The Dashing Cavalier!

[Afgncaap5]

tl;dr - Any thoughts on ways to make a good and capable, though not too overpowered, fencing expert?

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A friend is going to start running a 3.5 game, his first attempt as a GM. I can recognize the signs of overeager DMness, grabbing every book and worldbuilding everything, maps literally spilling off of tables as he prepares things, with a villain that he promises will make us bring our A games while he casually okays the players who ask if they can backport Spheres of Power to 3.5. I don't think he *quite* knows how disruptive players can be to literally anything with a stat block, but maybe I'm underestimating him (a quick side explanation about the value of underlings for countering PC action economy was well received, after all.)

Anyway, I wanna have some fun, so this feels like the appropriate time to play a fencing character. I'd like to be capable in the fight, though I'm led to understand that it's frankly inferior to most standard builds. Still, I'm trying to cobble something together. My current possible ingredients include...

-The Swashbuckler class, for the Int bonus to damage if nothing else...
-Maybe the Sneak Attack Fighter ACF mixed with it and the Daring Outlaw feat for full BAB and, I think, full Sneak Attack progression?
-On the other hand, the Half-Elf Fighter ACF just looks fun. A lower hit die, but basically free access to Weapon Focus (Swashbuckling) and better skills?
-Various Skill Tricks
-Scout is... tempting...
-Warblade looks like it can provide some of the "oomph" that the class needs, and the fluff of the class certainly fits the image of a laughing duelist eager to take on anyone
-Things that increase speed and mobility keep jumping out at me; an extra five feet of moving isn't amazing, but sometimes it's miraculously what you need.
-Heaven help me, I'm considering some Incarnum boosts here and there while the rest is mostly magic-free, and the Rilkans feel like an entire race of this kind of character.
-Spheres of Might *did* just come out...

Naturally, I can't take all of these options, but these are the kinds of things rattling around my head. Anything I missed? Any particular potholes you'd recommend I sidestep or builds that I should consider?

[Sinewmire]

Swashbucklers are made for this, and are utterly OP in a casual group! One of my players is a swashbuckler, and he hits hard, almost always hits and is very difficult to land blows on.

[Cheech]

Swashbucklers are made for this, and are utterly OP in a casual group! One of my players is a swashbuckler, and he hits hard, almost always hits and is very difficult to land blows on.

I'd say swashbucklers are only OP in a very casual group. I'm playing a 2-weapon fighting daring outlaw in a campaign at the moment, and I'd characterise it as low tier 3 - able to do a lot of damage, and with enough skill points to be moderately useful outside of combat. My experience is that he's not really that difficult to land blows on, though - the full plate and animated shield dwarven cleric in the party has way higher AC.

With all that said, daring outlaw is a fun, simple build, and seems like a good fit for what you're describing. He dances around the battlefield quite a lot, to set up sneak attacks, instead of standing there, trading blows like some other melee characters I've played.
I think you can afford to lose 1 base attack and a few hit points by going rogue 4 instead of the fighter ACF, and that it's worth it for the extra skill points, but of course that's your call.

I've found travel devotion and anklets of translocation invaluable for this character, both for getting full attacks off, and for getting the hell out of dodge when things haven't exactly gone to plan.

Also, the obvious for this kind of build - darkstalker feat for sneaking around, deathstrike bracers to broaden sneak attack's applicability

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Seconding Daring Outlaw for any Swashbuckler build. It gets even better if your DM is permissive enough to have it advance ACFs that replace Sneak Attack, as Feat Rogue+Swashbuckler+DO is essentially a flat upgrade to the casual Fighter.

[Fizban]

First define what swashbuckler actually means to you. I feel like most people have little idea other than "uh, dex and skills?" but every class has skills, and while dex is the least supported melee combat stat it's also the most supported melee combat stat. As you've already laid out, there are a ton of different things you could do, so stop and think what those mechanics actually mean.

For myself, I rather hate Daring Outlaw. Sneak attack is not swashbukly- it's about knives in the back, ganging up or killing people before they know you're there, but it's just the only real benefit you can get from feinting, which is a "take this action to use a skill and sword good" feat which makes people latch on. But I have a bunch of homebrew for more fency swashy stuff, so I can be picky. If Deft Strike/Spot the Weak Point were available earlier and as a move action, there'd be options. I don't really see "skills" as neccesary for swashbuckling either- you can be a swift swordsman without being a diplomancer/mr glibness. Dex is not actually neccesary either- the secret to a good dex build is not using dex, gg no re. Finesse comes from having the options and using them, not from changing your attack stat.*

Anyway, now Scout, that has potential. Skirmish actually encourages spring/swing-by attacking. Or switch it for Riposte from the WE, which makes you good at killing people who try to kill you, but not so good at killing them as they flee- so you have to chase and corner them like a proper action scene (you can also swap hiding in nature for hiding in city). Throw in the Dungeon Specialist ACF so you can zoom up ropes and ladders and midly textured walls (with enough bonus), and also reap a +2 AC literally any time you're standing next to a wall, which is a lot of times. Worried about enemies not attacking you? Wearing light armor in melee should make you the first target. Obvious main downside is that with 3/4 BAB you still want a source of bonus attacks, which in 3.5 melee means TWF or TWF.

Well, there are maneuvers that give extra attacks, but if you're gonna dip those you might as well just go all-in instead. Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, all have swashbuckly moves.

I think the most overlooked point will be AC, because it always is. But just like a Monk, the first problem isn't the damage: it's the not getting hit. Speedy action characters never get hit, but in DnD Monks have no armor, dex builds TWF instead of carrying a shield (and even if they did they have the same AC cap as heavy armor anyway), and char-op hates AC. So monks and dex-types get hit and look stupid. How to AC? Shield, Combat Expertise, Pearl of Black Doubt, add gravy to taste. Don't like AC boosting feats or PrCs? Boost your attack roll and take Improved Combat Expertise, because the more accurate you are the more you can just nope their attacks.

What do you think all those back and forth fencing scenes are? That's not lol/feint/sneak attack, it's two guys with a ton of skill intentionally trying to not get hit. Why is feinting a thing? Because feinting strips the dodge bonus from expertise so you can get a hit in without dropping your own defense. Sure, sneak attack makes you even more lethal in that environment, but so are sublime maneuvers.

Right, don't forget Uncanny Dodge. Not that it blocks feinting, but it stops anything else from stripping dodge besides immobility.

*Seriously, if you reverse things and look at what you actually get for dex build, what is it? Dex increases reflex save and initiatitve (which you can boost with feats), ranged attacks (not the point if you're a melee build), and allows you to wear lighter armor (without increasing your AC cap). Reflex saves and initiative are both easily boosted by simple feats and magic items. So why spend a bunch of feats and levels trying to convert melee attacks to dex, when you could just spend the same or less feats pumping reflex/initiative? A "dex" build only needs enough dex to qualify for its desired feats and fill the dex cap on a Breastplate or Chain Shirt, so 19 for Greater TWF. Choose starting dex so you reach those feats on time with your level bonuses, then push str/con like any other melee build.

[Afgncaap5]

Seconding Daring Outlaw for any Swashbuckler build. It gets even better if your DM is permissive enough to have it advance ACFs that replace Sneak Attack, as Feat Rogue+Swashbuckler+DO is essentially a flat upgrade to the casual Fighter.


I was actually rattling a few things like that around in my head. If I treat Sneak Attack less as a backstab and more like the kind of thing that swift strike or sudden strike suggest, I wouldn't want to give it up, but fighter feats are fun. Having said that, while I'm not keen on taking four levels of Fighter (even a Half-Elf Fighter), getting Weapon Specialization and the Assassin's Stance stance to get a bonus to sneak attack so that Swashbuckler levels would start granting fighter feats and sneak attack could be fun, but at that point I'd have already dedicated a fourth of my available levels to not being a Swashbuckler which feels counter intuitive (plus Assassin's Stance doesn't really strike me as something a glory-seeking daredevil would train to get.)



First define what swashbuckler actually means to you. I feel like most people have little idea other than "uh, dex and skills?" but every class has skills, and while dex is the least supported melee combat stat it's also the most supported melee combat stat. As you've already laid out, there are a ton of different things you could do, so stop and think what those mechanics actually mean.

I think I'm looking for more of an Errol Flynn than a Douglas Fairbanks, really. While mobility's important to both, I see this character more as someone who wants to strike an imposing figure to great effect than bounce around the environment (as much fun as said envirobouncing sounds.)



For myself, I rather hate Daring Outlaw. Sneak attack is not swashbukly- it's about knives in the back, ganging up or killing people before they know you're there, but it's just the only real benefit you can get from feinting, which is a "take this action to use a skill and sword good" feat which makes people latch on. But I have a bunch of homebrew for more fency swashy stuff, so I can be picky. If Deft Strike/Spot the Weak Point were available earlier and as a move action, there'd be options. I don't really see "skills" as neccesary for swashbuckling either- you can be a swift swordsman without being a diplomancer/mr glibness. Dex is not actually neccesary either- the secret to a good dex build is not using dex, gg no re. Finesse comes from having the options and using them, not from changing your attack stat.*

I do mostly agree that sneak attack isn't exactly what I want. In some ways, I'd almost prefer the Ninja's sudden strike ability, because it's more of a "hit the weak spot while your opponent's guard is down" thing, and I definitely want to be more of a Swashbuckler era character than a "cape and sword" era character. I looked at Scout because it felt more like a decent middle ground that gave some stylistic benefits of sudden strike without some of the other elements of the Ninja build that are less appealing to me for the character.

As for Deft Strike and Spot The Weak Point, I've actually discussed a few things with my GM for this, and he says that both of those together would allow for a "bonus" to the action to change it to a Move instead of a Standard, and he even suggested that I might be able to get one or both at a lower level, but I don't know the details.



Anyway, now Scout, that has potential. Skirmish actually encourages spring/swing-by attacking. Or switch it for Riposte from the WE, which makes you good at killing people who try to kill you, but not so good at killing them as they flee- so you have to chase and corner them like a proper action scene (you can also swap hiding in nature for hiding in city). Throw in the Dungeon Specialist ACF so you can zoom up ropes and ladders and midly textured walls (with enough bonus), and also reap a +2 AC literally any time you're standing next to a wall, which is a lot of times. Worried about enemies not attacking you? Wearing light armor in melee should make you the first target. Obvious main downside is that with 3/4 BAB you still want a source of bonus attacks, which in 3.5 melee means TWF or TWF.

Generally not a fan of TWF, which is a shame because it's undeniably effective. Still, jabbing with a dagger in the off-hand isn't exactly counter to what I'm going for. As for Riposte and Dungeon Specialist, I'd never heard of those before... Dungeon Specialist appeals more to me (feels like the kind of thing someone would have if they're keen on leaping over tables or swinging from chandeliers or striking poses), but Riposte is probably "less fun, more capable".



Well, there are maneuvers that give extra attacks, but if you're gonna dip those you might as well just go all-in instead. Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, all have swashbuckly moves.

That's part of why the Warblade is on the table (and why I've glanced once or twice at Swordsage.) It's a fun set of abilities, and the Warblade class fluff is, frankly, perfect.

[Sir Chuckles]

First define what swashbuckler actually means to you.
<Proceeds to define Swashbuckling for OP via rant>

Gonna agree with the consensus of Daring Outlaw. Sneak Attack is merely striking a vulnerable opening, which, to this guy who plays a swashbuckler-ish character every chance he gets, sounds very much like fauncy rapier fun.

I've had great success with Adaptable Flanker for getting Sneak Attacks. If you want to go the funny route, you can do a Ring of Blinking and Pierce Magical Concealment at higher levels for always-on Sneak Attacks.

To offer up an odd little side option brought about by the name of the thread, you can look over to Pathfinder's Cavalier for the Daring Champion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo-cavalier-archetypes/daring-champion) archetype. I only bring it up because I genuinely thought that that was what this thread would be about by the title.

[Eladrinblade]

An elf warblade with a courtblade, stats something like 14/18/12/14-16/x/12, power attack & weapon finesse is probably your objectively best option. Let's you use dex for attacks without detracting from your damage much, while giving you awesome combat ability and Int synergy.

That said, ask your DM if you can use the PF duelist. Elf swashbuckler 3/hit'n'run sneak attack fighter 3/duelist x, using an off-hand defending light weapon via TWF but not accepting attacks with it. Or just try to get the PF swashbuckler class, which is the whole package on it's own.

Or forget duelist and use a small spiked shield off-hand with TWF and Improved Shield Bash (you lose a feat, but gain a boost to AC without waiting/spending for animated shields and still get off-hand attacks, and you can hold a wand in that hand too boot). You could even try to go into champion of corellon at higher levels to keep the AC/damage boost going.
edit: or just daring outlaw, duh

Scout is my favorite base class, and a 6th level scout with improved skirmish is pretty sweet because they can be all over the battlefield and still deal some damage here and there while having a pretty good AC. But you won't feel like much of a swashbuckler, really. If gestalt is on the table, definitely do this.

[Faily]

I think I'm looking for more of an Errol Flynn than a Douglas Fairbanks, really. While mobility's important to both, I see this character more as someone who wants to strike an imposing figure to great effect than bounce around the environment (as much fun as said envirobouncing sounds.)



I did play an Errol Flynn-inspired Swashbuckler in the Shackled City campaign.

Halfling Swashbuckler/Rogue (Daring Outlaw combo), and went into Thief Acrobat (it doesn't power you up in combat, but you get some incredibly nifty acrobatic abilities that were very handy for me), and the GM-waived the Gnome Requirement for Blade Bravo (Races of Stone) as he agreed that the point of the class was not being a gnome, but being a daring sword-fighter.

It is not at all a powerful build, but it was a build I had a lot of fun with. And as long as I could flank with our party-tank, I did deal a lot of damage as I was dual-wielding.

[gorfnab]

Here's a fairly mobile fencing build I came up with a while ago. It focuses on using Fighting Defensively (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting) options to gain a decent AC as well as some combat options.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.


For a Daring Outlaw based build I like Feat Rogue (UA) 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Sneak Attack Fighter (UA) 3/ Feat Rogue 13 with the feat Daring Outlaw taken at 9th level. This gives you a decent amount of BAB, skills, sneak attack, and feats that can easily be tailored towards a fencer type build.

Here are some handbooks that may help based on what others have posted
Swashbuckler Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10768)
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)
Warblade Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction)

[Afgncaap5]

Ah, some very fun options here... I'd forgotten all about thief-acrobat somehow. I'll need to pour through some of these things and see what I can come up with. Many thanks.

[the_david]

Here's a crazy idea. Play a Knight instead. (As long as you want to play a lawful character that is.) I know, it sounds stupid even if you actually want to play a knight-like character. Here's the thing though:
- You get to challenge opponents, which actually fits the Swashbuckler theme. This also uses charisma, so you get to play a charismatic Swashbuckler instead of an intelligent one.
- The three musketeers rode horses, el Zorro rode on a horse. You get Mounted Combat as a bonus feat! Okay, it's not actually as good as a special mount, but it helps.
- A shield bonus. Guess what? Actual Swasbucklers wore bucklers! That's were the name comes from! (Really, they didn't buckle their swash. They swashed their bucklers.)

Ofcourse, there are some downsides. A lack of skills is one of them. The Knight not being a very good class in the first place is another.

[Fizban]

Here's a fairly mobile fencing build I came up with a while ago. It focuses on using Fighting Defensively (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting) options to gain a decent AC as well as some combat options.
One of my potential tweaks is letting Deadly Defense give +1d6 for every -2 of Combat Expertise, instead of just the 1d6, which effectively turns the 2-3 feat combo into a version of Power Attack that boosts AC (reliable 3.5/-2 damage return as long as you don't mind it not multiplying on crits)- I'd worry it might actually be too good at that point. Either way, letting Einhander's +2 apply when using Combat Expertise should be a no-brainer.

Knight? Yeah, I can see it. Since Armor Mastery is actually a pretty significant feature, giving up all but light armor ought to be worth a refund to shore up the skills. Otherwise the class is fine at what it does, it's just not perfect aggro control or perfect aggro attack. It does have full BAB with the ability to self-buff for a bit more- Fighting Challenge lags a little behind rage, but not by a ton when you're one-handing anyway.

Knight: Fort save is now High, gain tower shield proficiency, Call to Battle overturns fear save automatically and grants a new save against another ongoing effect if any (like Ex Resurgence), Daunting Challenge frightens on failed/shaken on successful save (lasts 5+cha rounds). Shield Ally works on spells and other effects at 10th, Improved Shield Ally does the same immediately.
Armor Mastery is basically a license to get your mobility back even though not using light armor, so the knight is built for more mobile AC. Stripping this out means maintaining that requires light armor, which means they're obliged to spend more on dex and thus lose some offense, which in turn means they deserve some skills back. Swap the save over to reflex if you want. As you can see, the only issues I take with the other knight stuff is that the non-Test of Mettle effects are so lowballed compared to the obvious spells: Resurgence, Fear, and Shield Other. Fix those and they're plenty usable as support for your sword arm.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Sorry, might not have been clear in my previous post OP. I wasn’t suggesting Fighter levels, but rather the typical Daring Outlaw build with the Feat Rogue ACF that swaps Sneak Attack for Bonus Feats. If the DM allows it, you get a dextrous martial with high skill points, lots of feats, and Precise Strike.

[DEMON]

Fencing? I'm thinking dueling. Or did I get that notion wrong?

Anyways, thirding or whatever-the-current-number-is-ing the Dargin Outlaw option is, but... with a twist.

Ask your DM (nicely) if he would be willing to allow you to trade the Sneak Attack progression for Riposte (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). It is certainly weaker than Sneak Attack, but for a casual group... might just work.

I might be wrong, but this seems to me like a better fit for a "duelist".

Also, I don't think the Half-Elf sub levels are too hot, but the Swashbuckler ACFs (Shield of Blades and Swift and Deadly) are lovely for a 2WFer (Arcane Stunt is also great, but replaces Grace, which is required for Daring Outlaw). Also, speaking of Fighter, I must, once again, recommend the Hit-and-Run-Tactics AFC from Drow of the Underdark. And the Sneak Attack Fighter variant, if we're only dipping a single level...