When to Introduce Deck of Many Things

[CluFa]

Hello,

My players just utterly burned down a dance party full of fey noble types. Their characters are 9th level, and after Friday night, will be leveling to 10th. I'm very, very tempted to throw a Deck of Many Things in the loot, because what would be more fey than just carrying a Deck of Many Things around for the lols?

Is 10th level too low to introduce one?

Thank you for your time,

CluFa :smallsmile:

[Zancloufer]

IMHO the question as to when to introduce the "Deck of Many Things" isn't so much based off level but on when you want to wreck the current party.

It is nick named the "Deck of Campaign Wrecking" for a reason.

[ATHATH]

IMHO the question as to when to introduce the "Deck of Many Things" isn't so much based off level but on when you want to wreck the current party.

It is nick named the "Deck of Campaign Wrecking" for a reason.
Yeah, I've had a campaign wrecked by it once.

The main problem with the DoMT is that one of two things will happen when you pull a card from it:
A. The card is a negative one, and !@#$s the party (and possibly the campaign) over really badly.
B. The card is a positive one, and gives the party (or worse, an individual character) an amount of power that unbalances the game/campaign, potentially to the point of nigh-unplayability.

I'd recommend putting a Wand of Wonder there instead.

Ooh, maybe add a homebrewed item that can be invoked to cast a random spell on a random valid target within 60 ft. 1/day, with the casting time reduced to a standard action. If the spell requires a material component or a focus, the price of said material components and foci in GP would automatically be taken out of the party's stash of GP, or out of their life forces or something if they don't have enough GP. To prevent abuse, you could make it only usable during an encounter that has a CR of at least the party's ECL-3, with the maximum level of the spell being determined by the CR of the encounter (i.e. a CR 5 encounter might only let the wand produce spells of up to 3rd level), so that the party can't just hand the wand to some level 1 Commoners, tell them to go kill some rats, and get a free wish or something out of it.

[Esprit15]

At the end of a campaign, when you want to have a laugh at the final session. Level is unimportant.

[Zaq]

Personally, I say the best time is never, but I doubt I’ll be listened to in that regard. I do not like the DoMT.

[Psyren]

+1 to both "never" and, failing that, "at the end."

(Obligatory hyperbole) (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/06/28/the-sound-of-a-klaxon)

[CluFa]

Personally, I say the best time is never, but I doubt I’ll be listened to in that regard. I do not like the DoMT.

I'm more than willing to listen. I'm relatively new at GMing, and am kind of doing this by the seat of my pants half the time. And this is my first campaign behind the GM screen. I am curious as to why you're against it.

Thanks,

CluFa :smallsmile:

[ATHATH]

I'm more than willing to listen. I'm relatively new at GMing, and am kind of doing this by the seat of my pants half the time. And this is my first campaign behind the GM screen. I am curious as to why you're against it.

Thanks,

CluFa :smallsmile:
Why did my explanation not suffice?

[Zaq]

Basically, I don't see a good outcome to what happens with a DoMT. ATHATH's explanation is a pretty good one. I don't like the fact that the DoMT has a high chance of basically removing a character from the game, I don't like the fact that it has the chance to cause unnecessary party friction ("I told you that it was stupid to draw from the Deck!" or "Hey, how come you get all the nice toys and all I got was a pile of level drain?" or whatever), and I don't see anything good coming from it.

Sure, it's "traditional," but it's a tradition that hearkens back to a time when generating a new character took five-ten minutes instead of a week of work. I'd put the DoMT in a game of Kobolds Ate My Baby (but, just like others in this thread have said, not until I'm ready to wrap up the game—which means something different in KAMB than in D&D, since KAMB the way I run it is always a one-shot by definition), but I don't feel like there's an upside to using it in the context of modern D&D.

[Captn_Flounder]

I say "Do it!" as long as your players are mature and accept the possible consequences. Personally, I love it when a vampire shows up late into the night and tempts drunk adventurers with fate.

You just have to know your group.

[afroakuma]

Tell you what, give me a bit and I'll whip up something similarly fun but more appropriate. :smallsmile:

[ATHATH]

Tell you what, give me a bit and I'll whip up something similarly fun but more appropriate. :smallsmile:

Ooh, maybe add a homebrewed item that can be invoked to cast a random spell on a random valid target within 60 ft. 1/day, with the casting time reduced to a standard action. If the spell requires a material component or a focus, the price of said material components and foci in GP would automatically be taken out of the party's stash of GP, or out of their life forces or something if they don't have enough GP. To prevent abuse, you could make it only usable during an encounter that has a CR of at least the party's ECL-3, with the maximum level of the spell being determined by the CR of the encounter (i.e. a CR 5 encounter might only let the wand produce spells of up to 3rd level), so that the party can't just hand the wand to some level 1 Commoners, tell them to go kill some rats, and get a free wish or something out of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4

[CluFa]

Basically, I don't see a good outcome to what happens with a DoMT. ATHATH's explanation is a pretty good one. I don't like the fact that the DoMT has a high chance of basically removing a character from the game, I don't like the fact that it has the chance to cause unnecessary party friction ("I told you that it was stupid to draw from the Deck!" or "Hey, how come you get all the nice toys and all I got was a pile of level drain?" or whatever), and I don't see anything good coming from it.

Sure, it's "traditional," but it's a tradition that hearkens back to a time when generating a new character took five-ten minutes instead of a week of work. I'd put the DoMT in a game of Kobolds Ate My Baby (but, just like others in this thread have said, not until I'm ready to wrap up the game—which means something different in KAMB than in D&D, since KAMB the way I run it is always a one-shot by definition), but I don't feel like there's an upside to using it in the context of modern D&D.

Fair enough. You make some excellent points. And since I've never played Kobolds Ate My Baby, I will take your word on that.

Thank you,

CluFa :smallsmile:

[CluFa]

Tell you what, give me a bit and I'll whip up something similarly fun but more appropriate. :smallsmile:

I appreciate the offer so much. But I don't wish you to go to any extra trouble.

The overall consensus seems to be "Just. Don't. Do. It." As I said, I'm a rookie GM, and I will listen to that advice. If I hadn't asked I might have blundered into some pretty rough territory, and life's too short for patching up those kinds of headaches.

Thanks again

CluFa :smallsmile:

[CluFa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4

I love that version to pieces!

CluFa :smallbiggrin:

[CluFa]

I say "Do it!" as long as your players are mature and accept the possible consequences. Personally, I love it when a vampire shows up late into the night and tempts drunk adventurers with fate.

You just have to know your group.

I have a mix of adult players, the age range goes from 55 to 22. I'm confident in my older players with life experience under their belts, but, the young ones are a mixed bag in terms of maturity.

Thank you,

CluFa :smallsmile:

[ATHATH]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[CluFa]

Why did my explanation not suffice?

I appreciate what you wrote. And, thanks to you, and everyone who responded, I was able to reach a decision. I do like to hear more than one opinion when I'm considering things.

Thanks again,

CluFa :smallsmile:

[Captn_Flounder]

I have a mix of adult players, the age range goes from 55 to 22. I'm confident in my older players with life experience under their belts, but, the young ones are a mixed bag in terms of maturity.

Thank you,

CluFa :smallsmile:

If a person knows about the deck and the possibilities therein, they forfeit their right to be upset over the Void card or losing all their wealth.

Every one of my campaigns always has a travelling gambler, often otherworldly or vampire, bored and travelling with his a Deck of Many Things. Mostly found in inns killing time. Participation is strictly optional.

Most players won't play, the ones that do accept the risks. Sometimes you get lucky and get yourself 4 wishes. If a party member can be trusted not to overoptimize beyond the scope of other players, she can be trusted with wishes and not break the game with them. It's not like the list of safe wishes doesn't exist and they have a timer to make them.

Or someone gains/loses a level? Who cares? Are all your PCs dying at the same rate? Because they should be different levels from rezzing. Usually I allow my players to "bank" the xp for the level lost. Don't actually take the level from them, but subtract the xp so it takes them longer to reach the next level. Normally someone dies on every quest we go on. Currently my party members are level 7, 7, 8 and 9.

Or a big budget magic item? My players realize that what's good for one is good for all, so jealousy doesn't really doesn't exist. Or "I got this +5 equivalent weapon, I'll trade my old +3 equivalent for something for player X because she hasn't got anything nice in a minute." Because they understand that ups their survival chances as a unit. WBL be damned. If you, as a DM are unleashing DoMT, WBL is off the table now. If they get strong enough to trivialize encounters due to money, they go and do harder things in search of better things.

Maybe a fortress? Looks more like a giant plot hook to me. Or you let a trusted a NPC advisor run your lands. Or Retire the character to run his kingdom and reroll.

Void Card? You can finish the week as a temporary character, make a new one by the next week. Its no big deal, and it's fun to be someone else after awhile anyways.

Blew up your Wealth? Hopefully you got some gold stashed or some extra things in the Party Loot that weren't worth selling. Had a CN Druid in charge of carrying the party's spare treasures pull this one once. Was hilarious for everyone at the table.

Tends to work better with less "sandbox" style games, better with a clearly defined goal and an open ended path of howto get there. And if you have "competitive" players who don't work together or all want to be the strongest at the table its a bad idea because someone will get upset.

But don't let this board deny you and your party from pulling out one of the most fun and unique items in D&D. As long as everyone realizes that Its just a game and you can't always win everytime, you'll be fine.

[Hurnn]

The answer is never.

[Psyren]

But don't let this board deny you and your party from pulling out one of the most fun and unique items in D&D. As long as everyone realizes that Its just a game and you can't always win everytime, you'll be fine.

It's a question of philosophy really. The Deck is a relic of a bygone time when arbitrary death was expected and new characters didn't take that much time to roll up. As the game rules grew in depth and complexity, being expected to have several backup sheets ready to go to satisfy the old-style DM's sadistic urges became much more of a chore.

There is no single right way to play the game, but it's easy to see why more capricious, "gotcha"-style items fell out of favor as time went on.

[afroakuma]

I appreciate the offer so much. But I don't wish you to go to any extra trouble.

As y'like.

[Mordaedil]

Matthew Mercer did a video on the Deck of Many Things and unless you are willing to accept absolute chaos, you should cheat and give the illusion of randomness to the deck and how to pull that off with a sleight of hand.

[BWR]

As always when this subject comes up, I say: the DoMT is amazing. It's campaign-killing reputation is vastly overblown. Every single bad card except possibly the -2 to all saves can be spun into amazing stories if you just use a little imagination.
In one campaign all starting level characters get a pick. The boring characters pull good cards, the interesting ones pull the bad ones. One of my favorites pulled the Eurayle, Flames, the Rogue, Ruin, and Talons. He started as a prince with lots of wealth and items and social respect before play and at the start he was betrayed, disowned, cast out and abandoned by family and basically fair game for anyone who wanted to kill him. Working his way up from that is a helluva hassle and a helluva character motivation. Another one was the pride of his family, renowned for his skill at arms even as a youngster, pulled the Fool. Since he was 1st level we interpreted it as losing all class and level benefits, being left only with basic everyday knowledge like one language, putting on clothes, using eating utensils and ability scores. Then he had to try to not shame himself or his family with his sudden incompetence, which is not easy for someone in his position. Yet another picked the Void got trapped in the dreams of a god (and it wasn't a pleasant dream) and had to escape on her own.
There are more examples of this kind.
Even some of the good cards can be story seeds, like the Throne (you have a castle now: what does the local lord think of you putting one up on her land?) or the Knight (who is this person, why does he suddenly follow you?).

So introduce the DoMT whenever you want, warn players OOC that some of the results may be unpleasant, but do whatever you can to make the unpleasant results into good adventures. If you treat it like just a collection of bare mechanical effects and never go beyond, it will possibly be boring and unpleasant. If you treat it like an artifact should be treated - with respect and care - and tweak a result here and there, you can have an amazing time.

[the_david]

There's no reason why you couldn't make your own lesser deck of many things. In this case you're not limited to 22 cards. You can make as many positive and negative cards as you want to and you can put a limit on the effects.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fundamental issue with the Deck, perhaps even more than possibility of instant death, is that it will almost certainly create major PC-to-PC power differences. One guy draws the Sun and immediately shoots up several levels; another guy draws the Fool and the Idiot and loses one (or more) levels along with enough Int to leave his Wizard crippled.

Here's the result of a random draw in a generic level 10 party:

Cleric: The Knight-- gains a useless cohort.
Fighter: The Rogue-- the king now wants him dead.
Rogue: The Gem-- gains 50,000 gold, doubling their WBL.
Wizard: The Fool and the Donjon-- loses a level and is imprisoned. Good luck getting them back!

In total, that's one plot hook, one useless benefit, one massive power spike, and one member lost until the group can scrape up an 8th and a 9th level spell. Gooood luck!

But hey, that way fun. Let's try again.

Cleric: The Star-- gains +2 Wisdom
Fighter: The Vizir-- gain the answer to one qustion, any time in the next year. One major mystery automatically solved.
Rogue: The Sun-- Gain a Robe of Scintillating Colors (a cool item, and worth about half their current WBL) and 50,000 experience points, bringing them up to 14th level. Almost 15th.
Wizard: The Fates-- avoid one situation. Enjoy your "get out of death free" card!

All good things this time, but you've just had a plot point or two screwed, and one character gained four levels. Enjoy balancing encounters!

If you want to include a random magic item, I suggest the Rod of Wonder instead.

[Anxe]

I've used it a time or two in my campaigns. What everyone else has said is pretty much true. The Deck will probably radically change where the PCs are at by either giving them vast wealth or killing them. Some might die, some might get tons of stuff, others might get essentially nothing. It doesn't really move the broader narrative you're building forwards. It's definitely fun though! I loved it enough to build a bigger version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?49521-Artifact-Deck-of-Many-Things(Bigger-and-Better)).

If you do decide to introduce it you should decide ahead of time how many uses the PCs get. Not draws, but uses. Each PC declares their draws when they start their use of the Deck. Once the draws are done, they can never use the Deck again. But does the Deck remain with them after that or does it magically teleport away so they can't use it again.
The reason this question is important is due to "evil" use of the deck. The PCs go buy some slaves, kidnap people, or summon monkeys. They get these minions to draw from the deck. Max draws, however many that is. Doesn't matter. The minions draw some amount of wealth. The PCs take the wealth and repeat until they're bored. Some of the minions will die, but they're expendable. Especially the summoned monkeys.
To prevent that type of abuse, the Deck should leave after it has been used X times. X = the number of PCs in your party. If they use it the "evil" way, then they end up with a little bit of extra loot, but not infinite loot. If not... Should be fun and perhaps a bit destructive.

[unseenmage]

+1 to both "never" and, failing that, "at the end."

(Obligatory hyperbole) (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/06/28/the-sound-of-a-klaxon)

Agreeing here.

[afroakuma]

Meh, doing this anyway. A more fey-themed and subdued take on the deck of many things.

Cártaí an Ghrá

Known by many names, the cártaí an Ghrá - the Cards of the Troupe - are a mysterious set of divining cards used in the games of the fey. Possession of these cards allows access to fey magic, but as with all things of the Fair Folk, the cards operate on their terms and by their own arcane rules - and a mortal may not appreciate the results.

All effects produced by the cártaí an Ghrá are treated as supernatural rather than spell-like. The caster level for a given set varies from 10th to 15th (9+1d6). A person who voluntarily draws from the cártaí an Ghrá is not entitled to a saving throw against the effects of a card. Coercing another to draw from the cártaí an Ghrá is a notoriously poor idea; the positive effects, should they manifest at all, vest themselves on the one drawing the card, while any baneful effects haunt the one coercing them instead.

The effects of a card can be removed by a casting of remove curse that beats the deck's caster level; however, in doing so, the remaining duration of the curse is transferred to the person who cast remove curse unless they succeed at a saving throw. Anyone who has a curse from the cártaí an Ghrá removed and tries to draw again will invariably draw the Visitor card.

The cártaí an Ghrá can be destroyed by casting a targeted remove curse on the deck itself, followed by dispel chaos and a successful dispelling check via dispel magic or similar effect. Doing so ends all ongoing effects from that particular deck but draws the attention of fey lords in the region as well as whoever originally created the deck. In the case of entities who have manifested due to the curses of the deck, their attentions may turn to the destroyer of the deck as well.

Using the Deck

To draw from the deck, one merely needs to declare that they are doing so, as well as how many cards they will draw. No more than three cards can be drawn by a single person at any one time, and no one who has drawn any number of cards from any deck of cártaí an Ghrá may do so again until the night of the new moon has come and gone since the last time the effects of the deck on that person ended.

To use the deck as a divination tool, one merely needs to declare that they are doing so and make a Knowledge (arcana) check. Any divination spell of up to 4th level may be performed using cártaí an Ghrá, even if the user is not a spellcaster, with the exception of spells whose target is you and others (spells which exclusively target you or others are acceptable, though your GM may stipulate specific spell exclusions that are thematically inappropriate). The DC to perform cartomancy in this fashion is 15 + 5 per spell level. Using the cártaí an Ghrá in this fashion is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 4 per spell level + 2 per prior save against this effect today) to avoid becoming fatigued. A character who is already fatigued becomes exhausted instead, and an exhausted character cannot use the deck for divination.

To assemble the deck, take the A-2-3-7-J-Q-K of each suit and shuffle together to form a 28-card deck. The deck is always reshuffled after someone has completed their draws.

An Aineolaí, the Innocent Ace of Hearts
When drawn, you are affected as by absurdity for fourteen days.

An t-Amadán, the Buffoon Jack of Clubs
When drawn, you are cursed for fourteen days. Whenever you initiate or join a conversation, there is a 1 in 4 chance that you will be affected as by hideous laughter within 1d6 rounds. Passively listening to a discussion without participating poses a threat after the first minute, with a 1 in 10 chance each minute thereafter of being similarly affected. Others who witness your asinine and braying laughter will have their attitudes toward you shift down one step.

An Ailceimiceoir, the Alchemist King of Clubs
When drawn, the image of the alchemist's flask catches your eye and you reach in to pull it free from the card. The cloudy glass bottle you receive is filled with a deeply-colored fluid that slowly changes hue. When poured forth, this fluid functions as any potion, elixir, oil, solvent, syrup, or other magical liquid of up to 1000 gp in value. The amount of fluid drained from the bottle is equal to the gp value of the liquid being mimicked. The bottle cannot be used to pour out any fluid whose value is greater than that which remains in the bottle. After fourteen days, any liquid remaining within the bottle turns to vinegar.

An Béadánaí, the Gossip Three of Clubs
When drawn, you gain a +2 competence bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks for fourteen days. You are also affected as by open book; the latter effect is permanent.

An Bratach, the Flag Three of Hearts
When drawn, this card mysteriously spills open to reveal a long cloth pennant of fine silk and rich detail (the actual card flutters down almost imperceptibly and rejoins the deck). This pennant functions as a knight's pennon with the abilities of all three colors (red, white, and gold). It loses its magical properties after fourteen days, at which time it remains a beautiful piece of silken art worth 500 gp, though many choose to keep it as a personal sigil - each instance is unique to the person who draws it forth. Magical or not, fey recognize such banners, which are worth a +2 circumstance modifier on Charisma-based checks involving the fey.

An Bréagadoir, the Liar Ace of Clubs
When drawn, you are affected as by compulsive liar for fourteen days. You take a -4 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks, and others take a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks to determine your actual intentions (they will draw mistaken conclusions about obvious lies).

An Cara, the Friend Three of Spades
When drawn, the figure walking along the fey road in this card's artwork takes on your visage. You gain DR 10/cold iron for fourteen days. During this time, weapons of cold iron deal 1d6 extra damage to you.

An Cearrbhach, the Gambler Two of Diamonds
When drawn, the man in the image flips a coin in his hand, which spins ceaselessly. Three times per day for the next fourteen days, you may reroll any d20 roll you have just made before determining the outcome. You must accept the second roll even if it is worse than the first. If the outcome was successful, you gain a +1 luck bonus on further rolls of that type for the rest of the day (attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, etc). Otherwise you take a -1 penalty to further rolls of that type for the rest of the day. The bonus does not stack; the penalty, however, does.

An Ceobhrán, the Mist Seven of Clubs
When drawn, the thin and hazy tendrils of the mist seem to lazily seep forth from the art on the card, gradually wreathing you. Any enclosed space you occupy for more than a minute begins to fill with a fine mist that slowly intensifies into haunting mists over the next ten minutes. You do not need to make saves against this mist, but other creatures have no such protection (DC 16). Well before the mist has reached full strength, it still makes vision increasingly difficult, applying a cumulative -1 penalty to Perception checks involving sight for each minute that has passed and providing a 10% miss chance for anyone attacking a target more than 5 ft. away from them. You will continue being pursued by these mists for fourteen days.

An Cladhaire, the Craven Jack of Spades
When drawn, you are cursed for fourteen days. Whenever you roll initiative, you are affected as by qualm. You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. Others who witness your faltering in battle or in the face of a fear effect will have their attitudes toward you shift down one step.

Na Claimhte, the Swords Two of Spades
When drawn, this card seems to widen to admit your hand as you reach through it to grasp one of the fine blades depicted in its artwork, but as you draw it back through the frame of the card, you see a shadowy figure in the dark recesses of the artwork grip the other and pull it into the void. The weapon you draw forth is your favored kind - your preferred bow, sword, polearm, whatever it may be - and possessed of a +5 enchantment (including at least two weapon properties - this weapon's enhancement bonus is not greater than +3). It is unbreakable, and anyone but you who attempts to wield it suffers 2d6 damage and immediately drops the weapon. Somewhere within 10+1d20 miles, an adversary of comparable strength to you acquires a similar weapon, placed in their reach in the darkest hour of night. The weapon is of the same kind, but may possess a different set of enchantments following the rules above. This adversary is affected as by nondetection and can sense you as per locate creature, and wishes to do you harm as quickly as it is able, by any means it can. If either of you strikes down the other, both weapons explode into glassy black shards and vanish. After fourteen days, these effects end and the two weapons lose their enchantments, becoming masterwork items.

An Cuairteoir, the Visitor Ace of Spades
When drawn, you are affected as by nightmare for fourteen nights. Anyone interfering with this curse will draw the hostile attentions of a bogeymanB3 with the fiendish template. At the end of this curse, the person who bore it last acquires some minor physical sign of the traumatic sleepless nights, such as a prematurely white lock of hair, a scarred lip, a tremor in the hand, or an iris that has changed color. This effect is instantaneous and cannot be dispelled or removed without powerful magic such as wish or miracle.

An Damhán Alla, the Spider Two of Clubs
When drawn, you are affected as by spider climb. Your hands are not required to be free to use this ability. Once per day as a standard action, you may touch a surface to unleash a web spell centered on your square. You are not affected by web and related effects. These benefits end after fourteen days.

An Deideighe, the Bauble Ace of Diamonds
When drawn, the small gilded object depicted in the art of the card "rolls" out of the surface and drops into your hand. This bauble functions as a dark blue rhomboid ioun stone and can be used as an alluring golden apple (DC 16) once per hour (the bauble is not consumed by being put to this purpose, though it cannot act as an ioun stone while doing so). After fourteen days, the magic and lustre of the bauble fade, leaving a trinket worth 100 gp.

An Duine Caillte, the Lost One Seven of Spades
When drawn, you gain a 60 ft. aura that automatically affects others as hidden presence, friend and foe alike. Any action you take which would break the effect or allow a Will save instead suppresses the effect until one minute has gone by without you taking any further such action (so, for example, one minute after the last time you have attacked a creature, the effect resumes). Anyone attempting to remember your presence during this time to communicate with you while they cannot perceive you must make a Will save (DC 18) or forget that you're around. Those hostile to you who you have attacked while under this effect remember you with total clarity, anticipating further hostilities and gaining a +4 bonus to initiative for future encounters. This aura lasts for fourteen days.

An Duine Ceilte, the Hidden One Queen of Clubs
When drawn, you are affected as by nondetection for fourteen days.

An Duine Cumasach, the Capable One Queen of Diamonds
When drawn, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your highest ability score for fourteen days. Those within 60 feet who are hostile toward you get a +1 morale bonus on checks and rolls involving that ability score as they seek to outdo you.

An Duine Dathúil, the Comely One Jack of Hearts
When drawn, you are affected as by seducer's eyes for fourteen days. Your appearance draws attention and notice. Those who might see you as a romantic rival will have their attitudes toward you shift down one step.

An Duine Mórga, the Gracious One Queen of Hearts
When drawn, cancels the effect of any one other card affecting you, or acts as break enchantment, remove curse and restoration.

An Duine Saibhir, the Wealthy One King of Diamonds
When drawn, the gilded cup of the figure in this card's artwork tips forward, spilling coins and precious gems through the card and into your hands. The total value of the coins and jewels is approximately 5000 gp.

An Flaisc, the Prodigal Three of Diamonds
When drawn, you are affected as by aristocrat's nightmare for fourteen days. The depreciating effect extends to nonmagical objects of value, which lose 10% of their original value each time you touch them. Nonmagical jewels and gemstones resist the effect slightly better, losing only 5% of their original value when you touch them. This effect is particularly insidious and will likely go unnoticed for the first 1d4 days, as it also makes you particularly fascinated by your wealth and by things of value and diminishes value in subtle ways at the outset. Many are the fools who draw this card and think they have gotten the best of the fey because "nothing has happened."

An Ghoimh, the Chill Seven of Hearts
When drawn, you are affected as by unshakable chill for fourteen days. You are required to continue making saving throws against the severe cold as long as you are exposed to temperatures below 75 degrees Fahrenheit, approximately the strength of a good campfire, hearth, or warm stove, and you will not feel warm at anything less than 85 degrees. Substantial warm clothing, such as cold weather clothing, can help reduce the save intervals as it would for severe cold conditions.

An Leannán, the Lover Two of Hearts
When drawn, this card calls forth a fey creature similar to a nymph, but taking the form of your ideal romantic partner. You are affected as by reckless infatuation and charm monster with regard to this creature, who may appear anytime within the next 1d4 days. The fey creature is a willing and eager participant in your torment but will grow bored 2d4+1 days after meeting you and depart. This curse requires both remove curse and break enchantment to put aside, and will break entirely rather than threatening to transfer to the caster if the fey creature has already encountered the person who drew the card. The effects of this curse last for fourteen days.

An Laoch, the Hero King of Hearts
When drawn, the wild and heroic figure depicted on this card seems to swell and grow in size, expanding out from the frame of the card and emerging in corporal form. This entity is a bralani azata with the fey creature templateB3. It will serve as your boon companion and loyal bodyguard for fourteen days. The hero is overly protective at times and will act with hostility to anyone it perceives as rude or ungracious to you, including friends. The hero is not obliged to follow any instruction you give it and will freely attack those it feels have offended you. If you attack it or otherwise drive it away, the hero will reappear the next morning bearing a gift it hopes will make amends. Sometimes this is an offering of food or a token of its efforts - a deer it has hunted, perhaps. Sometimes it makes more unfortunate decisions. The fey will look with great disfavor for a year and a day (-4 penalty on Charisma-based checks to deal with fey) on anyone who slays a hero.

An Máistir Na Seilg, the Master of the Hunt King of Spades
When drawn, you are affected as by nondetection for fourteen days. Unfortunately, you also become the quarry of the Wild Hunt for fourteen days. During this time, you will begin to notice the sounds of unearthly hounds, growing closer over 1d3 days. For these first days, packs of yeth hounds will attack any being pursuing you or that approaches within 120 feet of you in a wilderness environment. During the following 1d3 days, however, a pack of yeth hounds will begin hunting you every night. Subsequently, on the next 1d3 nights you will be attacked by a pack of shadow mastiffs as well, which may or may not arrive with the yeth hounds. The following 1d3 nights may see various fey joining the hunt, including animals and magical beasts with the fey creature template. After this point, each night that passes sees a single Wild Hunt houndB6 join the hunt. Unlike previous nights, whose participants act only in that night, each Wild Hunt hound continues to pursue you individually from the first night it joins the hunt until the fourteen days are over. If these hounds are slain, it may draw the interest of other, more dangerous members of the Wild Hunt.

All creatures participating in the Wild Hunt actively dissuade or outright attack anything that is pursuing or attempting to harm you which is not part of the Wild Hunt. Thus, this card may at first be a blessing, until your new pursuers demonstrate that they pose more threat. Those who survive to the end of the Hunt may find a gift from the Master waiting for them in the morning - often a sack of silver and gold worth anywhere from 5000 to 10000 gp, or a magical token, or the pelt or horns of some fabulous beast. Of course, rare is the time that this gift does not come with an inscription: "Until the horns sound again!"

An Scáil, the Reflection Seven of Diamonds
When drawn, you see your reflection in the mirrored surface of the card, and when you look up an illusory double is standing there. You may have it follow you (acting as mirror image, but a single image only), remain in place (acting as major image for up to one hour without concentration), or undertake a task requiring no more than an hour to do (acting as unseen servant, but visible and resembling you exactly). A new reflection will appear next to you every hour. A reflection is capable of basic conversation in languages you speak, but has a very narrow pool of reactions drawn from your recent experiences and cannot tap any information requiring a Knowledge check. Reflections continue to appear even while you are resting, and if you are not conscious to direct them then they will go off and do as they like. This effect continues for fourteen days, but may be stopped early by tasking a reflection to stare into a reflective surface.

An Stíobhard, the Steward Jack of Diamonds
When drawn, the figure depicted on this card nods and winks at you, holding up a bowl, a cloth, and a knife. At any time over the next fourteen days, you may as a standard action make a limited wish without required components. You may do this up to three times. Whenever you invoke this ability, the request you make is carried out by a phantasm in the image of the figure from the card. At the end of fourteen days, a 1000 gp diamond will appear in the heel of your shoe for each unused limited wish.

The Steward expects to serve three duties: to provide, to manage, and to remove. A request which supplies you with something you did not have or restores something lost (including healing) qualifies as providing. A request which assists you with a task or accomplishes some non-violent objective on your behalf (opening a sealed door, securing a rope bridge) qualifies as managing. A request which involves deliberate and potentially lethal harm to another being qualifies as removing. These are marked by the bowl, the cloth, and the knife. The Steward will be displeased if asked to perform two services in the same category, and may alter the desired limited wish when so piqued in order to get back at its master. If the Steward is not asked to perform one service in each category, it is permitted to use one limited wish of its own at the conclusion of its service, and may very well use it to get back at the master. This is almost always the case with Stewards who are denied an opportunity to perpetrate violence.

An Banríon Na Uamhan, the Queen of Terror Queen of Spades
When drawn, this card appears blank to you, though others see a depiction of a horrific figure. Whosoever draws this card has attracted the attentions of the "Queen of Terror," a horrific fey that exists to persecute, terrify, and ultimately destroy. Animals grow silent and fearful and the skies rumble with the distant thunder of her hooves. The "Queen of Terror" is a nuckelaveeB3 with the dread lordHA, fey creatureB3 and implacable stalkerHA templates. Her domain is centered on the one who has drawn this card at all times; if you move beyond the borders in some fashion (such as via teleportation), the "Queen of Terror" vanishes from her current location, manifesting inside the new boundary within 3d20 minutes. The creature is accompanied by wraiths with the fey template (treat as fey, not as undead, with Constitution scores equal to Charisma scores), who will make 1d4 initial attempts to slay the one who drew the card in groups of 3-6. These attempts may be conducted over a couple of hours or a couple of days. If these servants fail, the "Queen of Terror" will soon arrive. She is always accompanied by two more of her wraith servants; all of these wraiths are extensions of her will and fight to the death.

This creature is nigh-inescapable; only her penchant for causing absolute fear slows her down in any way. The one targeted by the "Queen of Terror" may seek the mercies of a powerful fey lord or lady, who can convince the creature to depart. Of course, to do so may be to leap out of the frying pan and into the fire. The curse is almost impossible to put aside - remove curse will only attract her attentions, instantly causing her to teleport up to five miles closer to her intended victim, while break enchantment does nothing. Dispel chaos or dispel evil can buy one day's reprieve from her attentions, but at the expense of adding an extra day to the curse's duration. Other fey creatures may help the prospective victim meet with a fey lord or lady, but there will inevitably be a price to pay for such aid - something the victim treasures dearly, or a service to render which will be carried out under a geas.

The curse of the "Queen of Terror" lasts thirteen days. It can be put aside by a wish or miracle.

Hope someone can have some fun with this.

Note: B3 = Pathfinder Bestiary 3, B6 = Pathfinder Bestiary 6, HA = Horror Adventures. All material available through d20pfsrd.com

[tomandtish]

I'm at work so can't look for it now, but Dragon also did the Tarot of Many Things at one point (issue 77). There's a random generator for it here (http://www.mithrilandmages.com/utilities/TOMT.php).

Part of the interesting thing about the Tarot was the effect changes depending on whether you draw the card reversed or not.

[Eldan]

Hmmm. I had an idea.

I'd say the most interesting cards in the deck are probably those that don't directly do anything, except introduce a plot hook like "major NPC now wants you dead".

What would people think of a full tarot deck of plot hooks like that, called something like the "deck of fate"? Could probably be written pretty easily from the standard tarot deck meanings. Just more along the lines of "A formerly faithful friend will betray you" or "You will gain an object of power that is a great burden" or "A former enemy has a change of heart".
Really, more of a plot inspiration for the DM than anything else, now that I think about it...

[BWR]

Hmmm. I had an idea.

I'd say the most interesting cards in the deck are probably those that don't directly do anything, except introduce a plot hook like "major NPC now wants you dead".


I refer you to my earlier post.

[Eldan]

I saw that, yes. It doesn't quite answer my question, though. I'm not a fan of players suddenly gaining or losing levels, or the precise rules effects being specified. That's why I'm asking if only vague prompts for the DM to spin into stories might work better.

[Anxe]

The Tarot of Many Things that tomandtish linked seems to be pretty close to what you're saying. You could also just roll on the plot hook generator in the DMG, but that tends to not be as personal as a magically enforced Tarot reading.

[BWR]

I saw that, yes. It doesn't quite answer my question, though. I'm not a fan of players suddenly gaining or losing levels, or the precise rules effects being specified. That's why I'm asking if only vague prompts for the DM to spin into stories might work better.

At this point there isn't any point to the DoMT, is there? It would be merely GMs making up story hooks like they do all the time. The entire point of the Deck is that it introduces powerful and potentially upsetting mechanical elements to the game. My opinion is that while the mechanics can be fiddled with a bit and story seeds should follow a draw, the mechanics have to be there.

The Tarot Deck, like the standard Deck, can be used for story hooks or can be taken purely (and bpringly) mechnically. I've used both. In fact, the only item like this I've never storied up the results on is the Wheel of Fortune.

[rel]

The deck works if the game is about exploring the world while ammassing wealth and power. The game should also feature a large roster of players and an even larger roster of characters with a large variance in power forming more or less randomly into parties as circumstances demand.

In that kind of setup the deck of many things is a fun item of no great consequence. It can show up pretty much any time.

Bad events kill one of your numerous characters in an amusing way; oh well, you have a lot of characters, you switch to a backup and move on.

Good events boost a characters power; said character can now join the high level groups and go on high level adventures.


The deck does not work if the game is about a fixed group of characters that are expected to survive long term, make a mark on the world and achieve some specific goal or experience a specific story.

Such a game usually does not allow for player characters being swapped out so bad effects are distruptive to the games fun as a lost character is often required for NPC interaction and so forth.

Further, such games often have fixed villains so good effects are equally distruptive as they damage the games balance.

[El Dorado]

The harrow deck of many things looks fun. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/deck-of-many-things-harrow/

[Sayt]

I've had a campaign where we were given an opportunity to draw from the Harrow Deck of Many Things. Or didn't wreck the game, but it did complicate things.

My character gained a pack of hapless morons, a once ever 'change Amy decision you ever made' trump card, Anna the opportunity to make a piece of random loot useful. And got a once ever Scry opportunity. (Owl, forge, uprising.)

The witch ended up large and got a scry, the tiefling became a were-buzzard and got dumber, and the Oracle got a Djinn wife and a holy avenger in a can.

[Draconi Redfir]

as someone who was a player in a campain in wich a DOMT was introduced, i'd say keep it simple. allow each player the choice of zero, one, or two cards. once they make that choice, they draw, and once everyone has drawn, the deck goes away. you get no more, and the deck is gone. then what you drew or didn't draw is what you get.

main issue with the deck is using it non-stop really.

i drew one car and it made me add +2 to two ability scores, then swap them. i had 12 wisdom and 10 dexterity, so i added two to those, and swapped them around, keeping my wisdom exactly the same, and getting a +4 bonus to my dexterity :P

[BWR]

[QUOTE=Draconi Redfir;22513351] allow each player the choice of zero, one, or two cards. once they make that choice, they draw, and once everyone has drawn, the deck goes away. you get no more, and the deck is gone. then what you drew or didn't draw is what you get.

main issue with the deck is using it non-stop really.
/QUOTE]

Um, other than the limit on how many you can initially choose to draw, that's how the deck works by RAW (barring the Fool and the Jester). It may or may not disappear but you can never draw from that particular deck again.

[Yahzi]

As others have said: at the end of your campaign.

Fortunately, the Deck is fool-proof; whenever you introduce will be the end of your campaign. Isn't that nice?

(Seriously - it robs all player agency and makes the fates of the characters purely random. Why not sit down during character generation in session 1 and roll a D20 to see if your character becomes king or dies in a gutter? That's what the Deck reduces the game to.)

[BWR]

As others have said: at the end of your campaign.

Fortunately, the Deck is fool-proof; whenever you introduce will be the end of your campaign. Isn't that nice?

(Seriously - it robs all player agency and makes the fates of the characters purely random. Why not sit down during character generation in session 1 and roll a D20 to see if your character becomes king or dies in a gutter? That's what the Deck reduces the game to.)

Except it doesn't. Never has in my experience. I suspect this whole 'ruins the game' reputation comes about much the same way you get rumors like paladins are horrible people/DMs hate paladins, nothing is worth playing other than 9th level casters, rogues are useless, etc. etc. etc.: by people who have no clue how to handle it properly.

[Psyren]

Well if I put my mind to it, I could probably come up with pretty creative solutions to cards like Donjon, Void, Talons, Ruin, Rogue, Flames etc. that both wouldn't derail my campaign or be cheap copouts to cards I didn't like. I could do that. But speaking for myself, I'd rather spend that time on advancing my plot in ways that don't revolve around an artifact I didn't need to bother shooting myself in the foot with in the first place.

[Caedes]

Alooo All!

*dusts off her story telling robes*

I am fortunate to have been playing with the same people for many years and the DOMTs has come up several times. It often time has been used at the end of a campaign as a "reward for that group of players and much fun was had.

Much more rare is when it has had a positive effect mid campaign. For many of the reasons listed here. Though I will add the negative of throwing in a random plot hook. Not that the DM has to listen or even pay attention to it. But it can turn their planning upside down as well. But with the balancing out of party encounters on the whole... This is a recipe for making you as a newbie DM kinda hate yourself.

Now, I have brought the DOMT into a couple games mid-campaign as-is and had a blast. With two caveats.

First, as the DM I was fully prepared for the chaos.

Second, when people drew cards it did not only affect them but the whole party. So, if one player draws death. Everyone fights their own incarnation of death. One person draws lose all your magic items. Everyone loses their magic items. etc. etc. etc.

But either way. The moment the Deck enters into your players hands. The game is typically going to change. And if you are not ready for it. Then you may just be starting a new campaign soon.

So in short. Follow your heart, and have fun!

[Pex]

Never. It's a trap. Especially in Pathfinder anything a good card gives a PC can get on his own through normal adventuring. Leadership feat for the knight. Always getting wealth, magic items, and XP. Buy land and build a Keep. Ability score boosting items. A Wish is patient waiting for high level play when the wizard can cast it or the cleric casts Miracle. Undo harmful effect - there are class abilities that allow/force rerolls. Get the Answer - metagame prevents the need for it. There is always a solution to any problem even if it takes time to research. The game will end if the DM provides a situation the party cannot ever deal with but must deal with or else there's no game.

[Pugwampy]

Never. It's a trap. Especially in Pathfinder anything a good card gives a PC can get on his own through normal adventuring.

Actually i find the pathfinder deck to be far more favorable to players when compared to 3.5


Its a game killer . When you feel like ending your game is when you bring it . :smallbiggrin: .

Although if you feel a little bit insane you could remove the bad cards and let everyone grab a card at level one . You could be mean to the vets who refuse such things and NOT tell em you removed the bad ones .

[Yahzi]

Except it doesn't. Never has in my experience.
It's destroyed every game I've used it in.


by people who have no clue how to handle it properly.
Passive-aggressive "I'm a better DM than you" is kind of unattractive.

The Deck as written robs player agency, turn both rewards and punishments into random events instead of consequences of actions. Sure, you can "handle it properly" by neutering it, changing its interpretation, or just... you know... not using it in the first place.

[BWR]

It's destroyed every game I've used it in.


So if A claims 'X is always bad because it messed my stuff up' and B claims 'I've had games where it works just fine, so it doesn't always mess stuff up, it depends on how you use it', which one is right, assuming both are truthful?



Passive-aggressive "I'm a better DM than you" is kind of unattractive.

The Deck as written robs player agency, turn both rewards and punishments into random events instead of consequences of actions. Sure, you can "handle it properly" by neutering it, changing its interpretation, or just... you know... not using it in the first place.

Not so much passive aggressive (a term which sees far too much use these days) as directly insulting. Unattractive or not, it may actually be the case in this instance.
This whole 'player agency' thing is a misuse of the term. Agency is the ability to make choices for your characters, nothing more, nothing less. The results of those choices can be anything, and from stuff you like to stuff you don't like. Unless you face a Red Jester, merely introducing a DoMT does not force anyone to draw a card. If you draw a card you are willingly taking a chance that something you do may have unpleasant consequences. Deal with it.
You can handle it properly without neutering it as well, which is my entire point. You can handle it by doing more than the absolute basic RAW reading. RAW in almost every case is minimal and fricking boring and going full RAWtard leads to TO stupidity. The game has always been about using your head to make stuff fun, using the rules as inspiration and aids rather than pointless restriction. If you can take something like the Deck and make the bad stuff fun without nerfing it or altering beyond recognition, why the hell not do that?