With enemies forced to attack me, I need to not die. Help?

[SangoProduction]

(Well, oops. I meant to preview. Not post. Oh well. It's finished enough.)

I've got a mageknight (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight), with the Kinetic Scourge (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kinetic-scourge) archetype, from Spheres of Power, which focuses around the Energy Tether (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/destruction#toc23) talent. I'd like to take it to 20 with minimal multiclassing.

Energy Tethers creates a tether between you and the target, which does damage and may have an additional effect (such as Drowning). Of course, because of the half-casting nature of the class, the hp and break dc of the thing is even more pathetic, and the additional effect is unlikely to land (although you get a chance each round the tether isn't dealt with).

So, clearly, that's not really the point. The point is to keep the targets busy dealing with your tethers, and maybe yourself, rather than your allies. This is basically the definition of a tank.

I mean, technically, he gets access to some hit-and-run Mystic Combats, but I'm really not seeing a point in trying to make a damaging martial type when you could just be a full caster and deal a bunch more damage from range. And you've got d10 HD from the class. You probably shouldn't be that scared of being engaged in combat, unless the game's already hyper lethal, in which case, hit-and-run probably wouldn't help all that much. (Well, aside from if you enhanced it with Reach Spell, which could net you much greater distance than most can charge - and this could allow you to cut through a low-level army impressively. But they could still cut the cable, and you'd be using the few spell points you've got each turn for that trick.)


So yeah. It's a tank. It needs to have things attacking it, and to survive having things attacking it. I need some build ideas. Preferably, I'd like to avoid using spells that the character doesn't personally know (particularly from wands/scrolls). If a permanent magic item provides Mirror Image, or the like, then that's fine. Also, I'm probably going with Halfling for the size bonus to defense, Dex and Cautious Fighter. I am not entirely sold yet.

I've got ideas, but I really am not familiar with Pathfinder, so I'm obviously going to miss some stuff. So, here are the options I've laid out for myself so far.

So, the first step is clearly to take Fortified Casting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc161) tradition, which allows us to reduce our stat dependencies. As a tank, we wanted to go for maximum Con anyway, so woo. The requisite drawback, Draining Casting causes some nonlethal damage that can only be healed by rest. Who cares. We are maxing Con, and have a d10 hit die. If they spend their turn attacking the tether to make us deal 1 or 2 nonlethal damage to ourselves, that's a win. It does hurt dungeon crawling, I guess.

As for Mystic Combats of the base class, Sustain (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc41)could be nice for those "oh god, that was a crit" moments. Unbreakable (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc44)provides a DR per level self-buff. That's rather cool. Self-Reliance (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc35) might be nice, but you lack the talents to be able to be an effective healer, even with the self-target-only drawback. I might be wrong though. Invisibility (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc20)is really good...if concentrating on your tethers doesn't count as attacking (GM dependant). And Chivalry (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc11)is just generally a decent supporting ability. Not great but decent, as bonuses to saves, however small, is nice.

Swift Combatant (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc42) is pretty sick, if you're a slow race using heavy armor, granting Swift action 30ft move. This could be nice if you are out of position for your tethers.

As you can see, it's none-too-entirely impressive on the base class side (for the most part), unless the primary threat to you is hp damage. But the archetype offers 2 must-haves for the build, Quick Concentration and Dual Tether, which greatly enhance your tethers. With Quick Concentration, you can have a full-attack if you're linked to only one person, or you can still have a Standard if you're dual linked. And Dual Tether is self-explanatory. You double your taunts.

I'd say we could take either of them first, but the other must be second. Dual Tether is probably the best, as it's a raw upgrade to your capabilities. But, Quick Concentration just makes things so convenient.

Any thoughts?

Feats, in no particular order, other than when I came up with them.
Reach Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic/)allows you to potentially move 220 feet as a standard action, at level 1, using the Tether Adept (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sphere-focused-feats#toc52) feat you get as a bonus feat. It also has potential for diversifying what you can do to include effectively giving your team a limited form of flight that involves you carrying them Spider-Man style, across a chasm or up a cliff.

Combat Casting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/combat-casting-final/), unlike how it usually is, is actually quite useful, as it allows us to straight up cast while in melee (right where we want to be), and not care too much. Even ignoring the potential reading of " 'while casting defensively?' Well, I'll always cast defensively, so I'll always get the buff, even if I am not provoking AoOs," which is a bit cheesy.

Dodging Rally (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/combat-feats#toc7), for +4 dodge bonus to AC when rallied. This might be useful later on, when you've got the spare talents and actions (because of Quick Concentration).

Cautious Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/cautious-fighter-combat-halfling/)is a +2 dodge bonus while on the defensive, which you can afford to be, as you force them to attack you anyway.

(Improved) Mystic Assault (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc36) allows you to cast instead of make an attack, in a full attack action. That could be cool. Not totally necessary, but cool.

Armor Proficiency, Heavy. Because obviously, for a tank build. Or you can just dip a level in any class that's got it already. And with Tether Adept, you don't really need to worry about speed. This allows you to also safely dump Dexterity as well, reducing MAD to at worst Strength and Con. Although....if you're binding people from range...you probably want Dexterity. So maybe not.

Combat Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-expertise-combat) is a nice pick for later on, as it allows you to still attack, and get the same bonus as full defense by level 4. , and considering you tend to make touch attacks (for the tether) at full BAB, this isn't nearly as bad of a choice as it normally is. (This is leagues better if you just get it as an option, baseline, because the DM removed feat taxes.)

Improved Combat Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/flaming-crab-games/combat-feats-3rd-party-flaming-crab-games/improved-combat-expertise-combat/)has potential.

Shield Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-focus-combat-final) improves Shield bonus by 1. Nothing impressive, but it's there.

Toughness, granting +HD (min 3) HP. It's there. Again, not impressive, but if HP damage is really getting you down, somehow.

Iron Will is nice, even though you've got good Will, and bonus to saves vs magic-type stuff, because, of course it is.

Extra Talent for the...well, extra talent is nice. You don't get many.

Extra Mystic Combat is also pretty sick, especially for level 5, so you can, as immediately as possible, get Swift and Doubled tethers.

Cautious Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/cautious-warrior-combat/) is cool. +1 AC for a trait, for what you're normally going to do, is not bad.

Any +Perception or +Initiative trait, as normal.

Focused Mind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/focused-mind/), because +2 on Concentration checks, when you're casting in melee is superb.

Iron-Plated Mind (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/traits#toc3): +4 to defensive casting, but only for a single sphere (destruction, no doubt). Probably better than Focused Mind for this purpose.


Oddly enough, shields probably have a place, now that you've got what's effectively a taunt. Madu could be useful for early on...and even later on. It basically makes being defensive not hurt your offense so much. It's probably pretty good.
Heavy Shield could also be used, if you're less concerned about missing touch attacks as a full BAB character.

Ring of Protection. Because AC.
Ring of Sustenance. Because RP. Oh, and I guess there's a marginally better chance of having gotten "rest" before you're ambushed at night.

Belt of Mighty Constitution, because duh. (Other physical stats too.)

Gloves of Elven Kind, because concentration is dope.

A Destruction Scepter to raise the effective caster level of your tethers would probably be nice.

Human. Bonus feat. +Con. Awesome. If boring.

Halfling. +1 Size AC, +Dex. Useful defensive feats. +Saves and Perception. Pretty sweet.

Dwarf. +Con. (Also Wisdom, for Will save bonus). Equips heaviest armor without getting slowed (...further). Can replace Hardy with Unstoppable, for Toughness, and +1 Fort save. Pathfinder makes them look like derpy gnomes though. There're also a lot of meaningless bonuses to keep track of, and don't trade away nicely.

Hobgoblin. +Dex, +Con. +1 Natural Armor. +1 CMD. That's everything you want. It's a goblinoid though. RP would be hard.

Squole. +Dex, +Con. Elemental Resistance. It's also easy to make the tether thematic. You are blind past 40 ft though. You won't be spidermanning across town. Not quickly.

Well, Destruction and Energy Tether are obviously required. Past that? I dunno.

Maybe a custom Blast of Nonlethal (your damage doesn't matter anyway), Staggered and Dazed.
Or Nonlethal Nauseated. Or if you want to make sure the DM never allows spheres of magic again, Staggered with no save. Could even throw in a damage decrease, and make that a Nauseated.

[upho]

Before I get into details, I just wanted to say I have very little SoP-fu, so I may very well have missed some important details. But many of my suggestions/comments don't have to do with SoP anyways, so hopefully you'll find something useful here.


The point is to keep the targets busy dealing with your tethers, and maybe yourself, rather than your allies. This is basically the definition of a tank.Indeed. It also happens to be something which Paizo classes other than full casters are unable to do effectively.

I think your tank idea sounds different and fun to play, although if the game is expected to go into higher levels, I believe you'll find the limit of max 2 simultaneously tethered foes(?) to be a bit problematic. AFAICT, the only effective way of dealing with this would be some kind of combo which allows you to take tethered opponents out of the fight in the same round you first tether them. My first thought would be for you to somehow cause a heavily debuffed tethered enemy to trigger one or more AoOs from you, and then use Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/seize-the-opportunity-combat/) and Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/) to daze or nauseate the enemy for the remainder of the fight. Could be impossible or very expensive to get going though, and might be too powerful for your game if it's attainable since you'll probably quite easily be able to boost your DT CMB through the roof.


Fortified CastingAwesome for this build, no doubt.


As for Mystic Combats of the base class, Sustain (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc41)could be nice for those "oh god, that was a crit" moments.As counters (see below) cannot deal with crits, this seems decent.


Unbreakable (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc44)provides a DR per level self-buff. That's rather cool.That's a hefty amount of DR. I think the main issue is the short duration and swift action requirement, which may make it clunky to use in practice. And DR is of course the most effective when fighting against many opponents and/or opponents with many weaker attacks, which is likely the fights when your tether is going to be the least effective. Might be a good emergency lifesaver though.


Self-Reliance (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc35) might be nice, but you lack the talents to be able to be an effective healer, even with the self-target-only drawback. I might be wrong though.In-combat healing seems to be impossible for you to bring up to a level which actually makes a difference worth the investments. I wouldn't try this.


Invisibility (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc20)is really good...if concentrating on your tethers doesn't count as attacking (GM dependant).Definitely great. Anything which allows you to ignore/avoid enemy aggression while kiting them is of course awesome.


And Chivalry (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc11)is just generally a decent supporting ability. Not great but decent, as bonuses to saves, however small, is nice.While this isn't bad per se, I'd focus getting your own durability up to scratch first.


Swift Combatant (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight#toc42) is pretty sick, if you're a slow race using heavy armor, granting Swift action 30ft move. This could be nice if you are out of position for your tethers.I dunno. Swift move is surely good, but close range soon becomes enough for most combat situations IME. I think this would be much more valuable if you focused on melee stuff.


As you can see, it's none-too-entirely impressive on the base class side (for the most part), unless the primary threat to you is hp damage. But the archetype offers 2 must-haves for the build, Quick Concentration and Dual Tether, which greatly enhance your tethers. With Quick Concentration, you can have a full-attack if you're linked to only one person, or you can still have a Standard if you're dual linked. And Dual Tether is self-explanatory. You double your taunts.

I'd say we could take either of them first, but the other must be second. Dual Tether is probably the best, as it's a raw upgrade to your capabilities. But, Quick Concentration just makes things so convenient.I agree, and I'd probably take Dual first.


Any thoughts?Well, AFAICT, the main thing the class is missing that you sorely need is a "nope" ability. Meaning something which allows you to straight up void an enemy's attack on you. Generally speaking, I think there are two main paths to achieve this: preemptive or reactive.

The preemptive path is exactly what it says on the tin; buff yourself through the roof and/or debuff enemies into uselessness before they can attack you so that their attacks are ineffective. At least during the first ten levels or so, I'd guess this is likely going to be difficult for you to do though, as your actions will often consist of "taunting".

The reactive path is using immediate actions, or PoW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) counters to be precise. There are quite a few very useful low level counters that remain powerful throughout all levels, and your IL will increase at half pace even if you take levels in other classes, meaning just one or a few levels in full initiator class(es) can give you quite a lot of "nope". For example, there are plenty of "skill check vs attack" counters to completely avoid weapon attacks, and quite a few which even allows you to avoid spells. The Fool's Errand discipline even has one which can let you avoid an entire full attack (Moment of Mastery). I'd try to squeeze in as many and as varied and effective counters as possible, and attempt to keep my other "required" swift/immediate actions to a bare minimum.

[SangoProduction]

I think your tank idea sounds different and fun to play, although if the game is expected to go into higher levels, I believe you'll find the limit of max 2 simultaneously tethered foes(?) to be a bit problematic. AFAICT, the only effective way of dealing with this would be some kind of combo which allows you to take tethered opponents out of the fight in the same round you first tether them.

Right. I forgot that you actually have to still take the standard action per casting of tether. mmm. That could be problematic, as I only know of Quicken Spell, and Metamagic Rod as solutions to that - and both are expensive in their own way. But perhaps with Invisibility, you can set up with a surprise round, and then in the first round. Since Dex is a secondary ability, you already have a decent initiative.



My first thought would be for you to somehow cause a heavily debuffed tethered enemy to trigger one or more AoOs from you, and then use Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/seize-the-opportunity-combat/) and Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/) to daze or nauseate the enemy for the remainder of the fight. Could be impossible or very expensive to get going though, and might be too powerful for your game if it's attainable since you'll probably quite easily be able to boost your DT CMB through the roof.
Awesome for this build, no doubt.

mm...I don't think it would fit this build.


That's a hefty amount of DR. I think the main issue is the short duration and swift action requirement, which may make it clunky to use in practice. And DR is of course the most effective when fighting against many opponents and/or opponents with many weaker attacks, which is likely the fights when your tether is going to be the least effective. Might be a good emergency lifesaver though.
I'd say it's quite the opposite. The entire point of tanking is to burn the enemy action economy such that they can't effectively use it against your allies. A creature with many (non-BAB-based) attacks generally has less damage per attack, meaning that they are more likely to have to full-attack in order to break it. This means they can't move to your allies, which means you did your job.

The big, chunky foes who deal a bunch of damage in a single hit or two are ones that are more difficult to deal with because they can still move action after releasing themselves. Still a win, as you effectively negate their damage for the turn, but not as great as if they didn't instantly break it.



Well, AFAICT, the main thing the class is missing that you sorely need is a "nope" ability. Meaning something which allows you to straight up void an enemy's attack on you.

Yeah. I don't know of many, which was why I made this thread.



The preemptive path is exactly what it says on the tin; buff yourself through the roof and/or debuff enemies into uselessness before they can attack you so that their attacks are ineffective. At least during the first ten levels or so, I'd guess this is likely going to be difficult for you to do though, as your actions will often consist of "taunting".

The reactive path is using immediate actions, or PoW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) counters to be precise. There are quite a few very useful low level counters that remain powerful throughout all levels, and your IL will increase at half pace even if you take levels in other classes, meaning just one or a few levels in full initiator class(es) can give you quite a lot of "nope". For example, there are plenty of "skill check vs attack" counters to completely avoid weapon attacks, and quite a few which even allows you to avoid spells. The Fool's Errand discipline even has one which can let you avoid an entire full attack (Moment of Mastery). I'd try to squeeze in as many and as varied and effective counters as possible, and attempt to keep my other "required" swift/immediate actions to a bare minimum.

I was interested in Path of War. Problem is convincing a DM to use both SoP and PoW at the same time, as neither are particularly well-known nor accepted by the general playerbase.