Who is "Weak Minded"?

[No brains]

Having 'weak mind' is something dangerous to have around sorcerers, jedi, and street magicians all across fiction. It's something that few people would admit to being and fewer would like to be called by someone else, but then again, it's not something easily quantified either.

How can we exercise our minds to keep them 'strong'? Can that even be done, or is a weak mind something that someone cannot overcome? The mind is complex enough that some of its routines can be seen as strengths and weaknesses depending on the circumstance. If someone is aware that they might fall victim to a temptation, are they strong for avoiding temptation, or weak for having temptation be a possibility at all?

Please don't use my thread to insult others. Instead, share something of your mind that you believe to be a strength or weakness. Do you believe that this trait gives you a 'strong' or 'weak' mind? Do you think that your strength of mind is noteworthy, yet not applicable to defense against mind control? Do you think that mind strength is a load of hoo-hah? Or maybe that's what they want you to think...

DISCUSS!

[Anteros]

Depending on the form of media it's going to come down to discipline, willpower, or raw intelligence. Since mind control isn't a thing that actually exists, I don't think it's really applicable to real people.

Even if we did want to apply it to the real world, the meaning is going to vary drastically from person to person. Someone who is slow to anger and methodical is going to view those traits as a positive. Likewise, someone who is emotional and impulsive is equally likely to place a high value on their own traits. Outside of things like actual mental illnesses or vast intelligence gaps, it's not really a concept that has any place in the real world.

[golentan]

As best I can tell, "minor antagonist" is the main qualification.

[Pex]

The weak minded are always the mooks of the BBEG and the sidekicks and followers of the Hero. For a sidekick not to be weak minded, he, more likely she, would be portrayed as thoroughly competent she would have been the heroine of the movie if only the hero didn't exist. For the Lieutenant of the BBEG to be weak minded he would have to be the alleged comic relief the BBEG only tolerates because the script demands it. The hero can be weak minded if his reason for being the hero was forced upon him by fate/destiny when he's just a regular guy way out of his league. Overcoming the weakness is his moral lesson and/or transition into The HERO in his league. If the movie stars a heroine, her male sidekick is always weak minded.

[Kitten Champion]

This,


Having 'weak mind' is something dangerous to have around sorcerers, jedi, and street magicians all across fiction. It's something that few people would admit to being and fewer would like to be called by someone else, but then again, it's not something easily quantified either.

and this,



How can we exercise our minds to keep them 'strong'? Can that even be done, or is a weak mind something that someone cannot overcome? The mind is complex enough that some of its routines can be seen as strengths and weaknesses depending on the circumstance.

are separate issues.

There's no point considering what strength of mind or lack thereof means in terms of fictional supernatural or scientific abilities to coerce or manipulate an individual's consciousness. It's whatever the creator describes as such, and that's likely to follow either the needs of the plot and/or larger cultural assumptions. Stormtrooper will of course have a weak mind as they're pawns trained to follow orders without question after all, whereas the greedy merchant/crime boss will be immune because they're clever and used to deception and/or because it would make the story far too easy if the heroes could simply be given everything. -- the main villain will also be immune as well, obviously.

In mundane, real-life circumstances, yeah, you can develop your mind to overcome what would be largely determined as weaknesses. This is a key aspect of maturation in general, in fact. We grow the capacity for healthy skepticism, for impulse control, emotional stability through stressful situation, and our ability to focus our minds and organize our thoughts -- among other things. We aren't crystallized beings in adulthood either, the brain is pretty plasticine.



If someone is aware that they might fall victim to a temptation, are they strong for avoiding temptation, or weak for having temptation be a possibility at all?

This wording is getting more into the metaphysical realm though.

[Jayngfet]

Depends on the writer and what specific qualities they value, no more, no less.

[Yora]

Generally the idea seems to be people who have a tendency to accept orders from apparent authorities without questioning if the person with authority is qualified, justified, or acting in the best interest of the common goal. If a person acts like he has authority to give orders, the weak minded assume the orders are good and comply.
Strong minded people have a reflex to check if a person actually has the authority and qualification to make an order and to consider the consequences of what will happen if they comply before they do.

Weak minded people follow because they are being told to. Strong minded people go along if an order has passed their own scrutiny to be justified and effective.

I think two factors mostly come into play. The first one would be "intelligence" in the sense of having the capacity of having sufficient information and understanding of a situation to be able to analyze what the intentions and consequences of an order are. If you don't have a clue what's going on, the natural instinct is to go along with whatever someone says who does know what's goin on. If you don't have the mental capacity to grasp a wide range of information, you're in a very bad position to consider whether an order makes sense.

The other thing that matters expecially for soldiers but also any other form of formal hierarchy, are the established roles for obedience. If soldiers are trained to follow all orders from their superiors without question or they will be punished or kicked out, then they will be much more inclined to follow orders even if they have no clue what the point is or if the order seems to be harmful to the common goal. If something goes bad, it's not their problem and the fault of whoever gave the order.
Yet at the same time, the structure of hierarchy can also train people to seek confirmation that orders are justified before complying. For example there are plenty of actual and fictional stories of people with stolen uniforms walking into restricted areas because they brush everyone aside who is trying to ask what they are doing there. To counter this, the modern German army has rules of obedience that put gate guards for military bases into higher authority than anyone else regardless of rank. When it comes to the matter of who goes through the gate, the guard outranks everyone and the only person who can give him orders is the acting base commander who assigned him to the post. Showing up with a lot of shiny metal on your shoulders does nothing. If you have any business on the base, the guard will want to see your papers or will make a call to his superior if he wants to see an unannounced visitor that has shown up at the gate. But if he thinks you have no business getting into the base, he has full authority to deny entrance and there is absolutely no way by which someone with a higher rank could threaten him. But he could be punished for letting someone through without having made certain that it has been authorized by the person with the authority to grant such permission.

Evil overlords don't tend to structure their armies in ways to ensure that no single person can ever gain complete control of everything. That's kind of the point with their whole armies. As such their soldiers are trained to comply whether they think an order makes sense or not. Better not even think about whether it does.
To make characters more resistant to mind control, they need to have a good understanding of the greater picture and a strong drive to make their own decisions instead of going with the masses. Knowing that mind control exists and understanding how it works also helps a lot, since it make them more likely to question if an order makes sense or they are being manipulated.

[No brains]

Excellent answers everyone! Both insightful and hilarious! I'm gonna need a lot of time to structure a real reply, but I just wanted to thank everyone for contributing first! :smallsmile:

[RossN]

Some great analysis here, so I'm not sure how much I can add. I'll try though. :smallbiggrin: Still I can think of a couple of examples that show weak mindedness.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer, one of my favourite shows, had a couple of different characters who in very different ways could be called weak minded, that don't quite fit the usual 'mooks' criteria.

Xander Harris is effortlessly hypnotised by Dracula (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aev9Rq3v0dU). Now Xander is 'just' a regular human being, but I don't think that's really a deciding factor in the Buffyverse when it comes to weak mindedness (see below). Xander is an underachieving student and a guy who mostly reacts emotionally but I don't think he could reasonably be called dumb. Instead he's just a guy with a lot of insecurities in his life, who doesn't when you get down to it have much confidence or opinion in his own qualities. So he falls for Dracula's powers in part because he believes he's the type of person who would be weak minded.

Kendra the Vampire Slayer on the other hand is everything Xander is not: powerful, confident, disciplined. Yet she is mind controlled even more easily (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aev9Rq3v0dU) than Xander. In her case Kendra is someone who has spent her whole life in training to be not so much a warrior as as a weapon. She's been indoctrinated to follow orders and procedures with little or no room left for imagination or individuality or sense of self - she isn't 'Kendra', a teenage girl with superpowers, she's a Vampire Slayer who happens to be called Kendra. In her case she didn't have the self of sense to fight back against Drusilla's hypnosis, even though she could physically fight her without problem. In a lot of ways Kendra is a lot like a heroic, unusually powerful version of the standard weak minded evil mook.

[sktarq]

I'd say the root of it is a highly simplified idea of suggestibility, as was discussed in early hypnotists psychological work. And that people found some people are far more and some people are far less open to being hypnotized etc. Later works with actual scientific rigor behind them are far less influential in the media elaboration of the concept. This is somewhat combined with it being combined with other ideas of "easily manipulated" on a variable basis.

This foggy mix of ideas is then bent as needed by the author of various media to suit their narrative.

[Legato Endless]

I don't think intelligence actually matters much to this stereotype as commonly depicted, though fiction (and people in real life) certainly conflate it. Usually, whatever the core 'truth' the author wishes to express, people who are weak minded tend to accept the false nonsense surrounding them. Whether it be the Storm troopers dutifully serving a fascist autocracy making them easily manipulated, the muggles unable to let go of their perceptions and acknowledge the true nature of the world, the old lady who has enough self possession to resist the narrative you insert into reality as Anansi's son, or all those protagonists who actually manage to question the dystopia they find themselves living in.

Usually, averting this moniker is correlated to, if not casually linked to strong metacognition. Which has relatively little to do with intellect and more the ability to reflect on one's thoughts. Either draped in mystical mumbo jumbo, dealing with newspeak, or whatever genre trappings might apply. Then again, any kind of clarified disciplined cognition in fiction is less frequently depicted as a set of strategies one can learn and adopt and more an inbuilt specialness of the protagonist. Which combined with the aforementioned fact a lot of fiction that plays with this trope also depicts a large number of people as basically equivalent to insect drones instinctually buzzing in their natural hierarchy makes the whole affair an effective play on the narcissism of the reader.

[Knaight]

It's a bit of a vague term, involving a lot of different composites of different mental traits. As a roughly ordered list from most to least important (in general) consider:
1) Willpower: The ability to force yourself to do something, to brush aside underlying wants (especially simple biological things like eating when hungry), and to just generally have a conscious center with major influence is generally the most important trait.
2) Conviction: This one is a bit of a double edged sword. Knowing that you're right, an aversion towards provisionally held beliefs, and a resistance to new and contradictory information tends to be an asset in resisting most forms of mental domination in fiction. It's often even better than willpower against more brute force methods, and those methods dominate. It's still listed second though, because it can be a downright liability against techniques relying more on trickery.
3) Confidence: This is pretty similar to conviction (which is essentially a high degree of confidence in one's perception, knowledge, and especially moral code), but generally applied more to ability.
4) Stubbornness: This is generally portrayed as an outright character flaw, but in the specific context of not being weak minded and resisting mental influence it's pretty helpful.
5) Intellect: Most of the time, this is pretty useless. With that said, there are those trickery based mental techniques I mentioned in the context of conviction, and intelligence is generally portrayed as exceptionally good at protecting against them.

[lunaticfringe]

Unless it's shtick (Xander)then generally: Heroic or 'Virtuous' Attributes=Strong; Criminal or 'Sinful' Attributes=Weak. At least from what I've noticed. Because Plot is also a strong argument but can be used as a Universal Answer to Why? across all fictional entertainment.

Though Xander could be argued to be sloth- and lustful. Stereotypical Teenage Male attributes.

[Sapphire Guard]

There's also versions where intelligence is actually a weakness. Discworld vampires can more easily dominate someone the more clearly they're thinking.

I like the idea that it's just a strong sense of personal identity that means you're better at recognising your own thoughts, independent of intellect or morals

[golentan]

Unless it's shtick (Xander)then generally: Heroic or 'Virtuous' Attributes=Strong; Criminal or 'Sinful' Attributes=Weak. At least from what I've noticed. Because Plot is also a strong argument but can be used as a Universal Answer to Why? across all fictional entertainment.

Though Xander could be argued to be sloth- and lustful. Stereotypical Teenage Male attributes.

But stormtroopers are dutiful, loyal, and brave.

They have to be to keep charging into the breach with armor which seems to restrict vision and does NOTHING to make blaster fire or "being hit by rocks" less lethal. And at least when mind tricked, the Empire hadn't committed it's most famous atrocity, and had good enough PR that Luke was talking about applying to the imperial military academy with his aunt and uncle.

[Giggling Ghast]

Belkar springs to mind. It's essentially anyone with low intelligence and wisdom scores.

[lunaticfringe]

But stormtroopers are dutiful, loyal, and brave.

They have to be to keep charging into the breach with armor which seems to restrict vision and does NOTHING to make blaster fire or "being hit by rocks" less lethal. And at least when mind tricked, the Empire hadn't committed it's most famous atrocity, and had good enough PR that Luke was talking about applying to the imperial military academy with his aunt and uncle.

Yeah but we the audience knew they worked for the bad guys from the opening scene. I should have used Villainous/Criminal. It's a story. While they are soldiers and probably have iconic "hero" traits from an in universe perspective, we are not in universe.

[golentan]

Yeah but we the audience knew they worked for the bad guys from the opening scene. I should have used Villainous/Criminal. It's a story. While they are soldiers and probably have iconic "hero" traits from an in universe perspective, we are not in universe.

I know. I just like bringing up that "nameless faceless extras that the hero guns down and then makes a flippant joke about are people with hopes and dreams and aspirations and possibly a family who will miss them, and while it's okay to celebrate the triumph of the good guys you should feel bad about the deaths along the way." Hell, did anyone think to rescue jabba's sex slaves before blowing up his barge?

It's one of my things.

[Knaight]

Yeah but we the audience knew they worked for the bad guys from the opening scene. I should have used Villainous/Criminal. It's a story. While they are soldiers and probably have iconic "hero" traits from an in universe perspective, we are not in universe.

If we're looking at it from a meta perspective it's usually more efficacy than anything. Darth Vader is undeniably a villain, there's no reason to think that he's susceptible to mind control.

[danzibr]

I’d say it’s more an issue of grit.

[Doorhandle]

Honestly, "being the protagonist" is the best qualifier. But I feel I should note the (very) brief research I did on susceptibility in hypnosis.

*The overly imaginative are often highly susceptible. Kind of makes sense as they can already draw themselves into a fantasy world, so hypnosis is just a matter of getting someone else to do it.
*The same test found that some mental disorders are associated with being more hypnotisable (ex. Dissociative identity disorder). So a "strong" mind may well be a healthy one.
* According to this source (http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2012/10/03/not-everyone-can-be-hypnotized-and-researchers-are-one-step-closer-to-understanding-why/), it's partly biological: if the salient and executive control systems activate in tandem, you're probably hypnotisable. "Strong" minds could just be down to genetics.
*On the other hand, another articles using the same source posited that people with high attention spends and decision-making skills are more hypnotisable. High attention span makes sense (because you have to stare at the shiny, shiny watch,) but the decision-making one seems a bit ironic to me.
* In contrast, those who resist hypnosis are "more judgmental, fastidious in their habits and less trusting of people. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2213293/Hypnosis-Why-quick-decision-makers-people-higher-attention-span-better.html#ixzz4wc9YuC8U)"
*The most interesting thing in hypnosis is that it's clients generally must be willing. Therefore, hypnosis tends to see use in psychology, rather than, say, bank robbery.

So in summary, mental strength in terms of willpower seems to have little to do with hypnosis. Of course, this assumes the mind control works similarly to hypnosis...

[Darth Ultron]

Weak minded people follow because they are being told to. Strong minded people go along if an order has passed their own scrutiny to be justified and effective.


I'd say this, but even more general and not just ''orders''. A general weak mind does not overly give much thought to anything, and mostly they just react: often a weak minded person can not even tell you why they are doing anything. The strong mind gives a lot of thought to everything all the time, and they more often take actions then react.

And a lot of it is mental strength and concentration and attention and focus. A strong minded person has little trouble doing a task within their abilities. The weak minded does not have the means to do a task willingly.

And there is the strong sense of right/wrong/or anything else. A strong minded person knows x is x, the weak mind is not so sure.

The average Stormtrooper is weak minded....but then the Darths/ Emperors/Moffts/Generals want it that way.

The average classical hero has a strong mind: It is rare Captain America gets mind controlled.

[Sapphire Guard]

I know. I just like bringing up that "nameless faceless extras that the hero guns down and then makes a flippant joke about are people with hopes and dreams and aspirations and possibly a family who will miss them, and while it's okay to celebrate the triumph of the good guys you should feel bad about the deaths along the way." Hell, did anyone think to rescue jabba's sex slaves before blowing up his barge?

It's one of my things.

That's also one of my things, but realistically how could they do it? There's five of them, Han is blind and Leia's still in slave costume. So Chewbacca, Lando, and Luke against all of Jabba's personal guards? If they escape without disabling it, they'll be chased, and the getaway was narrow enough as it was.

[Frozen_Feet]

There's also versions where intelligence is actually a weakness. Discworld vampires can more easily dominate someone the more clearly they're thinking.


It's some times like this in real life as well. I've seen studies suggesting that high IQ people are more suspectible to certain kinds of manipulation, because they're better at rationalizing stupid behaviour and better at rationalizing how their failure was someone else's fault.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, I believe I've heard it said that the hardest people to trick are children and stage magicians.

[Psyren]

As best I can tell, "minor antagonist" is the main qualification.

Or "minor protagonist" (Oh hi there, Poe Dameron)

[RossN]

Or "minor protagonist" (Oh hi there, Poe Dameron)

Funnily enough I recently read a rather good fanfic where Poe was mind tricked (a 'classic' Obi-Wanesque mind trick rather than Kylo Ren's more aggressive technique.) The fanfic was from his POVand played it pretty well.

[golentan]

That's also one of my things, but realistically how could they do it? There's five of them, Han is blind and Leia's still in slave costume. So Chewbacca, Lando, and Luke against all of Jabba's personal guards? If they escape without disabling it, they'll be chased, and the getaway was narrow enough as it was.

Leia, while she was unchaining herself and climbing on the getaway boat, could have unchained some of the other girls who were right there, and just not stopped them from getting on the getaway boat.

[Telonius]

The ability to say "No" is a pretty big part of mental strength, I think; at least in a lot of fiction. Stubbornness, generally; keeping to your own decision despite other forces working against that decision. In Lord of the Rings, Frodo has to be "strong" enough to refuse to put on the One Ring. Similar thing with the Palantir; you basically have to be stubborn enough to say, "nuts to you," to Sauron if you want to use it safely. Dwarves (one of whose defining traits is stubbornness) don't turn into Wraiths when they use their rings of power.


If we're looking at it from a meta perspective it's usually more efficacy than anything. Darth Vader is undeniably a villain, there's no reason to think that he's susceptible to mind control.

He was blatantly manipulated into killing a room full of younglings. Yeah, it was by a Sith Master; but he got played like a chump to get to be Darth Vader.

[Friv]

Leia, while she was unchaining herself and climbing on the getaway boat, could have unchained some of the other girls who were right there, and just not stopped them from getting on the getaway boat.

Were there other girls there? I only remember Leia being chained up on the barge itself.

[golentan]

Were there other girls there? I only remember Leia being chained up on the barge itself.

I could have sworn there was girl dancing, and I know there was the blue elephant musician person. And someone was mixing drinks. But yeah, Leah was the only one in chains, my bad.

Still, I get a willingness to throw his sycophants and footsoldiers under the bus, but given Jabba's established love of elaborate, cruel death traps as retribution for minor displeasures, and the presence of all those enforcers with all that weaponry, I still feel for the "entertainers" who were probably just hoping to make it through the day without being fed to SOMETHING carnivorous or having Jabba run his tongue on them. Or both.

[Scarlet Knight]

Depending on the form of media it's going to come down to discipline, willpower, or raw intelligence. Since mind control isn't a thing that actually exists, I don't think it's really applicable to real people.


Mind control does exist in real life; it is called advertizing. It is so effective that billions of dollars are spent yearly on getting people to do what others want them to do just through visual and audio tricks. And it works on everyone , no matter what level of grit or intelligence.

Knowledge helps only if you can recognize that you are being manipulated.

[Zalabim]

Mind control does exist in real life; it is called advertizing. It is so effective that billions of dollars are spent yearly on getting people to do what others want them to do just through visual and audio tricks. And it works on everyone , no matter what level of grit or intelligence.

Knowledge helps only if you can recognize that you are being manipulated.

All I really know about advertising is that it is believed to work on enough people that it is worth the money spent on it. I haven't examined any studies about that kind of advertising to say if that belief is grounded or accurate.

[golentan]

All I really know about advertising is that it is believed to work on enough people that it is worth the money spent on it. I haven't examined any studies about that kind of advertising to say if that belief is grounded or accurate.

League of Legends continues to try to neg me into playing it, having decided I fall in a demographic which is well swayed by their obnoxious advertisements. I basically want to set fire to the servers and dance on the game's grave at this point, and the idea of them getting one red cent from me has gone from "absurd" to "laughable" as the ads have continued and changed.

[Frozen_Feet]

"Advertizing" is a really broad category, and it's trivial to show that most adverts don't rely on manipulation at all, they simply and very straightforwardly just tell people a thing exists.

There are manipulative adverts too, but they're very hit & miss. Yeah, companies spent a lot of money on them. Companies also lose a lot of money because their adverts don't work. Hence bringing advertizing up as "mind control" is suspect. It'd be more educational to dwell on the specific tactics that manipulative adverts try to use, as they also see use elsewhere, such as in long cons, hypnotism and stage magic.

[Knaight]

Mind control does exist in real life; it is called advertizing. It is so effective that billions of dollars are spent yearly on getting people to do what others want them to do just through visual and audio tricks. And it works on everyone , no matter what level of grit or intelligence.

Advertising is a population level effect that doesn't resemble mind control in any meaningful way. Instead it relies on people making decisions based on the information they know, and selectively giving them information. Sometimes it's fairly deceptive, other times it boils down neatly to people buying stuff they find useful after being made aware of its existence - a lot of those tricks have more to do with catching attention in the first place than anything else.

[Grinner]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment (?)

Call it grit, emotional intelligence, or whatever, but there have been efforts made to quantify command of the self, what might be called "willpower".

[ArlEammon]

Having 'weak mind' is something dangerous to have around sorcerers, jedi, and street magicians all across fiction. It's something that few people would admit to being and fewer would like to be called by someone else, but then again, it's not something easily quantified either.

How can we exercise our minds to keep them 'strong'? Can that even be done, or is a weak mind something that someone cannot overcome? The mind is complex enough that some of its routines can be seen as strengths and weaknesses depending on the circumstance. If someone is aware that they might fall victim to a temptation, are they strong for avoiding temptation, or weak for having temptation be a possibility at all?

Please don't use my thread to insult others. Instead, share something of your mind that you believe to be a strength or weakness. Do you believe that this trait gives you a 'strong' or 'weak' mind? Do you think that your strength of mind is noteworthy, yet not applicable to defense against mind control? Do you think that mind strength is a load of hoo-hah? Or maybe that's what they want you to think...

DISCUSS!

Sometimes even smart people are "weak-minded" when it comes to not covering their own weakness of whatever the kind. Or sometimes, as far as I know "Weak-willed" is about the same as weak minded, so a smart person can be weak minded as well.

[Sapphire Guard]

Leia, while she was unchaining herself and climbing on the getaway boat, could have unchained some of the other girls who were right there, and just not stopped them from getting on the getaway boat.

And then what? There's space for like 6-8 people on the getaway speeder, the barge has already shot one of them down, few of the innocents can make the jump, and the rest of the personal guards will be be attacking all the while. It was not an easy escape where they had leisure time to do anything they liked.

[Scarlet Knight]

Advertising is a population level effect that doesn't resemble mind control in any meaningful way. Instead it relies on people making decisions based on the information they know, and selectively giving them information. Sometimes it's fairly deceptive, other times it boils down neatly to people buying stuff they find useful after being made aware of its existence - a lot of those tricks have more to do with catching attention in the first place than anything else.

That depends on how direct you want mind control to be. Alot of ads are just informative " Our car gets the best mpg around!" and some are attention getting " Ooo! Naked woman! Niiiice. What's she selling? I can't tell. Oh, wait, she has a necklace on." And it won't make you impersonate a chicken like hypnosis will.

But it is subtle mass mind control. If you're an American of a certain age & I say " Two all beef patties..."




Did you finish the jingle? Dance puppet ! Dance!

[golentan]

And then what? There's space for like 6-8 people on the getaway speeder, the barge has already shot one of them down, few of the innocents can make the jump, and the rest of the personal guards will be be attacking all the while. It was not an easy escape where they had leisure time to do anything they liked.

In a universe whose primary selling point is "black and white morality exists and our space wizard knight can see the future and is held to such a high moral standard that he can't stab the evil emperor who blows up planets of civilians because that man makes him ANGRY by talking about killing his friends. And violence in anger is such a slippery slope that any magic space wizard knight who gives into it once will be working openly for evil and mass murdering children by the end of the movie because we expect our magic space wizard knights to only kill with the calm dispassion of a bodhisattva, but IS required to kill because absolute evil exists and they're magic space wizard knights who are there to save the whole galaxy no matter how ridiculous that may seem from a logistical standpoint. Because that is the impossible standard our morality system demands to avoid child murdering cackling evil..."

...

Yes. I expect that the magic space wizard knight who can see the future will find a way to not only spare any civilians, but actively save them.

[Metahuman1]

But it is subtle mass mind control. If you're an American of a certain age & I say " Two all beef patties..."




Did you finish the jingle? Dance puppet ! Dance!

All that ran through my mind was "En, I'm not in a burger mood. Kinda wouldn't mind some breakfast stuff though when I get home. Eggs, scrambled, some bacon, maybe throw a biscut or two in there, yeah, now were getting somewhere.".







golentan : are you positive your not just hating on Jedi, or Star Wars in general, cause it seems to be somewhat popular to do at the moment?

[Darth Ultron]

Yeah, I believe I've heard it said that the hardest people to trick are children and stage magicians.

Stage Magic might provide a good example, as you have two types of viewers:

1.The person that knows magic is not real, and that it is all a trick somehow....but they willingly don't want to know how it is done so they can be ''amazed''. Weak Mind.

2.The person that knows magic is not real, and that it is all a trick somehow...and wants to figure out and find out how it was done. Strong Mind.

[An Enemy Spy]

Stage Magic might provide a good example, as you have two types of viewers:

1.The person that knows magic is not real, and that it is all a trick somehow....but they willingly don't want to know how it is done so they can be ''amazed''. Weak Mind.

2.The person that knows magic is not real, and that it is all a trick somehow...and wants to figure out and find out how it was done. Strong Mind.

Wanting to be amazed by a magic trick doesn't mean you have a weak mind, it just means you want to be amazed by a magic trick. That's like saying the only intelligent way to watch a movie is to constantly scan the background to spot any mistakes in the set design and completely ignore the actual story being told.

[HandofShadows]

But it is subtle mass mind control. If you're an American of a certain age & I say " Two all beef patties..."

Foundation (http://www.scp-wiki.net/) web crawlers have located a Class 2 Memetic Hazzard in this thread. Counter Meme protocol 3-V8 established. (http://starslip.chainsawsuit.com/starslip/starslip-number-680/)

:smallbiggrin:

[Bohandas]

In D&D it's a function of hit dice and class/type. Thus a level 1 wizard has a lower will save than a 12 hd hill giant who in turn has a much lower will save than a level 12 wizard

[sktarq]

But it is subtle mass mind control. If you're an American of a certain age & I say " Two all beef patties..."
Did you finish the jingle? Dance puppet ! Dance!

Being 36 I kinda expect I am of that age and grew up in the USA...and have not the slightest clue.

But for real mind control look to effective Branding. Strongly branded companies (examples Apple, Ferrari) light up the same parts of the brain as religion does. Does advertising effect this branding...you bet. But look at the reaction to the Newton by Apple fans after Steve Jobs trashed one in 98 .... it was a social effect built by the idea of the company. And advertising has part in building that.

who is likely to be effected by such manipulation? Most people to some extent. Even people who are experts in the field get some effect when it is applied to them. Other people have built up counter effects to the same stimuli which can block its behavioral effect. And then there always going to be a few weirdos.

[gooddragon1]

1 hit dice in a class with poor will saves + wisdom penalty.

[Darth Ultron]

But it is subtle mass mind control. If you're an American of a certain age & I say " Two all beef patties..."
Did you finish the jingle? Dance puppet ! Dance!

But this is just having a good memory....and/or just liking odd/crazy/wacky things.

It is not ''mind control'' to remember something......it is a bit more like ''someone tells you something, like the moon is a giant dragon egg, Atlantis crab people rule the world or the planet is getting warmer because of people'' and you utterly believe it 100% with no proof.


Wanting to be amazed by a magic trick doesn't mean you have a weak mind, it just means you want to be amazed by a magic trick. That's like saying the only intelligent way to watch a movie is to constantly scan the background to spot any mistakes in the set design and completely ignore the actual story being told.

That is the point: wanting to be amazed is what a weak mind thinks.

[Scarlet Knight]

Advertising is a little different than simply memory. You might remember being taught in school the capital of Norway, but if it is unused, it fades. But an ad is specifically designed to implant something in your mind that someone else wants there, to get you to do something they want you to, preferable unbidden. Often palying on emotion, it often resurfaces decades after implant.

If advertising is too subtle or underpowered, then let me present Exhibit B: Hypnosis. Doesn't work on everyone, but most of us have seen it in practice.

I remember a hypnotist saying "It's true I can't make someone step off a ledge to their death. But I can convince them the ledge is a sidewalk that they can step down from safely and they will smile all the way to the street."

[An Enemy Spy]

That is the point: wanting to be amazed is what a weak mind thinks.

No, not wanting to be amazed is what a cynical mind thinks, and contrary to the opinions of cynics everywhere, cynicism doesn't mean you're intelligent. It typically just means you're a stuck up jerk whose confused having a constant negative attitude with having wisdom. That's the kind of thing a jaded edgelord fifteen year old thinks is the same as maturity.

To use magic tricks as an example: An adult is amazed by the skill of the magician for puling off a trick without giving away the process by which they achieved it. A small child is amazed because they think they just saw a bird appear from thin air.

[ufo]

I feel that "strength of mind" is generally conflated with "strength of character". Narratively, it maintains some suspension of disbelief when some people can be mentally dominated and others can't.

In extension of the above reply (sorry An Enemy Spy, if I'm hijacking your point for something you don't agree with) I also believe that it's a rather toxic trope since it basically presents being stubborn, cynical and unwilling to change your opinions as somehow heroic when that behavior is, outside of fiction, super obnoxious.

[Kitten Champion]

I feel that "strength of mind" is generally conflated with "strength of character". Narratively, it maintains some suspension of disbelief when some people can be mentally dominated and others can't.

Jessica Jones was an interesting commentary on that idea, that the various characters believe on some level that being able to resist mind control is some kind of character-test and being unable to overcome it invalidates one's worth as a human being. In truth it had nothing to do with that of course, but it's easy to blame yourself in part because that concept exists and its something we'd like to believe.

[DomaDoma]

No, not wanting to be amazed is what a cynical mind thinks, and contrary to the opinions of cynics everywhere, cynicism doesn't mean you're intelligent. It typically just means you're a stuck up jerk whose confused having a constant negative attitude with having wisdom. That's the kind of thing a jaded edgelord fifteen year old thinks is the same as maturity.


Jaded edgelords circa the age of twenty are the absolute peak of the syndrome. Toward middle age, the connotation of intelligence seems to quietly drop away in favor of a general despair... but I'm speaking as someone with largely blue-collar social circles. If a cynic manages financial success, it might be a different story.

But that's not weak-minded in the sense that it's meant here. Self-destructive, but not too open to influence. However, I have some serious concerns about myself. For instance, G.K. Chesterton and Mark Steyn have polar opposite positions on the British Empire and the ruling class thereof, but I generally find myself leaning toward the point of view of the one whose book is currently in my hand. That has to be a contributing factor toward the possibility of ensorcellment, no?

[GolemsVoice]

Jaded edgelords circa the age of twenty are the absolute peak of the syndrome. Toward middle age, the connotation of intelligence seems to quietly drop away in favor of a general despair... but I'm speaking as someone with largely blue-collar social circles. If a cynic manages financial success, it might be a different story.

But that's not weak-minded in the sense that it's meant here. Self-destructive, but not too open to influence. However, I have some serious concerns about myself. For instance, G.K. Chesterton and Mark Steyn have polar opposite positions on the British Empire and the ruling class thereof, but I generally find myself leaning toward the point of view of the one whose book is currently in my hand. That has to be a contributing factor toward the possibility of ensorcellment, no?

That's just human nature. Assuming you're not an expert, and both books are more or less well (and convincingly!) written, you tend to agree with the arguments you're currently reading, because you have little frame of reference. Now, a weak mind might just take whatever's currently being said as gospel, and not even realize the conflicting stance. The best illustration of this is probably 1984, where the populace has been so thoroughly drilled and brainwashed they're willing to believe a speech even if the hated enemy and the trusted ally are swapped literally mid-sentence.

[Legato Endless]

Jessica Jones was an interesting commentary on that idea, that the various characters believe on some level that being able to resist mind control is some kind of character-test and being unable to overcome it invalidates one's worth as a human being. In truth it had nothing to do with that of course, but it's easy to blame yourself in part because that concept exists and its something we'd like to believe.

"There's always a choice." As the phrase is most commonly extended to moral arguments. People of character act, they don't sit on the sidelines slack jawed or allow things to happen. It's a convenient fiction to ignore the fact that people often react based on preconditioning in stressful ambiguous situations.

I especially appreciate that Killgrave metaphor also extends out to the audience. I've anecdotally noted a correlation to one's patience with the characters' inability to conclude Killgrave's story arc and one's intimacy with abuse. The frustration of viewers bearing some resemblance to the frustration of onlookers in such situations who give all the right obvious answers to victims but can't understand why the victim doesn't listen and just decide to get out.

Concepts like learned helplessness are counterintuitive easily dismissible bits of propaganda unless you've seen it firsthand. It reminds me of a recent minor controversy about the depiction of domestic violence in the upcoming game Detroit (https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/ne33nd/david-cage-domestic-abuse-detroit-become-human) where trailers seem to imply you can "choose your own adventure" out of an abusive situation.

[DomaDoma]

"There's always a choice." As the phrase is most commonly extended to moral arguments. People of character act, they don't sit on the sidelines slack jawed or allow things to happen. It's a convenient fiction to ignore the fact that people often react based on preconditioning in stressful ambiguous situations.


Isn't "there's always a choice" also a form of preconditioning, though? People who say to themselves "I don't honestly know what I'd do in that situation" tend to cave and panic all the more. (Of course, specifics definitely help. I've myself stood up under serious pressure specifically because I had the Asch experiment for an example.)

[Sapphire Guard]

Yes, JJ was interesting in how it dealt with that, because it was clear that the control couldn't be resisted and several characters were caught for mentally excluding themselves from the ranks of the weak minded that could be dominated.