Well, it's finally time to...

[The J Pizzel]

to shut the laptop, slide over the DM screen, and close the DMG. After a long 3-4 year DMing stint, one of my players has asked if I'd mind if he tried DMing. So, with a heavy heart I politely told him.......BE MY FRIGGIN GUEST!!!!!!!

Hells yeah, the Pizzel finally gets to play a character again. Now I'm tasked with the ultimate question...what the hell do I play? I've been DMing so long I have no idea what I want to try playing. There's a few builds I've kinda wanted to play, but coincidentally, they'll be useless in his campaign. Here's the 411:

Complete hack-n-slash for the most part. Probably about 70% rollplaying and 30% roleplaying. I've been wanting to try a Beguiler but they're more for social and city campaigns. As well as the Swashbuckler/Fighter with the Complete Scoundrel feat that lets certain class abilities stack. That would be kinda useless in a hack-n-slash I figure. So, what the hell do I play?

My favorite class is the Cleric and Wizard. Both because they require planning and creativity. Also, there's always something to do with those two classes. You never have a round with nothing to do. I can't stand repetion. I can't stand repetion.

So, party build so far is a Scout, a Cleric, and probably a Swordsage. The guy playing the Cleric is all about hella-tanking and meleeing. As well as buffing and debuffing. The Scout and Swordsage are gonna be on damage detail (they're also the newest players). The DM is not gonna be throwing anything remarkably nasty our way, as he is still new to DMing. So I don't need any kind of uber-build. Just something I'll enjoy. So, anythoughts?

So far I've thought of a Duskblade, and uh.....a wizard.....

Oh - books allowed are all Core, Completes, PHBII, Daronomicon.

What yall think??

[-Cor-]

Duskblade. It's what immediately came to mind reading your post. But I see you already thought of that.

Dragon Shaman is a lot of fun with lots of neat little features.

Same book too.

[Bryn]

Well, since you apparently like playing wizards and the party has no arcane support so far, it looks like that would be the way to go :smallwink:

Are there likely to be traps in the dungeon? Because you also don't have a rogue, which might be a problem. You do get some spells, or you could go for an arcane-trickster-y (not necessarily that PrC) rogue/wizard type. Alternatively, Beguilers work well for that sort of thing, and they do have some good save-or-lose spells.

[Drider]

based on the party make up, i'd say a rogue/sorceror or just sorceror, and pump put abilites as cha,dex,con,str,int,wis

[Fixer]

Psion! or Erudite!

Really, I wish I could do what you're doing. :(

[AtomicKitKat]

*mentally channels "FLESHWARPER WITH GRAFTS!" over and over into your brain*:smallwink:

[Bosh]

Some sort of melee build on crowd-control detail? Maybe fighter/warblade with improved trip etc.?

[horseboy]

ultimate skill monkey. Dwarven ranger/rogue duel welding dwarf war axes. Okay, maybe I should think of something sane first. I'm sorry.

[Fhaolan]

ultimate skill monkey. Dwarven ranger/rogue duel welding dwarf war axes. Okay, maybe I should think of something sane first. I'm sorry.

Sane? SANE? This guy's just coming off a 4-year stint of DMing. Sanity is not an option. :smalltongue:

I usually take a break every 3-4 years myself, and go diving down the silliest, most insane character concept. If it dies in the first dozen or so sessions, that's okay, it was just a blow-off-steam concept anyway. I'm not attached to it. :smallsmile: I make sure I explain to the rest of the party why I'm doing it of course. Usually my groups are up for seeing how crazy I can get, since they know I'll make it a point to not overwhelm the rest of the group and take the fun out of their own playing.

It's a hack-n-slash campaign? Are you willing to take a back seat and buff the other players instead of taking the fore yourself? Take a Dwarven Bard, heading towards Dragon Shaman, just for the mental images that just can't reconcile. :smallbiggrin:

[horseboy]

Sane? SANE? This guy's just coming off a 4-year stint of DMing. Sanity is not an option. :smalltongue:

Yeah, that's true. I usually just try and grab the least played discipline/class/whatever. Especially if it's something that nobody's tried an interesting angle on. You know, like a hucksterish Illusionist. Or a K'stulaami taildancer, or a centaur paladin.

[Xefas]

I say make a Transmuter who then goes into Fatespinner. Then, whenever you meet up with the/a BBEG, try to Baleful Polymorph them into a gecko. First, jack up your DC by 5 using Spin Fate, and if they succeed on their first save, give them a -10 with Seal Fate and make them reroll via Fickle Finger of Fate. Then, after they fail, stick them in a terrarium that you carry around on your back. Eventually, you'll have a whole colony of Evil Overlord Geckos to play with in your party's down-time. Disect them, eat them, melt them, make them mate with each other...whatever you wanna do.

Just...don't get caught in big dispel magic traps or anything...

[de-trick]

If this player was annoying you when he played doing stupid things and screwing up the campaign payback time

If not come up with a sensible build

[CockroachTeaParty]

Hey now, don't underestimate the humble Beguiler. Even in a hack n'slash, there's still plenty to do. Plus, they can disable traps and stuff, which would aid your group.

As a beguiler, if all else fails, just start busting out illusions in an attempt to confuse the hell out of people. Make yourself invisible and silent, spider climb on the ceiling, and become the ultimate scout. You simultaneously get to be a full arcane spellcaster, skillmonkey, and party face. It's like a bard/rogue/enchanter/illusionist rolled into one neat little package. I too came off a major DMing run recently, and played as a... player. I played a Beguiler, and it was good, good times.

Some highlights:

Feebleminding the BBEG Death Slaad.

Tricking a white dragon into thinking I was climbing down to his treasure vault with an illusion. The rest of the party wound up fighting it, while I observed the whole combat, invisible, and cackling maniacally.

Our party met a bunch of wild elves, and none of us could speak each other's languages, so I wound up communicating with illusions, making pictures and arrows until they led us to their leaders.

Casting Undetectable Alignment at the start of each day, and casting silenced Glibness before any bluff check, getting absurd +43 Bluff checks.

[greenknight]

As CockroachTeaParty said, Beguiler's still a good choice, depending on the party level. And Wizard is good too, especially since you've got the physical attacks covered in your party. Or you could try a Druid, since they also have something useful to contribute in just about any campaign.

[akumadaimyo]

to shut the laptop, slide over the DM screen, and close the DMG. After a long 3-4 year DMing stint, one of my players has asked if I'd mind if he tried DMing. So, with a heavy heart I politely told him.......BE MY FRIGGIN GUEST!!!!!!!

Hells yeah, the Pizzel finally gets to play a character again. Now I'm tasked with the ultimate question...what the hell do I play? I've been DMing so long I have no idea what I want to try playing. There's a few builds I've kinda wanted to play, but coincidentally, they'll be useless in his campaign. Here's the 411:

Complete hack-n-slash for the most part. Probably about 70% rollplaying and 30% roleplaying. I've been wanting to try a Beguiler but they're more for social and city campaigns. As well as the Swashbuckler/Fighter with the Complete Scoundrel feat that lets certain class abilities stack. That would be kinda useless in a hack-n-slash I figure. So, what the hell do I play?

My favorite class is the Cleric and Wizard. Both because they require planning and creativity. Also, there's always something to do with those two classes. You never have a round with nothing to do. I can't stand repetion. I can't stand repetion.

So, party build so far is a Scout, a Cleric, and probably a Swordsage. The guy playing the Cleric is all about hella-tanking and meleeing. As well as buffing and debuffing. The Scout and Swordsage are gonna be on damage detail (they're also the newest players). The DM is not gonna be throwing anything remarkably nasty our way, as he is still new to DMing. So I don't need any kind of uber-build. Just something I'll enjoy. So, anythoughts?

So far I've thought of a Duskblade, and uh.....a wizard.....

Oh - books allowed are all Core, Completes, PHBII, Daronomicon.

What yall think??

I thought you were qutting over 4th ed when I first read all that. :-p lol

[DraPrime]

Are there likely to be traps in the dungeon? Because you also don't have a rogue, which might be a problem. You do get some spells, or you could go for an arcane-trickster-y (not necessarily that PrC) rogue/wizard type. Alternatively, Beguilers work well for that sort of thing, and they do have some good save-or-lose spells.

He doesn't need one. The scout in his party can find traps just as well as a rogue. And as you said, you like playing wizards so go with that. Beguiler isn't bad during combat. Their spells are effective in combat, and they get plenty of skills. What more could you want?

[Dausuul]

Complete hack-n-slash for the most part. Probably about 70% rollplaying and 30% roleplaying. I've been wanting to try a Beguiler but they're more for social and city campaigns. As well as the Swashbuckler/Fighter with the Complete Scoundrel feat that lets certain class abilities stack. That would be kinda useless in a hack-n-slash I figure. So, what the hell do I play?

As others have said, beguilers hold up very well in the dungeon. Anything that's subject to mind-affecting spells is your meat. Things that aren't subject to mind-affecting spells are more troublesome, but you still have plenty of ways to mess with them (hint: slow is your friend).

Not saying you should play one if you don't want to, but beguilers can more than hold their own in hack-and-slash, especially considering that they come with a side of skill-monkey.

[ranger89]

I'll second (third? fourth?) the vote for trying Duskblade. I'm running one now and having a blast. I've found it to be a very versatile class that you can get very, very creative with. I had decided to run one because I wanted to try dabbling in the arcane but still had the urge to hack and slash. Heading into a combat oriented campaign, I think you'll enjoy the class for the same reasons.

Please let us know what you decide and enjoy your DM break. :smallsmile:

[The J Pizzel]

Hey guys, sorry I couldn't update yall...been away from the computer.

So the Cleric and Scout are for sure. The other player was playing a Warblade in my campaign (the one that finishing up) and that was his first character. He's thinking of playing a Swordsage (which is what I wanted to play) and I figured I would just roll over and let him play it. Since he's still the newbie in the group. However, as a Warblade he loved having an ubber high AC and taking hits for the party. So he's thinking of playing a Knight or Crusader. Whose damage output isn't nearly as high as a Swordsage's would've been. If he does play a Knight, then I'll probably go Swordsage.

Now, worst case scenario = he plays a Swordsage. I appreciate the clearing up of the Beguiler. I've only read them, I've never put one on paper. I think I'll put one on paper and see how they look. So you guys don't think the skill would be wasted with a scout in the party. We will only have a 4 man group and I don't want to double up on class skills since every role is vital. The Cleric will be tanking and buffing. The Scout will be ranged skirmishing and the Swordsage will be laying down some heavey damage. So, does a Beguiler have enough support spells to justify taking it (I honestly didn't even realize they get slow. Do they get Tasha's Hideous Laughter and other good stuff like that?

Also, I know Wizard is the ideal choice...I just don't really want to play one right now. I've played them before and I love contribuing to the paty in subtle ways (see also: Bard) but I'm just not in the mood for a Wizard.

Which brings us to the Duskblade. I played a Duskblade for about 4 sessions about a year ago. I absolutely loved it. Quickcasting True Strike and arcane channeling a Shocking Grasp with Blades of Blood already active was great fun. But, once again. The tanking and damage dealing will be taken care of. So my quesiton about the Duskblade is this. Do they have any good support spells. Stuff like Ray of Enfeeblement, Web, Glitterdust and the like. If they got a good assortment of support and debuff spells (that the Cleric doen't already have, ex: RoE, then I might look into that somemore.

Also, any advice on skills and feats to make the Beguiler a decent contibuter to damage, or should I just focus on spell casting?

Edit - to answer some questions:
The party level is 5
I hate playing Sorcerers, but thanks for the advice.
He said there will be traps.
He was a great player, so no, I don't want to build a nasty PC.
I have no problem handing the spot light to other players (especially the new ones). Besides, I understand that slowing the bad guys and as good as dealing damage to them.

[FireSpark]

Okay, this may be an unpopular choice, but I say go for a tweaked Warmage. WAIT! Hear me out. I say Warmage, because I'm not thinking entirely in game terms, but a little metagame as well. This is a new DM, and you say that the campaign is going to be predominately hack'n'slash. Therefore, the logical thing to have in an arcane caster role is a blaster. And while blasters aren't neccessarily popular around these parts, I think that this situation definately calls for one. And since combat seems to be a given, it wouldn't hurt to be having your arcane caster wearing some armor.

So whip up a simple high Dex/high Cha character, grab Spell Focus(evocation), and go blow **** up! :smallbiggrin:

[The J Pizzel]

Fire spark: I hate you for putting a Warmage in my head. I'd completely forgotten about those damn things. As appealing as that sounds, my group has sort of an unwritten rule that no one will play those. Don't asky why. Someone played one a while back and just destroyed everything and took the fun right out of the game. So, no Warmage. Thanks for the advice (and it really is good logic. It'd be a good class for this campaign).

[ranger89]

Which brings us to the Duskblade. I played a Duskblade for about 4 sessions about a year ago. I absolutely loved it. Quickcasting True Strike and arcane channeling a Shocking Grasp with Blades of Blood already active was great fun. But, once again. The tanking and damage dealing will be taken care of. So my quesiton about the Duskblade is this. Do they have any good support spells. Stuff like Ray of Enfeeblement, Web, Glitterdust and the like. If they got a good assortment of support and debuff spells (that the Cleric doen't already have, ex: RoE, then I might look into that somemore..

Duskblades are very versatile which is why I love the class. If an encounter requires an extra tank, the duskblade can fill that role for a period of time. If an encounter needs an arcane caster, the duskblade is there again for awhile.

Here are the Duskblade support spells (or what I consider support becuase they can be used for the good of the party aside from straight blasting):

0: Touch of Fatigue

1: Bigby's Tripping Hand, Cause Fear, Color Spray, Jump, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Resist Energy, Rouse, Stand, Swfit Expeditious Retreat, True Strike

2: Animalistic Power, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Dimension Hop, See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Stretch Weapon, Sure Strike, Swift Fly, Swift Invisibility, Touch of Idiocy

3: Crown of Might, Crown of Protection, Halt, Protection from Energy, Ray of Exhaustion, Regroup

4: Dimension Door, Dispel Magic

5: Hold Monster, Waves of Fatigue

I'm sure I missed a few that should be included in the above list. And I'm pretty sure that none of those spells have a target of "you" only.

The class also gets the following spell like abilities which can be used for support if you get creative: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, and Read Magic.

[alchahest]

oooor, instead of the duskblade, you could go for something a little more off the wall, but in the same vein, and play a hexblade. just be sure to take the no-familiar variant from PHB2. beef up your charisma and intimidate ranks until you're able to take that draconic presence feat that gives you the aura of fear like a dragon's got.

[Ranis]

You ought to be good at number-crunching, so you play the Factotum and for one encounter per day, you pick someone in the party and become better at anything they can do. It's quite fun.

[Weredwarf]

The best choices would be bard(the ultimate support class) or druid(healing,attack spells and wild shape).

[DraPrime]

Best feats for a beguiler?Depends on what type of beguiler you want. Do you want a manipulative lier? Or do you want to create a spellcasting thief? It all depends. Still, anything that boosts your spellcasting abilities or thieving abilities are fair game.

I do have a PrC to recommend. The Magical Trickster from Complete Scoundrel. It's a short yet useful 3 level PrC that still lets you advance your spellcasting skills. Also from Complete Scoundrel I recommend the Master of Masks if you plan on being the manipulative lying kind of beguiler.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

May I make a suggestion?

I know you don't like repitition. I know you don't like repitition. I know you don't like sorcerers. But listen to me for a moment before tuning me out...

Some of my most effective builds were sorcerer Utility/Support casters. Not all sorcerers are all "I launch Three Fireballs, then some Lightning Bolts, then bwhahahaha I start raining down death and destruction with Evocation's Might!". My character had a bunch of Save or Suck and Save or Loose effects (Slow).

Now then, here's what I'd do...

1) Trade in your familiar. You don't want it anyways. It's going to get you killed. You can use PhB II to trade it in for metamagic on the fly... but really, for this build, you want to use Complete Divine to trade it in to gain access to a Divine Domain. Trust me on this. Grab either Strength or War domain, but I suggest War. You want Magic Vestments. Also in here is Divine Power to become one awsome Gish in a pinch, and Blade Barrier for some battlefield control ability.

2) The latest splatbook has a PrC called 'War Weaver'. This will be your ultimate in group buffages. Basically, you set up a 'weave' between party members, then you 'hang' buffs into it. As a standard action, you release ALL buffs held in the Weave at once onto the whole party. It's only a five level PrC, but it's very good.

3) Tell your whole party "Don't get more than a +1 on your weapons or armor, just stack up on bonus-equivelant and other stuff". Fight starts, drop down Magic Weapon, Greater, Magic Vestments, and whatever else you want to (stat bonuses from the 2nd level spells? Haste?). At high levels, just do GMW and MV at the beginning of the day. With a duration of Hours/Level, it'll last all day long.

So my suggestion: Sorc5-6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/War Weaver 5/whatever else/Archmage 2.
Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping are the two you're wanting from AM. With MotAO, you can qualify easy. MotAO also lets you pull that spell you're desperately needing RIGHT NOW out of your arse.

It isn't a particularly broken build, surely not the most power-gamer heavy, but it WILL help your whole party out a LOT. And you can fill up your non-buff slots with Save or Suck or Save or Loose effects and utility (like Greater Teleport and Rope Trick) and not take a SINGLE blaster spell.

[Kurald Galain]

Our party met a bunch of wild elves, and none of us could speak each other's languages, so I wound up communicating with illusions, making pictures and arrows until they led us to their leaders.

While that is very cool, don't beguilers get Comprehend Languages at level one?

Oh and to the OP, yeah, play a beguiler. They're seven flavors of awesome. And you have so many class skills (plus high int) that you can make sure you specialize in something else than the scout.

[Rasumichin]

If this player was annoying you when he played doing stupid things and screwing up the campaign payback time

Now that's mature and will increase the fun for all involved.

[Solo]

May I make a suggestion?
1) Trade in your familiar. You don't want it anyways. It's going to get you killed. You can use PhB II to trade it in for metamagic on the fly... but really, for this build, you want to use Complete Divine to trade it in to gain access to a Divine Domain.

How do you do that?

[DraPrime]

How do you do that?

Alternate class features where you just get rid of your familiar for something else.

[The J Pizzel]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice. Good news. The guy that wanted to play a Swordsage decided he wanted to dabble in magic. He said he didn't want a hardcore magic user (wizard, sorcerer) but he just wanted to have a little to learn on. We all suggested Duskblade (since he's used to dealing damage, this wouldn't be a huge change). So he read up on it and friggin loved it. So, he's playing a Duskblade and I get to finally play a ToB class. I'm going Swordsage. As of now I'm thinking of TWF a light mace (desert wind) and a kukri (tiger claw) and using assasins stance alot. Gives me +2d6 Sneak Attack. Any other good ideas for a Swordsage. I'm pretty clueless. Here's an update on party build:

Cleric - tank and support
Ranger/Scout (with the CS feat that lets them stack) - ranged damage
Duskblade - second tank, little arcane support (Ray of Enf.), and little damage
Swordsage (me) - mobile and flanking damage

[Solo]

Alternate class features where you just get rid of your familiar for something else.

Err... what page in the Complete Divine?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Err... what page in the Complete Divine?

Not sure if it's Complete Divine or Complete Champion... I don't have my books on me at the moment.