Protecting Deities from Munchkins: nessecary bans

[Jowgen]

Deities have stat-blocks, so in the absence of DM plot armor, they can be killed.

I don't have a problem with deities being killable per-se; I just don't like the idea that a random mortal who's gotten themselves sufficiently optimized can kill one in direct combat with relative ease.

So I'm looking to make a shortlist of the worst combos, shenanigans and other exploits that one should ban to protect these poor persecuted beings of cosmic power.

The obvious ones from the top of my head are Epic Magic, Ice Assassin, continous time-stopping and highpowered Uber-chargers. Though really, I ban those in my games regardless (though some uber charging is tolerated so mundanes can have nice things.

Any others?

[Bakkan]

Because bans will by necessity have far-ranging implications, many of which have nothing to do with your original concern, let me ask: Is it an option to leave the true forms of deities unstatted and hence unkillable and use the printed starts for aspects or projections?

[Malimar]

Because bans will by necessity have far-ranging implications, many of which have nothing to do with your original concern, let me ask: Is it an option to leave the true forms of deities unstatted and hence unkillable and use the printed starts for aspects or projections?
Yeah, this. Like I use deities that are, like, 5-dimensional -- as a d12 is to the battlemap, so a deity is to a mortal. A mortal can at best conquer one of the deity's sides (the statted creature), and can't even begin to interface with the other eleven in any meaningful way (but by the same token, the deity can only bring one of its twelve sides to bear on any given mortal). (In this example, "twelve" is of course as much a metaphor as the rest. The actual number of aspects a deity has is probably at least irrational, maybe imaginary.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Bakkan
Is it an option to leave the true forms of deities unstatted and hence unkillable and use the printed starts for aspects or projections?

Definitely this. It's not "plot armor" so much as a recognition that, as Malimar says, deities transcend the delicate sliver of reality in which mortals operate. This allows deities to be true gods, rather than just souped-up solars.

[Quertus]

Personally, I love the 2e idea that the gods are utterly terrified of mortals becoming too powerful and just killing the gods, and that said fear works as a great impetus for deities to upgrade mortals into deity status before they before too powerful.

Protecting the deities is counterproductive.

[Cosi]

Personally, I love the 2e idea that the gods are utterly terrified of mortals becoming too powerful and just killing the gods, and that said fear works as a great impetus for deities to upgrade mortals into deity status before they before too powerful.

Protecting the deities is counterproductive.

Largely agree with this. The PCs should be able to kill the gods at high level. That's just good clean fun.

That doesn't mean it has to be easy, but even "moderately powerful spellcasters" are fairly difficult to put down permanently. Killing a Lich requires you to go on an entire extra dungeon crawl before you have the boss battle (which is presumably behind a dungeon crawl of its own). If that Lich is a Dry Lich you have to go on what, eight separate dungeon crawls? That's already a pretty serious adventure, and Venca (the divine equivalent of a lich) could easily be even better protected than that, perhaps because his phylacteries are each Liches, on inaccessible private demiplanes, or something equally absurd.

You don't have to do anything to make someone with access to at least one and often two or three full casting classes (e.g. most gods, who also have other abilities) hard to kill. You can just use the spells they already know to make them hard to kill. Honestly, if I went out to kill a god and charging them for several thousand damage was a sufficient solution, I would honestly be insulted. That's not a sufficient solution to (permanently) kill someone whose friends happen to know a 9th level Cleric.

[Anthrowhale]

Metamagic stacking a sufficient quantity of searing fire can one-shot a deity.

Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Celerity, ??], Twin Celerity] with a daze stopper.

[rigsmal]

Metamagic stacking a sufficient quantity of searing fire can one-shot a deity.

Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Celerity, ??], Twin Celerity] with a daze stopper.

Just have to plan the deicide and prepare your spells near the Spire or else the deity's portfolio sense or obscene salient abilities will knock your wizard out before they can even begin.

[Nifft]

Remove ice assassin.

Declare that simulacrum's flesh material component costs 1 gp, or that it's actually a flesh focus so you can't just Eschew Materials it away.

Declare that wish loops don't work, period. You can figure out why each loop doesn't work if you want, but declare up front that searching for one won't help, just to set expectations correctly.

The Manipulate Form ability from Serpent Kingdoms just plain doesn't exist. Sorry, no Pun-Pun.

Limit mitigation for Epic Spellcasting. For example: the player writes an effect she wants to research, then the DM presents one or two potential mitigation packages. The player picks one (or none) of those mitigation packages. This sets the research cost.


That's some of the basics to get you started.

IMHO God-killing ought to involve a lot of research into your setting and that specific god, and not a lot of research into rules exploits.

[InvisibleBison]

If you want to stop people from killing gods, the thing to ban is god-killing - that is to say, simply establish as an aspect of your settings that except under extraordinary (ie, DM approved) circumstances, non-gods simply cannot kill gods. Compiling a long list of techniques that could in theory be used to kill a god and ban them is a bad idea, both because you run the risk of missing something and thus defeating the purpose of the exercise and because you deny your players a bunch of tools that in other circumstances may be entirely acceptable for them to use.

[Eldan]

I've actually downgraded the deities to about CR 18-22 in my current campaign world. Of course, the premise is that the world is mostly E6-ish and the PCs are legendary heroes who get involved in a divine war, so that fits.

[Crake]

I've actually downgraded the deities to about CR 18-22 in my current campaign world. Of course, the premise is that the world is mostly E6-ish and the PCs are legendary heroes who get involved in a divine war, so that fits.

I've done a similar thing in my campaign setting, except it's more like CR23-28ish. The actual gods died in a planar war (for the most part, a few of the self isolating/uncaring gods survived, like the boccob equivilent and the fharlangn equivilent), leaving just the powerful planar entities, like demon lords, archdevils and celestial paragons to act as the "deities" of the setting. They are powerful, but not infallible, but they are also quite numerable, and are actually not even the most powerful entities in the setting. Pretty much all of them are epic level casters though, with an outsider chassis, and they tend to keep tabs on up and coming mortals. Typically, unless one of them "sponsors" a mortal, they won't make it to high levels, simply because SOMEONE will want to take them down.

[Mordaedil]

I tend to run with the ruling that non-epic spells are incapable to taking down deities much harder than a very enthusiastic broom-user.

Sure, you wield powers beyond definition, but the deities are the ones that define what it means to be beyond definition. But they should rightfully shudder at the idea of a mortal posessing the right epic spells.

For this reason, I'd want to allow epic spells to go a little beyond normal definitions.

[Eldan]

I've done a similar thing in my campaign setting, except it's more like CR23-28ish. The actual gods died in a planar war (for the most part, a few of the self isolating/uncaring gods survived, like the boccob equivilent and the fharlangn equivilent), leaving just the powerful planar entities, like demon lords, archdevils and celestial paragons to act as the "deities" of the setting. They are powerful, but not infallible, but they are also quite numerable, and are actually not even the most powerful entities in the setting. Pretty much all of them are epic level casters though, with an outsider chassis, and they tend to keep tabs on up and coming mortals. Typically, unless one of them "sponsors" a mortal, they won't make it to high levels, simply because SOMEONE will want to take them down.

I put 22 as the upper limit for the simple reason that I detest the ELH and my players should be able to fight a deity or two at level 20. So, that's about the hard limit on how high creatures go.

[Telonius]

Personally I'd try to look at it from the opposite direction of the OP - I'd ask what you want the deities to be able to be vulnerable to, as opposed to what they're immune to. Figure that out first. Everything else, they have DR: Yes/Something You Don't Have, Immunity:That, and saves of lolnope.

[Cosi]

Personally I'd try to look at it from the opposite direction of the OP - I'd ask what you want the deities to be able to be vulnerable to, as opposed to what they're immune to. Figure that out first. Everything else, they have DR: Yes/Something You Don't Have, Immunity:That, and saves of lolnope.

Don't do this. If you want people to not beat something, don't give it stats. Don't give it stats of "go **** yourself". There's no way that ends well. If the players figure out something you didn't prepare for that is a good thing. The point of the game is to solve problems, not to be slapped around by invincible NPCs that you can't beat by DM fiat.

[Quertus]

Personally I'd try to look at it from the opposite direction of the OP - I'd ask what you want the deities to be able to be vulnerable to, as opposed to what they're immune to. Figure that out first. Everything else, they have DR: Yes/Something You Don't Have, Immunity:That, and saves of lolnope.


Don't do this. If you want people to not beat something, don't give it stats. Don't give it stats of "go **** yourself". There's no way that ends well. If the players figure out something you didn't prepare for that is a good thing. The point of the game is to solve problems, not to be slapped around by invincible NPCs that you can't beat by DM fiat.

Personally, I love the idea that the gods are these pathetically weak cowards, vulnerable to nearly everything, hiding off in their own private demiplanes praying that nothing comes to kill them. That's what I want my D&D gods to look like.

But there is something to be said for certain mythic figures to be fated to be killed a certain way, and to therefore only be vulnerable to that one special attack. It provides another, potentially equally good feel to the game - or, at least, it does so long as the PCs are going around utilizing those weaknesses and killing the gods left and right. Not so much in a "neener neener you can't hurt me" campaign.

One way or the other, I agree with the sentiment of starting with how you want the gods to be killed, and what that says about the feel of your campaign world. Do you want cowardly deities acting by proxy and promoting mortals, as is my preference? Do you want brutal bullies of gods, preying on humanity? Do you want Fate to have railroaded the game, where gods and PCs have palpable plot armor? What do you want? Never ask that question.

[Geddy2112]

I second the idea that if you don't want something to die, don't give it stats. Even then, I like the idea that deities can be killed or challenged, either by way of some kind of summoning sickness Great old One call of Cthulu style, or magical artifact, epic quest, deity on deity or the like. However, if you don't want them killed the old fashion way, then just don't give them stats.

Stopping munchkin Tier Zero Pun Pun level combos is less about protecting deities, and more about protecting the game/metagame as a whole. If your party can beat the game and destroy space time in the first session, why even have a campaign? Any combo/spell/ability that takes hours of table time, renders obsolete the rest of the party, or makes building a meaningful encounter impossible should also be banned, but again, to make the game actually playable.

That said, most players(even powergaming munchkins) understand that these things will destroy the very fabric of the game and don't run that. Should a player ever be using such power where they threaten the game itself, it is reasonable for a DM to simply fiat it.

Players at high levels should be demigods, capable of destroying cities, monsters, continents, and possibly even the gods themselves. The limit is when their actions will end/ruin the campaign and make playing the game pointless.

[Telonius]

Don't do this. If you want people to not beat something, don't give it stats. Don't give it stats of "go **** yourself". There's no way that ends well. If the players figure out something you didn't prepare for that is a good thing. The point of the game is to solve problems, not to be slapped around by invincible NPCs that you can't beat by DM fiat.

That kind of what I'm trying to get at, though probably from the opposite angle. OP is dissatisfied with how easily killable gods are. So rather than have them be completely unstatted and un-killable, figure out how he'd like them to be killed, and give the players a shot at victory that way. Doing whack-a-mole for banning spell combos is one way of going about it, but that has the potential of being a ridiculously long list that ends up as full of holes as the current situation. The OP's idea of what constitutes an overpowered combo might be different from the advice he'd get, too. A vulnerability list has the advantage of letting the DM easily work it into a campaign, if the players really want to go gunning for a particular deity. Dropping by the deity's home plane with a fully decked-out list of spells is nice and all, but if you have to gather the ancient relics of Sir Killsalot before performing the ritual that summons the deity at the last light of the full moon, that's a whole different kind of awesome.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The ban/fix list from the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?113644-Test-of-Spite-D-amp-D-3-5)is a classic. It cuts out most of the really high-op stuff without catching too much practical-op in the crossfire. You might undo the Wild Shape/Polymorph bans.

In generally, you need to watch out for infinite/very large loops, multiplier stacking, compelling lots of minions into service, metamagic cost reduction, action economy manipulation, exp cost mitigation, and anything that boosts your caster level (especially your actual ability to cast spells, not just for level-based variables) much beyond your actual level.

[Cosi]

That kind of what I'm trying to get at, though probably from the opposite angle. OP is dissatisfied with how easily killable gods are. So rather than have them be completely unstatted and un-killable, figure out how he'd like them to be killed, and give the players a shot at victory that way.

Sure. If you want to have the campaign be "you gather up the stuff to do the ritual of killing Venca", I think that's fine. What I'm objecting to is having Venca be someone you can nominally interact with, but who is practically invincible because he is immune to everything all the time. If you go that route, it's better to have "Vecna" be an abstract concept that doesn't have any stats.

[Doctor Despair]

See my sig, but the short version is Music of the Gods and especially Dragonwrought Kobolds

[Nifft]

The ban/fix list from the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?113644-Test-of-Spite-D-amp-D-3-5)is a classic.

That does seem to hit all the right notes, albeit with some collateral damage.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The ban/fix list from the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?113644-Test-of-Spite-D-amp-D-3-5)is a classic. It cuts out most of the really high-op stuff without catching too much practical-op in the crossfire. You might undo the Wild Shape/Polymorph bans.

In generally, you need to watch out for infinite/very large loops, multiplier stacking, compelling lots of minions into service, metamagic cost reduction, action economy manipulation, exp cost mitigation, and anything that boosts your caster level (especially your actual ability to cast spells, not just for level-based variables) much beyond your actual level.

Honestly, there's a lot of false positives for this purpose there. Outsiders getting MWP, Wild Shape (not any specific use, the whole thing) and, uh, the Fighter are probably not very high on the deific threat list.

[Cosi]

Yeah, that banlist is wonky. A lot of it looks like responses to broken crap people pulled, rather than a coherent plan to make the game not broken.


All forms of awaken are banned.

I get that awaken stacking is broken, but being able to awaken animals, or undead, or constructs seems like a thing we would like the game to do. The fix should be to make it impossible to awaken things repeatedly.


Pazuzu does not exist.

Why are you not fixing wish? At least this is kind of justifiable because it is probably broken to get a wish at 1st level even if it doesn't literally mean "you win the game", but this kind of thing is evidence of a bad methodology.


Prestige paladin and bard.

These are allowed, but apparently Prestige Ranger is not. Suffice it to say that I do not understand that decision.


Domain wizards are banned.

This doesn't seem worse than Elf Generalist. Also, it doesn't seem anywhere near on par with wish or Wild Shape abuse. It's an extra spell.


1d2 crusaders do not exist.

This is insufficiently specified. Why part doesn't work? If "the whole thing" doesn't work, what happens if you try it?


Focused specialists do not exist.

Uh, what? Being a Focused Specialist is generally inferior to just getting all the schools of spells, particularly at high optimization.


SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components.

Are they still free of XP components? Because those are the big issue.


There are no free wishes.

What does this mean? Given that you can wish for things that are worth "infinite money" it doesn't actually matter if you are paying money for wishes or not. You pay X GP to the genie, wish for an item worth 2X + 1 GP and then go on your merry way.


Anything you bring in via planar binding or ally cannot leave, and will be incredibly angry about this.

Nope. This is the wrong way to fix planar binding.


Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method.

What about Invisible Spell (or, I suppose, other +0 metamagic).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, that banlist is wonky. A lot of it looks like responses to broken crap people pulled, rather than a coherent plan to make the game not broken.
Which, to be fair, does sort of seem like what the OP is asking for-- not "how do I generally improve game balance," but "what are the worst god-killing shennanigans?" There are also some things on there that are focused on the PVP-arena aspect of the Test, but it's a better starting point than most of the posts in this thread.

[Cosi]

Which, to be fair, does sort of seem like what the OP is asking for-- not "how do I generally improve game balance," but "what are the worst god-killing shennanigans?" There are also some things on there that are focused on the PVP-arena aspect of the Test, but it's a better starting point than most of the posts in this thread.

But that list has a lot of splash. And a couple things it doesn't do. You can still just pay a pile of money to convince someone with SLA wish to give you real ultimate power.

I stand by my position that this is a bad goal. Ban/Fix things because they make the game not work (e.g. wish loops, Chain Binding), or because they're painful to work with at the table (e.g. polymorph, Chain Binding), or because they do things that are bad (e.g. lost caster levels in PrCs, some errata). If a god is just a caster with a personal demiplane, they are already hard enough to kill if they are played remotely effectively.

[lbuttitta]

Candles of invocation, although I think someone else might have mentioned infinite wish loops.

[Cosi]

Candles of invocation, although I think someone else might have mentioned infinite wish loops.

If you ban the infinite loops, Candles of Invocation are just a way to buy gate for a stupidly small amount of money. It's broken, but it's not broken in a specifically god-killing way.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cosi
The point of the game is to solve problems….

Unless a specific god is causing specific issues, it shouldn’t be a “problem” that gods exist in a setting.


Originally Posted by Nifft
IMHO God-killing ought to involve a lot of research into your setting and that specific god, and not a lot of research into rules exploits.

And this too.


Originally Posted by Quertus
Personally, I love the idea that the gods are these pathetically weak cowards, vulnerable to nearly everything, hiding off in their own private demiplanes praying that nothing comes to kill them.

If the “gods” are this vulnerable, they’re probably not gods in any meaningful sense of the term.

And if by some contorted fiat they really are that vulnerable, then more than likely something else would have taken them out many eons ago.

And who are they praying to?

[Doctor Despair]

And if by some contorted fiat they really are that vulnerable, then more than likely something else would have taken them out many eons ago.

And who are they praying to?

Unless they are very effective at hiding and are only just being lured out by a particularly talented bard ;)

[Quertus]

If the “gods” are this vulnerable, they’re probably not gods in any meaningful sense of the term.

And if by some contorted fiat they really are that vulnerable, then more than likely something else would have taken them out many eons ago.

And who are they praying to?

We did, back in earlier editions of the game. There was even a published module that set "god killing" at, what, level 9 or so?

Kinda like gods in Exalted, gods in D&D are strictly regulated to keep them in line by the railroading over powers. The fact that they are so vulnerable strongly encourages them to not be ****s to mortals. And encourages the gods to dissuade their followers from trying to kill opposing deities - if mortals found out how easy it was, they could wipe out the whole pantheon. Best to instill in them the sense that the current balance is for the best.

So, when PCs want to kill the gods, that represents a failure on the gods part, and I'm all for letting the PCs kill the failure gods, while they pray to the over power for forgiveness.

[rigsmal]

I've always suspected the Lady of Pain mazed people who tried to worship her so that she wouldn't accidentally ascend to divinity. Because, you know, becoming a goddess would make her weaker.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
There was even a published module that set "god killing" at, what, level 9 or so?

Citation for this?


Originally Posted by Quertus
…gods in D&D are strictly regulated to keep them in line by the railroading over powers.

Your syntax doesn’t make sense here.


Originally Posted by Quertus
The fact that they are so vulnerable….

Where are you getting all of this? I've never seen a published setting that describes the gods as vulnerable to mortals.


Originally Posted by Quertus
So, when PCs want to kill the gods, that represents a failure on the gods['] part….

This is ludicrously contorted logic, and only applies in a setting that bends over backwards to cater to this whim.

If a player wants to feel some nerd-power by killing a god, that’s a player issue, not a problem with the rules.

[Quertus]

This is ludicrously contorted logic, and only applies in a setting that bends over backwards to cater to this whim.

If a player wants to feel some nerd-power by killing a god, that’s a player issue, not a problem with the rules.

You missed the point here. Let me try again: If an elected official is voted out, that is how their failure to prove their worth manifests. A god being killed is how their failure to prove their worth manifests.

[Palanan]

Gods don’t need to prove their worth. They’re not elected; they are.

And you haven’t provided any quotes or citations to support your previous claims.

[Zale]

Personally, I'm not on the "statless gods" train- I believe that the gods should have some sort of statistic block. The only reason I would *not* create stats for something is if the players will never interact with it in any way, because doing otherwise strikes me as cheap.

Interact with, of course, doesn't mean "murder", but it can.

However, I think there's a compromise to be had: If you don't want a god to be murderable, don't stat them as a creature because creatures are meant to be murdered.

Instead, stat it up as a formless entity with a set of powers it can deploy in thematically appropriate areas and situations. For example:

A goddess of marriage and childbirth can perceive any of the following:

Anywhere within a mile of one of her temples or holy sites,
Anywhere within a hundred feet of one of her clerics,
Anywhere within ten feet of one of her worshippers, and,
Any home, building, or within ten feet of any outdoor location in which a marriage or birth has taken place in the last hour.


Anywhere within her perception, up to twice a round, she may perform any of the following actions:

Cast any spell of up to the third level from the cleric spell list.
Cast any spell of up to the fifth level from the Community, Good, Life and Protection domains,
Provide a year long version of the Protection from Evil spell to any newborn child or newly married couple, or
Bless a couple with supernatural fertility, such that they conceive a child within 1d4 days.


The caster level for each of these effects is 20.

The goddess can grant cleric spells and possesses the Community, Good, Life and Protection domains.

She doesn't have creature stats because she isn't one. She's capable of a variety of actions that thematically work with her domains. She can deploy these abilities only in places her domains would reach for her, or where her clerics exist.

This gives you a way to interact with her- you can just go to her temple and ask for her help, or, if you don't like her you can restrict her ability to act by destroying her temples and killing or converting her followers.

Doing so won't hurt her, but it will make it harder for her to interact with the world.

[PhantasyPen]

Personally, I'm not on the "statless gods" train- I believe that the gods should have some sort of statistic block. The only reason I would *not* create stats for something is if the players will never interact with it in any way, because doing otherwise strikes me as cheap.

Interact with, of course, doesn't mean "murder", but it can.

However, I think there's a compromise to be had: If you don't want a god to be murderable, don't stat them as a creature because creatures are meant to be murdered.

Instead, stat it up as a formless entity with a set of powers it can deploy in thematically appropriate areas and situations. For example:

A goddess of marriage and childbirth can perceive any of the following:

Anywhere within a mile of one of her temples or holy sites,
Anywhere within a hundred feet of one of her clerics,
Anywhere within ten feet of one of her worshippers, and,
Any home, building, or within ten feet of any outdoor location in which a marriage or birth has taken place in the last hour.


Anywhere within her perception, up to twice a round, she may perform any of the following actions:

Cast any spell of up to the third level from the cleric spell list.
Cast any spell of up to the fifth level from the Community, Good, Life and Protection domains,
Provide a year long version of the Protection from Evil spell to any newborn child or newly married couple, or
Bless a couple with supernatural fertility, such that they conceive a child within 1d4 days.


The caster level for each of these effects is 20.

The goddess can grant cleric spells and possesses the Community, Good, Life and Protection domains.

She doesn't have creature stats because she isn't one. She's capable of a variety of actions that thematically work with her domains. She can deploy these abilities only in places her domains would reach for her, or where her clerics exist.

This gives you a way to interact with her- you can just go to her temple and ask for her help, or, if you don't like her you can restrict her ability to act by destroying her temples and killing or converting her followers.

Doing so won't hurt her, but it will make it harder for her to interact with the world.

I think I'm going to steal this model for my next campaign.

[Cosi]

Unless a specific god is causing specific issues, it shouldn’t be a “problem” that gods exist in a setting.

Uh, sure? I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.


If the “gods” are this vulnerable, they’re probably not gods in any meaningful sense of the term.

That's far from a given, and depends heavily on your conception of "gods". In Greek myths, it's perfectly possible to kill (or at least "defeat") gods. Hell, Norse mythology has an event where all the gods die. The notion that you can't kill God is pretty much a Christian idea, and the Christian god doesn't ever show up and do stuff personally (and when he does via e.g. Jesus, he can be killed).


And if by some contorted fiat they really are that vulnerable, then more than likely something else would have taken them out many eons ago.

Well, yes. And then those guys get to be gods.


If a player wants to feel some nerd-power by killing a god, that’s a player issue, not a problem with the rules.

"Man, screw players who don't want the things I want them to. They're such jerks!"


Gods don’t need to prove their worth. They’re not elected; they are.

You mean like kings? Because spoiler alert: kings get murder. Like, a lot.

[PhantasyPen]

Hell, Norse mythology has an event where all the gods die.



I just wanted to respond to this, because outside of those pre-scripted deaths in Ragnarok, the Nordic deities are more or less unkillable. I'm not sure if this validates or invalidates your point.

[rigsmal]

IIRC Deities and Demigods explicitly discusses deicide. Not only that, but in FR canon deicide has occurred as well.

[Cosi]

I just wanted to respond to this, because outside of those pre-scripted deaths in Ragnarok, the Nordic deities are more or less unkillable. I'm not sure if this validates or invalidates your point.

I mean, that's just one example. The point isn't really "these specific gods can be killed", it's "there are a wide variety of things we call gods, which can or can't be killed in various ways at various times for various reasons". I don't think calling something a "god" necessarily implies anything in particular about its durability, and that was the point I was trying to make.

For examples in (non-myth) fiction, take a look at Lord of Light (various people that call themselves gods, lots of them die), or Three Parts Dead (a murder mystery where the victim is a god).

[Doctor Despair]

Deities and Demigods has statblocks for the deities themselves. The implication when you give something statblocks is that you should fight them, or else it is irrelevant. Divinity was both quantified in terms of divine ranks and qualified for each set of divine ranks. The scope of divinity was described both generally and in terms of specific abilities. DnD is designed with the intention that players may want to fight deities and, if so, here is how to approach that. Of course DMs can fiat anything they like, or homebrew their own deities (cowardly or otherwise), or rewrite the rules for divinity. However, typically on these forums we stick to the text.

With that said, deities of a certain strength are alerted to plots and actions against them via their portfolio sense. This includes past and future events, again depending on the deities divine rank. Judicious use of a divine salient ability mimicing the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural wish allows deities to then thoroughly protect themselves -- or even travel back in time to prevent the plot from happening. You can realistically say that characters never attempt infinites or anything because, if they would have tried to, they would have been struck by lightning at birth.

In order to circumvent this, players would have to abuse the Xorvintaal game rules to prevent their plots from being discovered and the God Blooded of Vecna template to prevent their actions from giving themselves away if their plans involve a sequence of actions. Even then, the deity would know they die that day.

If you negate these two abilities, there is no reason a deity should ever be in real danger. There should be no need to ever nerf anything else.

If you want deities to be vulnerable to the typical adventurer who isn't pillaging splatbooks, you actually have to have a higher level deity with a grudge block the lower level deity's portfolio sense and that's entirely under your control. People wonder why deities are statted so poorly and inefficiently; it's because they never need to see combat unless another, more powerful deity wants them dead.

[rigsmal]

In order to circumvent this, players would have to abuse the Xorvintaal game rules to prevent their plots from being discovered and the God Blooded of Vecna template to prevent their actions from giving themselves away if their plans involve a sequence of actions. Even then, the deity would know they die that day.

Could you elucidate on these xorvintaal rules and how they prevent discovery by gods?

[Doctor Despair]

Could you elucidate on these xorvintaal rules and how they prevent discovery by gods?

Divination Immunity (Ex) Nobody can learn about Chorranathau's future xorvintaal moves through divination spells or similar effects. Such effects can still reveal other information about him.

This is the only ability, to my knowledge, that, as written, blocks all effects that try to predict future actions or plans. If characters coordinate their actions and plans with a xorvintaal dragon, such as Chorranathau, nothing can reveal information about those plans. At its simplest, that might look like a tacit agreement that the PC will act to aid the dragon's next move unexpectedly after secretly acquiring more power or influence by slaying a deity.

[Fouredged Sword]

Here is a thought, what happens when you kill something? It gets sent to the afterlife most appropriate for it. Killing a god just sends them into the outer plane they manage. To actually kill one you would have to strip it of divine rank or seal it's soul somehow. Sealing a soul isn't permanent and there isn't a mechanic outside fait for stealing divine rank, so you can't really kill a god forever.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cosi
For examples in (non-myth) fiction, take a look at Lord of Light (various people that call themselves gods, lots of them die), or Three Parts Dead (a murder mystery where the victim is a god).

These have nothing to do with D&D, and don’t have any bearing on a discussion about game settings and rules.


Originally Posted by Cosi
I don't think calling something a "god" necessarily implies anything in particular about its durability….

This is absurd. If the thing you’re calling a god isn’t immortal, then it’s not a god in any true sense of the word.


Originally Posted by Cosi
…kings get murder[ed].

Mortals do indeed kill other mortals. That’s irrelevant here.


Originally Posted by Doctor Despair
People wonder why deities are statted so poorly and inefficiently; it's because they never need to see combat unless another, more powerful deity wants them dead.

As mentioned above, it makes sense to consider the statblocks as referring to an aspect or avatar of the deity, one which operates in the mortal realm. Killing the avatar doesn’t destroy the deity.

[Doctor Despair]

Here is a thought, what happens when you kill something? It gets sent to the afterlife most appropriate for it. Killing a god just sends them into the outer plane they manage. To actually kill one you would have to strip it of divine rank or seal it's soul somehow. Sealing a soul isn't permanent and there isn't a mechanic outside fait for stealing divine rank, so you can't really kill a god forever.

I can't recall the exact wording, but deities can give their divine ranks away to others through a process common to deities. That's why my first post was about the trouble with bards. The epic feat Music of the Gods would let a bard fascinate and then persuade deities to hand over all of their divinity before killing them while they are mortal.

[Cosi]

These have nothing to do with D&D, and don’t have any bearing on a discussion about game settings and rules.

You mean, the rules that make it possible to kill gods?


This is absurd. If the thing you’re calling a god isn’t immortal, then it’s not a god in any true sense of the word.

I mean, the actual definition of god says nothing about "is immortal":


(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

You're going to have to give some reason why you think this is the case.


As mentioned above, it makes sense to consider the statblocks as referring to an aspect or avatar of the deity, one which operates in the mortal realm. Killing the avatar doesn’t destroy the deity.

No, I'm pretty sure the things that are literally called "aspects" are aspects of the deity. Unless you have some actual citation supporting this, your position is basically that you don't like people killing gods because ... some reason.

[Doctor Despair]

.

As mentioned above, it makes sense to consider the statblocks as referring to an aspect or avatar of the deity, one which operates in the mortal realm. Killing the avatar doesn’t destroy the deity.

There is a specific ability that let's deities make avatars or aspects. The stat blocks refer to the deities themselves. Anything else is DM fiat.

[Quertus]

Gods don’t need to prove their worth. They’re not elected; they are.

And you haven’t provided any quotes or citations to support your previous claims.

Humans aren't elected, they are*. What's your point? Mine was that mortals choosing to vote kill a god out of office was indicative of the deity's failure to demonstrate that the universe would be worse off without them.

As to citations (not really my thing): Google says Throne of Bloodstone has adventurers killing gods at ~18th in 3e. But my referenced Queen of the Demonweb Pits has you start at ~10th to kill Lolth, back in 1e. Like I said, yeah, people have been killing gods for a long time now, even in published modules.

* many deities were once mortals, some are the offspring of other gods, etc, so deities aren't any more "just are" than humans or Golems.


I just wanted to respond to this, because outside of those pre-scripted deaths in Ragnarok, the Nordic deities are more or less unkillable. I'm not sure if this validates or invalidates your point.

Um... IIRC, the most invulnerable of the Norse gods is already dead. So... the rest seen pretty killable from where I'm sitting, give or take their plot armor.

[Fouredged Sword]

I can't recall the exact wording, but deities can give their divine ranks away to others through a process common to deities. That's why my first post was about the trouble with bards. The epic feat Music of the Gods would let a bard fascinate and then persuade deities to hand over all of their divinity before killing them while they are mortal.

But can they give away their rank 0? And can they not just reclaim their lent out divine ranks when desired?

Even rendering them mortal and killing them just sends them to their own plane to plot a way to kill you and or reclaim their divine ranks back.

[Doctor Despair]

But can they give away their rank 0? And can they not just reclaim their lent out divine ranks when desired?

Even rendering them mortal and killing them just sends them to their own plane to plot a way to kill you and or reclaim their divine ranks back.

Again, I don't have Deities and Demigods on hand to reference the explicit rules. However, as a general rule, deities with more divine ranks typically have weaker deities at their mercy. A lot of abilities expressly work on mortals or deities of lower rank, or expressly do not work on deities of higher rank. Taking away their divine ranks is the major hurdle to clear.

If you successfully claim their ranks and kill them, you now have portfolio sense and massive power to hunt down their weakened husk if such a thing exists. Alternatively, you could just incapacitate them in such a way that they can not reclaim their ranks.

Of course, if a deity of a higher rank decides to take you out, they can block your portfolio sense and help restore the weakened, defeated, and/or dead deity to power. Probably best to play politics beforehand or, failing that, go for the highest rank of deity statted to begin with (20 I believe).

[afroakuma]

Well, this thread got... exciting... in a hurry. Think I'll just go back to the OP here.

Jowgen: there was an early recommendation that you treat the published stats as an avatar or other lesser form of a deity. I'd strongly recommend going that route. Deities & Demigods has numerous issues with how it represents gods, as you know. I don't oppose deicide, but as recently discussed in the other thread, I just don't find it reasonable for that book to claim it's got all the bases covered on the matter of gods. Chiefly because it really, really does not. :smalltongue:

[King of Nowhere]

You missed the point here. Let me try again: If an elected official is voted out, that is how their failure to prove their worth manifests. A god being killed is how their failure to prove their worth manifests.

that would be a legitimate case if the mortals stopped worshipping a god because they were fed up with it and the god died as a result. A bunch of superpowered people killing a god? that's more a case of an elected official being murdered by superman. it does not make said elected official a failure. same goes for killling all of a god's followers.


Personally, I'm not on the "statless gods" train- I believe that the gods should have some sort of statistic block. The only reason I would *not* create stats for something is if the players will never interact with it in any way, because doing otherwise strikes me as cheap.

Interact with, of course, doesn't mean "murder", but it can.

However, I think there's a compromise to be had: If you don't want a god to be murderable, don't stat them as a creature because creatures are meant to be murdered.

Instead, stat it up as a formless entity with a set of powers it can deploy in thematically appropriate areas and situations. For example:

A goddess of marriage and childbirth can perceive any of the following:

Anywhere within a mile of one of her temples or holy sites,
Anywhere within a hundred feet of one of her clerics,
Anywhere within ten feet of one of her worshippers, and,
Any home, building, or within ten feet of any outdoor location in which a marriage or birth has taken place in the last hour.


Anywhere within her perception, up to twice a round, she may perform any of the following actions:

Cast any spell of up to the third level from the cleric spell list.
Cast any spell of up to the fifth level from the Community, Good, Life and Protection domains,
Provide a year long version of the Protection from Evil spell to any newborn child or newly married couple, or
Bless a couple with supernatural fertility, such that they conceive a child within 1d4 days.


The caster level for each of these effects is 20.

The goddess can grant cleric spells and possesses the Community, Good, Life and Protection domains.

She doesn't have creature stats because she isn't one. She's capable of a variety of actions that thematically work with her domains. She can deploy these abilities only in places her domains would reach for her, or where her clerics exist.

This gives you a way to interact with her- you can just go to her temple and ask for her help, or, if you don't like her you can restrict her ability to act by destroying her temples and killing or converting her followers.

Doing so won't hurt her, but it will make it harder for her to interact with the world.

If I were to start a new campaign world, I would set similar rules.
In particular, knowing what a god(dess) can or cannot perceive is invaluable for determining what you can know with divination spells like contact other planes. which can be relevant for a lot of plots.

[Doctor Despair]

Well, this thread got... exciting... in a hurry. Think I'll just go back to the OP here.

Naanomi: there was an early recommendation that you treat the published stats as an avatar or other lesser form of a deity. I'd strongly recommend going that route. Deities & Demigods has numerous issues with how it represents gods, as you know. I don't oppose deicide, but as recently discussed in the other thread, I just don't find it reasonable for that book to claim it's got all the bases covered on the matter of gods. Chiefly because it really, really does not. :smalltongue:

There's no need to homebrew how gods work in DnD though; banning the Xorvintaal divination immunity and the God Blooded of Vecna template means that no attempt to kill a deity can succeed without you specifically empowering the PCs to succeed with a greater deity's favor. The PCs think they got the jump on you? It actually could be an avatar -- using the printed rules for avatars -- because you knew they were coming 3 months before hand. PCs that try infinite combo shenanigans have heart attacks from defects put in at birth, fated to occur right then.

[afroakuma]

There's no need to homebrew how gods work in DnD though

I disagree, hence my recommendation.

[Malimar]

These have nothing to do with D&D, and don’t have any bearing on a discussion about game settings and rules.
If we're not allowed in this discussion to consult other settings/media for inspiration, then we must consider only D&D by unmodded RAW. In which case your position is still wrong, deities are plenty killable, as per Deities & Demigods. (It may take Xorvintaal or Vecna-Blooded shenanigans, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but it's possible.)

I do think I prefer a game that's modded so gods are pretty much unkillable (except maybe by falling into obscurity), but I don't think this position is inarguably the only good way to play.


Yeah, this. Like I use deities that are, like, 5-dimensional -- as a d12 is to the battlemap, so a deity is to a mortal. A mortal can at best conquer one of the deity's sides (the statted creature), and can't even begin to interface with the other eleven in any meaningful way (but by the same token, the deity can only bring one of its twelve sides to bear on any given mortal). (In this example, "twelve" is of course as much a metaphor as the rest. The actual number of aspects a deity has is probably at least irrational, maybe imaginary.)
I feel bad about this recommendation. I mean, it's a good recommendation so far as it goes, but it's a comment in that obnoxious and unhelpful genre of
OP: "Help me do X."
Commenter: "Just do Y instead."
So, sorry. :smallfrown:

[Quertus]

Probably best to play politics beforehand or, failing that, go for the highest rank of deity statted to begin with (20 I believe).

Consider this another version of my "the deity has failed to demonstrate their indispensable nature".


that would be a legitimate case if the mortals stopped worshipping a god because they were fed up with it and the god died as a result. A bunch of superpowered people killing a god? that's more a case of an elected official being murdered by superman. it does not make said elected official a failure. same goes for killling all of a god's followers.

Well, yes and no.

If every single mortal worshipper was a PC, then this would be fine. The PCs could simply vote a bad deity out of office.

But, usually, the PCs are larger than life to allow them to be the conscience of the world, so to speak. That have the power to vote deities out of office at the end of a sword.

Forcing the PCs to kill the gods' followers is, imo, a worse game than just letting the PCs kill the gods directly.

[afroakuma]

I feel bad about this recommendation.

I don't think you should; it does fall into that format, yes, but it also addresses problems of scope - Jowgen has asked where all the flammable objects are, and your pitch addresses how to quickly shut off the oxygen. Given Jowgen's dissatisfaction with the ease at which the rules can turn a Deities & Demigods statblock to chutney, your position supports the spirit of Jowgen's question. It is tagged as DM Help, after all, rather than being an abstract thought experiment.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Malimar
In which case your position is still wrong, deities are plenty killable, as per Deities & Demigods.

Several people mention this book, but no one actually cites any specific text.


Originally Posted by Malimar
If we're not allowed in this discussion to consult other settings/media for inspiration….

You’re very conveniently fusing game settings with works of fiction that have no relationship to the actual game.


Originally Posted by Quertus
Consider this another version of my "the deity has failed to demonstrate their indispensable nature".

This is supremely self-serving logic, which makes no in-game sense whatsoever. This is a cheap excuse to justify PCs going after gods, simply because the gods have statblocks.

Despite previous claims, statting out a creature does not mean its only purpose is to be killed.


Originally Posted by Doctor Despair
There's no need to homebrew how gods work in DnD though; banning the Xorvintaal divination immunity and the God Blooded of Vecna template means that no attempt to kill a deity can succeed without you specifically empowering the PCs to succeed with a greater deity's favor. The PCs think they got the jump on you? It actually could be an avatar -- using the printed rules for avatars -- because you knew they were coming 3 months before hand. PCs that try infinite combo shenanigans have heart attacks from defects put in at birth, fated to occur right then.

All of this makes perfect sense.


Originally Posted by Quertus
But, usually, the PCs are larger than life to allow them to be the conscience of the world, so to speak. That have the power to vote deities out of office at the end of a sword.

And this makes no sense whatsoever. I’ve never seen a campaign where the PCs are the “conscience of the world,” and I’ve certainly never seen that claim presented in any campaign setting.

[Shark Uppercut]

Another version of my "the deity has failed to demonstrate their indispensable nature".

By that logic, no god is indispensable, because gods can all potentially die, so the word has no meaning.
It's kinda reminiscent of Socrates or Plato's ideas that the nature of a knife is to cut, so a dull knife is literally less knife-ish, less successful. While true in a general sense, it's not true in a 'physical laws of nature' way, but you're saying it is.

So yeah, any one god is dispensable. They die, and either
a) Someone would take over their responsibilities, or
b) Someone wouldn't, and it wouldn't matter.

There's never been a "God So-and-so died, and the earthly manifestations of their portfolio are falling apart" scenario. Tenebrous and the Lady of Pain both smoked fools with zero long term fallout for the world.

[afroakuma]

I disagree with Quertus's position and encourage those on the fence to look for other alternatives.

[legomaster00156]

Instead of banning anything, you can just not use the stat blocks.

[unseenmage]

To answer this I'm going to engage in a thought experiment, namely How Would I Kill A God.

Trick them onto the mirror plane and let them fight themselves.

On the Plane of Dreams potentially literally anything is possible, including deicide.

As above but with the Far Realm, more of a suicide mission though.

Minionmancy. Equip a nigh infinite amount of Constructs with At Will Greater Teleport and Greater Planeshift and some good ol fashioned high damage dealing nonsense superpower and set them loose.
Spellclocks/Resetting Traps and the Constructs Are Magic Items rules interpretation would feature heavily.

Diplomancy their boss. Just supercharge diplomacy and ask a Greater Deity to murderize the lower deity.

Alternatively, shadow plane travel your way to the real world, get hired by WotC (Teleport Through Time may be required) and write the god(s) dead.

Power of Faerun in the clerical section tells us that it just takes two Diplomacy checks to convert someone to your religion. One to get the subject to attend service, another to convert them during service. Failure makes later success harder, dont fail.
Some massive minionmancy later and viola, everybody everywhere worships nothing at all. Because your minions asked them nicely not to. Twice.
Your minions will need to be charming and knowledgeable, I recommend Bards or that Evangelist PRC.

Edit: It did always strike me as odd that Artifacts created by deities are more pixel click-ey to destroy than deities themselves.
The One Ring MUST go to Mt Doom but in D&D-verse Sauron can just be killed with more dakka and a couple of magical Jedi mind tricks.

[Doctor Despair]

Edit: It did always strike me as odd that Artifacts created by deities are more pixel click-ey to destroy than deities themselves.
The One Ring MUST go to Mt Doom but in D&D-verse Sauron can just be killed with more dakka and a couple of magical Jedi mind tricks.

Actually, a good Mage's Disjunction will sort out artifacts if you take the appropriate precautions. Might take a few tries though.

[Cosi]

To answer this I'm going to engage in a thought experiment, namely How Would I Kill A God.

Trick them onto the mirror plane and let them fight themselves.

On the Plane of Dreams potentially literally anything is possible, including deicide.

As above but with the Far Realm, more of a suicide mission though.

Minionmancy. Equip a nigh infinite amount of Constructs with At Will Greater Teleport and Greater Planeshift and some good ol fashioned high damage dealing nonsense superpower and set them loose.
Spellclocks/Resetting Traps and the Constructs Are Magic Items rules interpretation would feature heavily.

Diplomancy their boss. Just supercharge diplomacy and ask a Greater Deity to murderize the lower deity.

Alternatively, shadow plane travel your way to the real world, get hired by WotC (Teleport Through Time may be required) and write the god(s) dead.

Power of Faerun in the clerical section tells us that it just takes two Diplomacy checks to convert someone to your religion. One to get the subject to attend service, another to convert them during service. Failure makes later success harder, dont fail.
Some massive minionmancy later and viola, everybody everywhere worships nothing at all. Because your minions asked them nicely not to. Twice.
Your minions will need to be charming and knowledgeable, I recommend Bards or that Evangelist PRC.

I think this kind of illustrates my point. All of those things are broken without ever considering whether you can use them to kill gods. You should ban minionmancy not for its god-killing properties, but because it is absurdly overpowered. If people aren't breaking the game, gods are already plenty hard to kill without any additional bans.

[Quertus]

This is supremely self-serving logic, which makes no in-game sense whatsoever. This is a cheap excuse to justify PCs going after gods, simply because the gods have statblocks.

Despite previous claims, statting out a creature does not mean its only purpose is to be killed.


By that logic, no god is indispensable, because gods can all potentially die, so the word has no meaning.
It's kinda reminiscent of Socrates or Plato's ideas that the nature of a knife is to cut, so a dull knife is literally less knife-ish, less successful. While true in a general sense, it's not true in a 'physical laws of nature' way, but you're saying it is.

So yeah, any one god is dispensable. They die, and either
a) Someone would take over their responsibilities, or
b) Someone wouldn't, and it wouldn't matter.

There's never been a "God So-and-so died, and the earthly manifestations of their portfolio are falling apart" scenario. Tenebrous and the Lady of Pain both smoked fools with zero long term fallout for the world.

These responses have nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Let me try again.

If, in order to kill a deity, you have to convince another deity to help you kill that deity, then, if the second deity agrees, then, clearly, the first deity has failed to convince both the world / the party, and the agreeing deity, that they are better than the alternative.

Although I personally do not like this technique of necessitating enlisting divine aid, a) there is prescience for it in the conflicting rules throughout the various editions of D&D; b) it still works with the underlying logic that gods need to do their jobs else they get killed.


And this makes no sense whatsoever. I’ve never seen a campaign where the PCs are the “conscience of the world,” and I’ve certainly never seen that claim presented in any campaign setting.

Perhaps not in a literal sense. But you let your PCs murder monsters, give them difficult moral dilemmas, etc, right? They are the only thing that isn't the GM judging the GM's world.

Why draw the line at murdering gods?


I disagree with Quertus's position and encourage those on the fence to look for other alternatives.

You disagree that it is viable, or disagree that it is preferable?

Because I admit that there are a lot of other alternatives; I just generally find this works best for D&D.


Alternatively, shadow plane travel your way to the real world, get hired by WotC (Teleport Through Time may be required) and write the god(s) dead.

Clearly the best answer.


Edit: It did always strike me as odd that Artifacts created by deities are more pixel click-ey to destroy than deities themselves.
The One Ring MUST go to Mt Doom but in D&D-verse Sauron can just be killed with more dakka and a couple of magical Jedi mind tricks.

Well, artifacts are much more ingrained into the setting than any particular incarnation of "god of war and treachery" or whatever. Being ingrained into the setting is kinda what makes an artifact an artifact. So I don't find this odd at all.

[martixy]

I submit to you the following:

In a game with some reasonable assumptions towards RAI, where the deities are statted up to the current meta(instead of the vanilla printed versions) most of these bans are unnecessary.

Example: Ice assassin possesses a clause requiring a material component in the form of a piece of the creature constructed. In the absence of an abusive reading of RAW, allowing you to pull negligible cost material components from your pouch, regardless of what they may be, this clause provides not only a sufficient safeguard, but one with tremendous plot potential.

It all depends on what is considered "plot armor" - if based on any deviation from rules, I'd peg this entire thread as a Sisyphean effort. Otherwise we need to know where to draw the line.

Regardless of anything, one thing I agree with, is that epic magic mitigation needs to be limited.

[Quertus]

To sum up my concept, to protect deities from PCs killing them, the only thing you have to ban is deities that the PCs want to murder. One simple step, and done.

Unlike all the more nuts and bolts approaches, this "soft skills" solution has the added benefit of being self-correcting: any deities who have failed to meet these criteria will be removed, and replaced with someone (likely a PC) who a) recognizes the importance of doing their job the right way; b) is likely an optimizing munchkin with a better stat block.

It's a win/win scenario. :smallwink:

That having been said, I endorse removing wish abuse, spell component pouch abuse, action economy abuse, and infinite loops / chain gating from the game, for reasons completely independent of the value of deicide.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Example: Ice assassin possesses a clause requiring a material component in the form of a piece of the creature constructed. In the absence of an abusive reading of RAW, allowing you to pull negligible cost material components from your pouch, regardless of what they may be, this clause provides not only a sufficient safeguard, but one with tremendous plot potential.

Honestly, I don't think any part of a deity's body would qualify as 'negligible cost'. Even Pelor's fingernail clippings are going to go for more than 1gp.


To sum up my concept, to protect deities from PCs killing them, the only thing you have to ban is deities that the PCs want to murder. One simple step, and done.

Unlike all the more nuts and bolts approaches, this "soft skills" solution has the added benefit of being self-correcting: any deities who have failed to meet these criteria will be removed, and replaced with someone (likely a PC) who a) recognizes the importance of doing their job the right way; b) is likely an optimizing munchkin with a better stat block.

It's a win/win scenario. :smallwink:

That having been said, I endorse removing wish abuse, spell component pouch abuse, action economy abuse, and infinite loops / chain gating from the game, for reasons completely independent of the value of deicide.

OP did not say PCs, they said mortals.


I don't have a problem with deities being killable per-se; I just don't like the idea that a random mortal who's gotten themselves sufficiently optimized can kill one in direct combat with relative ease.

Your focus on PCs is not actually responding to the question.

[Quertus]

OP did not say PCs, they said mortals.

Your focus on PCs is not actually responding to the question.

Well, fair enough. Still, if the OP's problem is that they've munchkin-sized their NPCs too much, and now "random" mortals threaten their gods, I think they've got bigger problems. Billy Joe farmer should probably not be punching out Thor and calling it Thursday.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm curious as to the perception that any "moderately optimised" character can kill a (n undefined Rank) deity. Just what level of optimisation are you using?

I'm not saying the gods' statblocks are well-built for what they are; I'm not a fool. But being ****tily made and being less powerful than a character level 20 or less are orthogonal.

[Doctor Despair]

I'm curious as to the perception that any "moderately optimised" character can kill a (n undefined Rank) deity. Just what level of optimisation are you using?

I'm not saying the gods' statblocks are well-built for what they are; I'm not a fool. But being ****tily made and being less powerful than a character level 20 or less are orthogonal.

I'd assume they're referring to easy accessed infinite combos or, failing that, ubercharger with epic weapons (which are pretty simple ultimately). Or diplomacers (technically). Or that you can ice assassin the deity twice and kill it out of hand. There are lots of little tricks to beat their stats.

The issue with it is that all of these folks have to circumvent portfolio sense to do so, which is not a "moderate optimization" trick but rather a very obscure reference. There's no reason for a deity to ever walk into a fight they aren't going to win or to let anyone act to set up traps for them or anything of the like.

[Jowgen]

Thank you one and all for your numerous suggestions. I seriously did not expect for this thread to garner this much attention or get as lively as it did.

Based on everything, i believe I have a good shortlist of the worst offenders. I shall also tweak deities themselves abit, mainly in the spirit of Afro-sama's and Malimar-kun's suggestion; i.e. make their existences a bit more multi-dimensional so that killing the stated creature doesn't immediately translate to vanquashing the whole thing in every case.

[edathompson2]

Thank you one and all for your numerous suggestions. I seriously did not expect for this thread to garner this much attention or get as lively as it did.

Based on everything, i believe I have a good shortlist of the worst offenders. I shall also tweak deities themselves abit, mainly in the spirit of Afro-sama's and Malimar-kun's suggestion; i.e. make their existences a bit more multi-dimensional so that killing the stated creature doesn't immediately translate to vanquashing the whole thing in every case.

Just remember, anything the PCs can do, Gods can do better. Most Gods have class levels. Also, limitless access to just about any magic item in the game.

I've personally run 3 games from 1st level into Epic levels. I had a party of 6 players average 28th level take on a rank 0 God from Deities and DemiGods. 3 dropped before they could take it out.

I always tell my players this "I can let you have it, just remember that intelligent monsters will have access to this as well."

A rank 10 God is pretty much impossible. They see into the future and know what you're going to do before they do.

Typically if a Deity has that ability I make the players re-run the combat as many times as the deity has ranks. Usually taking time for the deity to re-prepare for what he faced in combat.

You don't mess with a God unless you are one.

[Doctor Despair]

Just remember, anything the PCs can do, Gods can do better. Most Gods have class levels. Also, limitless access to just about any magic item in the game.

I've personally run 3 games from 1st level into Epic levels. I had a party of 6 players average 28th level take on a rank 0 God from Deities and DemiGods. 3 dropped before they could take it out.

I always tell my players this "I can let you have it, just remember that intelligent monsters will have access to this as well."

A rank 10 God is pretty much impossible. They see into the future and know what you're going to do before they do.

Typically if a Deity has that ability I make the players re-run the combat as many times as the deity has ranks. Usually taking time for the deity to re-prepare for what he faced in combat.

You don't mess with a God unless you are one.

Except if they have used the Xorvintaal rules and God Blooded of Vecna to bypass that sight into the future. Without that foresight, deities get a lot more vulnerable -- even to bards.

[dagfari]

I think we're getting away from the core of the thread - we're here talking about HOW to kill a god, and the real question should be what happens next?

The death of a god is a plot hook to hang your whole epic-level campaign on - or a low-level campaign of new characters caught up in the terror of the days after the event itself. Check out Sword and Sorcery's 'Requiem for a God' sourcebook.

1. All worshippers, clerics, paladins and chosen of that particular god lose their powers instantly. Thousands or millions of worshippers have a personal crisis of faith.

2. Anything that god was maintaining in the world ceases to be maintained (e.g. Mystra's weave in Forgotten Realms)

3. New deities arise to fill the power vacuum, and other deities take it as an opportunity to launch their own holy wars against their rivals.

4. Even worshippers of other gods have a crisis of faith when they realize that their god, too, can be killed.

[edathompson2]

Except if they have used the Xorvintaal rules and God Blooded of Vecna to bypass that sight into the future. Without that foresight, deities get a lot more vulnerable -- even to bards.

Here are the clarifications for both templates.

"Immune: Nobody can learn about a xorvintaal dragon’s future game moves through divination spells.

"A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it. Such divination fails to reveal any information. The Vecna-blooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination."d similar effects. Such effects can still reveal other information about a xorvintaal dragon."

The God's ability to see in the future is an extraordinary ability. Actually it's a feat that a God can take at a certain level. It's not a spell. This would not help you.

[Doctor Despair]

Here are the clarifications for both templates.

"Immune: Nobody can learn about a xorvintaal dragon’s future game moves through divination spells.

"A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it. Such divination fails to reveal any information. The Vecna-blooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination."d similar effects. Such effects can still reveal other information about a xorvintaal dragon."

The God's ability to see in the future is an extraordinary ability. Actually it's a feat that a God can take at a certain level. It's not a spell. This would not help you.

You misquoted Xorvintaal at least; i quoted it earlier, but it says something like "divination spells and similar effects".

Of note for the Vecna abilities is the immunity to divination, yes, but also that all knowledge of the creature vanishes from existence.

When combined, any deity has no way to discover what actions a PC will take -- nor any reason to since it has no knowledge of that PC.

A deity's ability to see into the future is also granted by portfolio sense, which is a function of being a deity, not a feat or salient ability as I recall, but this combo of abilities should foil that, too.

[Mr Adventurer]

Is portfolio sense a similar effect to Divination magic?

It is after all significantly different in several respects, and the wording of the ability doesn't look that open.

Also, Xorvintaal only applies to the Dragon's moves in the Game, it seems - not, as you imply, whatever anything is your character wants to do.

[Doctor Despair]

Is portfolio sense a similar effect to Divination magic?

It is after all significantly different in several respects, and the wording of the ability doesn't look that open.

Also, Xorvintaal only applies to the Dragon's moves in the Game, it seems - not, as you imply, whatever anything is your character wants to do.

Yes, I'd say it's pretty clearly a similar effect as they both reveal information as their fundamental use.

If you make your future actions a part of a dragon's Xorvintaal moves, your future actions become inscrutable. I described this earlier in the thread as well. Since, iirc, Xorvintaal moves are massive things that can span centuries and kingdoms, this isn't even unusual in terms of scope.

[edathompson2]

You misquoted Xorvintaal at least; i quoted it earlier, but it says something like "divination spells and similar effects".

Of note for the Vecna abilities is the immunity to divination, yes, but also that all knowledge of the creature vanishes from existence.

When combined, any deity has no way to discover what actions a PC will take -- nor any reason to since it has no knowledge of that PC.

A deity's ability to see into the future is also granted by portfolio sense, which is a function of being a deity, not a feat or salient ability as I recall, but this combo of abilities should foil that, too.

I didn't misquote anything. I copied and pasted.

Also, I'd read Deities and Demigods if I were you. The ability to see into the future is a feat that a deity can take.

It's also very clear in the book "Dieties and Demigods" when it mentions the abilities of Gods, that no mortal magic or abilities can suppress or affect a God's supernatural or extraordinary ability. Up to and including anti-magic field and mindblank.

So even if I copied and pasted from a wrong area. Those abilities still work.

Now, it's important to understand that Deities and Demigods is a 3.0 book.

[edathompson2]

Yes, I'd say it's pretty clearly a similar effect as they both reveal information as their fundamental use.

If you make your future actions a part of a dragon's Xorvintaal moves, your future actions become inscrutable. I described this earlier in the thread as well. Since, iirc, Xorvintaal moves are massive things that can span centuries and kingdoms, this isn't even unusual in terms of scope.

Portfolio Sense is something EVERY Deity has. Also, it's not a spell. It's nothing like Divination magic. It's like normal sight for a deity. They see everything happening pertaining to their portfolio. It's not a spell, it's an ability that affects their vision like blindsight. The 2 abilities mentioned wouldn't help.


The ability to see what happens in the future is a feat. They simply see what happens as if they were there.

[Doctor Despair]

I didn't misquote anything. I copied and pasted.

The dragons have different versions of that ability. Specifically, two also block "similar effects." You misquoted in that you deliberately (or inadvertantly) ignored the relevant text to the ability I mentioned previously and, instead, quoted a different ability from a different creature.


Also, I'd read Deities and Demigods if I were you. The ability to see into the future is a feat that a deity can take.

Greater deities also get the ability to do it for free for a number of weeks equal to their divine ranks. However, after a cursory glance of both the feats and the divine salient abilities, I'm not seeing the "feat" you're referring to. What is its name?



It's also very clear in the book "Dieties and Demigods" when it mentions the abilities of Gods, that no mortal magic or abilities can suppress or affect a God's supernatural or extraordinary ability. Up to and including anti-magic field and mindblank.
.

As I recall, it is very specific when it says what can't be foiled by mortal magic and abilities. Which page or section are you referencing?

Edit:


Portfolio Sense is something EVERY Deity has. Also, it's not a spell. It's nothing like Divination magic. It's like normal sight for a deity. They see everything happening pertaining to their portfolio. It's not a spell, it's an ability that affects their vision like blindsight. The 2 abilities mentioned wouldn't help.


The ability to see what happens in the future is a feat. They simply see what happens as if they were there.

It is an ability that allows deities to gain knowledge they could not gain with their normal senses. It is granted as a result of their divine ranks and scales in power as it relates to their divine ranks. It is more like divination magic than normal sight. The abilities would help.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, I'd say it's pretty clearly a similar effect as they both reveal information as their fundamental use.

So does looking at something. I'd ask for a higher bar than 'reveals information'.


If you make your future actions a part of a dragon's Xorvintaal moves, your future actions become inscrutable. I described this earlier in the thread as well. Since, iirc, Xorvintaal moves are massive things that can span centuries and kingdoms, this isn't even unusual in terms of scope.

Well, you can't do that. The dragon can.

Furthermore, since it is a game, there are presumably rules, and other players. It may not be enough to simply say 'the dragon makes whatever I do part of its Xorvintaal moves', any more than a Rook can move diagonally in chess. Since the DM is the arbiter of these rules and other players, that puts it pretty firmly in the realm of DM fiat.

[Doctor Despair]

So does looking at something. I'd ask for a higher bar than 'reveals information'.

It does meet a higher bar than that, but regardless, it doesn't need to. It is a similar effect, which is all it needs to be. It doesn't block "divination spells and identical effects."




Well, you can't do that. The dragon can.

Furthermore, since it is a game, there are presumably rules, and other players. It may not be enough to simply say 'the dragon makes whatever I do part of its Xorvintaal moves', any more than a Rook can move diagonally in chess. Since the DM is the arbiter of these rules and other players, that puts it pretty firmly in the realm of DM fiat.

If your actions are part of the dragon's move, then they can't be predicted. Xorvintaal moves often involve other creatures. It's described in the MMV, but the dragon's don't physically go out and do all these things on their own.

The only thing up to DM fiat would be the dragon willingly making your future actions part of its plan. Certainly diplomacy or even roleplay could suffice to accomplish that, but you could be more forceful with various compulsions, or you could make an ice assassin of the dragon and accomplish the feat that way.

[zergling.exe]

It is an ability that allows deities to gain knowledge they could not gain with their normal senses. It is granted as a result of their divine ranks and scales in power as it relates to their divine ranks. It is more like divination magic than normal sight. The abilities would help.


It does meet a higher bar than that, but regardless, it doesn't need to. It is a similar effect, which is all it needs to be. It doesn't block "divination spells and identical effects."

Well portfolio sense is just that, a sense:
Portfolio Sense: The types of events related to its portfolio that the deity senses.
Saying that 'divination spells and similar effects' block it is like saying that ebon eyes doesn't help you see that rogue skulking in the dark because they are part of the xorvinataal dragon's moves. It is enhancing your ability to sense things after all, so clearly it must be blocked.

eit: Hm, maybe blind sight would be a better comparison? It's an extraordinary ability that reveals information exactly like a sense.

[Doctor Despair]

Well portfolio sense is just that, a sense:
Saying that 'divination spells and similar effects' block it is like saying that ebon eyes doesn't help you see that rogue skulking in the dark because they are part of the xorvinataal dragon's moves. It is enhancing your ability to sense things after all, so clearly it must be blocked.

eit: Hm, maybe blind sight would be a better comparison? It's an extraordinary ability that reveals information exactly like a sense.

That's actually a rather poor comparison because that example of a spell and that example of an ability to not yield any information from the future, so would work perfectly fine. If there were a spell or ability, even a naturally acquired ability like blindsight, that allowed someone to see when a rogue would skulk into the dark, then no, it would not yield that information, whether it was magical, extraordinary, innate, or acquired.

Divinity is essentially a template and is heavily structured; it should be treated no different than any other template. It is a very powerful template with enough boons, toys, and powerups without us having to assign it more power because we want it to have more.

[zergling.exe]

That's actually a rather poor comparison because that example of a spell and that example of an ability to not yield any information from the future, so would work perfectly fine. If there were a spell or ability, even a naturally acquired ability like blindsight, that allowed someone to see when a rogue would skulk into the dark, then no, it would not yield that information, whether it was magical, extraordinary, innate, or acquired.

Divinity is a template and is heavily structured; it should be treated no different than any other template. It is a very powerful template with enough boons, toys, and powerups without us having to assign it more power because we want it to have more.

And it is my view that deities ability to see the future work just like any other sense a creature might possess. We do no see eye-to-eye on this, so I will not waste more effort trying to point out how a sense functions like a sense and not like a divination.

[Doctor Despair]

And it is my view that deities ability to see the future work just like any other sense a creature might possess. We do no see eye-to-eye on this, so I will not waste more effort trying to point out how a sense functions like a sense and not like a divination.

It is similar to a sense. It is also similar to a divination. If there were an ability that blocked all senses and similar abilities, it would probably render creatures immune to the portfolio sense, or at least aspects of it. There is an ability that blocks divinations and similar effects, which also pings portfolio sense (at least relating to future events). They are not mutually exclusive.

[martixy]

And it is my view that deities ability to see the future work just like any other sense a creature might possess. We do no see eye-to-eye on this, so I will not waste more effort trying to point out how a sense functions like a sense and not like a divination.

I do however agree with you.

Going back to that multi-dimenional idea people brought up on page 1 - this "sense" is a manifestation of that.

[Doctor Despair]

I do however agree with you.

Going back to that multi-dimenional idea people brought up on page 1 - this "sense" is a manifestation of that.

Xorvintaal and God Blooded of Vecna only work together to stop deities by a strict RAW reading. If we introduce RAI or alter the rules to fit our chosen interpretation of deities, then of course they don't work at all. That's why my recommendation was to ban them entirely if you don't want deities to be killed -- it's a cleaner way to make deities unkillable and doesn't require any additional rebalancing.

[Holya]

Or perhaps we just ask the one and only Red Fel. After all someone whom knows the ins and outs of evil. Is the grand father of to many horrors to be mentioned and is probably Venca in disguise. Just ask em how to kill a god or better yet entire pantheons. So I am doing what should have been done at the beginning.

Red Fel..
Red Fel...
RED FEL!!!

[Red Fel]

Or perhaps we just ask the one and only Red Fel. After all someone whom knows the ins and outs of evil. Is the grand father of to many horrors to be mentioned and is probably Venca in disguise. Just ask em how to kill a god or better yet entire pantheons. So I am doing what should have been done at the beginning.

Red Fel..
Red Fel...
RED FEL!!!

Either I am a god, in which case I'd be telling you how to kill me, or I want to be a god, and telling you how to kill one is a sure way to get them mad at me. In either case, this sounds like the sort of advice that ends badly for me.

Look, you can do what people have already suggested, but it all depends on how the DM plays gods. You can try to kill all of their followers, but unless it's setting-relevant, that might not hurt the deity. You can try to destroy the key aspect of reality that relates to their portfolios, but if your DM doesn't make them oblivious nitwits, they'll notice, generally weeks in advance. You can attempt to gather other gods to crush one, but they probably won't gang up on each other specifically because they want to avoid all-out celestial civil war.

On the other hand, if your DM plays a god as a bag of stats with powers, you could just as easily kill them with HP damage or no-save effects as you could with an Ice Assassin. Do you, chief.

And when you do, leave my name out of it. Some of us prefer to do our scavenging after the last body has hit the floor, thanks.

[Holya]

Either I am a god, in which case I'd be telling you how to kill me, or I want to be a god, and telling you how to kill one is a sure way to get them mad at me. In either case, this sounds like the sort of advice that ends badly for me.

Look, you can do what people have already suggested, but it all depends on how the DM plays gods. You can try to kill all of their followers, but unless it's setting-relevant, that might not hurt the deity. You can try to destroy the key aspect of reality that relates to their portfolios, but if your DM doesn't make them oblivious nitwits, they'll notice, generally weeks in advance. You can attempt to gather other gods to crush one, but they probably won't gang up on each other specifically because they want to avoid all-out celestial civil war.

On the other hand, if your DM plays a god as a bag of stats with powers, you could just as easily kill them with HP damage or no-save effects as you could with an Ice Assassin. Do you, chief.

And when you do, leave my name out of it. Some of us prefer to do our scavenging after the last body has hit the floor, thanks.

Well I've seen you invoked to solve almost every complex issue I've come across on the boards so far. So I figured why not just ask. I mean personally.. My DM plays gods as a mix of stats and fluff. Sure they are stated. Sure you can kill them. Though if you want to kill them you better be ready to really go through with it as killing them without consuming their 'spark/godflesh' means they just reform in a few years or centuries in the astral sea. More so he also uses the good old fluff of the inevitable that were specifically created to stop mortals from attempting to become gods themselves and kill the gods.

But yeah.. Sorry about invoking you on a issue that now since I've reread the entire thread really boils down to DM's choice and a table by table bias.

[Godskook]

My metamagic rule solves a lot of problems in general, but also, conveniently, makes gods less vulnerable to any combo that relies on metamagic. The rule is simple:

"If you can't cast a spell without metamagic reducers, you can't cast it -with- reducers."

The rule in play:

Example 1: A level 6 Wizard with Arcane Thesis(Scorching Ray), Empower, and Arcane Thesis(Lesser Orb of Fire). He can cast Scorching Ray, but not Empowered Scorching Ray even though that "counts" as a 3rd level spell because he -must- be able to cast it without Arcane Thesis to be able to benefit from the feat's power. On the other hand, he can cast an Empowered Lesser Orb of Fire, and prepare it in a 2nd level spot just fine.

Example 2: A level 8 Wizard with Arcane Thesis(Lesser Orb of Frost), Empower, and Maximize. Our cute friend here can cast an Empowered Lesser Orb of Frost, or he can cast a Maximized Lesser Orb of Frost, but he simply can't cast a Maximized Empowered Lesser Orb of Frost because he'd need to be able to cast 6th level spells before he could benefit from reducers on that combination. He can prepare his Empowered spell from a 2nd level slot, or the Maximized spell from a 3rd level slot.

Example 3: A level 10 Cleric with DMM(Persist). He can't use this. At level 11, he can begin persisting cantrips, but he only gets level 1 spells when he hits 13. At those higher levels, the feat works for full benefit on the relevant spells.

[Red Fel]

Well I've seen you invoked to solve almost every complex issue I've come across on the boards so far. So I figured why not just ask. I mean personally.. My DM plays gods as a mix of stats and fluff. Sure they are stated. Sure you can kill them. Though if you want to kill them you better be ready to really go through with it as killing them without consuming their 'spark/godflesh' means they just reform in a few years or centuries in the astral sea. More so he also uses the good old fluff of the inevitable that were specifically created to stop mortals from attempting to become gods themselves and kill the gods.

But yeah.. Sorry about invoking you on a issue that now since I've reread the entire thread really boils down to DM's choice and a table by table bias.

Hey, chief, I'm not faulting you for calling me in on this. Fact is, I'm not as great with crunch as I am with fluff, but mostly I was just making the point that it's really a question of how the deity is run.

That said? Hate to disappoint a fan. So let's see what we can do with this.

Say your DM requires you to kill a deity all the way - consuming the "spark" and all - and has Inevitables to punish mortals who try it. Solution? Don't let the mortals be the ones who try it.

Gods tend to exist in a state of cold war balance - the only reason they don't all go after each other is that it might trigger an all-out celestial war and rip reality a new one. That's what mortals are for. So bridge the gap - befriend a group of deities who have a particular dislike for that one deity, you know there's always one, and offer to be their mortal agent. Do what they need a non-deity to do to justify them going to war with this one deity and nobody else. They get to kill a god they hate and take his "spark," you get to contribute to a deicide. Since you're not the one doing the killing, the Inevitables aren't after you, and since your actions as a mortal set the whole thing off, these deities can't be accused of starting Heaven War III. Best of all, do a good job and they might spare you a few bites of godspark - congrats on your new Rank 0 godhood.

Perhaps most importantly, this bypasses the biggest issue with killing a deity - how your DM plays them. It does so, because your DM also plays the other gods. Get a bunch on your side, do what they want - a good DM loves a chance to throw plot hooks and side quests at you - and the DM has pretty much guaranteed that, if you succeed, a god gets killed.

Short version: Killing a god depends on how your DM plays gods, it's true. But even if he plays them as nigh-unkillable by PCs, he also plays the other gods, and maybe they can do what you can't.

[edathompson2]

And it is my view that deities ability to see the future work just like any other sense a creature might possess. We do no see eye-to-eye on this, so I will not waste more effort trying to point out how a sense functions like a sense and not like a divination.

Yup, I agree.

[Holya]

Hey, chief, I'm not faulting you for calling me in on this. Fact is, I'm not as great with crunch as I am with fluff, but mostly I was just making the point that it's really a question of how the deity is run.

That said? Hate to disappoint a fan. So let's see what we can do with this.

Say your DM requires you to kill a deity all the way - consuming the "spark" and all - and has Inevitables to punish mortals who try it. Solution? Don't let the mortals be the ones who try it.

Gods tend to exist in a state of cold war balance - the only reason they don't all go after each other is that it might trigger an all-out celestial war and rip reality a new one. That's what mortals are for. So bridge the gap - befriend a group of deities who have a particular dislike for that one deity, you know there's always one, and offer to be their mortal agent. Do what they need a non-deity to do to justify them going to war with this one deity and nobody else. They get to kill a god they hate and take his "spark," you get to contribute to a deicide. Since you're not the one doing the killing, the Inevitables aren't after you, and since your actions as a mortal set the whole thing off, these deities can't be accused of starting Heaven War III. Best of all, do a good job and they might spare you a few bites of godspark - congrats on your new Rank 0 godhood.

Perhaps most importantly, this bypasses the biggest issue with killing a deity - how your DM plays them. It does so, because your DM also plays the other gods. Get a bunch on your side, do what they want - a good DM loves a chance to throw plot hooks and side quests at you - and the DM has pretty much guaranteed that, if you succeed, a god gets killed.

Short version: Killing a god depends on how your DM plays gods, it's true. But even if he plays them as nigh-unkillable by PCs, he also plays the other gods, and maybe they can do what you can't.

I have to offer my deepest thanks for the advice. I mean your lawful evil handbook managed to convince my DM to allow evil alignments in general. This helped me arrange for a entire campaign where we try and turn the pantheons against each other one after another till a utterly exhausted pack of deities are left and we are too powerful for the damn Inevitables to do anything. Then once all the gods are eradicated from the material plain we can begin a slow grueling war with the demon lords, arch fiends, and everything else in the multiverse!