DM ADVICE PLEASE! Running 4e ToH, Dieffenbach version. Is 10 players too many?

[Kashyyyk]

I'm running Tomb of Horrors next week, the 4E fan made Dieffenbach version that can be found free online. I have had so many interested people, our party has ballooned to 10. There are seven pre-made characters, and we have created three more. But I am now wondering if the adventure will just not translate well. Is the adventure only made for 5, and the author gave an OPTION of 7 characters? Do you think it's possible to run 10, and if so...would you modify anything? Thanks for your advice! I am experienced, but I'm uncertain about dividing my group now, the enthusiasm has been so enjoyable for an epic event.

-Dave

[Waddacku]

It seems a lot of it will scale on its own (things of the type "each PC has to deal with this"), so those aren't any worry. It's light on combat, but you might want to roughly double the size of some of the fights in some way since you have a party of twice the intended size.

[Kashyyyk]

It seems a lot of it will scale on its own (things of the type "each PC has to deal with this"), so those aren't any worry. It's light on combat, but you might want to roughly double the size of some of the fights in some way since you have a party of twice the intended size.

Thanks for the input! Yes, I thought the same. I'm wondering about extending the size of the initial hallways slightly, since there will be 10 characters and I want the original necessity of fleeing in time. But then again, some later encounters could be harder with so many people, like the imbalanced room with the curtains of slime. Maybe I shouldn't worry about room size?

As to creatures, I wonder if I should beef up the gargoyle, or perhaps make 2 of them. That might make even more sense, since 10 players will have a turn before the creature again. Roll separate initiatives for them? Or maybe 2 of the greater skeletons that animate instead of 1?

I speculate some players may die or be transported out of the adventure to whittle down the number before the final encounters. We have smart players, but all new to the ToH concept...albeit slightly tamer 4e.

[Kurald Galain]

Combat is going to be horrendously slow with so many players...

[Yakk]

The game will bog down in combat unless you enforce strict pacing requirements.

1) Everyone uses power cards. Draw your own. The power card must have (A) base, (B) typical bonuses for ATK and Damage etc.

2) Everyone picks a default at-will power (basic attack or whatever). This is done before combat. If you don't pick a default attack, your default is a basic attack.

3) Before your turn starts you must have the power cards you are going to use in front of you. If you fail to place a move action in front of you, you will use a shift or a move. If you fail to place a standard action in front of you, you will use your default at-will. You may double-move instead of using the standard action you chose.

4) No delays during your turn. All advice by other players is live, in-character, and verbal.

---

On the DM's side you will have a lot of monsters. Work to reduce the load as follows.

1) All monsters deal MAX damage on all attacks. On a crit, roll the damage dice and add it on top of MAX.

2) All non-minion monsters have x2 HP.

3) Minions are no longer immune to miss damage. Instead of immune to miss damage, any damage that did not come from a "hit" now bloodies a minion, or kills a bloodied minion (unless it is extremely large, like enough to bloody a normal monster at the same level, such as a long fall).

4) Non-minion monsters are worth 50% more XP.

5) Monster area effects are boosted by 1 (so burst 3 becomes burst 4). Monster multi-target powers gain an additional target. Monster multi-tap powers (that permit 2+ attacks on the same target) gain +1 target and +1 tap (which cannot be on the same target as the other taps).

6) All monsters can make a saving throw at the start of their turn. On success, they can lose a healing surge to shrug off one effect, or both a healing surge and healing surge value in damage to shrug off 2. (This prevents insane lockdown on these pseudo-elite monsters).

7) Upgrade some monsters so that their attacks target 2 creatures instead of 1. These creatures are worth 100% more XP intead of 50% more XP.

The goal is to have fewer, beefier monsters, and to address some of the exploits that will break this.

[Kashyyyk]

The game will bog down in combat unless you enforce strict pacing requirements.

1) Everyone uses power cards. Draw your own. The power card must have (A) base, (B) typical bonuses for ATK and Damage etc.

2) Everyone picks a default at-will power (basic attack or whatever). This is done before combat. If you don't pick a default attack, your default is a basic attack.

3) Before your turn starts you must have the power cards you are going to use in front of you. If you fail to place a move action in front of you, you will use a shift or a move. If you fail to place a standard action in front of you, you will use your default at-will. You may double-move instead of using the standard action you chose.

4) No delays during your turn. All advice by other players is live, in-character, and verbal.

---

On the DM's side you will have a lot of monsters. Work to reduce the load as follows.

1) All monsters deal MAX damage on all attacks. On a crit, roll the damage dice and add it on top of MAX.

2) All non-minion monsters have x2 HP.

3) Minions are no longer immune to miss damage. Instead of immune to miss damage, any damage that did not come from a "hit" now bloodies a minion, or kills a bloodied minion (unless it is extremely large, like enough to bloody a normal monster at the same level, such as a long fall).

4) Non-minion monsters are worth 50% more XP.

5) Monster area effects are boosted by 1 (so burst 3 becomes burst 4). Monster multi-target powers gain an additional target. Monster multi-tap powers (that permit 2+ attacks on the same target) gain +1 target and +1 tap (which cannot be on the same target as the other taps).

6) All monsters can make a saving throw at the start of their turn. On success, they can lose a healing surge to shrug off one effect, or both a healing surge and healing surge value in damage to shrug off 2. (This prevents insane lockdown on these pseudo-elite monsters).

7) Upgrade some monsters so that their attacks target 2 creatures instead of 1. These creatures are worth 100% more XP intead of 50% more XP.

The goal is to have fewer, beefier monsters, and to address some of the exploits that will break this.

Thank you for the great information! I will certainly use this sometime. In this particular 4E version of ToH, my only thought about 10 being possible, is that there aren't really many creature combat encounters. So I'm not certain how much modification is necessary? I do like the power/action recommendations you suggested.

Has anyone run this version in the past and with 7+ players?

[Duff]

I speculate some players may die ....

If your players die you're doing it wrong!

[MoutonRustique]

If you can manage the scheduling, you could also pit 2 five-man groups against each other with regards to progression: run the adventure for both groups and then they can talk about how each game went!

[Duff]

Combat is going to be horrendously slow with so many players...
I've seen this done with a "GMs mate" running some of the fight. They worked together really well and it was a different game where one character's actions affected other characters less, but you could consider it and give it a go.
Basically each GM runs 1/2 the monsters. If the fight naturally splits in 2 as half the characters take on each half of the monsters, run 2 separate fights with a "Resynch" at the start of each round.
You could also have every 2nd player describe their actions to one DM while the other applies the effects of their turn.

[tomandtish]

If your players die you're doing it wrong!

And more importantly you shouldn't be talking about it without a lawyer present.... :smallbiggrin:

Actually, if they stay in one large group that might make some of the traps more effective. Remember how hard it's going to be for 10 people to get out of each other's way. Definitely insist on map positioning, and stick to it ("You indicated your character was here, so here they are"), as location is going to be very important. If 2-3 characters with a slow speed are at the back of the party, that can slow a retreat for everybody.

Finally, it is also important to remember the concept of the Tomb of Horrors. This was designed (way back in the old days) to be a character killer. It was originally used at origins 1, and the default victory condition wasn't beating it, but to be the group that lived the longest. It's a good idea to make sure your players are on board with this concept, because the adventure loses a lot of allure if not played this way.



If you can manage the scheduling, you could also pit 2 five-man groups against each other with regards to progression: run the adventure for both groups and then they can talk about how each game went!

Interestingly, the novelization by Paul Kidd plays with this idea. Two rival groups (one good, one evil) trying to get the alleged treasure inside.

[Kashyyyk]

And more importantly you shouldn't be talking about it without a lawyer present.... :smallbiggrin:

Actually, if they stay in one large group that might make some of the traps more effective. Remember how hard it's going to be for 10 people to get out of each other's way. Definitely insist on map positioning, and stick to it ("You indicated your character was here, so here they are"), as location is going to be very important. If 2-3 characters with a slow speed are at the back of the party, that can slow a retreat for everybody.

Finally, it is also important to remember the concept of the Tomb of Horrors. This was designed (way back in the old days) to be a character killer. It was originally used at origins 1, and the default victory condition wasn't beating it, but to be the group that lived the longest. It's a good idea to make sure your players are on board with this concept, because the adventure loses a lot of allure if not played this way.




Interestingly, the novelization by Paul Kidd plays with this idea. Two rival groups (one good, one evil) trying to get the alleged treasure inside.

The idea of 2 five man teams came to me as well on my way home last night! Thank you for suggesting too! I thought about running 2 very strictly timed sessions, say 4-5 hours, of 5 player teams. The teams are competing against each other to see who can get the farthest. That would promote player motivation of efficiency, and also be lesser players, so I could run the adventure exactly as written. However, we have lost one player, so now down to 9...and the debate continues.

This is kind of a cool introduction to "convention style" events, that are timed, because my players have never done that. (My team was runner-up in the Dnd Open once, several years ago in Wisconsin)

Although, I agree, that the traps in the first 5 encounters could easily whittle down my group by a couple players. I agree that some rooms could become "harder" with more players. Or perhaps they all flee the dungeon and (mistakenly) think they have completed it. Only a few might have "failed," to escape, but actually remain in the adventure after the illusion, to continue onward.