Beguiler build

[Westhart]

So, I'm working on a beguiler/minstrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533394-The-Minstrel) (spell-less type bard, gets cha to almost everything) and was wondering, what would some good feats be and what race should I go with (gnome+halfling are out of the question).

Also, are incantatrix and dweomerkeeper good on a beguiler?

[Grod_The_Giant]

You're, uh, going to have some MAD problems, but... <squints more closely> holy gods of music above, no! You've, uh, got a major problem with the Minstrel: you cannot use a skill check as a DC, because holy crap are skill check results higher than combat numbers, even before you inflate them. With 16 Cha and Skill Focus I can start the game with a Perform check of +10, for an average result of 20. With Inspire Competence, I'm giving my party +10 to attacks. At level 1. Or force them to make DC 20 saves or be shaken for...ever? Which can be stacked into panic? Or you can just do 4d6 damage/level with no save, that's fun...

If you want to have Perform checks affect the power of your songs, I suggest a Knowledge Devotion style table: have different results grant different bonuses, with a firm cap. That's what I did, anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392463-The-Bard-v2-%28Spell-less-and-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Versions%29).

[Westhart]

You're, uh, going to have some MAD problems, but... <squints more closely> holy gods of music above, no! You've, uh, got a major problem with the Minstrel: you cannot use a skill check as a DC, because holy crap are skill check results higher than combat numbers, even before you inflate them. With 16 Cha and Skill Focus I can start the game with a Perform check of +10, for an average result of 20. With Inspire Competence, I'm giving my party +10 to attacks. At level 1. Or force them to make DC 20 saves or be shaken for...ever? Which can be stacked into panic? Or you can just do 4d6 damage/level with no save, that's fun...

If you want to have Perform checks affect the power of your songs, I suggest a Knowledge Devotion style table: have different results grant different bonuses, with a firm cap. That's what I did, anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392463-The-Bard-v2-%28Spell-less-and-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Versions%29).
[palmface]
Ugh, missed somethings when I edited the class... Thought I fixed those... meant to base it off of skill ranks+cha mod (goes to fix). There based it off of perform ranks and charisma which is what I meant to do in the first place, and modified the song of horror.

There.

EDIT: forgot to say what I changed: dc is 10+1/4 skillranks+charisma mod
duration for horror is 1 round/charisma mod
bonus equals 1/4 skill ranks+cha mod

[Thurbane]

My general feat advice in any Beguiler build, both from Dragon Compendium:


Song of the Dead: +1 metamagic that allows you to use mind-affecting spells on intelligent undead.
X Bloodline: adds 9 spells known, which are often spells that would not be on the Beguiler list. Earth Bloodline has some decent party buffs at lower levels, if that's what you're looking for.

[Westhart]

My general feat advice in any Beguiler build, both from Dragon Compendium:


Song of the Dead: +1 metamagic that allows you to use mind-affecting spells on intelligent undead.
X Bloodline: adds 9 spells known, which are often spells that would not be on the Beguiler list. Earth Bloodline has some decent party buffs at lower levels, if that's what you're looking for.


Well, I have another ability to bypass immunities, and I'll look at the bloodlines, but the game is Epic.

[khaldorgas]

i'm current playing as beguiler.
some nice feats i use:
Shadow Weave Magic
Versatile Spell Caster
Mindsight (i dipped on mindbender at 6)
Obtain Familiar --- And i got improved celestial familiar for free in game.

Now, i will take shadowcraftmage prc

[Grod_The_Giant]

For reference, the classic Beguiler power-plays are either Shadowcraft Mage (Beguiler 8/Shadowcraft Mage 5 works; if you don't want to be a gnome, Changling works if you take Racial Emulation) for 100+% real shadow spells or Rainbow Servant 10 for full casting off the Cleric list (Beguiler 5/Rainbow Servant 10). Dweomerkeeper isn't as impressive without really high-cost spells to turn into free (Su) abilities, while Incantratix... well, it's still crazy strong, but you're still functionally limited by your list.

[Anthrowhale]

A couple other ideas:
(1) Mage of the Arcane Order adds the ability to cast any PHB Sorcerer/Wizard spell to a Beguiler. You need the feat Arcane Preparation to enter.
(2) There is a feat in Dragon 325 "Enhanced Shadow Reality" which makes illusions +20% more real.

[BowStreetRunner]

...what race should I go with (gnome+halfling are out of the question)...

So I was looking at the interactions of the Illumian racial abilities with your Minstrel class features and notices you are not clear on which abilities are Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like abilities.

[Westhart]

i'm current playing as beguiler.
some nice feats i use:
Shadow Weave Magic
Versatile Spell Caster
Mindsight (i dipped on mindbender at 6)
Obtain Familiar --- And i got improved celestial familiar for free in game.

Now, i will take shadowcraftmage prc
Yeah, I have mindsight, and was thinking shadowcraft mage looked nice.

For reference, the classic Beguiler power-plays are either Shadowcraft Mage (Beguiler 8/Shadowcraft Mage 5 works; if you don't want to be a gnome, Changling works if you take Racial Emulation) for 100+% real shadow spells or Rainbow Servant 10 for full casting off the Cleric list (Beguiler 5/Rainbow Servant 10). Dweomerkeeper isn't as impressive without really high-cost spells to turn into free (Su) abilities, while Incantratix... well, it's still crazy strong, but you're still functionally limited by your list.
Rainbow servant looks nice... are there any homebrew adaptions that take the focus off of couatls?

A couple other ideas:
(1) Mage of the Arcane Order adds the ability to cast any PHB Sorcerer/Wizard spell to a Beguiler. You need the feat Arcane Preparation to enter.
(2) There is a feat in Dragon 325 "Enhanced Shadow Reality" which makes illusions +20% more real.
1) Hmm, doesn't paying back the debt for the spellpool have to be from a prepared spell? Nevermind, that's what the feat's for :smallredface:
2) That'll be useful :smallsmile:

So I was looking at the interactions of the Illumian racial abilities with your Minstrel class features and notices you are not clear on which abilities are Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like abilities.
Oi, fixed it, my bad

[Anthrowhale]

Another trick: There is a feat called 'Channel Charge' in Lost Empires of Faerun which allows you to make a moderately difficult UMD check (15+item caster level) to expend a spell slot 1 level higher than a spell that you want to cast from staff without expending a charge from the staff. A staff with just 1 charge is discounted by a factor of 50 (i.e. approximately free). Since a beguiler has UMD, this gives access to any desired spell in the game at spell level+1. Managing the inventory is moderately annoying but an Efficient Quiver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#efficientQuiver) can explicitly hold 6 for rapid use.

[Westhart]

Another trick: There is a feat called 'Channel Charge' in Lost Empires of Faerun which allows you to make a moderately difficult UMD check (15+item caster level) to expend a spell slot 1 level higher than a spell that you want to cast from staff without expending a charge from the staff. A staff with just 1 charge is discounted by a factor of 50 (i.e. approximately free). Since a beguiler has UMD, this gives access to any desired spell in the game at spell level+1. Managing the inventory is moderately annoying but an Efficient Quiver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#efficientQuiver) can explicitly hold 6 for rapid use.

Hmm, that is a good idea.

[Telonius]

A standard trick (that I see in Khaldorgas' post) is to take one level of Mindbender as soon as you can qualify. That gives you Telepathy (very nice for a Beguiler) and +1 casting, but your Beguiler class features are delayed by 1 level. That means when you pick up Advanced Learning at Beguiler 7, you're casting as a Beguiler8 - meaning you can get a 4th-level spell instead of the usual 3rd-level.

[Westhart]

A standard trick (that I see in Khaldorgas' post) is to take one level of Mindbender as soon as you can qualify. That gives you Telepathy (very nice for a Beguiler) and +1 casting, but your Beguiler class features are delayed by 1 level. That means when you pick up Advanced Learning at Beguiler 7, you're casting as a Beguiler8 - meaning you can get a 4th-level spell instead of the usual 3rd-level.

Yeah, that'd work pretty well...