Trying to transition from PF to 3.5 - how do your characters survive?

[z3rO1]

This is what I want to play - we play at level 7, Bard (Savage Variant) 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 1. My stats are 17/11/14/15/13/14 before stat bonuses. I will be a refulffed Forestlord Elf, and DM gave me extra +2 to Wis.

For feats, I'm planning to do
lvl1 - Focused Performer, Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting - for 2 flaws.
lvl3 - Focused Performance.
lvl6 - Words of Creation, Song of the Heart - I trade Suggestion for it.

The Lyric Thaumturge is just for lvl5 ability, to combo it with Sonic Blade, so I guess it is replacable.

So, I recently found myself a group to play 3.5 with! But the 1st thing I noticed is that the HP here is a lot lower. And with -2 Con, this is even more worrying! And only light armor! So, besides Mirror Images, how do you guys protect you characters? Maybe there is some good Prestige Class I should delve into to get my dose of protection, like Frenzied Berserker to be unkillable at negative HP?

Thanks everyone in advance!

[Eldariel]

That's about it. Mirror Images, Alter Self, CC the enemy, etc. 3.5 HP for casters is a lot lower but you can make up for that with decent Con and more importantly, sufficiently good offense.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to pump Int a bit instead of relying on Con for hp, you could always go for the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat, from Dragon #319. It has a number of options for use (most of which are pretty meh), the best of which grants you +Int modifier to hp instead of Con.

The difference at the moment is 1 hp per level, but a headband of +Int should help with that, and it even boosts various skills and your bardic knowledge checks, as well.

You could always pay for a double-casting of polymorph any object to permanently change your Str, Dex, Con, and Int to whatever critter you change into. (Having it cast on you twice changes the second casting's duration to Permanent.) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm

[z3rO1]

If you want to pump Int a bit instead of relying on Con for hp, you could always go for the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat, from Dragon #319. It has a number of options for use (most of which are pretty meh), the best of which grants you +Int modifier to hp instead of Con.

The difference at the moment is 1 hp per level, but a headband of +Int should help with that, and it even boosts various skills and your bardic knowledge checks, as well.

Don't be decieved, the 15 Int there is just only for the Words of Creation prerequirments. I also kind of expect the Bardic Knowledge to be shot away with a flaw, so I don't focus on it till I get the confirmation. Is it still worth it to focus on int?


That's about it. Mirror Images, Alter Self, CC the enemy, etc. 3.5 HP for casters is a lot lower but you can make up for that with decent Con and more importantly, sufficiently good offense.

Well, you can't have your Mirror Images and Blurs up all day, Bards don't have a lot of spells, and in 3.5 if they hit you instead if images you need to reshuffle them, making it even less good. I'm not sure they are reliable at all because of all that. That is why I'm looking at maybe some alternative.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You lose 1 HP/level on average, as Bards were one of the handful of classes that got an upgraded hit die in the Pathfinder transition-- honestly not that big a deal. Elves take a Con penalty in both editions, so that's not really on 3.5. If it helps, Arctic Elves (Unearthed Arcana), Desert Elves (ditto), Painted Elves (Sandstorm), Snow Elves (Frostburn), and Wild Elves (Monster Manual) all swap the Con penalty for something else. (Though Snow Elves lose Cha, so you should avoid those in a Bard).

Or you could take Improved Toughness (CWar), which thankfully doesn't have the basic version as a prereq.

As for defense, Alter Self into a Troglodyte or something similar can provide a huge bonus to AC.

[z3rO1]

Or you could take Improved Toughness (CWar), which thankfully doesn't have the basic version as a prereq.

That is a thing I might do, if I decide to drop Thaumaturge.


As for defense, Alter Self into a Troglodyte or something similar can provide a huge bonus to AC.

Huge AC for 2nd level spell? I'm not very keen on polymorph rules in 3.5, care to elaborate? I might be interested in this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Huge AC for 2nd level spell? I'm not very keen on polymorph rules in 3.5, care to elaborate? I might be interested in this.
Most shapeshifting effects in 3.5 work by completely replacing significant parts of your character sheet with whatever you're turning into. Exactly what gets changed varies by spell-- Wild Shape changes your physical ability scores, but Alter Self doesn't, for instance. The spell does, however, give you "Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (...), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (...), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities."

Troglodytes get +6 NA. Cruciens (from Sandstorm) and Tren (from Serpent Kingdoms) get +8.

(You can also get a pretty good fly speed from Avarials (Races of Faerun), a +8 Hide and +15 Move Silently from becoming a Skulk (Fiend Folio), assorted swim speeds, and all sorts of small skill boosts. And, arguably, the human bonus feat. Did I mention it lasts for 10 minutes/level? Alter Self is nuts in 3.5)

[z3rO1]

Most shapeshifting effects in 3.5 work by completely replacing significant parts of your character sheet with whatever you're turning into. Exactly what gets changed varies by spell-- Wild Shape changes your physical ability scores, but Alter Self doesn't, for instance. The spell does, however, give you "Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (...), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (...), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities."

Huh, that actually just might be interesting enough!

Could you, please, if possble, list some other good creatures to turn into, besides the Troglodyte and Tren? +8 is nice enough, but I would hope I could get more later.


(You can also get a pretty good fly speed from Avarials (Races of Faerun), a +8 Hide and +15 Move Silently from becoming a Skulk (Fiend Folio), assorted swim speeds, and all sorts of small skill boosts. And, arguably, the human bonus feat. Did I mention it lasts for 10 minutes/level? Alter Self is nuts in 3.5)

Wait, so it can give me feats even? That is great then!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Huh, that actually just might be interesting enough!

Could you, please, if possble, list some other good creatures to turn into, besides the Troglodyte and Tren? +8 is nice enough, but I would hope I could get more later.



Wait, so it can give me feats even? That is great then!
Here's the handbook I pulled those from (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=usfslh1dicrsub12tiogrfhqo1&topic=2811).
Alter Self caps at 5HD forms, unless you break out serious cheese. Getting a different Type can help; if you're an Outsider (of which I think the only LA+0 option is the Neraphm from the Planar Handbook) you can get up to +18 NA by turning into a Dwarf Ancestor. That's getting pretty into the weeds, though.

Polymorph can get you bigger and badder forms, though you can't pick it up until around 11th (and then only if you take levels in Sublime Chord. Then again, there are very few reasons not to at least dip into Sublime Chord to pick up the faster casting progression).

Also, arguably feats. If you have a race that says "you get X as a racial bonus feat," you definitely get that. Humans don't have anything specified as a "racial bonus feat," though, and the PHB says "at first level." So... ask your DM on that one. I'd say no; the spell is too powerful as it is.

[Feantar]

Note that you can use Reserves of Strength to increase the HD cap by three (Non Cheesy) or, possibly, by CL+3 but that might be the dreadful gouda Grod hinted at. Since Reserves is useful even in it's restricted (max +3) version, you might want to take up to 8 HD forms into consideration.