Ways to counterspell as an immediate action

[PhantasyPen]

Hello Playground,

As the thread title says, I'm looking for ways to use Counterspelling as an immediate action on a wizard. A big part of the concept I had for the character was that they were supposed to be a sort of "magical defense" expert, stealing the energy of enemy spells or just outright shutting them down. I know the Divine Defiance feat allows clerics to do counterspell as an immediate action, I'm just wondering if there's anything for the wizard short of spell research to back-port the counterspell spell from 5e.

[Daefos]

The Reactive Counterspell feat from Players Guide to Faerun lets you counterspell as an immediate action, but also skips your next turn. Not ideal, but that's the only thing that came to mind.

[PhantasyPen]

The Reactive Counterspell feat from Players Guide to Faerun lets you counterspell as an immediate action, but also skips your next turn. Not ideal, but that's the only thing that came to mind.

Ech, I found the feat, definitely interesting, but that seems more like it's altering my place in the initiative rather than actually giving me an immediate action to use. Incidentally can someone give me an actual logical explanation for these "give up your next turn to do X" abilities? They just don't make a lick of sense to me.

[Feantar]

There's Battlemagic Perception from Heroes of Battle; it says "Free Action" but I think that's what you want. It's in page 124, a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spell that lasts 10 mins / level (and gives some other bonuses too). It essentially allows you to recognize any spell being cast within its range with a spellcraft roll, and immediately attempt to counter it. Requires 5 ranks in spellcraft, but... well... you're a spellcaster.

Edit: Just realised you're a cleric. Make it a command word item, for 3*5*1800=27000. Or even have UMD and make it into an eternal wand, if you want a certainly rules legal way to do it. And since it's 3rd level, you can even have it in a potion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Celerity (PH2) is an immediate action and gives you a standard action, if you're immune to Dazed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) there's really no drawback.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You're describing something very powerful, which is why you usually at least have to dip Cleric to get that ability. However, there are some items and spells that can help.

Battlemagic Perception allows you to auto-detect spells within 100' (LoE), and you can counter one spell as a free action (which ends the spell).
Duelward allows you to counterspell as an immediate action once. It's not as good as BMP, which is longer duration, lower level, and a free action, but you can have both up at once.
The Ring of Spell Battle allows you to redirect the target of a nearby spell as an immediate action.

You may also want to look into spell-denial zones such as Ottiluke's Suppressing Field and Kiss of Draconic Defiance. Also, sometimes it's easier to do the ol' Warrior counterspell by casting Celerity and then blasting the crap out of the opponent and forcing impossible concentration DCs.

As far as giving up your next turn to go now, it can be very useful. The psionic power Anticipatory Strike, for instance, lets you alpha strike before the enemy has a chance to do anything, so that when you give up your next turn the fight is already over. It's certainly much better than Reactive Counterspell.

[Eldariel]

A typical counterspell specialist build is Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Master Specialist 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 with either Krau-sigil Illumian or Practiced Spellcaster. Practiced Spellcaster/Krau Sigil guarantees you the caster level to access Divine Defiance and if you take Precocious Apprentice, you can enter Master Specialist on level 3 regardless. Cleric also gives you Inquisition-domain for +4 to Dispel-checks to go with the Master Specialist Abjurer bonuses (eventually +9 over standard Dispel Magic). This is thus a Wizard that qualifies for Divine Defiance, albeit losing one caster level. But if that's not in the cards, the key options are as above.

Additionally, Duelward [Spell Compendium] is a worse Battlemagic Perception but you can have both so why not. Keep up the option for two immediate action counterspells. And yeah, Celerity obviously functions as does any other way of taking immediate action standard actions.

[emeraldstreak]

Any of these + Archmage lets you reflect the spells back at the caster.

[Crake]

A typical counterspell specialist build is Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Master Specialist 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 with either Krau-sigil Illumian or Practiced Spellcaster. Practiced Spellcaster/Krau Sigil guarantees you the caster level to access Divine Defiance and if you take Precocious Apprentice, you can enter Master Specialist on level 3 regardless. Cleric also gives you Inquisition-domain for +4 to Dispel-checks to go with the Master Specialist Abjurer bonuses (eventually +9 over standard Dispel Magic). This is thus a Wizard that qualifies for Divine Defiance, albeit losing one caster level. But if that's not in the cards, the key options are as above.

Additionally, Duelward [Spell Compendium] is a worse Battlemagic Perception but you can have both so why not. Keep up the option for two immediate action counterspells. And yeah, Celerity obviously functions as does any other way of taking immediate action standard actions.

You only get 1 immediate action per round, so unless you have a means to circumvent that limit (which, while not impossible, is quite hard), having two immediate action counterspell options is redundant, since you can only use one in any given round. I'm also surprised your counterspell build doesn't include arcane mastery to take 10 on the CL check to dispel.

[Anthrowhale]

Srinshee's Spell Shift allows a counterspell to do many other things at high level (it's sorcerer/wizard 9).

[Eldariel]

You only get 1 immediate action per round, so unless you have a means to circumvent that limit (which, while not impossible, is quite hard), having two immediate action counterspell options is redundant, since you can only use one in any given round. I'm also surprised your counterspell build doesn't include arcane mastery to take 10 on the CL check to dispel.

Well, BMP is technically a free action so the immediate action part is not a problem.

And yeah, AM is good. You'll notice I didn't cover feats beyond prerequisites - a lot more can be done with them.

[Boci]

Ech, I found the feat, definitely interesting, but that seems more like it's altering my place in the initiative rather than actually giving me an immediate action to use. Incidentally can someone give me an actual logical explanation for these "give up your next turn to do X" abilities? They just don't make a lick of sense to me.

Basically you need to look at turn order as an imperfect compromise due to the limits of the game rather than a faithful recreation of the battle. So initiative order:

17 - Ranger fires a bow at the rakshasa
12 - Rakshasa cast fire ball
6 - Wizard acts

Rather than the rakshasa and wizard patiently waiting their turn whilst the rangers fires their bow, everyone is doing their actions, but the rangers finishes first (yes, this has implications on action order and should change things, hence imperfect compromise).

So with you "lose next action to do X now" the above becomes:

17 - Ranger fires a bow at the rakshasa
Our of turn - Wizard uses a birth of speed to counter the rakshasa's fireball quicker than most magic users could
12 - Rakshasa's spell is countered
6 - Wizard is drained and recovery from the small exertion of potential

[ViperMagnum357]

Probably a bit far up the ladder for the typical campaign, but when you get to mid-epic you can take Epic Counterspell at level 27, which is the final iteration of active counters. Counterspelling no longer requires an action-you simply counter anything you can see and identify, at any point during a round, as many times as you have counters/dispels available.

[Doctor Despair]

Probably a bit far up the ladder for the typical campaign, but when you get to mid-epic you can take Epic Counterspell at level 27, which is the final iteration of active counters. Counterspelling no longer requires an action-you simply counter anything you can see and identify, at any point during a round, as many times as you have counters/dispels available.

It's pretty easy to bypass the limit on skill points, so you can have this as early as level 21 or, of you're a Dragonwrought Kobold and can meet the feat prerequisites, even earlier.

[PhantasyPen]

Basically you need to look at turn order as an imperfect compromise due to the limits of the game rather than a faithful recreation of the battle. So initiative order:

17 - Ranger fires a bow at the rakshasa
12 - Rakshasa cast fire ball
6 - Wizard acts

Rather than the rakshasa and wizard patiently waiting their turn whilst the rangers fires their bow, everyone is doing their actions, but the rangers finishes first (yes, this has implications on action order and should change things, hence imperfect compromise).

So with you "lose next action to do X now" the above becomes:

17 - Ranger fires a bow at the rakshasa
Our of turn - Wizard uses a birth of speed to counter the rakshasa's fireball quicker than most magic users could
12 - Rakshasa's spell is countered
6 - Wizard is drained and recovery from the small exertion of potential

Honestly, I think this is the first time someone's explained that particular mechanic in a way that makes sense narratively and mechanically.


Probably a bit far up the ladder for the typical campaign, but when you get to mid-epic you can take Epic Counterspell at level 27, which is the final iteration of active counters. Counterspelling no longer requires an action-you simply counter anything you can see and identify, at any point during a round, as many times as you have counters/dispels available.

Probably worth looking into, incidentally, if I started taking levels in a martial class in epic, does Epic Save and Attack bonus still apply? Or would I get the actual BAB of the martial class?

[ViperMagnum357]

^Once you get into Epic, BAB and Saves are replaced wholesale with Epic Saves and AB. this gives the equivalent of all good saves advancement, albeit advancing attack bonus as a Wizard. If you want to max out your saves and BAB, aim for +20 BAB from martial classes, and take numerous dips to gain the initial +2 available on the good saves of different martial classes. The only exceptions are creatures with more than 20 racial HD, and then only if they have good BAB and saves, like True Dragons.

[Eldariel]

^Once you get into Epic, BAB and Saves are replaced wholesale with Epic Saves and AB. this gives the equivalent of all good saves advancement, albeit advancing attack bonus as a Wizard. If you want to max out your saves and BAB, aim for +20 BAB from martial classes, and take numerous dips to gain the initial +2 available on the good saves of different martial classes. The only exceptions are creatures with more than 20 racial HD, and then only if they have good BAB and saves, like True Dragons.

However, the "Divine Power" spell gives you BAB equal to your level regardless. So that way you can doubledip, both getting epic AB and BAB.

[ViperMagnum357]

^Actually that raises a good question-in the SRD, Divine Power has a very simple description. But in the 3.5 printing of the PHB, there is a clarification in parentheses that BAB is explicitly capped at +20, full stop. In the ELH, it simple says your BAB does not increase after 20th level. My PHB is the 'Special Edition' from the October 2004 printing, so now I am wondering why the SRD is different-that seems like rather important addenda to remove.

[gorfnab]

Surprisingly this is where a Shadowcaster build can work. The Warp Spell mystery can counter a spell as an immediate action. The Noctumancer prestige class is based around counterspelling and is a full theurge type class.

Here are two builds stubs that could work for a Wizard/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer.
Shadowcaster 3/ Wizard 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4
Wizard 1 (2nd level spells through early entry of choice) / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6

[PhantasyPen]

Surprisingly this is where a Shadowcaster build can work. The Warp Spell mystery can counter a spell as an immediate action. The Noctumancer prestige class is based around counterspelling and is a full theurge type class.

Here are two builds stubs that could work for a Wizard/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer.
Shadowcaster 3/ Wizard 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4
Wizard 1 (2nd level spells through early entry of choice) / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6

This is interesting, but Shadowcaster just doesn't fit the flavor of the character. They are rather explicitly a wizard, and use that spell list specifically. This is kind of the thing that is tripping me up, I know of other methods to make a better dispelling expert (namely playing an anti-mage cleric), but unfortunately this specific character is required to use wizard.