Wild mage sorcerer 14 / lore bard 6 : which bard spells?

[Dalebert]

Metamagics are already chosen and not rebuild-able: Careful, Twinned, & Quicken. I'm primarily looking for advice on bard spells. I'll get 9 bard spells and 2 magical secrets spells. What are good ones to complement a 14th level sorc? For doing fun things with metamagic? Currently 11 / 1 and my spells are

Healing Word
Dissonant Whispers
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Feather Fall

[Citan]

Hi!

So: Careful, Twinned and Quicken heh?
- Healing Words, Longstrider: obviously for twin.
- Bestow Curse: one of the top five debuff of that level, versatile. Great with Twin, or maybe Quicken (you do need to come damn close to your target, so having a Disengage/Dodge at the ready with Action may help).
- Fear, Invisibility, Pyrotechnics, Hold Person, Blindness, Enhance Ability or Hypnotic Pattern: they are also on Sorcerer list, but learning them as Bard free some space for other great Sorcerer spells.
- Heat Metal: can be twinned, not usable regularly but great when you can.
- Dissonant Whispers: may be worth if you like doing smart control by making enemies move near strong allies (Rogue/Paladin with OA) or into sustained AOE (Web/Stinking Cloud / Spike Growth / etc).

Honestly though, most Bard spells that benefit from Careful are also on Sorcerer list, it's even truer with Twin with few exceptions like the ones mentioned, and Quicken is useful for any spell really. :)

And there are other good Bard spells that don't really benefit from those metamagics you chose but should be imo be taken because non accessible to Sorcerer and still great, like Silence, Glyph of Warding or Leomund's Tiny Hut. So if you consider all those three + Healing Words (you just cannot not take it) and Bestow Curse (you can do it without, but honestly a top debuff, plus potentially non-concentration) it means only 4 spells to choose left. ^^
As for Magic Secrets, I'd suggest you rather refer to all those threads dedicated to it for inspiration and choose things to roundabout your selection.

[Dalebert]

Volo's is my +1 so no EE spells. I'll take another look at Bestow Curse. It didn't impress me but maybe I'm missing something.

[Citan]

Volo's is my +1 so no EE spells. I'll take another look at Bestow Curse. It didn't impress me but maybe I'm missing something.
Well, consider usual good debuff spells like Blindness or Slow, or Hold X, who target Constitution (common good save) or Wisdom (lesser, but still happens).
All those spells provide an additional save on each passing turn.

As a Sorcerer, you could just directly Heighten one of those spells and hope that your party will take care of the enemy before he succeed on the save.

Consider you are level 10 for example (5 Bard / 5 Sorcerer). At that time your spell DC should be 8+4+3 = 15.
An enemy with +0 (rare) would have 30% chance to make its save. You can expect at least 2 more turns before counting on save success.
An enemy with +2 (most common on WIS) will have 40% chance. Past the 2nd turn, you never know when enemy is gonna break effect.
An enemy with +5 (common on CON) will have 55% chance. Maybe your spell won't even last after next turn.

Now enforce disadvantage. Chances become respectively 9%, 16% and 30%.
Another thing to note is, the spell is non-concentration when upcast as 5th+ spell.
Finally, one possible effect is just improving your own damage.

So use-cases are...
1) Most common: one of your mates has the perfect sustainable spell to take care of the enemy (you don't): Bestow Curse is a great way to help him imprit his spell and make it last. Also great to help martials that have saving throw features (*looks at Monk's Stunning Strike, that targets Constitution*). In fact, since it affects anything thrown at the enemy, it's great when you want to stack several effects that target the same save. ;)
2) Yourself want to cast a very powerful sustainable spell and put the best chances of success on your side.
3) You don't have Heigtened but consider that investing a turn on trying Bestow Curse to impose the same, albeit better effect, is worth it.
4) You are preparing for some chain of attacks and want to profit from extra damage.

Otherwise said, it's probably not a good idea to try and use it "for yourself" if you don't expect an encounter to last more than 2 or 3 turns, unless you know it's the last of the day anyways.
But whether to help another shine (that's why it's on Bard list, Bard being a support at core ;)) or enable any powerful combo for long-lasting fights (5+ encounters), it can be a real game-changer. ESPECIALLY if you pair it with Heigtened to ensure that "3rd/5th slot on round investement" will bear fruit.

[Dalebert]

I think the fact it's touch turns me off to it. It's twinnable but that's harder to take advantage of because it's also touch. Enemies would need to be close and I'd have to put myself in danger to both of them. It would be more appealing I think if I had distant spell but if I go with my current plan to stop at 14, I won't.

I see the appeal of something that imposes disadvantage on a save but they have to fail the save on this first and it takes two actions and two spells to get to that benefit. Even if wisdom is a weak save for them, it feels like a lot of work getting to that point so it feels pretty niche. I'd be more inclined to cast just one spell, that's ranged, picking one that they don't have a good save for, and use Bend Luck to subtract a d4 from their save.

[Citan]

I think the fact it's touch turns me off to it. It's twinnable but that's harder to take advantage of because it's also touch. Enemies would need to be close and I'd have to put myself in danger to both of them. It would be more appealing I think if I had distant spell but if I go with my current plan to stop at 14, I won't.

I see the appeal of something that imposes disadvantage on a save but they have to fail the save on this first and it takes two actions and two spells to get to that benefit. Even if wisdom is a weak save for them, it feels like a lot of work getting to that point so it feels pretty niche. I'd be more inclined to cast just one spell, that's ranged, picking one that they don't have a good save for, and use Bend Luck to subtract a d4 from their save.
Indeed, it is a significant (even big) problem, and I completely follow you in how that may make it unfit for you (or honestly many people, me included, for characters that usually have low HP/AC/mobility).
Note though that if you had a familiar, wherever he came from, you could deliver Bestow Curse through it... Provided of course, *ahem* it lives long enough to reach the target XD. Which makes it more of a last-resort option than something to build on imo...^^

That's why I would usually pick Bestow Curse for a character that either has great mobility, or great AC, or great hiding... But admittedly most of my characters have dips into Rogue / Fighter / (Life or Trickster) Cleric to get one of these... ^^

For a pure Lore Bard or a pure Sorcerer, like you, I wouldn't risk it unless I have someone to help me stay safe or I have Distant metamagic.

So then the good news coming from this discussion is... One more spell among many great to choose for your character \o/

[Dalebert]

FWIW, I'm leaning toward things I can't get from sorcerer. This character is built more for buffing/debuffing enemies and crowd control than dealing dmg directly but he has a Staff of Power so I can still toss out some boom-booms now and then. That makes me less inclined to take boom-boom spells but I'm thinking of having Lightning Bolt as a backup for when he's maybe out of charges or wants to save them for Wall of Force and such.

Some things that come to mind:
Faerie Fire (for big armored things with bad dex)
Lesser Restoration
Calm Emotions (versatile)
Silence seems like a good suggestion. I could follow up with Telekinesis to move a caster back into it and hold them there.

That said, My drow (a different char) never uses his Faerie Fire anymore. Of course he only gets it once/day so I think maybe I tend to save it for if something is invisible. If I could cast it more casually, I might be more inclined ot use it on clunky armored enemies.

[Citan]

FWIW, I'm leaning toward things I can't get from sorcerer. This character is built more for buffing/debuffing enemies and crowd control than dealing dmg directly but he has a Staff of Power so I can still toss out some boom-booms now and then. That makes me less inclined to take boom-boom spells but I'm thinking of having Lightning Bolt as a backup for when he's maybe out of charges or wants to save them for Wall of Force and such.

Some things that come to mind:
Faerie Fire (for big armored things with bad dex)
Lesser Restoration
Calm Emotions (versatile)
Silence seems like a good suggestion. I could follow up with Telekinesis to move a caster back into it and hold them there.

That said, My drow (a different char) never uses his Faerie Fire anymore. Of course he only gets it once/day so I think maybe I tend to save it for if something is invisible. If I could cast it more casually, I might be more inclined ot use it on clunky armored enemies.
Hey no worries. It's hard to find a "bad" spell anyways really, it's just that some are easier than others, some are more situational than others.

On that regard, for armored enemies, I'll dare suggesting again Heat Metal. ;) They just have no realistic way to avoid it if you target their metal chest armor, so it's like a guaranteed imposed disadvantage and damage on bonus action. And you can Twin it. Of course, it doesn't provide advantage on attacks against them. So I'd say it's like a hidden brother of Faerie Fire. ^^

I'm interested in Calm Emotions. I never think of it by lack of creativity in how to use it. Would you have some examples?

Good catch on Lesser Restoration. Forgot about it but if you don't have a Cleric in party it's definitely one to get.

About Silence + Telekinesis, yeah it should work theorically, as long as you plan correctly (because both are concentrations, first will cease as soon as you cast the second, so not sure about the best way to proceed ^^). Can be a decent backup plan for solo control. Otherwise, I'd rather say "ask a martial for a grapple ^^".

[Dalebert]

On that regard, for armored enemies, I'll dare suggesting again Heat Metal.


For literally armored, sure. I was also referring to things like dragons or bullettes.



I'm interested in Calm Emotions. I never think of it by lack of creativity in how to use it. Would you have some examples?


It's the poor man's Hypnotic Pattern though only working on humanoids but it doubles as a great full party buff if they get dragon feared or vampire charmed. Frightened and charmed are pretty common conditions and you can just go POOF. Then kill whatever's causing it before the minute runs out. I'd say the party buff effect is the primary reason to have it and crowd control is a secondary usage that's a nice perk. Use a 2nd level slot instead of a 3rd for Hypnotic Pattern if targets are humanoids. It also has built in Careful Spell because you choose the targets that they cease to be hostile toward. If you hit your party members all it does is make them non-hostile toward people they're already non-hostile toward, i.e. each other.

However, I just noticed that it has another serious downside compared to Hypnotic Pattern. Targets snap out of it if they see their friends harmed. That seriously limits the situations where it can be useful.


Good catch on Lesser Restoration. Forgot about it but if you don't have a Cleric in party it's definitely one to get.

I'm in AL and I never know if there will be a cleric or not. It's a nice catch-all for a number of bad things.

I forgot about Silence and TK both being concentration. Oh well.

[Citan]

For literally armored, sure. I was also referring to things like dragons or bullettes.



It's the poor man's Hypnotic Pattern though only working on humanoids but it doubles as a great full party buff if they get dragon feared or vampire charmed. Frightened and charmed are pretty common conditions and you can just go POOF. Then kill whatever's causing it before the minute runs out. I'd say the party buff effect is the primary reason to have it and crowd control is a secondary usage that's a nice perk. Use a 2nd level slot instead of a 3rd for Hypnotic Pattern if targets are humanoids. It also has built in Careful Spell because you choose the targets that they cease to be hostile toward. If you hit your party members all it does is make them non-hostile toward people they're already non-hostile toward, i.e. each other.

However, I just noticed that it has another serious downside compared to Hypnotic Pattern. Targets snap out of it if they see their friends harmed. That seriously limits the situations where it can be useful.



I'm in AL and I never know if there will be a cleric or not. It's a nice catch-all for a number of bad things.

I forgot about Silence and TK both being concentration. Oh well.
Well, huh. Thanks for these examples, I re-discovered the spell.
(Admittedly I rarely played in campaign when charm/fear were common, this may explain that).
Honestly, although this is obviously a niche situation, you could probably use it offensively in any party that either has Silence or Fog Cloud / Darkness / Wall of Fire / whatever. Spell says "targets snaps out if it witness a friend being harmed". I don't consider "smell" to be enough, so only sight or hearing.
So theorically, you could find a way to kill one of its allies without it "witnessing" it.
With that said, I fail to imagine a situation in which this would be the best (lest only) course of action. :smallbiggrin: Except if you just want to do it for the fun of undertaking a technical challenge. XD

As for Silence and Telekinesis... Technically it can work in the order Telekinesis / Silence, but that's one round only and extemely expensive. :)
However, you can certainly keep the idea for when/if someone else in your party gets Silence.

[apepi]

Bane? It might be my most favorite spell, very useful with Cutting Words.

[Dalebert]

I should seriously consider Bane. When it's useful, it's really useful. I think it could be handy for big scary heavy-hitters with low wis saves.