Lord Soth - overpower Build

[Dlabuga]

Welcome boys,

I’m going to play an homebrew campaign, and i want to create a PC similar to Lord Soth, using Death Knight Template from MM II.

I want to use two handed weapon and an animated shield for push more damage.

With some spells with persistent arcane or divine or both 😎.

But the most important thing, an Devil Deity/Lord will raise me again to complete he’s goal in Material Plane.

I’m going to infiltrate in a group of neutral/good characters and I must be a normal person, maybe using disguise self or something similiar and undetected alignment.

I think Lawful Evil will be my alignment.

I’ll start at level 14 - 32 buy point system - all 3.5 books are allowed, except Dragon Magazine.

I think it’s all.

Any questions, just ask.

Thank you.

[ATHATH]

What, exactly, is your question?

Did you receive permission from the other players to play a traitor/mole?

What is the optimization level of the rest of the party? What builds are they playing?

[Eldariel]

So...you're asking for build advice? Be Cleric, Rebuke yourself, buff yourself, persist some stuff, go to town. Sounds like that's in the cards anyways and Clerics are both, some of the best magical melee types and some of the best undead buffer types.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm confused. Soth is Chaotic Evil, not lawful evil. He also has issues with obeying other people, so the idea of being raised over and over again is strange. Also, he's not a spellcaster, so the spellcasting is also strange. How is this character connected to Lord Soth?

[Dlabuga]

What, exactly, is your question?

Did you receive permission from the other players to play a traitor/mole?

What is the optimization level of the rest of the party? What builds are they playing?

I’m looking for a powerplay build with death knight template.

The DM fave this permission.

My grp are:

Cleric/radiant servent of pelor
Fighter/barb/exoticweapom/berzerker
Barladin/word of creation
Incantatrix
Wizard/archivist/mystic theurgy
Crusader/cleric/ruby Knight Vindicator

[Dlabuga]

So...you're asking for build advice? Be Cleric, Rebuke yourself, buff yourself, persist some stuff, go to town. Sounds like that's in the cards anyways and Clerics are both, some of the best magical melee types and some of the best undead buffer types.

Sounds good, but I’m looking for more detail, like full build with feats

[Dlabuga]

I'm confused. Soth is Chaotic Evil, not lawful evil. He also has issues with obeying other people, so the idea of being raised over and over again is strange. Also, he's not a spellcaster, so the spellcasting is also strange. How is this character connected to Lord Soth?

I don’t want to be Lord Soth, just the style.

I’m not going to be raised again and again. Just one time to conclude my goal.

[BWR]

How do you expect to get along with a cleric who hates undead?
Finding you out will be pretty easy, you know.

[Boggartbae]

thats a bit much, but I'll give you what I can.
For ability scores, I would buy this array before the deathknight template modifications.
14
12
7
10
18
13
Also, see if you can be venerable aged before you become undead. It will give you +3 to all of your mental ability scores, and the undead type will wipe out the penalties. you could also then take a point out of wisdom and intelligent put them into strength.

Base race I'm assuming will be human, although I've always been partial to undead orcs myself.

In terms of class, I recommend Cleric 9/Ordained Champion 5, with the domains of Trickery, War, and Undeath (ordained champion gives you the war domain for free, and Undeath is mostly there for extra turning)

Feats should be these:
Necrotic Cyst (gives cool spells)
Malign Spell Focus (+2 to dc of evil spells)
Extend Spell (required for persist spell)
Persist Spell (makes buffs last all day
Divine Metamagic: persist spell (makes your persist spells free)

Then you can divine metamagic persist spells like Righteous Might and Boneblade, and then quicken Divine Power once you're in combat using Ordained Champion abilities, and also then flamestrike every round for free.
If you're wondering what to persist, just google "best spells to persist" and look at what other people say. there are a ton of options.

I threw in Necrotic Cyst because I've always liked the idea of secretly implanting cysts in all my party members, and then making them explode later when I feel like it. That being said, it's not the most powerful option, so you might want to switch it and malign spell focus out for power attack and another melee feat (or skip the extra feat and be an orc :smallsmile:)

For gear, just remember that you can cast Magic Vestment and Greater Magic weapon, which should last all day (or just persist Boneblade for pretty good damage) You also have a d12 hit die and are immune to most things, so you won't need to spend too much protecting yourself (but if you die you will never come back)
Get an altar to you demon lord and enchant it with a permanent Desecrate Effect. Even better if you can get this too be present at the time of your animation, because it will give you +2 hp per hit die.
Also something that gives you fire immunity, so you can blast yourself and everything around you and survive.

hope this helps

[Dlabuga]

How do you expect to get along with a cleric who hates undead?
Finding you out will be pretty easy, you know.

Veil spell can supply this

[Dlabuga]

thats a bit much, but I'll give you what I can.
For ability scores, I would buy this array before the deathknight template modifications.
14
12
7
10
18
13
Also, see if you can be venerable aged before you become undead. It will give you +3 to all of your mental ability scores, and the undead type will wipe out the penalties. you could also then take a point out of wisdom and intelligent put them into strength.

Base race I'm assuming will be human, although I've always been partial to undead orcs myself.

In terms of class, I recommend Cleric 9/Ordained Champion 5, with the domains of Trickery, War, and Undeath (ordained champion gives you the war domain for free, and Undeath is mostly there for extra turning)

Feats should be these:
Necrotic Cyst (gives cool spells)
Malign Spell Focus (+2 to dc of evil spells)
Extend Spell (required for persist spell)
Persist Spell (makes buffs last all day
Divine Metamagic: persist spell (makes your persist spells free)

Then you can divine metamagic persist spells like Righteous Might and Boneblade, and then quicken Divine Power once you're in combat using Ordained Champion abilities, and also then flamestrike every round for free.
If you're wondering what to persist, just google "best spells to persist" and look at what other people say. there are a ton of options.

I threw in Necrotic Cyst because I've always liked the idea of secretly implanting cysts in all my party members, and then making them explode later when I feel like it. That being said, it's not the most powerful option, so you might want to switch it and malign spell focus out for power attack and another melee feat (or skip the extra feat and be an orc :smallsmile:)

For gear, just remember that you can cast Magic Vestment and Greater Magic weapon, which should last all day (or just persist Boneblade for pretty good damage) You also have a d12 hit die and are immune to most things, so you won't need to spend too much protecting yourself (but if you die you will never come back)
Get an altar to you demon lord and enchant it with a permanent Desecrate Effect. Even better if you can get this too be present at the time of your animation, because it will give you +2 hp per hit die.
Also something that gives you fire immunity, so you can blast yourself and everything around you and survive.

hope this helps

That’s what’s im talking about.

Thx alot... btw, are u sure if I became undead I’ll wipe the age penaltys?

[Boggartbae]

That’s what’s im talking about.

Thx alot... btw, are u sure if I became undead I’ll wipe the age penaltys?

Nope, not sure at all! I've always ruled it that way, and Xykon lost his venerable penalties when he became a Lich, but there is no RAW for it, although I would think that the negative energy coursing through your muscles would help with the issue somewhat. Check with your DM on what they think.

[Elkad]

Did you receive permission from the other players to play a traitor/mole?

Wait, what?

[Captn_Flounder]

Wait, what?

My thoughts exactly.

[ATHATH]

The DM fave this permission.
You didn't answer my question. Did the other players give you OOC permission (obviously not IC permission) to do this?

How far are you willing to go with your betrayal? Are you willing to kill other PCs? Just spy on them? Help the BBEG?

Does the game allow PvP? If not, what will happen when you are inevitably found out after the Radiant Servant of Pelor accidentally fries one of your veiled/disguised undead while trying to kill another (enemy undead)?

[Mr Adventurer]

Becoming undead doesn't reverse any aging effects.

The maximum effects of age on your statistics are +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha and -6 to Str, Dex, and Con.

Being Undead will remove your Con score, giving you Con - (and a Con modifier of +0).

But the other statistic penalties will remain.

[Elkad]

You didn't answer my question. Did the other players give you OOC permission (obviously not IC permission) to do this?

How far are you willing to go with your betrayal? Are you willing to kill other PCs? Just spy on them? Help the BBEG?

Does the game allow PvP? If not, what will happen when you are inevitably found out after the Radiant Servant of Pelor accidentally fries one of your veiled/disguised undead while trying to kill another (enemy undead)?

This is the cause of my "Wait, what?"
Betrayal? Damn right. Spying on them? Yup. Using mind control on party members and then playing it off? (That creature had a fear aura, I was just pushing you past it so we could win.). Stealing from party members (or hiding treasure, same thing)? Yup. Help the BBEG? Of course not, I want his job. The goal is to get to the final confrontation and kill EVERYONE! And of course make it look like a near-TPK where I gloriously triumphed as the lone survivor.

I've never had to keep my undead safe from The Burning Hate, but I've done similar things. Like consorting with devils with a Paladin in the party. And not gotten caught. Non-detections are useful.


As to "Does the game allow PvP?". There is nothing in the rules about PvP. And I've never had a DM actually say "No PvP" before a game.
The closest I've come to that is having a DM allow PvP, then next session declare no-PvP and undo the whole thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18597934&postcount=40), which resulted in the campaign unraveling and all the players bailing.

PvP is fun. So is putting one over on the other characters. Not every game, but often enough to make the consideration of betrayal be a real thing. Which is as it should be. Sometimes Boromir should actually stab Frodo and take the Ring.

[CharonsHelper]

This is the cause of my "Wait, what?"
Betrayal? Damn right. Spying on them? Yup. Using mind control on party members and then playing it off? (That creature had a fear aura, I was just pushing you past it so we could win.). Stealing from party members (or hiding treasure, same thing)? Yup. Help the BBEG? Of course not, I want his job. The goal is to get to the final confrontation and kill EVERYONE! And of course make it look like a near-TPK where I gloriously triumphed as the lone survivor.

This is what some groups refer to as the "**** move".

D&D is a team based game, and this sort of thing should be discussed before being done.

I once DM'd a short (3-4 sessions) murder mystery campaign where the entire plot was that one PC was the murderer and was being sneaky & eventually backstabbed the group. Even with that premise it still left a bad taste in the other players' mouths and I ended up regretting it.

@OP - you're assuming that a cleric will never pass their Will save on your Veil spell? :smalleek:

[Elkad]

This is what some groups refer to as the "**** move".

D&D is a team based game, and this sort of thing should be discussed before being done.

I once DM'd a short (3-4 sessions) murder mystery campaign where the entire plot was that one PC was the murderer and was being sneaky & eventually backstabbed the group. Even with that premise it still left a bad taste in the other players' mouths and I ended up regretting it.

No, it's a role-playing game. Which generally means team, but not always.

When two Paladin's (of different deities) come to blows over the "Kill the Baby Orcs vs Start an Orcphanage" discussion, that's roleplaying. And then the 2 players go out to dinner together after the game. Because it's all in fun.

I've put a traitor in the party as an NPC (Zert in ToEE), and then had a player bring his girlfriend to the game unexpectedly. I pulled her aside, and offered her a choice of the traitor or making a PC. She picked the traitor, came to every session, and did a glorious job. Nobody had a problem when all was revealed. Oh sure, they were shocked at the betrayal (especially her RL boyfriend) when it happened months later, but they kept it separate from real life. She picked an excellent moment and came within a single hit of wiping the party.

[Boci]

This is what some groups refer to as the "**** move".

D&D is a team based game, and this sort of thing should be discussed before being done.

I once DM'd a short (3-4 sessions) murder mystery campaign where the entire plot was that one PC was the murderer and was being sneaky & eventually backstabbed the group. Even with that premise it still left a bad taste in the other players' mouths and I ended up regretting it.

Yeah, some groups. Such groups should probably just not have traitors/moles. I don't care how many times people blindly insist to the contrary, you cannot accurately roleplay ignorance. Knowing someone is playing a traitor will colour how you perceive their actions.

Betraying isn't for every group, like pretty much any aspect of the game, but to do it right you need the element of surprise.

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah, some groups. Such groups should probably just not have traitors/moles. I don't care how many times people blindly insist to the contrary, you cannot accurately roleplay ignorance. Knowing someone is playing a traitor will colour how you perceive their actions.

Betraying isn't for every group, like pretty much any aspect of the game, but to do it right you need the element of surprise.

Oh - sure. It of course varies by group.

I don't think that a specific instance should necessarily be discussed beforehand, but the premise of potential backstabbing should be on the table to avoid potential OOC drama.

After all - no one gets upset when a villager gets eaten and/or hung in a game of Werewolf, but the USA & Russian players would be understandably upset if Britain suddenly sided with Germany in a game of Axis & Allies. It's all about making sure that it's considered part of the game - which is more subjective.

And yes - D&D defaults to team play. There are RPGs which default to backstabbing (Burning Wheel etc.), but backstabbing in D&D is outside the norm. It can work - but it shouldn't be an assumed part of play.

[Boci]

Oh - sure. It of course varies by group.

I don't think that a specific instance should necessarily be discussed beforehand, but the premise of potential backstabbing should be on the table to avoid potential OOC drama.

If you get the chance sure, but you often won't. If you think "Huh, I wonder if a traitor concept will work for this game" its too late to ask, the other players will connect the dots even if the DM asks for you. In that case, you just have to exercise your judgement about what the group would and wouldn't enjoy, and apologize if you're wrong.