[Starfinder] Dabbler Archetypes

[Xuldarinar]

DABBLER ARCHETYPES
The following archetypes represent the acquisition of abilities that reside in the realm of a class other than one's own. Given that these are all abilities granted at the same levels, and can be given up in exchange for what is provided by an archetype, one could assume that they would be used in place of one another.

You may notice the lack of Mystic and Technomancer. They don't mesh as well and are not even consistent with one another. I might come back for them, but for now, we have these:


ENVOY

ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES
The envoy grants alternate class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

Envoy Improvisation 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level
At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level, you gain an envoy improvisation. For the purpose of using this class feature, your effective envoy level equals the class to which emissary is applied.

MECHANIC

ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES
The mechanic grants alternate class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

Basic Custom Rig (Ex) 1st Level
At 2nd level you gain a Custom Rig in the form of your choosing. Though it is not as advanced as those made by most mechanics, it has within it one tool or another. Select one engineering kit, hacking kit, or other technological tool kit. Your custom rig can function as this as well as any capabilities granted to it by tricks you gain henceforth. If your custom rig is damaged, destroyed, lost, or stolen, you can kitbash a new one with an hour of work and it will function as the ype of kit it was kitbashed from.

Mechanic Tricks 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level
At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level, you gain a mechanic trick. For the purpose of determining the effects of level dependent effects from tricks, your effective mechanic level equals the class level to which this archetype is applied.

OPERATIVE

ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES
The operative grants alternate class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

Operative Exploit 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level
At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level, you gain an operative exploit. For the purpose of determining the effects of level dependent effects from exploits, your effective operative level equals the class level to which this archetype is applied.

SOLARIAN

ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES
The solarian grants alternate class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

Lesser Stellar Mode (Su) 2nd,
At 2nd level, you gain the solarian's ability to take on a stellar mode. This functions identically to normal except you do not gain a bonus to reflex saves while in Graviton Mode, nor a bonus to damage while in Photon Mode.

Stellar Revelation 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level
At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level, you gain a stellar revelation. For the purpose of determining the effects of level dependent effects from revelations, your effective solarian level equals the class level to which this archetype is applied.

SOLDIER

ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES
The soldier grants alternate class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

Combat Feat 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level
At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Level, you gain a bonus combat feat.

[khadgar567]

you know doubling up the solar mote makes solarion kinda bit op as they suddenly get good light armor and weapon that hurts quite good and you might be giving more revelation
so this might be op but it feels good

[Xuldarinar]

you know doubling up the solar mote makes solarion kinda bit op as they suddenly get good light armor and weapon that hurts quite good and you might be giving more revelation
so this might be op but it feels good

:smallconfused: Why would you though..? How would you? There is nothing here that would provide that.

[Morphic tide]

See, this is just giving the parts frequently traded out by other archetypes. That's lazy, and misses much of the real use. Where's the Expertise on Envoy? Where's the Solar Manifestation on Solarion, needed for a few Revelations? Where's the Artifical Intelligence or Custom Rig, both needed by Mechanic Tricks? Where's the Gear Boost or Fighting Style of Soldier?

It offers literally nothing to use the Dabbler archetype on the class it's for. Which is bad, because it's an excellent place to put some ways of focusing more on core functions over the list elements. Trading two or three Stellar Revelations for another two or three damage dice, or a second, lesser weapon with two or three dice of damage to toss a cheap Crystal at, is something that would be well worth having for Solarions looking to spam melee damage. Accelerating progression on the AI for the Mechanic is worth losing a few tricks. A Soldier would love to trade some combat feats for more Gear Boosts and a second, minor, fighting style.

Having half level for the elements you can pick makes it even more of a tradoff, because it makes using the "dabbler" archetype cost some significant potential for higher-level capabilities. To the point where multiclassing becomes a serious alternative, unless you are actively crunched on available levels.

And now I kinda want to take this in reverse, and make base classes out of the archetypes. Cyborg would certainly be fun to make into a base class... Discounts for days to offset that insane higher level item cost, arseloads of bonuses, possibly with a side of semi-flexible crafting to lower the needs of discounts, because a class utterly dependant on having a wide range of gear is not going to like Starfinder's insane prices for higher-level gear. Unfortunately, I know not the typical balance point of Starfinder and don't want to be number-crunching to figure it out based on the existing classes.

[Xuldarinar]

See, this is just giving the parts frequently traded out by other archetypes. That's lazy, and misses much of the real use. Where's the Expertise on Envoy? Where's the Solar Manifestation on Solarion, needed for a few Revelations? Where's the Artifical Intelligence or Custom Rig, both needed by Mechanic Tricks? Where's the Gear Boost or Fighting Style of Soldier?

It offers literally nothing to use the Dabbler archetype on the class it's for. Which is bad, because it's an excellent place to put some ways of focusing more on core functions over the list elements. Trading two or three Stellar Revelations for another two or three damage dice, or a second, lesser weapon with two or three dice of damage to toss a cheap Crystal at, is something that would be well worth having for Solarions looking to spam melee damage. Accelerating progression on the AI for the Mechanic is worth losing a few tricks. A Soldier would love to trade some combat feats for more Gear Boosts and a second, minor, fighting style.

Having half level for the elements you can pick makes it even more of a tradoff, because it makes using the "dabbler" archetype cost some significant potential for higher-level capabilities. To the point where multiclassing becomes a serious alternative, unless you are actively crunched on available levels.

And now I kinda want to take this in reverse, and make base classes out of the archetypes. Cyborg would certainly be fun to make into a base class... Discounts for days to offset that insane higher level item cost, arseloads of bonuses, possibly with a side of semi-flexible crafting to lower the needs of discounts, because a class utterly dependant on having a wide range of gear is not going to like Starfinder's insane prices for higher-level gear. Unfortunately, I know not the typical balance point of Starfinder and don't want to be number-crunching to figure it out based on the existing classes.

Well, it is supposed to just give the parts that are traded out by others. In premiss, it argues that these are stated to be equivalent by the game. Far as the abilities these things lean on, well lets see:

Envoy: With exception to Expert Attack, none of their improvisations depend upon other class features.
Mechanic: Not all of their things require a rig, but you are right. The most sensible thing would be for me to do what I did with the solarian and grant a rig but it offers no bonuses on its own. I'll have to get on that.
Solarian: Unless I missed something, literally none of their revelations require their manifestation, be it in a specific form or otherwise. Now, sunbolt has a use for it because then you can apply solarian crystals to it, but the revelations are dependent upon Stellar Mode (which is provided), not upon manifestation.
Soldier: Where is one? i.. just decided against offering either. I considered offering them a lessened form of fighting style to be granted at 9th. You gain the 1st ability and thats it, but I decided against it for one reason or another.


As for using the dabbler archetype on he class it is for: Why would you? It is like in pathfinder being a Paladin with VMC Paladin. The entire point is to pick up something from another class, not to archetype in such a way you are superior to your normal class by being MORE. Im all for ones of the premiss of focusing on a different aspect of your class, but thats not the intent of these.

As for half-level.. Where are you getting that? There isn't anything saying half level. If I am an operative and i pick solarian for my archetype, then at 18th level there is no reason I couldn't pick Sunbolt and use it just the same as a full Solarian of 18th level. Only thing I've missed out on is I don't have the damage bonus from Photon Mode because it is there for the purpose of making these functional and doesn't provide bonuses in its own right.



Far as the reverse goes: Im all for it. The cyborg (huh, already 3rd party for starfinder) looks interesting and a full class could be fun.

[Morphic tide]

Well, it is supposed to just give the parts that are traded out by others. In premiss, it argues that these are stated to be equivalent by the game. Far as the abilities these things lean on, well lets see:
The big thing is that it offers close to nothing over multiclassing, and actually actively cripples some classes because of how many things are traded out without a properly useful replacement. A Drone makes the Mechanic Tricks into a passable replacement for Revelations, because it gives access to several of the damage-oriented abilities.


Envoy: With exception to Expert Attack, none of their improvisations depend upon other class features.
The other class features carry some of the basic function of the class, though. The Expertise is an unusual skill bonus, and giving that to other classes means that total skill bonuses can be boosted enough to get another tier or two of starship working.


Mechanic: Not all of their things require a rig, but you are right. The most sensible thing would be for me to do what I did with the solarian and grant a rig but it offers no bonuses on its own. I'll have to get on that.
I'd prefer the Artificial Intelligence over the Rig, really. It's the more generally useful thing, seeing as how it's the one that holds a bunch of the damage output. You know, like Solarion Revelations.


Solarian: Unless I missed something, literally none of their revelations require their manifestation, be it in a specific form or otherwise. Now, sunbolt has a use for it because then you can apply solarian crystals to it, but the revelations are dependent upon Stellar Mode (which is provided), not upon manifestation.
The thing is that the Manifestation is what the Solarion is using for damage most of the time. Revelations have wind up and conditions that make them a bit more difficult to make proper use of, and you trade out a huge number of the things you use for your own versatility, class identity and damage output. Almost all of it.


Soldier: Where is one? i.. just decided against offering either. I considered offering them a lessened form of fighting style to be granted at 9th. You gain the 1st ability and thats it, but I decided against it for one reason or another.
Well, one of the big reasons to be giving more than just the stuff traded out is that it gets... boring, in some cases. Like Soldier. Who's nothing but Combat Feats, which are not worth it most of the time over stuff like Revelations and Mechanic Tricks. It's that foundational abilities that define the class are missed out on. Look at VMC, it gives every core class feature, and many don't give the option lists. VMC Rogue gives Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attack, with not a single Rogue Trick to be seen.


As for using the dabbler archetype on he class it is for: Why would you? It is like in pathfinder being a Paladin with VMC Paladin. The entire point is to pick up something from another class, not to archetype in such a way you are superior to your normal class by being MORE. Im all for ones of the premiss of focusing on a different aspect of your class, but thats not the intent of these.
The thing is that there's nothing other than archetypes, so far, that can be used to alter how a class performs, at all. I see it like using VMC Bard on Skald, or VMC Fighter on a Warpriest. Purely improving what's already there, in a way. VMC from Pathfinder does give all the core features of a class, bar stuff like spellcasting. Monk level -2 Unarmed Strike damage, half progression Sneak Attack, partial progression Rage, Channel Energy and so on all make the cut for VMC. VMC Fighter gives you Bravery and Weapon and Armor Training. VMC replaces every other feat and doesn't compromise the function of the class you apply to it.


As for half-level.. Where are you getting that? There isn't anything saying half level. If I am an operative and i pick solarian for my archetype, then at 18th level there is no reason I couldn't pick Sunbolt and use it just the same as a full Solarian of 18th level. Only thing I've missed out on is I don't have the damage bonus from Photon Mode because it is there for the purpose of making these functional and doesn't provide bonuses in its own right.
Well, it's a suggestion. It's that having full progression on the abilities means that a Soldier is trading most, if not all, of their bonus feats for the full ranged capacity of a Solarion, or whatever else they're grabbing. Which is prone to nasty combo powers. Same for giving Solarion a pile of Combat feats. But it also has the issue of needing to be optimized to hell and back in order to actually make up for the lost capabilities. Because a rather large chunk of Solarion's damage comes from Revelations, so trading those away for anything that isn't a bulk damage dealer costs a large amount of damage output. If it were actually giving abnormal versatility, I'd be fine, but it's just granting the versatility option of another class, which often relies on class features that aren't present to be fully functional, and swaps them out for stuff that can actually be extremely important to the class working, like a Solarion's Revelations. A Mechanic that uses a Drone ends up with severely gimped capabilities because of lacking Mechanic Tricks to apply to their Drone.

Half progression means there's room for being able to get the other foundational abilities, so that you can actually pull off an in-character act of being fully the class you're dabbling in. Acting like an extraordinarily weak Solarion when you're a max level Mechanic is entirely doable if you actually follow the VMC example. Also, you can go with every other available slot as replaced things, instead of seemingly every one, leaving enough of the list elements from the class you apply the archetype to to, you know, actually be a member of your class. And get more interesting archetypes, like Cyborg.


Far as the reverse goes: Im all for it. The cyborg (huh, already 3rd party for starfinder) looks interesting and a full class could be fun.
Unfortunately, the Cyborg is about the only one that's interesting in the chances for an independent progression it offers. Admittedly, Forerunner would be a hilarious thing to make a class out of, as it would be "Jack of All Trades: The Archetype: The Class." Just utterly generalized in what it does. Themed around dealing with unexpected stuff at the frontiers, which amounts to having some of everything.