E6 Cleric Optimization

[Gullintanni]

Hello Playground!

I'm humbly requesting your assistance in designing a Cleric for a game of e6.

The build will be as follows:

Lawful Neutral Aasimar Cleric 2/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Master of Shrouds 2/PrC +1

We'll be entering Paragnostic Apostle early by using the Aasimar's racial SLA, Daylight. Another option here includes Primordial Half-Giant, taking Invisibility Purge as its SLA. I could be persuaded.

The build has to hit a few benchmarks.

1. Caster Level 6, for access to the Lesser Restoration feat in the E6 handbook (To this end, Practiced Spellcaster will make up for the CL loss on Master of Shrouds)
2. Rebuke Undead as Cleric Level 10 by level 6. (See Through The Veil from Paragnostic Apostle adds 2, Improved Turning adds 1)
3. Divine Magician ACF will be used, so extra Domains to trade would be beneficial. The easiest route to this end is trading the Knowledge Domain from Cloistered Cleric away.
4. This character must have Augment Summoning and Spell Focus: Conjuration as feats to enter Master of Shrouds.
5. This character will deal with encounters primarily using Undead (including summoned Shadows; and perhaps controlled spawn), and spellcasting.
6. I'd like to build around a Light based theme. Daylight and Shadows make strong thematic choices here.

That's about it. Suggestions?

EDIT: The E6 model being used is restrictive. Caster Levels on crafted items are hard requirements, 4th level spells do not exist for players.

[dextercorvia]

For your 6th level, Church Inquisitor is a good choice. +4 to dispel checks makes a big difference when you cap out at Dispel Magic.

Shadow Adept would be thematic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Primordial Half-Giant doesn't get a Wis bonus, so I'd stick with Aasimar, especially if you can use Lesser Aasimar in PGtF for no LA. That would lose the martial weapon proficiency from creature type, but otherwise doesn't have any drawbacks since the writers of that variant missed the memo about 3.5's Extraplanar subtype.

I'll have to agree that Church Inquisitor makes a great finisher to the build, but you can always go with a second level of Paragnostic Apostle if you're interested in another ability it offers.


Just FYI, the E6 rules say that the caster level requirements for items are treated as a hard requirement, but that does not necessarily apply to an item's printed caster level. Since the official DMG Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) in 2004 any item's printed caster level is absolutely not one of the prerequisites for making it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions). Excluding items from what's available in E6 based solely on their printed caster levels is completely bogus and ignorant, since any given item's minimum caster level is the minimum required to meet all of its printed prerequisites (spells, item creation feats, and in very few cases there's actually a printed caster level requirement). For example, the Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) special property's prerequisites are a 3rd level spell (minimum caster level 5th) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (minimum caster level 5th), so even though its printed caster level for when it's found as random loot is 7th, a PC adding that onto a +1 weapon can do it at a caster level of 5th, regardless of whether or not the game is E6.

[ATHATH]

Just FYI, the E6 rules say that the caster level requirements for items are treated as a hard requirement, but that does not necessarily apply to an item's printed caster level. Since the official DMG Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) in 2004 any item's printed caster level is absolutely not one of the prerequisites for making it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions). Excluding items from what's available in E6 based solely on their printed caster levels is completely bogus and ignorant, since any given item's minimum caster level is the minimum required to meet all of its printed prerequisites (spells, item creation feats, and in very few cases there's actually a printed caster level requirement). For example, the Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) special property's prerequisites are a 3rd level spell (minimum caster level 5th) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (minimum caster level 5th), so even though its printed caster level for when it's found as random loot is 7th, a PC adding that onto a +1 weapon can do it at a caster level of 5th, regardless of whether or not the game is E6.
Huh. Neat.

[Endarire]

How do you qualify for Paragnostic Apostle at level 3?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How do you qualify for Paragnostic Apostle at level 3?

It requires 3rd level spells or spell-like abilities, Aasimar get Daylight as a spell-like ability.

[Mr Adventurer]

That's not plural though?

[Darrin]

That's not plural though?

If you really insist that this is a requirement (I do not), it still satisfies the "Monday/Tuesday" test: If an Aasimar uses a 3rd level SLA on Monday, and uses a 3rd level SLA on Tuesday, that counts as multiple occurrences of a 3rd level SLA.

[Mr Adventurer]

So what? That's two uses, but it's still uses of only one spell-like ability.

[Gullintanni]

So what? That's two uses, but it's still uses of only one spell-like ability.

I agree that there are two potential readings of the RAW here; but my DM has agreed that an Aasimar's Daylight SLA is sufficient to meet the pre-requisite.


Primordial Half-Giant doesn't get a Wis bonus, so I'd stick with Aasimar, especially if you can use Lesser Aasimar in PGtF for no LA. That would lose the martial weapon proficiency from creature type, but otherwise doesn't have any drawbacks since the writers of that variant missed the memo about 3.5's Extraplanar subtype.

I'll have to agree that Church Inquisitor makes a great finisher to the build, but you can always go with a second level of Paragnostic Apostle if you're interested in another ability it offers.


Just FYI, the E6 rules say that the caster level requirements for items are treated as a hard requirement, but that does not necessarily apply to an item's printed caster level. Since the official DMG Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) in 2004 any item's printed caster level is absolutely not one of the prerequisites for making it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions). Excluding items from what's available in E6 based solely on their printed caster levels is completely bogus and ignorant, since any given item's minimum caster level is the minimum required to meet all of its printed prerequisites (spells, item creation feats, and in very few cases there's actually a printed caster level requirement). For example, the Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) special property's prerequisites are a 3rd level spell (minimum caster level 5th) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (minimum caster level 5th), so even though its printed caster level for when it's found as random loot is 7th, a PC adding that onto a +1 weapon can do it at a caster level of 5th, regardless of whether or not the game is E6.

Interesting regarding the CL requirements. In this particular game though, printed caster levels are being used as hard requirements. CL boosts can easily open up a bunch of avenues down the Magic item Christmas tree, but the game is intentionally geared toward the CR 6-9 range to minimize magic items dependency.

Because E6 character creation handles LA by lowering point buy, I thought Primordial Half Giant may provide an advantage based on the boosts to other mental state. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but I'm leaning toward Aasimar regardless.

No lesser Aasimar. I don't mind eating the +1 LA for the martial proficiencies.


For your 6th level, Church Inquisitor is a good choice. +4 to dispel checks makes a big difference when you cap out at Dispel Magic.

Shadow Adept would be thematic.

I was thinking Church Inquisitor as the 6th level, and grabbing Divine Defiance with later E6 bonus feats. Synergizes well with Extra Rebuking from Master of Shrouds, downside is pretty minimal - loss of one turning level, but it means relying more heavily on a Talisman of Undead Mastering for Commanding high level undead.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm glad you're getting what you want out of your character.

I think there's only one reasonable interpretation of the rules, though. PrC requires spell-like abilities. The Aasimar has only one. Pretty straightforward.

[Gullintanni]

I'm glad you're getting what you want out of your character.

I think there's only one reasonable interpretation of the rules, though. PrC requires spell-like abilities. The Aasimar has only one. Pretty straightforward.

A very widely accepted and semantically valid interpretation of that phraseology within the RAW of 3.5 is that "Spell-like abilities" refers to a subcategory of abilities to which one must have access in order to qualify.

Using your interpretation, a Sorcerer could not qualify for Paragnostic Apostle until 8th level, because they don't gain the ability to cast a second, unique 3rd level spell until 7th level. Under the strictest possible reading of your argument, even a character with only one 3rd level spell slot would fail to qualify; because they can only cast third level spell not spells.

Carrying that logic out to its conclusion would change the accepted PrC entry levels in a wide array of situations.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's not semantically valid.

I didn't say anything whatsoever about spells, so most of the rest of your post is false also.

As for whether what you're saying is 'very widely accepted' - I'd have to see the data you're relying on to make that assertion.

[Blackhawk748]

It's not semantically valid.

I didn't say anything whatsoever about spells, so most of the rest of your post is false also.

As for whether what you're saying is 'very widely accepted' - I'd have to see the data you're relying on to make that assertion.

He brought up spells because thats the or requirement, so you entire logic would apply to that also.

As for "very widely accepted" you are, quite literally, the only person i have ever seen on this forum ever try to make this argument.

[Coretron03]

He brought up spells because thats the or requirement, so you entire logic would apply to that also.

As for "very widely accepted" you are, quite literally, the only person i have ever seen on this forum ever try to make this argument.

He/she(Both/neither, you know the drill)'s not the first i've seen, though I think I seen at least a few more people argue for it then against it. I do, however, think that its valid and rule that way because if you rule against it, it means a that a level 7 with 17 int can't cast 4th level spell apparently, which is an unfair nerf to low powered characters that want to enter a PRC. This is a pretty common arguement though that i've never seen resolved. It's also probably better to make a new thread then argue in this one.

[Gullintanni]

He brought up spells because thats the or requirement, so you entire logic would apply to that also.


This. From Paragnostic Apostle:

Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level spells or use spell-like abilities of equivalent level.

If a single 3rd level SLA won't qualify for you for the PrC, neither will a single 3rd level spell.

OR

One 3rd level spell qualifies you as having access to the category "3rd level spells", the same way having one 3rd level SLA gives you access to the category "3rd level SLAs".

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways when the language is identical.


He/she(Both/neither, you know the drill)'s not the first i've seen, though I think I seen at least a few more people argue for it then against it. I do, however, think that its valid and rule that way because if you rule against it, it means a that a level 7 with 17 int can't cast 4th level spell apparently, which is an unfair nerf to low powered characters that want to enter a PRC. This is a pretty common arguement though that i've never seen resolved. It's also probably better to make a new thread then argue in this one.

He. Though I do appreciate the attention to proper pronoun :smalltongue:

Emphasis added. If we must further debate the matter, a new thread is a great suggestion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding the qualifications for Paragnostic Apostle, a Sorcerer 6 only knows one 3rd level spell, so it falls into the same category as the Aasimar's Daylight ability. Both still meet the spellcasting prerequisite for Paragnostic Apostle, regardless of how many times you try to split the hairs.

[Gullintanni]

Regarding the qualifications for Paragnostic Apostle, a Sorcerer 6 only knows one 3rd level spell, so it falls into the same category as the Aasimar's Daylight ability. Both still meet the spellcasting prerequisite for Paragnostic Apostle, regardless of how many times you try to split the hairs.

That's definitely my interpretation.

Back on topic - I'm considering the Glory and Darkness domains, for more light themed flavour, but I don't get much mileage in terms of new spells from the domains. I also don't get much out of the domain powers. I'll already be a turning power house from just the build and the free blind fight feat won't be beneficial very often.

Any recommendations?

[ATHATH]

You could just... not take those domains and use your normal spell slots for light-themed spells instead (or even refluff your domain spells to be light-based!)?

Half-Fey and Phrenic are REALLY good in E6 due to the funky LA rules; you might want to consider checking them out.