab and the ability to make AoOs while grappling from grappling multiple foes. AFAICT, not even a humanoid creature initiating a grapple against a second foe would take a -4 due to not having both hands free, since there's nothing in the RAW which says you have to use a hand to maintain a grapple.

So theoretically, if you could somehow initiate a thousand grapples per round, nothing actually stops you from ending up grappling a thousand foes. Or have I missed something?

[thecrimsondawn]

That's unfortunate. Have you talked to him about using the fractional BAB and save progression alternate rules? Makes the raw numbers otherwise obtainable from multi classing less intimidating.

Ah yes, I forgot the +2 is coming from Aid Another, and that those aiding aren't actually grappling. Thanks.

But my main question was in regards to the other claim: that one creature cannot grapple several creatures simultaneously. I'm not aware of any rules which prevent say a creature with grab and the ability to make AoOs while grappling from grappling multiple foes. AFAICT, not even a humanoid creature initiating a grapple against a second foe would take a -4 due to not having both hands free, since there's nothing in the RAW which says you have to use a hand to maintain a grapple.

So theoretically, if you could somehow initiate a thousand grapples per round, nothing actually stops you from ending up grappling a thousand foes. Or have I missed something?

Ya you are just missing one fine line, and that is you gain the grappled condition yourself. Once you have the grappled condition, your actions become very very limited. Also if you choose to grapple without gaining the grappled condition yourself (at -20) you are still required to use a limb to maintain that grapple.
Now there are feats to change and alter the rules on this. I dont recall what they all are, but there are style feats and grapple feats, and dont even get me started with path of war and mythic rules :p