small change to make heavy armor mastery feat viable at higher levels

[Spacehamster]

Would adding "If you are wearing a magic heavy armor the DR also applies to attacks from magical weapons"
unbalance it at all? DR/3 is no big deal at later levels but its something and would make it at least decent at
mid to late levels.

[SharkForce]

well, first off, not many things do damage with magic weapons. but sure, i think that's a perfectly acceptable change. i don't think it's a huge change, but it's fine.

now, having said that, i'm not convinced it's really all that weak. for one thing, plenty of powerful enemies will have multiple attacks, and heavy armour master reduces each hit. for another thing, if there is a problem, it is probably more than DMs stop using monsters that are not almost the same CR as the characters. this leads to a number of things that i for one consider undesirable, like dragons and demon lords becoming standard mooks, but one other thing it does is reduce the value that the heavy armour master feat should have.

recently, in another thread, someone was telling me all about how, for example, 30 skeletons are an inconsequential threat, and how you should never be facing groups like that at high level because you'll pretty much mow them down without incident. which is when i pointed out that a group of 30 skeletons with absolutely no support whatsoever, no buffs, no additional monsters, just plain ordinary skeletons straight out of the monster manual, would be dishing out about 35 damage per round to someone with 20 AC, or 70 damage per round to someone with 15 AC. for an average high level fighter that actually has 20 AC (not all will), that's something like 5-6 rounds before they're dead, all coming from a group of 1/4 CR monsters that the other person thought were completely inconsequential, to the point where abilities that substantially increase your ability to deal with such threats was considered meaningless. give that fighter heavy armour master, and now they'll survive 10-12 rounds before the skeletons finish them off. that's quite a boost.

now, i'm certainly not suggesting that at level 15 or whatever you should be fighting mostly CR 1/4 monsters. what i am pointing out is that "weak" monsters in large numbers still pose a threat, and not every level 20 encounter needs to be against a solo CR 20 monster (nor indeed should it be), and could just as easily be against a handful of mid-range CR creatures supported by a bunch of low CR creatures. a hobgoblin warlord supported by a mage NPC (race modified to hobgoblin), a couple of captains (possibly mounted on something), a dozen regular hobgoblins, a goblin boss and 40 goblin archers, are a "hard" encounter for a 4-person level 20 party, and is *far* more believable to encounter regularly than it is to come up against ancient white dragons all the time, which would actually only be a medium encounter. and in that first encounter, well.... let's just say i wouldn't consider heavy armour master "worthless" :P

[djreynolds]

Its not terrible. I like the magic armor deal, seems cool.

It definitely a luxury feat.

IMO, it falls into the category of "if I rolled very well"

[X3r4ph]

We have house ruled Heavy Armor Master so the damage reduction follows your proficiency bonus. Even with this adjustment a Barbarians rage resistance is vastly superior in our experience. But it works wonders against minions.

We have played from level 1 to 18. The only two characters that has survived this long is the barbarian and the warlock sorcadin. The sorcadin currently has damage reduction 10 against ALL damage... and the barbarian is still the toughest and most damaging character. So letting Heavy Armor Master shrugg off magical attacks is fine in my book.

[djreynolds]

We have house ruled Heavy Armor Master so the damage reduction follows your proficiency bonus. Even with this adjustment a Barbarians rage resistance is vastly superior in our experience. But it works wonders against minions.

We have played from level 1 to 18. The only two characters that has survived this long is the barbarian and the warlock sorcadin. The sorcadin currently has damage reduction 10 against ALL damage... and the barbarian is still the toughest and most damaging character. So letting Heavy Armor Master shrugg off magical attacks is fine in my book.

Now that is cool, -6 at 17th level.

[Malifice]

We have house ruled Heavy Armor Master so the damage reduction follows your proficiency bonus. Even with this adjustment a Barbarians rage resistance is vastly superior in our experience. But it works wonders against minions.

We have played from level 1 to 18. The only two characters that has survived this long is the barbarian and the warlock sorcadin. The sorcadin currently has damage reduction 10 against ALL damage... and the barbarian is still the toughest and most damaging character. So letting Heavy Armor Master shrugg off magical attacks is fine in my book.

How?

Also, I get a lot of mileage out of this feat with my Bladelock (Fiend Lock 5 - Fighter 1). The DR 3/- pairs nicely with temp HP (Fiendlock on a kill, the invocation at low levels, and Armor of Agathys) and resistance to one type of damage later on (or provided by Cleric with warding bond).

Take damage, reduce it by 3, halve it, damage comes off temp HP dealing none to you, you deal cold damage in return, hellish rebuke if BBEG.

Your turn.

A hit for 10 points of damage becomes 3 points of real damage (coming off your 15 temp HP), and deals 15 cold damage in return, as long as you still have temp HP.

Watch mooks die hitting you. Critters with low (d6/ d8) damage mulit-attacks kill themselves pretty quick wailing on you.

At 10th level (Lock 9, Fighter 1) its 25 Temp HP, and 25 damage per pop.

Although Im thinking Lock 5/ Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 13 (or 6/3/11). Waiting to see how they've worded Eldritch smite and a few other invocations in XG.

[X3r4ph]

Hombrew item.


Slithering tendrils of green smoke spill from the bottom of this flayed black leather cloak.
The cloak itself seems indestructible and gives the wielder a +1 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to strength and constitution saving throws.
When the wearer takes damage, green symbols glow, and the cloak immediately, wraps around the wearer and hardens to ward off the blow, granting damage reduction equal to double the wearer’s proficiency bonus.
However, as the very fabric becomes harder than the strongest adamantine, the wearer becomes restrained, until the end of his next turn.
An attempt to remove the cloak is practically impossible. It requires a creature with a strength score of at least 24 to unclasp it.
However, it can easily be removed in an antimagic field of with the wish spell.


Well. It was stronger than I remembered. Bear in mind that the sorcadin has Eldritch Blast and Mystic Step. So the restrained condition isn't such a big deal.

[Malifice]

Hombrew item.


Slithering tendrils of green smoke spill from the bottom of this flayed black leather cloak.
The cloak itself seems indestructible and gives the wielder a +1 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to strength and constitution saving throws.
When the wearer takes damage, green symbols glow, and the cloak immediately, wraps around the wearer and hardens to ward off the blow, granting damage reduction equal to double the wearer’s proficiency bonus.
However, as the very fabric becomes harder than the strongest adamantine, the wearer becomes restrained, until the end of his next turn.
An attempt to remove the cloak is practically impossible. It requires a creature with a strength score of at least 24 to unclasp it.
However, it can easily be removed in an antimagic field of with the wish spell.


Well. It was stronger than I remembered. Bear in mind that the sorcadin has Eldritch Blast and Mystic Step. So the restrained condition isn't such a big deal.

Disadvantage on attack rolls sucks.

[X3r4ph]

You are absolutely right, and I apologize for the confusion. Right now we have removed that from the condition. He has had the item for so many levels now and we houserule constantly to keep balance. I have forgotten most of how it worked half a year ago.

Right now his speed becomed zero, he automatically fails dex saves, and he gains the damage reduction. I think. :) i am not the DM. I just know that that amount of damage reduction isn't significant compared to the power of the Frenzied Berserker 14/ Revised Spell-less Ranger Hunter 4 on the team.

[Malifice]

You are absolutely right, and I apologize for the confusion. Right now we have removed that from the condition. He has had the item for so many levels now and we houserule constantly to keep balance. I have forgotten most of how it worked half a year ago.

Doesnt sound balanced at all.

An item that grants a bonus to AC nd saves, and DR = to double level.

And its only drawback... isnt a drawback?


I just know that that amount of damage reduction isn't significant compared to the power of the Frenzied Berserker 14/ Revised Spell-less Ranger Hunter 4 on the team.

I highly doubt that.

How many encounters do you get per long rest (on average) may I ask?

[X3r4ph]

How many encounters do you get per long rest (on average) may I ask?

Everything from 2 - 6 encounters per long rest.

On paper it's very imbalanced and perhaps it only works with our playstyle. I am not saying that all heavy armor dudes should have DR 12/- ... what I am saying is that Heavy Armor Mastery could easily follow your Proficiency, if You feel like it, and work against magical attacks... especially if you have a barbarian in your group.

[Citan]

We have house ruled Heavy Armor Master so the damage reduction follows your proficiency bonus. Even with this adjustment a Barbarians rage resistance is vastly superior in our experience. But it works wonders against minions.


This is exactly what I was gonna suggest.
Seems coherent and more balanced overall (a tad less useful at first, more powerful at end, still won't make you invincible if you behave stupidly).

[Vaz]

Perhaps ask them what feat they'd prefer instead of such a trap and give them the benefits of that feat as well.

[Seclora]

Would adding "If you are wearing a magic heavy armor the DR also applies to attacks from magical weapons"
unbalance it at all? DR/3 is no big deal at later levels but its something and would make it at least decent at
mid to late levels.

For ease of use, I actually just have it apply to all attacks. subtracting 3 damage from everything is almost nothing from Dragon's Breath or a high level spell, but outright shuts down a lot of attacks from Goblin archers or Kobold Slingers.

For your suggestion though, I would say that is totally balanced. It makes the decision to invest in the better armor more valuable for a character who is clearly invested in being well defended already.

[MrStabby]

It is a pretty good feat in my experience.

Everyone in any authority will probably have some lower level minions with them - necromancers with skeletal servants, police officers with newer recruits.. Almost always I have some low level people in significant fights. As pointed out even higher level monsters get multiple attacks - including legendary actions. I have found you need to get up to pretty high levels before it is better than toughness feat.

[Malifice]

For ease of use, I actually just have it apply to all attacks. subtracting 3 damage from everything is almost nothing from Dragon's Breath or a high level spell, but outright shuts down a lot of attacks from Goblin archers or Kobold Slingers.

Its already a strong feat.

Saving 3 damage from each incoming B, P and S attack is pretty huge.

Over the course of your [6 encounter/ 2 short rest] adventuring day, thats a ton of saved HP. Its more than you get from the Tough feat that grants +2 HP/ level.

Tough at 10th level is what... 20 extra HP? HAM at the same level will save you over 60 HP over the course of your standard adventuring day, presuming you get hit around 20 times in 6 encounters (3 attacks hit you per encounter).

Dont forget HAM also grants +1 to Strength as well.

[SharkForce]

Its already a strong feat.

Saving 3 damage from each incoming B, P and S attack is pretty huge.

Over the course of your [6 encounter/ 2 short rest] adventuring day, thats a ton of saved HP. Its more than you get from the Tough feat that grants +2 HP/ level.

Tough at 10th level is what... 20 extra HP? HAM at the same level will save you over 60 HP over the course of your standard adventuring day, presuming you get hit around 20 times in 6 encounters (3 attacks hit you per encounter).

Dont forget HAM also grants +1 to Strength as well.

this probably does a better job of expressing it than i did. all you need is to get hit 7 times in a day, and it is already more valuable than tough with just half the feat being counted.

but seriously, this gets greatly enhanced when your DM appropriately includes not just CR 15 monsters at level 15 as solo encounters, but also CR 1-3 creatures, and yes, even CR 1/8 or 1/4 creatures, to supplement. play around with the kobold fight club encounter generator sometime, just generate some random encounters;

some sample random medium encounters for a party of 4 level 10 characters:

5 giant hyenas and a chuul.
3 shadow mastiff alphas, 2 vampiric ixitxachitl, and a yeti.
1 couatl and 5 guardian portraits.
1 flameskull and 2 giant ice toads.

not that these really make sensible encounters (i'm sure there are some hypothetical reasons why those things might be in those groups, but it would be fairly unlikely to encounter that on a regular basis), but just to show that yeah, the PCs are level 10... but that doesn't mean every time you want a medium encounter, you only consider stuff between CR 8 and CR 11 and put one of them in there. with 5 giant hyenas in the mix, i wouldn't be surprised if you got more than 6 hits on you in that single fight if you're up front tanking, meaning the feat would already have paid for itself.

[Honest Tiefling]

We have house ruled Heavy Armor Master so the damage reduction follows your proficiency bonus. Even with this adjustment a Barbarians rage resistance is vastly superior in our experience. But it works wonders against minions.

I like this. Permission to steal?

[Sigreid]

Just want to point out that a champion fighter who has achieved the survivor feature and has heavy armor master is all on his own a credible threat to an ARMY, provided he's not a total moron. HAM+Regeneration+High AC+ enough sense to seek cover from archers is pretty incredible. In that situation I don't think even a barbarian will out do him.

[Seclora]

Its already a strong feat.

Saving 3 damage from each incoming B, P and S attack is pretty huge.

Over the course of your [6 encounter/ 2 short rest] adventuring day, thats a ton of saved HP. Its more than you get from the Tough feat that grants +2 HP/ level.

Tough at 10th level is what... 20 extra HP? HAM at the same level will save you over 60 HP over the course of your standard adventuring day, presuming you get hit around 20 times in 6 encounters (3 attacks hit you per encounter).

Dont forget HAM also grants +1 to Strength as well.

Agreed, It's a very strong feat. If I were playing with a party of optimizers, I'd limit it to non-magical BPS, although I agree with OP's houserule for magical BPS with magic armor. With a party that sometimes needs to be reminded that they have spells, I don't mind so much. Devoting too much effort to rules enforcement would detract from our ability to enjoy the game, so I let it slide.

[X3r4ph]

I like this. Permission to steal?

No permission needed. :) glad you like it.

[X3r4ph]

Agreed, It's a very strong feat. If I were playing with a party of optimizers, I'd limit it to non-magical BPS, although I agree with OP's houserule for magical BPS with magic armor.

Funny. I have the complete opposite stance. If you are playing with a group of optimizers. Stone Sorcadins, Bearbarians, Bladesinger Mystics etc. I would very much boozt this feat so the Heavy Armor fighter has a niche. Remember that killing you enemy fast is usually the best tactic and PAM, GWM and Sentinel is usually top picks for this. So why would anyone take HAM when they can destroy the game with those other feats? I say boost HAM. Especially if you are plying with optimizers.

[DarkKnightJin]

This is exactly what I was gonna suggest.
Seems coherent and more balanced overall (a tad less useful at first, more powerful at end, still won't make you invincible if you behave stupidly).

It's now a scaling feat, and who doesn't like things that scale as they get stronger?
And honestly, by the time you're getting the DR of 5 or 6, it won't feel super strong. Sure, you can shrug off the adds a bit more easily, but the big bad is still gonna put the hurt on ya.
But, being able to sorta ignore the small mobs around him is what a Tank is supposed to do, right?

I'd consider picking up HAM if it scaled with your Prof Bonus. And worked on all PBS damage, instead of just non-magical.

[Malifice]

It's now a scaling feat, and who doesn't like things that scale as they get stronger?
And honestly, by the time you're getting the DR of 5 or 6, it won't feel super strong. Sure, you can shrug off the adds a bit more easily, but the big bad is still gonna put the hurt on ya.
But, being able to sorta ignore the small mobs around him is what a Tank is supposed to do, right?

I'd consider picking up HAM if it scaled with your Prof Bonus. And worked on all PBS damage, instead of just non-magical.

After you've been hit 7 times between long rests at 20th level (saved 42 points of damage), you're ahead of a PC that got the Tough feat (+40 HP).

So after like 3-4 rounds of combat youre ahead, and it gets better from there.

And thats before the +1 Strength kicks in.

[Citan]

After you've been hit 7 times between long rests at 20th level (saved 42 points of damage), you're ahead of a PC that got the Tough feat (+40 HP).

So after like 3-4 rounds of combat youre ahead, and it gets better from there.

And thats before the +1 Strength kicks in.
I don't understand people who compare Tough with Heavy Armor Master, when those are very different feats.

HAM
- requires Heavy Armor proficiency (not for everybody).
- flat damage.
- only works on non-magical physical damage.

Tough
- no requirement.
- scalable gain.
- works on every kind of damage.
- also useful against HP-crippling effects.

So certainly HAM makes a big difference in the long run in terms of resilience, provided you indeed stay into melee.
But it won't make any significant difference against single big hits, which tend to become the norm at high levels. It won't help you either against any magical damage.
Whereas Tough may make the decisive difference between surviving or being downed when enemies act smart or luck favor their side (critical hit, AOE with a fail on your part).

Otherwise said, HAM is great essentially on people who can get regenerative HP or specifically built to aggro weak hordes. Whereas Tough is equally great for any character that takes it. One is a niche feat, but a great one at that, the other is a general cushion feat. Nothing to compare here.

[Malifice]

I don't understand people who compare Tough with Heavy Armor Master, when those are very different feats.

HAM
- requires Heavy Armor proficiency (not for everybody).
- flat damage.
- only works on non-magical physical damage.

Tough
- no requirement.
- scalable gain.
- works on every kind of damage.
- also useful against HP-crippling effects.

So certainly HAM makes a big difference in the long run in terms of resilience, provided you indeed stay into melee.
But it won't make any significant difference against single big hits, which tend to become the norm at high levels. It won't help you either against any magical damage.
Whereas Tough may make the decisive difference between surviving or being downed when enemies act smart or luck favor their side (critical hit, AOE with a fail on your part).

Otherwise said, HAM is great essentially on people who can get regenerative HP or specifically built to aggro weak hordes. Whereas Tough is equally great for any character that takes it. One is a niche feat, but a great one at that, the other is a general cushion feat. Nothing to compare here.

Dude; few monsers have the 'magic weapons' trait. The most common types of damage in the game are S, B and P.

It doesnt lose steam late levels because magic weapons are everywhere (unless you're running that kind of game where everyone is packing a magic weapon, or in outliers like Drow centric games). It loses steam because 3 damage stopped at low level feels a lot more (and arguably is more context) than 3 damage stopped at 15th level.

I have the feat, and over the course of a standard 6 encounter adventuring day, it saves around 54-75 damage per long rest (3-5 or so hits per combat). For a low to mid level PC, that's a huge buff.

It'll save the same amount at high level, I just wont notice it as much because thats not as much of a benefit relative to my now (higher) HP.

It still kicks the ass of the Tough feat which only grants +40 HP (and doesnt also boost strength)

[X3r4ph]

Sure it's more powerful than Tough. Tough is what you pick when Strength AND Constitution is maxed, and you already have PAM, GWM, HAM and Sentinel. And I am speaking from the perspective of a Fighter who only needs two ASIs maxed.

As a Cleric, or some other class that should max 3 ASIs, Tough becomes even more worthless. Tough on a Paladin?

Actually. When does that feat ever make sense? Rather compare it to one of the other big ones. Like GWM or PAM.

[Citan]

Dude; few monsers have the 'magic weapons' trait. The most common types of damage in the game are S, B and P.

It doesnt lose steam late levels because magic weapons are everywhere (unless you're running that kind of game where everyone is packing a magic weapon, or in outliers like Drow centric games). It loses steam because 3 damage stopped at low level feels a lot more (and arguably is more context) than 3 damage stopped at 15th level.

I have the feat, and over the course of a standard 6 encounter adventuring day, it saves around 54-75 damage per long rest (3-5 or so hits per combat). For a low to mid level PC, that's a huge buff.

It'll save the same amount at high level, I just wont notice it as much because thats not as much of a benefit relative to my now (higher) HP.

It still kicks the ass of the Tough feat which only grants +40 HP (and doesnt also boost strength)
"Dude", it's funny how as usual you don't even take the time to read what people say because you feel (without reason, plus it's ridiculous) personally attacked in your opinion. Which is extremely stupid in fact the more I think about it, because I never said that HAM is a bad feat, I said that comparing it to Tough to say that one is better than the other is meaningless since they don't answer the same use-cases.
But anyways, since you want it...

Where did I speak about "monsters having magical weapons"? That's right, nowhere.
I spoke of criticals, and AOE, and more generally all magical damage wherever it comes from.

Let's take some practical examples...
Simple example, characters level 10, both Champion Fighter, one with Tough, one with HAM, both having 14 CON (ASI spent on max STR and GWM), and average HP each time, and same equipment.

Both should have 10+2+9*(6+2) right? So both have base HP = 12+72 = 84 HP. Except one has 20 more HP, so 104.
At that level, encountering casters should start to feel common.
Fireball? Average damage on a failed save for 8d6 = 8*3.5= 28, maximum can be 48. And a STR Fighter usually has low DEX and no proficiency, so risk of failing is high.
HAM won't help at all here, while Tough means you can brush off most of one Fireball.
If you face more powerful casters, you may even face some Chain Lightning (average 45, max 80) or Disintegrate (average 75, max 100).

There are also many creatures with nasty effects: without stretching to get rare creatures such as Yochlol (stumbled upon it while browsing, never faced it ^^) which most damage is poison, it's easy to find many others for which HAM won't be any help:
- Barbed Devil and its ranged flame attack,
- Bearded Devil with increased auto-damage on hit,
- Vampire that inflict necrotic damage and HP reduction,
- Ghosts which deal pure necrotic damage,
Etc. Even a simple Wright could be deadly at low level. :)

There is also the case of Dragons. Even a Young Black Dragon (CR 7) can unleash a breath with average damage of ~50 and maximum damage of 88.

Let's take an example at lower level, so level 6 (HAM HP: 52, Tough HP: 64), when you are tasked with defeating a (small) group led by one or two Hill Giants.
Hill Giant has +8 against 18 AC so need 10 or critical, a bit more than 55% chance to hit, has multiattack, deals 18 average or up to 29 per hit...
HAM would be downed in 52/(18-3) = 3.4 hits if average.
Tough would downed in 64/18 = 3.5 hits with average damage.
So if Giant rolls average, difference is so negligible in "speed to be downed" that HAM is better here, since the 3 HP reduction as always guaranteed.
Now let's say the Giant rolls lucky on his damage roll, and got 21 and 27.
HAM is now down to 52-(21-3)-(27-3)=52-42=10 HP.
Tough is now down to 64-(21+27)=14 HP.

And what if Giant rolled extra lucky and got a crit on the first, for a single attack dealing 34 damage? HAM is down, while Tough barely survived.

Now let's push towards the other end and say your level 20 party faces the dreaded Pit Fiend that has been harassing someone else's party (confer a thread of some weeks ago ;)).
His attacks are all magical for an average of 68 (not accounting for 21 poison each turn) or maximum of 114 damage in a single turn, and he can cast Fireball at will.
At level 20, provided you spend, from remaining ASIs, at least one on Resilient: Wisdom and one on bumping CON by two...
HAM's HP: 10+3+19*(6+3) = 13+19*9 = 20*9+4 = 184.
Tough HP = same + 40 = 224.
With average damage, number of turns before Pit Fiend downing the Fighter...
HAM: 2.7.
Tough: 3.2.

See the difference?
Obviously HAM is great to brush off damage, and gives much benefit over long runs. But it comes with two big requirements (being proficient in heavy armor AND wearing it), and won't help in many situations, whereas that extra bit of Tough, that everyone can take, will make a real difference only a few times, but a decisive, life-changing difference.

Now, give me a STR-based Champion Fighter, with a Cleric pal that is ready to buff me with Warding Bond and maybe Aid for any big fight... And I'll definitely pick HAM, no questions asked.

Give me the same Fighter, without anyone able to provide me resistance against non-physical damage? I'll probably pick Tough. Same if I know we are gonna be in a magic-heavy campaign, or an undead-heavy campaign.

Give me nearly the same Fighter, but Eldricht Knight instead of Champion? I'll probably pick HAM and count on Absorb Elements or a later Shield Master if S&B to get through Elemental Damage.

Give me an Abjurer Wizard with all armor proficiencies thanks to Fighter dip? I'll take Tough over HAM any day (although I may be put priority on Shield Master over both to be honest, unless I'm sure I'll survive until level 14 whatever happens), because it's much better to start with 14 DEX and 16 in CON + WIS for just the loss of 1 AC by wearing "only" medium armor.
Because if I'm taking more than one or two instances of physical damage per encounter, then I'm doing something wrong anyways.

Give me a STR Arcane Trickster Rogue that dipped into Fighter for Constitution, Fighting Style and better armor? I'll never take HAM simply because it's useless on a class which has the potentially best defense, aka "hidden so not targetable".

Give me a Paladin? Hey, I may decide to take HAM if I want to make a tank, counting on Aura of Protection against magic. Tough would probably never occur to me simply because my priority on Paladins defense-wise is Shield Master (my taste has trouble with GWM Paladins in the first place).

TL;DR It's meaningless to say that HAM is better than Tough because they behave differently to answer different use-cases from each other.

[Seclora]

Funny. I have the complete opposite stance. If you are playing with a group of optimizers. Stone Sorcadins, Bearbarians, Bladesinger Mystics etc. I would very much boozt this feat so the Heavy Armor fighter has a niche. Remember that killing you enemy fast is usually the best tactic and PAM, GWM and Sentinel is usually top picks for this. So why would anyone take HAM when they can destroy the game with those other feats? I say boost HAM. Especially if you are plying with optimizers.
I don't mean optimizers, the ones who comb forums for the best builds; I mean optimizers, people who try to find the best way to accomplish a given goal. Not all of them are very good at it, and I know several who consider surviving damage more important than surviving combat.
It's more a matter of playing the rules as written against people who are going to try and rules lawyer me and playing the rules as intended with people who are just trying to make a character who is a frontline combatant and thought this feat fit better than Toughness.

[SharkForce]

it isn't meaningless to say that HAM is better than tough. yes, HAM is not for everyone (in particular, it is not for people who don't have heavy armour). so what. shield master isn't for monks, polearm master isn't good for people that can't use polearms or quarterstaves, and great weapon master is not good for rogues. that doesn't mean those feats are bad, it just means that they're good for people that can use them.

HAM is good for people that can use it if they're at all likely to be on the front lines. it will most likely pay for itself over the course of most adventuring days several times over. no, it doesn't reduce the damage from a fireball or a dragon's breath attack, but it absolutely does help you survive those things (if you can use it) by allowing you to have taken less damage earlier in the day, and thus having more hit points remaining (unless of course every adventuring day for you at level 15 consists of waking up, fighting a single solo CR 18-20 monster, and then going to bed, in which case i suspect the feat being less valuable is probably far down on the list of problems your playstyle is causing). of course it isn't good for people that can't use it... no feat is.

the feat does not really need a boost. it is a good feat for people that can use it. it doesn't need to be any better than that.

[Malifice]

"Dude", it's funny how as usual you don't even take the time to read what people say because you feel (without reason, plus it's ridiculous) personally attacked in your opinion. Which is extremely stupid in fact the more I think about it, because I never said that HAM is a bad feat, I said that comparing it to Tough to say that one is better than the other is meaningless since they don't answer the same use-cases.
But anyways, since you want it...

Where did I speak about "monsters having magical weapons"? That's right, nowhere.
I spoke of criticals, and AOE, and more generally all magical damage wherever it comes from.

Let's take some practical examples...
Simple example, characters level 10, both Champion Fighter, one with Tough, one with HAM, both having 14 CON (ASI spent on max STR and GWM), and average HP each time, and same equipment.

Both should have 10+2+9*(6+2) right? So both have base HP = 12+72 = 84 HP. Except one has 20 more HP, so 104.
At that level, encountering casters should start to feel common.
Fireball? Average damage on a failed save for 8d6 = 8*3.5= 28, maximum can be 48. And a STR Fighter usually has low DEX and no proficiency, so risk of failing is high.
HAM won't help at all here, while Tough means you can brush off most of one Fireball.
If you face more powerful casters, you may even face some Chain Lightning (average 45, max 80) or Disintegrate (average 75, max 100).

There are also many creatures with nasty effects: without stretching to get rare creatures such as Yochlol (stumbled upon it while browsing, never faced it ^^) which most damage is poison, it's easy to find many others for which HAM won't be any help:
- Barbed Devil and its ranged flame attack,
- Bearded Devil with increased auto-damage on hit,
- Vampire that inflict necrotic damage and HP reduction,
- Ghosts which deal pure necrotic damage,
Etc. Even a simple Wright could be deadly at low level. :)

There is also the case of Dragons. Even a Young Black Dragon (CR 7) can unleash a breath with average damage of ~50 and maximum damage of 88.

Let's take an example at lower level, so level 6 (HAM HP: 52, Tough HP: 64), when you are tasked with defeating a (small) group led by one or two Hill Giants.
Hill Giant has +8 against 18 AC so need 10 or critical, a bit more than 55% chance to hit, has multiattack, deals 18 average or up to 29 per hit...
HAM would be downed in 52/(18-3) = 3.4 hits if average.
Tough would downed in 64/18 = 3.5 hits with average damage.
So if Giant rolls average, difference is so negligible in "speed to be downed" that HAM is better here, since the 3 HP reduction as always guaranteed.
Now let's say the Giant rolls lucky on his damage roll, and got 21 and 27.
HAM is now down to 52-(21-3)-(27-3)=52-42=10 HP.
Tough is now down to 64-(21+27)=14 HP.

And what if Giant rolled extra lucky and got a crit on the first, for a single attack dealing 34 damage? HAM is down, while Tough barely survived.

Now let's push towards the other end and say your level 20 party faces the dreaded Pit Fiend that has been harassing someone else's party (confer a thread of some weeks ago ;)).
His attacks are all magical for an average of 68 (not accounting for 21 poison each turn) or maximum of 114 damage in a single turn, and he can cast Fireball at will.
At level 20, provided you spend, from remaining ASIs, at least one on Resilient: Wisdom and one on bumping CON by two...
HAM's HP: 10+3+19*(6+3) = 13+19*9 = 20*9+4 = 184.
Tough HP = same + 40 = 224.
With average damage, number of turns before Pit Fiend downing the Fighter...
HAM: 2.7.
Tough: 3.2.

See the difference?
Obviously HAM is great to brush off damage, and gives much benefit over long runs. But it comes with two big requirements (being proficient in heavy armor AND wearing it), and won't help in many situations, whereas that extra bit of Tough, that everyone can take, will make a real difference only a few times, but a decisive, life-changing difference.

Now, give me a STR-based Champion Fighter, with a Cleric pal that is ready to buff me with Warding Bond and maybe Aid for any big fight... And I'll definitely pick HAM, no questions asked.

Give me the same Fighter, without anyone able to provide me resistance against non-physical damage? I'll probably pick Tough. Same if I know we are gonna be in a magic-heavy campaign, or an undead-heavy campaign.

Give me nearly the same Fighter, but Eldricht Knight instead of Champion? I'll probably pick HAM and count on Absorb Elements or a later Shield Master if S&B to get through Elemental Damage.

Give me an Abjurer Wizard with all armor proficiencies thanks to Fighter dip? I'll take Tough over HAM any day (although I may be put priority on Shield Master over both to be honest, unless I'm sure I'll survive until level 14 whatever happens), because it's much better to start with 14 DEX and 16 in CON + WIS for just the loss of 1 AC by wearing "only" medium armor.
Because if I'm taking more than one or two instances of physical damage per encounter, then I'm doing something wrong anyways.

Give me a STR Arcane Trickster Rogue that dipped into Fighter for Constitution, Fighting Style and better armor? I'll never take HAM simply because it's useless on a class which has the potentially best defense, aka "hidden so not targetable".

Give me a Paladin? Hey, I may decide to take HAM if I want to make a tank, counting on Aura of Protection against magic. Tough would probably never occur to me simply because my priority on Paladins defense-wise is Shield Master (my taste has trouble with GWM Paladins in the first place).

TL;DR It's meaningless to say that HAM is better than Tough because they behave differently to answer different use-cases from each other.

Your example relies on a single encounter. The correct context to be assessing the strength of the 2 feats is in a 6 counter adventuring day.

Instead of assessing it in a fight against a single mob of giants do the same thing with six fights against six mobs of giants.

On single encounter adventuring days with creatures that use damage other than slashing bludgeoning or piecing, tough wins out. On a standard adventuring day, heavy armour Master is clearly the better choice.

Presuming you are proficient in heavy armour of course.

[X3r4ph]

I don't mean optimizers, the ones who comb forums for the best builds; I mean optimizers, people who try to find the best way to accomplish a given goal. Not all of them are very good at it, and I know several who consider surviving damage more important than surviving combat.
It's more a matter of playing the rules as written against people who are going to try and rules lawyer me and playing the rules as intended with people who are just trying to make a character who is a frontline combatant and thought this feat fit better than Toughness.

That makes perfect sense. And I agree on that note. :D Actually, I not only agree I do this exact thing to level out the playing field.

I play with both "real" optimizers and your everyday players you see. So, when the barbarian optimizer in question takes all the most optimized feats and archetypes I have to facilitate a playing style that is less rules strict to get past his catch/22 character. Like, Sentinel doesn't just stop people in their steps. Sometimes it just doesn't work, and sometimes it requires a saving throw.

On the other hand, I have players that make a character that sucks mechanically but is a fun concept. These players get special benefits for their choice in weak mechancs. Example is frontliners with medium armor. A medium armor will never amount to higher AC than light armor user or heavy armor users. So, medium armor master gets a boost. Same goes for Two Weapon Fighting... it sucks mechanically, most of the game, so I boost it.

But I digress. In some cases Heavy Armor Master boosts should be handed out carefully, I agree with that. But, if you have a Barbarian in your group, I think boosting it should be mandatory.

[Malifice]

I play with both "real" optimizers and your everyday players you see. So, when the barbarian optimizer in question takes all the most optimized feats and archetypes I have to facilitate a playing style that is less rules strict to get past his catch/22 character. Like, Sentinel doesn't just stop people in their steps. Sometimes it just doesn't work, and sometimes it requires a saving throw.

If your barbarian is raging 1st round of every encounter 24/7 then you're not doing it right. He should be carefully deciding when to rage (and when not to).

When he isnt raging, he loses most of his class features, and access to reckless attack (he can recklessly attack, but it's dangerous when not raging)

Just throw multiple encounters at him in a row (6-8 like you're suppsed to). Also; ranged attacks/ enemies. Barbarians are **** ranged.

[Citan]

Your example relies on a single encounter. The correct context to be assessing the strength of the 2 feats is in a 6 counter adventuring day.

Instead of assessing it in a fight against a single mob of giants do the same thing with six fights against six mobs of giants.

On single encounter adventuring days with creatures that use damage other than slashing bludgeoning or piecing, tough wins out. On a standard adventuring day, heavy armour Master is clearly the better choice.

Presuming you are proficient in heavy armour of course.
Nope. You don't need to make different assumptions on adventure days.
Because you have healing, at the very least potions, and certainly other ways to restore HP, either fast or slow.

So Tough's extra HP can be replenished between every encounter, if only by quickly quaffing potions. So those 20 HP at lvl 10 can amount to 100+ extra HP over the day, exactly like HAM's negated damage can amount to that kind of magnitude if you expose yourself to threat in a smart enough way.

See, that's the thing. Like Sharkforce, you just want so much to be right that you don't even try to think the thing through, thus forgetting simple yet essential considerations.

1. it isn't meaningless to say that HAM is better than tough. yes, HAM is not for everyone (in particular, it is not for people who don't have heavy armour).

2. HAM is good for people that can use it if they're at all likely to be on the front lines. it will most likely pay for itself over the course of most adventuring days several times over. no, it doesn't reduce the damage from a fireball or a dragon's breath attack, but it absolutely does help you survive those things
1. Yes it is absolutely, confer my demonstration. Both feats don't have the same use, the same requirements, the same drawbacks. One is general, one is niche. It's STUPID to compare their value, as stupid as would be comparing Defensive Duelist and Shield Master for example.

2. I never said anything contradicting this assumption, quite on the contrary, I gave some examples of myself gladly taking HAM over Tough.
Like I said, I agree it's a great feat, but the fact it does not scale is still regrettable at higher level, simply because all creatures hit much harder and with different damage types... Although it does keep space for other feats as a consequence.

[SharkForce]

Nope. You don't need to make different assumptions on adventure days.
Because you have healing, at the very least potions, and certainly other ways to restore HP, either fast or slow.

So Tough's extra HP can be replenished between every encounter, if only by quickly quaffing potions. So those 20 HP at lvl 10 can amount to 100+ extra HP over the day, exactly like HAM's negated damage can amount to that kind of magnitude if you expose yourself to threat in a smart enough way.

See, that's the thing. Like Sharkforce, you just want so much to be right that you don't even try to think the thing through, thus forgetting simple yet essential considerations.

1. Yes it is absolutely, confer my demonstration. Both feats don't have the same use, the same requirements, the same drawbacks. One is general, one is niche. It's STUPID to compare their value, as stupid as would be comparing Defensive Duelist and Shield Master for example.

2. I never said anything contradicting this assumption, quite on the contrary, I gave some examples of myself gladly taking HAM over Tough.
Like I said, I agree it's a great feat, but the fact it does not scale is still regrettable at higher level, simply because all creatures hit much harder and with different damage types... Although it does keep space for other feats as a consequence.

except that assumption you're making that *all* creatures hit much harder and with different damage types is nonsense. some creatures hit more often rather than harder. many or even most continue to primarily include P/B/S in their regular attacks. the ones that don't tend to be special (sure, a lich won't be doing a ton of P/B/S, but you shouldn't be facing liches all that often). and you're supposed to continue facing many of the same enemies you've fought before. this assumption that just because you're level 10 you should only be fighting monsters close to CR 10, that low CR monsters should just vanish from combat entirely, is incorrect. if you're in a necromancer's lair, you don't have to look around exclusively for undead creatures near CR 10 for your level 10 party, you can still use zombies, skeletons, ghouls, and ghasts (in addition to some more powerful stuff) in larger numbers. you don't just go through every book, find out that alhoons and ooze masters are CR 10 undead creatures, and decide that this necromancer exclusively uses alhoon minions. you can just as easily use a wight, 2 ghasts, and 8 ghouls as a hard encounter. or 3 ogre zombies and 10 regular zombies as a medium encounter. or a dozen skeletons led by a vampire spawn.

and you can keep on using encounters like these all the way through to level 20. in fact, you should. it is well known that groups of weaker enemies are tougher to fight than single powerful ones, so if you want to keep the challenge on, you're going to *need* to use encounters like these, otherwise it probably won't matter what you choose, because everything is going to either be a total cakewalk (if the monster isn't one-shotting people) or a probable TPK (if it is). plus, it makes a heck of a lot more sense than deciding that just because you're level 14 now, mummy lords and adult dragons go from being rare legendary creatures to being standard mooks that you can hardly even go anywhere without fighting a dozen of them. so not only do you get more challenging fights, which should help keep things more interesting for everyone involved, but you also get a less ridiculous setting, one where you don't have to wonder why there are hundreds of the generals of hell just casually wandering around the boundaries of whatever town the PCs happen to be in, and yet the world is still standing.

[Zalabim]

Nope. You don't need to make different assumptions on adventure days.
Because you have healing, at the very least potions, and certainly other ways to restore HP, either fast or slow.

So Tough's extra HP can be replenished between every encounter, if only by quickly quaffing potions. So those 20 HP at lvl 10 can amount to 100+ extra HP over the day, exactly like HAM's negated damage can amount to that kind of magnitude if you expose yourself to threat in a smart enough way.
Unless you're using an ability that restores HP without regard for numbers, like Long Resting, Tough's 20 HP is just 20 HP. If you're filling up that HP with potions, cure wounds, prayer of healing, or aura of vitality, that extra HP isn't from Tough. Unless you're reduced to between 1 and 20 HP, Tough hasn't done anything. Furthermore, unless you're reduced to between 1 and 10 HP, +2 Con would have done just as well. On the flip side, if you're subjected to an effect that reduces your HP without regard for numbers, like the Banshee's wail, then Tough's 20 HP is literally nothing. In that case, the +1 to con saves, and +1 healing with each hit dice to recover afterwards, would have been better.

Tough is a niche feat. Almost no character class should ever trade an ASI for Tough instead of +2 Consitution, but if you're regularly using spells like Regeneration and Power Word Heal, rarely using your Hit Dice to heal, and really need a few more HP to get through extra tough fights, then maybe you should take Tough. Then again, maybe you should take Inspiring Leader instead. Tough is one of the worst trap feats in 5E simply for being niche at best, yet being recommended so often.