Hellfire Glaivlock

[Asmotherion]

So, it's been a wile since I played a 3.5 campain. A player in my group Decided to DM in one, so I decided to play a Warlock.

I know the basic build I'll follow; Warlock 12 (I just love to create items), Binder 2 for Neberius, Hellfire Warlock 3, Uncanny Trickster 3.

Here are some questions:

A) We'll be starting at level 15. I'm not sure if it's worth taking the Half Fiend Template for the amazing Bonuses, or leave it for a pure build. I think I'll be playing an Elf or Half Elf; I just want to avoid any -Cha, as I still want to use other Invocations and the Cone Shape Eldritch Blast from time to Time.

B) The second level of Binder is for Suppres Sign; That said, I do like Neverius' Voice so I think I'll leave it for the 20th level... it's also up to debate/change.

C) I Definitelly want the Darkness/Darkvision invocations for RP reasons, as well as the Flight one. I also have the Glave one as a sure option and Brimstone Blast. I am considering taking the Vitriolic one, but I want to know if the Acid that ignores SR affects the whole EB+Hellfire Blast Damage, or just the extra damage of EB?

D) Is there any way to gain more attacks with Eldritch Glaive? I've heard of Eldritch Claws combo with monk but I'm not sure of how many levels of monk need to be invested, and I believe it's probably a very different build than what I have in mind... Either way I'm not willing to trade more than one level.

Thank you all in advance. :)

[ATHATH]

Are you sure that you don't want to take levels in Anima Mage (which will advance both your Warlock stuff and your Binder stuff)? If you play your cards right, you can sneak into it at 3rd level with minimal amounts of cheese.

[Asmotherion]

Are you sure that you don't want to take levels in Anima Mage (which will advance both your Warlock stuff and your Binder stuff)? If you play your cards right, you can sneak into it at 3rd level with minimal amounts of cheese.

I'm not even sure what that is XD I'm sure I've heard it before but it's the limit of my memory. As I said, It's been a wile since I've been on 3.5. Could you please elaborate on what that would accomplish?

[ATHATH]

I'm not even sure what that is XD I'm sure I've heard it before but it's the limit of my memory. As I said, It's been a wile since I've been on 3.5. Could you please elaborate on what that would accomplish?
It's like a Mystic Theurge, but for Binders and Arcane spellcasting classes. Fortunately for us, Warlock stuff is progressed by stuff that advances Arcane spellcasting (IIRC).

[Nifft]

It's like a Mystic Theurge, but for Binders and Arcane spellcasting classes. Fortunately for us, Warlock stuff is progressed by stuff that advances Arcane spellcasting (IIRC).

Mmmm.



Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells


That's not one of the prereqs that a Warlock's invocations can meet for.


Anima Mage is a great class, but it would require a bit of a re-write to work for an Invocation class -- both the prereqs and the class features.

[ATHATH]

Mmmm.



That's not one of the prereqs that a Warlock's invocations can meet for.


Anima Mage is a great class, but it would require a bit of a re-write to work for an Invocation class -- both the prereqs and the class features.
Ah, but you see, that's why you take the Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice feats at first level. The class features not working with most Warlock invocations doesn't really matter much to us; they're nice, but they're not what we took the class for.

Here's a better explanation for/on how to slide into Anima Mage at 3rd level:

You could even be both a Warlock and a Binder at the same time. Be a human with two flaws and take 1 level of Binder, the Improved Binding feat, the Magical Training feat, the Precocious Apprentice feat, and a metamagic feat. Take a level in Warlock as your second level and head into Anima Mage (which can advance Warlock casting) at third level. After you finish Anima Mage, consider heading into Hellfire Warlock- it synergizes incredibly well with Naberius (a vestige). After taking all 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock, consider finishing your build off with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion, which can progress your Hellfire Warlock super-damage past the normal 3 level limit of the class (Hellfire Warlock).

[Nifft]

So, it's been a wile since I played a 3.5 campain. A player in my group Decided to DM in one, so I decided to play a Warlock.

I know the basic build I'll follow; Warlock 12 (I just love to create items), Binder 2 for Neberius, Hellfire Warlock 3, Uncanny Trickster 3.

Here are some questions:

A) We'll be starting at level 15. I'm not sure if it's worth taking the Half Fiend Template for the amazing Bonuses, or leave it for a pure build. I think I'll be playing an Elf or Half Elf; I just want to avoid any -Cha, as I still want to use other Invocations and the Cone Shape Eldritch Blast from time to Time.

B) The second level of Binder is for Suppres Sign; That said, I do like Neverius' Voice so I think I'll leave it for the 20th level... it's also up to debate/change.

C) I Definitelly want the Darkness/Darkvision invocations for RP reasons, as well as the Flight one. I also have the Glave one as a sure option and Brimstone Blast. I am considering taking the Vitriolic one, but I want to know if the Acid that ignores SR affects the whole EB+Hellfire Blast Damage, or just the extra damage of EB?

D) Is there any way to gain more attacks with Eldritch Glaive? I've heard of Eldritch Claws combo with monk but I'm not sure of how many levels of monk need to be invested, and I believe it's probably a very different build than what I have in mind... Either way I'm not willing to trade more than one level. You can get more attacks by having a higher BAB. For you with your fancy UMD features, having a higher BAB means you probably want an item which lets you cast divine power.

I'd skip the 2nd level of Binder. You're going to talk like Harvey Fierstein while blasting for an extra +1d6 damage, or an extra +2d6 damage if you put the free level into Hellfire progression.

Consider the teleport power instead of flight. You can buy a wand of overland flight and that might last you your whole career, or at higher levels you can pick up one of the grafts that the martial types use for flight (Fiendish Feathered Wings are good if you're Evil; also this flight continues working in an antimagic field instead of making you drop like a water balloon). Teleporation with an illusory decoy is a trick that's much more difficult to emulate. If you're going to go heavy into darkness & concealment, the decoy becomes more effective.

The vitriolic invocation turns your blast into acid. The hellfire blast ability turns your blast into hellfire. Are these compatible? Rules don't say they're mutually exclusive, but the Hellfire Warlock text sure sounds like they'd be incompatible. Talk to your DM.

The advice about using Legacy Champion for 4 levels instead of Uncanny Trickster for 3 might be good, unless you're actually going to use the skill tricks & skill points of Uncanny Trickster.


You could even be both a Warlock and a Binder at the same time. Be a human with two flaws and take 1 level of Binder, the Improved Binding feat, the Magical Training feat, the Precocious Apprentice feat, and a metamagic feat. Take a level in Warlock as your second level and head into Anima Mage (which can advance Warlock casting) at third level.

That's the sort of thing that you need to clear with your DM ahead of time, because frankly it's more dubious than Mr. Duby dubbing dub-step in Dubai with a double doobie.

[ATHATH]

That's the sort of thing that you need to clear with your DM ahead of time, because frankly it's more dubious than Mr. Duby dubbing dub-step in Dubai with a double doobie.
It's not that dubious, IMO. I recommend asking your DM if you can do it, just to be safe. Just try to not present it as something ultra-cheesy (which it isn't) that you're begging the DM to let you use so that you can break the/his game (which it won't let you do). If he needs extra convincing, I suggest mentioning the amazing (default) flavor that the combination produces.

[skunk3]

So, it's been a wile since I played a 3.5 campain. A player in my group Decided to DM in one, so I decided to play a Warlock.

I know the basic build I'll follow; Warlock 12 (I just love to create items), Binder 2 for Neberius, Hellfire Warlock 3, Uncanny Trickster 3.

Here are some questions:

A) We'll be starting at level 15. I'm not sure if it's worth taking the Half Fiend Template for the amazing Bonuses, or leave it for a pure build. I think I'll be playing an Elf or Half Elf; I just want to avoid any -Cha, as I still want to use other Invocations and the Cone Shape Eldritch Blast from time to Time.

B) The second level of Binder is for Suppres Sign; That said, I do like Neverius' Voice so I think I'll leave it for the 20th level... it's also up to debate/change.

C) I Definitelly want the Darkness/Darkvision invocations for RP reasons, as well as the Flight one. I also have the Glave one as a sure option and Brimstone Blast. I am considering taking the Vitriolic one, but I want to know if the Acid that ignores SR affects the whole EB+Hellfire Blast Damage, or just the extra damage of EB?

D) Is there any way to gain more attacks with Eldritch Glaive? I've heard of Eldritch Claws combo with monk but I'm not sure of how many levels of monk need to be invested, and I believe it's probably a very different build than what I have in mind... Either way I'm not willing to trade more than one level.

Thank you all in advance. :)

A) Personally, I wouldn't go with the half-fiend templace as a +4 LA is just... ouch. Most of your abilities as a Warlock don't really rely on CHA. Warlock is one of those classes that can be played with almost any ability scores, especially once you can afford to buy gear that amps up your scores. Cone Shape for the blast seems cool in theory but keep in mind that it only is really effective vs. mobs of enemies that have crappy reflex saves since everyone gets to attempt a save for half damage, and EB damage isn't all that great to begin with... plus it is a greater invocation and there's lots of invocations in that tier that are worth considering.

B) I personally find Binder super cheesy for the purpose of spamming hellfire. I know that *technically* it does work but first of all, it's from MoI, and that's really a rarely-used supplement to begin with. Second, as a DM I'd want to have a damn good reason / explanation for taking Binder... not just "so I can spam hellfire." On this board a lot of people suggest it but to me it's always been a pretty lame optimization tactic, since the entire point of Hellfire Warlock is that it the abilities come at a price. Just my 2 cents.

C) Darkness is meh as an invocation. See the Unseen is very handy. Fell Flight is decent, but your flight speed = your land speed, so honestly I think you'd be better off just buying a magical item that gives you better flight and saving that invocation choice for something else. My Warlock currently has Fell Flight and I am constantly annoyed by how other characters in my party can fly much better than I can... but then again they DID have to spend quite a bit of money to be able to do so, so really it's just a matter of cost-benefit analysis. It's definitely good at lower levels. Eldritch Glaive can be awesome but you really kinda need to build around it to make it shine, which I think you plan on doing. As far as Vitriolic Blast goes, it is one of the best essences, easily. As far as whether or not you can use it in conjunction with a hellfire blast is up for debate. A lot of people point out that it specifically says that a hellfire blast is, strictly speaking, NOT the same thing as an eldritch blast, so therefore you cannot apply essences or shapes to it. Personally, I feel that one should treat a hellfire blast exactly the same as an eldritch blast, only that it does more damage at the cost of personal CON damage. If you cannot apply essences or (especially) shapes to it, how useful would it really be to have a bit of extra burst damage? (I know that there's other cool abilities granted by Hellfire Warlock but still... without the Binder cheese and without allowing essences and shapes to be added to a hellfire blast, it's not very impressive.)

D) Anything gives you more BAB can help with your glaive, but "...if your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can (as part of the full-round action) make as many attacks with your eldritch glaive as your base attack bonus allows." It's important to remember that it is a full-round action. There's lots of good advice regarding the glave under "sage advice" on this page: http://www.aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Eldritch_Glaive ... If you are going as a glaivelock I also highly recommend the Combat Reflexes feat.

[phlidwsn]

B) I personally find Binder super cheesy for the purpose of spamming hellfire. I know that *technically* it does work but first of all, it's from MoI, and that's really a rarely-used supplement to begin with. Second, as a DM I'd want to have a damn good reason / explanation for taking Binder... not just "so I can spam hellfire." On this board a lot of people suggest it but to me it's always been a pretty lame optimization tactic, since the entire point of Hellfire Warlock is that it the abilities come at a price. Just my 2 cents.

Binder isn't from MoI, that's the other, cheesier, Hellfire cost avoider that drops the ability damage by 1(Strongheart Vest). Binder/Nabarius lets you heal, after the damage is taken, 1 ability damage per round.

Also, you just cut a deal with dark powers to throw hellfire in the first place. Why not go looking for another pact/dark bargain/deal to try and dodge the cost of your first pact? Seems perfectly in character to me.

[Domar]

Strongheart Vest isn't cheesy at all because the Hellfire Warlock isn't overpowered in the slightest.

I would recommend:
Binder 1 / Warlock 1 / Anima Mage 8 / Legacy Champion 10 if you want crafting and versatility.
Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 1 / Legacy Champion 10 if you want raw blasting.

Also if major bloodlines are allowed.

Warlock 1-2 / Bloodline 1 / Warlock 3-5 / Bloodline 2 / Warlock 6 / Mindbender 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Legacy Champion 1 / Bloodline 3 / Legacy Champion 2-10

Eldritch blast 9d6 base + 28d6 hellfire + 2d6 greater chasuble of fell power = 39d6. (Equivalent to a 4th level slot from a slightly optimized blasting Sorcerer.)