The Fighter's Fighter: A Champion Redux

[cogsworther]

The Champion is a true staple of 5e. It’s one of the few archetypes whose abilities are entirely passive and therefore have no reliance on short or long rests. They are the Fighter’s Fighter. When the Barbarian runs out of rage, when the Monk runs out of ki, even when the Battle Master runs out of Superiority Dice, the Champion keeps bringing the hurt.

Of course, the Champion has a few problems. These flaws are not as glaring as some believe, but I believe the Champion suffers from a lack of flavor and versatility.


It is common for archetypes to gain a minor perk around third level which contributes little in the way of mechanical benefits, but gives the archetype a sense of identity. I have heard these abilities called, “ribbons,” though they go by other names.

You may protest that ribbons are a contrivance. After all, a true sense of character identity comes from the player, not from the rules. To a certain extent, this is true. There is no replacement for good play, and one should not delude themselves otherwise. Yet is also true that rules can complement good play. If rules only hindered good roleplaying, then the entire system of D&D ought to be abandoned in favor of puristic fantasy improv.

I argue that ribbons can add important flavor to a character’s personality. Ribbons are to a certain extent a logical extension of a character’s mechanical abilities. For instance, the Battle Master picks up an additional Tool Proficiency at third level. Since Battle Masters are first and foremost professional warriors, it makes good sense that a Battle Master’s skill set would include blacksmithing, alchemy, herbalism, or some other practical skill which they can use to complement their own combat abilities.

Champions do not gain any such ability at third level. I believe they should, and here is what I propose:

For Glory: At third level, a Champion may add their Proficiency Bonus to any Saving Throw to resist Fear or Intimidation.

This ability naturally complements the Champion archetype. It makes good sense that a Champion who routinely fights and hones their deadly skill would be inured to fear or blustering threats. This ability also gives the Champion a little more to do outside of combat since resistance to Intimidation makes them more useful in social interactions.

One could argue that this ability is no good because it is strictly weaker than a Paladin’s Aura of Courage. I believe this claim is only half right. This ability is less potent than a Paladin’s fearlessness, but not every party contains a 10th level Paladin, and just because Paladins are the optimal choice for fear-resistance, that does not mean other archetypes cannot have similar abilities. Consider the Eldritch Knight’s spellcasting. Is it weaker than a Wizard’s? Yes. Does that mean the Eldritch Knight should not have spellcasting? Of course not, the mix of spellcasting and fighting ability defines the Eldritch Knight as a combat mage.

I also fear that the Champion archetype lacks versatility. The Champion’s expanded critical focuses the archetype on maximizing damage over time. This particular focus has led to an overabundance of half-orc, greataxe-wielding champions. I do not mean to say that such, “crit-fishing,” builds are a bad thing. However, it does limit the archetype’s possibilities.
I propose that the Champion archetype follow the lead of the Hunter archetype. If the player selects one passive benefit from a larger group of choices at certain levels, the Champion Archetype could have a little more variability.
Here are my proposed changes:

3: Gain an Additional Fighting Style/expand your Crit Range by 1.

10: Gain an additional fighting style/expand Crit Range by 1/Increase AC by 1

15: Expand Crit Range by 1/Increase AC by 1

The traditional Champion build is still available, but players can also choose to focus more exclusively on Critical Hits, Fighting Styles, or Armor Class.

Some may say that gaining an additional fighting style at third level is overpowered. I disagree. Consider that by multiclassing a player could have 1 Level in Fighter and 2 in Paladin so as to grab a second fighting style. The option to gain two fighting styles at third level has been present since the beginning. Furthermore, since fighting styles cannot be gained more than once, and since they are highly dependent on the sort of character you play, multiple fighting styles simply are not as powerful as you might believe. They grant more in the way of versatility than in raw power.

Others might argue that all of these options are entirely unnecessary. If variety is in short supply, then the logical choice would be to create three separate archetypes that focus on passive benefits for Critical Hits, Fighting Styles, or Armor Class. I admit that this is a pretty good point, but I think my solution is a little more elegant. I believe the number of archetypes should, for the most part, be minimized. I don’t want to sink back into 3.5e’s endless wasteland of Prestige Classes, ridiculous Martial Classes, and the infamous Tomes of Battle. I would also point out that my solution allows a little more freedom to players since it allows a larger number of possible builds.


Let’s quickly recap on the proposed Redux Champion by looking at their archetypal abilities at each level.

3. For Glory
Additional Fighting Style/Improved Critical

7. Remarkable Athlete

10. Additional Fighting Style/Improved Critical/Improved AC

15. Improved Critical/Improved AC

18. Survivor

For Glory: A Champion may add their Proficiency Bonus to any Saving Throw to resist Fear or Intimidation.
Additional Fighting Style: you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature.

Improved Critical: Expand your crit range by one.

Remarkable Athlete: you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus. In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.

Improved AC: Increase your AC by one. This bonus does not apply if incapacitated.

Survivor: you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.


Maybe you like it, maybe you hate it. Let me know about your opinions in the comments.

[Composer99]

Buffing the champion seems fine, overall. As I recall, it's been shown that it falls behind the battle master for damage, so giving it some other goodies to compensate sounds good to me.

I'm not super sold on the "For Glory" feature.

(1) Based on the effects, it seems like a bit of a misnomer. Something like "Bravery" for resisting fear and intimidation seems more appropriate.

(2) The Intimidate part of the rule is pretty fishy. While making saving throws against being frightened is pretty well-defined in the rules, the kind of roll you make when someone else uses the Intimidate skill on you isn't really defined at all. Is it a saving throw? A contested ability check? Does the creature using Intimidate roll the die, and you roll with the punches? That's left to DMs to decide.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but it does make the feature as written rather unreliable.

[Lalliman]

I like the added flexibility. It allows Champions some self-chosen specialisation, instead of being locked into being a crit fisher.

I don't really like abilities that give bonuses against fear, because it has weird implications on the other classes. If such a feature exists, why don't the other front-liners, especially barbarians, get it? The usual explanation given for fear effects is that it's purely a magical mind-altering thing, which is why puny wizards are better at resisting it than hulking barbarians and grizzled veterans. Adding a feature like this throws that on its head, and it ends up not really making sense either way.

The Intimidation part doesn't really make sense. For one, I've never seen an NPC make any kind of social check against a PC. That kind of thing tends to go one way only, because applying it to PCs would take away the player's control. Secondly, even if an NPC were to do that, there almost certainly wouldn't be a saving throw involved. The math of pitting a skill check against a saving throw doesn't add up. More likely the Intimidation check would be opposed by an Insight check, which is how it works in 3rd edition.

[cogsworther]

Well, technically every other front-line Class either has additional resistance to Fear, or can gain resistance through Subtypes.

The Ranger is Proficient with Wisdom saving throws and can get the Steel Will ability at 7th level if the player chooses the Hunter Archetype.

The Monk is Proficient with Wisdom saving throws and gets additional resistance to fear through the Stillness of Mind ability at 3rd level.

The Paladin class is Proficient with Wisdom saving throws, and becomes immune to fear at 10th level with the Aura of Courage ability.

The Barbarian can follow the Berserker Archetype. and get Mindless Rage at 6th level. This ability makes the Barbarian immune to Fear or Charm effects while Raging. The Barbarian can also temporarily suspend any current mind-altering effects by Raging.

Even Rogues gain Proficiency in Wisdom saving throws at 15th level with their Slippery Mind Ability.

The Fighter alone does not gain any abilities that assist him against fear affects.


That being said, you make a good point about saving throws against Intimidation. I suppose it would be better to leave the ability for fear alone, and just not bring Intimidation into it.

[Lalliman]

Well, technically every other front-line Class either has additional resistance to Fear, or can gain resistance through Subtypes.
This is exactly the point. If fear effects are supposed to represent mundane fear, rather than straight-up mental manipulation, then why in the world do Totem Warriors, Battle Masters and Eldritch Knights lack any real defence against it? It seems to me that any person brave enough to be a front-line combatant should have above-average resistance to fear.

It's not that big of a deal though. If you like the addition of fear resistance on the Champion, that's perfectly solid.


The Ranger is Proficient with Wisdom saving throws
No they aren't. Strength and Dexterity. They'll have decent Wisdom for their spellcasting, but no proficiency.

[cogsworther]

I feel so foolish. I got the Ranger's Saving Throws completely mixed up.

One idea which I have been mucking around with is giving the Champion Advantage on Saving Throws against against Fatigue, and Advantage whenever they roll to recover HP from Short Rests or the Second Wind ability.

That would help get away from the murky element of Fear, but it may be hella broken since HP recovery is a big deal.

Maybe you like that idea more or less than the one I currently have listed.

Either way, thanks for your pointers!

[demonslayerelf]

I kinda think that, with a name like "For Glory!", the effect shouldn't even be all that passive. I mean, a bonus against fear is fine, but then you might as well call it "Unshakeable" or something.

I had a thought; When the champion uses Action Surge or Second Wind, they may move upto half of their movement speed automatically, and may end one effect causing them to be frightened.
Because then it's more like a battle cry; The fighter steels his nerves, kicks themselves back into high-gear, shouts "FOR GLORY" or a similar phrase, then rushes in to strike at the enemy with renewed vigor.

[cogsworther]

I kinda think that, with a name like "For Glory!", the effect shouldn't even be all that passive. I mean, a bonus against fear is fine, but then you might as well call it "Unshakeable" or something.

I had a thought; When the champion uses Action Surge or Second Wind, they may move upto half of their movement speed automatically, and may end one effect causing them to be frightened.
Because then it's more like a battle cry; The fighter steels his nerves, kicks themselves back into high-gear, shouts "FOR GLORY" or a similar phrase, then rushes in to strike at the enemy with renewed vigor.

That's brilliant!

As Lalliman pointed out, giving the Champion a passive bonus to fear does not make much sense. After all, wouldn't other Fighter Archetypes be just as brave? Furthermore, if the effect is magical, then why do Champions have extra resistance and not Eldritch Knights?

What you propose might work around that. It suggests that the Champions aren't inherently braver than others, they just can get so filled up with adrenaline that they forget to be afraid, kind of like the Berserker's Mindless Rage ability.

Also, extra movement might with a Second Wind usage might open up some interesting ways to play the game.

[Deleted]

I think to fix the Fighter it needs to have a niche that is outside of "doing damage". Right now you could make any martial and say "I'm a fighter" whereas you can't do that with Rogue or Barbarian. You need RAGE to be a Barbarian and you need Sneak Attack/Cunning Action to be a Rogue, distinct rules that make the classes who they are. The base class needs this fix but subclasses can work as a band aid.

For Glory is niche, but in a bad way. Fear isn't all that common at this level and it's completely overshadowed by the Paladin when Fear/Frightened does start to come online. The additional fighting style is boring because, well, you already have that and you can only use one at a time for the most part, it isn't really anything special. Improved crit is nice, but again, this is something that everyone actually does (critical hits) and doesn't distinguish the Fighter (or champion) as its own thing. Also, Intimidation may be an ability check and not a saving throw.

Remarkable Athlete as it is presented in the PHB is absolutely terrible. Mostly because of how DMs default a lot of str and dex checks to Athletics or Acrobatics (which is supported somewhat in the PHB) but because a lot of constitution checks are constitution saves and constitution checks are very niche, in a bad way. Also this doesn't actually give you anything that shows you're a fighter. Plus, for the most part if the rules are used correctly, you won't need the bonus to these checks as these will be primary stats anyways.

Fighting Styles/AC Bonus are kinda boring for the same reasons as before. You're gaining a level 1 feature at level 10, that would be like gaining a level 1 spell at level 10 that can only be used as a level 1 spell... AC bonuses are not needed in 5e. For the most part your AC will be crazy high and anything that will hit you when you have 20 AC will hit you when you have 25 AC. There is a huge jump in attack bonus once you hit the big leagues... Plus you have 7 other defenses that can be targeted and AC is just the base assumption (Total HP and Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha saves are your other defenses).

I love that people want to fix the Champion, but nothing here really changes the Champion into something it isn't already is.

So what I mean is something like...

Level 3

For Glory: As a reaction to being damaged, you may use your Second Wind. You have advantage on the next weapon attack you make. (Boom, already distinct from other fighters. I would even add in the Purple Dragon Dude's ability too)

Improved Fighting Style: Have new options for Fighting Styles that others can't touch unless they take levels in Fighter. If you want to keep the crit fishing, add it into one of these styles. You can even have multiple styles for the same weapon group. (This shows not only gaining new things, but growth in your base class instead of just gaining a level 1 feature again. Many other classes don't gain the same feature again, but grow)

Improved Great Weapon Fighting: Your attack rolls when using GWF score critical hits on a roll of 19 or 20.
Brutish Great Weapon Fighting: Whenever you use your Great Weapon Fighting Style you may push the target back 5' (not as broken as the Warlock's ability but gives some neat tactical options)


Level 7
Remarkable Athlete: You have advantage with Athletics and Acrobatics checks (essentially the Rogue and Bard's feature, except specifically tuned to the Fighter. This shows a connection to other martially inclined classes, but not a carbon copy). Additionally, you are always considered to have a running start when you jump (because 5' at max extra jumping isn't all that great but not needing the extra running space can make for some fun times... Especially with Athletics advantage).


Note: I hope I don't come off as harsh, I'm very harsh on my own fighter projects and sometimes that can bleed over into other things related to it. The Fighter is one of my favorite classes because I know the potential it can have (Warblade and 4e Fighter).

[Lalliman]

I love that people want to fix the Champion, but nothing here really changes the Champion into something it isn't already is.
That's because Cogsworther isn't trying to change it into anything it isn't already. The Champion is the class for people who want to punch things without worrying about the mechanics. Boring for 99% of players, perhaps, but it's a worthwhile niche to exist. Attempts to fix the Champion should leave it in its intended niche, otherwise you might as well ignore it and make a new archetype that has the features you want.


Improved Fighting Style: Have new options for Fighting Styles that others can't touch unless they take levels in Fighter.
I have the same problem with this as with fear-resisting mechanics. While it sounds good on paper for the fighter to have more fighting styles than other classes, I can't justify to myself why either of the examples you listed wouldn't be available to a paladin (or barbarian, in case of the second one).


Remarkable Athlete: You have advantage with Athletics and Acrobatics checks.
I think permanent advantage should be avoided because it renders situational advantage unusable. This is what Expertise is for.

[Deleted]

That's because Cogsworther isn't trying to change it into anything it isn't already. The Champion is the class for people who want to punch things without worrying about the mechanics. Boring for 99% of players, perhaps, but it's a worthwhile niche to exist. Attempts to fix the Champion should leave it in its intended niche, otherwise you might as well ignore it and make a new archetype that has the features you want.


I have the same problem with this as with fear-resisting mechanics. While it sounds good on paper for the fighter to have more fighting styles than other classes, I can't justify to myself why either of the examples you listed wouldn't be available to a paladin (or barbarian, in case of the second one).


I think permanent advantage should be avoided because it renders situational advantage unusable. This is what Expertise is for.

You can have good opyions and still have a simple character, those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

So the fighter shouldn't have anything for themselves... Bull carp to that.

Expertise is a core mechanic of two classes and of the cleric domain(s). Saying the fighter can't have it is just... What's the argument that others can hut the fighter can't? If you hate the fighter then I guess that's a reason...

[Lalliman]

Expertise is a core mechanic of two classes and of the cleric domain(s). Saying the fighter can't have it is just... What's the argument that others can hut the fighter can't? If you hate the fighter then I guess that's a reason...
Sorry, that must've been phrased unclearly. I meant that you should give the fighter Expertise, in place of advantage. I dislike the core implementation of Expertise specifically because only rogues and bards get it. I'd prefer if all classes had the ability to get Expertise in their most iconic skills.


So the fighter shouldn't have anything for themselves... Bull carp to that.
I think that's kind of a fallacious way to put it. Like any class, the fighter should get whatever features are appropriate to their theme. If you're going to make a feature fighter-exclusive, it should be because that feature is appropriate to the fighter and not (or to a significantly lesser degree) to the other classes. Arbitrarily making something fighter-exclusive just so that the fighter has a unique mechanic is backwards.

I can still support the same concept you proposed with a small alteration. If you introduce several new generally-available fighting styles, some of which can be used simultaneously, the Champion's additional fighting style(s) become more useful by proxy, without having to arbitrarily hide certain options from the other classes.

[demonslayerelf]

Honestly Deleted, your criticisms just seem flat and, quite frankly, pretty dumb.

What do Fighters have separate from all other classes? Uh, ACTION SURGE? Second Wind, anyone? Indomitable?

Nope, what even are those? They only hit things, obviously. All they do is damage and nothing else.

And let's not forget the hyper-exclusive Expertise. A core mechanic of two classes(Even though it's a side-mechanic to Spells, Sneak Attack, Bardic Inspiration...), and it's so exclusive to be in another class's Subclass. Genius.


And on to what you actually made;
For Glory changes about as much as the For Glory everyone else already made. A tiny bonus that any fighter can do, but the Champion gets a slight bonus. Look how much you've set it apart as you give it no other options, but a bonus to HITTING. And fighters just have SO MANY bonus actions, we clearly need to free that up and get rid of the Second Wind.

Your fighting styles are, honestly, terrible. It forces the Champion into taking a feat, for one thing, which isn't allowed in all games. (Read: Mike Mearls has said on several occasions that a class/subclass can't depend on feats.) And, the abilities are terrible. A better crit range sometimes? Push someone 5 feet?
Open Palm Monk; Knocks people back 15 feet, knocks them prone, or forces them to take no reactions. And look, it doesn't depend on a feat!

Remarkable Athlete, like the other two things you made, is terrible. Always advantage on athletics and acrobatics. That separates Champions so much, it's almost like you looked at your PHB, got bored, and said "**** it, I'm a hypocrite anyway, let's drive the point home."


The champion is the fighter's fighter. They are the epitome of being a fighter.
They don't rage, because they don't have to rely on their anger.
They don't have sneak attack, because they aren't dragged down by their need to hide.
They are the fighter, nothing more, nothing less. They are the epitome of being a martial class, because they don't need any little tricks. These are warriors; They steel their nerves, pick up a weapon, ignore their pain, and continue to fight until they stop needing or wanting to fight. They are gladiators; They do not hide or cower. They bare steel, wear bloodied armor, take a deep breath, and keep fighting, no matter how many blades have hit them.

They laugh in the face of the eldritch knight; They're not good enough of a warrior, they have to resort to petty wizardry.
They piss on the grave of the battlemaster; They miss the point of being a fighter, and have to resort to little battle plans.
This is the champion; The absolute epitome of the warrior; Masters of might, pillars of power, and the true gods of anything physical. These guys hit the gym, steel every thought in their minds, and kill entire armies through sheer grit. They kill a thousand men, take a deep breath, and prepare to kill a thousand more.

In my eyes, a champion shouldn't have anything especially unique. Because that's not what they are.
A champion is the epitome of what a fighter is. They don't get maneuvers or superiority dice, or spells or ki. They don't need those things.




Now, all of that said; I did have some ideas. I will not listen to input from Deleted.
At 3rd level, For Glory. While I do like the fear effect, I feel like it should be a bit better, so instead; When they use their Action Surge, they may move upto half their movement, and they gain an additional Bonus Action, as well.
At 7th level, the champion can use Second Wind a number of times equal to their proficiency modifier.
At 10th level, the champion's Indomitable lets them succeed, instead of just giving advantage.
At 18, Survivor is fine, I think.

[Lalliman]

Snip
Hey now, let's keep things civil. Deleted didn't say that Expertise should be exclusive, in fact he was objecting to the misunderstanding that I had claimed that. And I think you're confusing GWF with GWM.

As for the suggestions, the extra bonus action with Action Surge is kind of borked, since it only benefits certain builds. The extra bonus action should honestly be there regardless of archetype.

The other two are pretty nice because they don't add any kind of complication, which as stated before is how I think the Champion should be. The Second Wind buff causes an awful lot of additional healing though, and with these changes the Champion has a ton of powerful defensive buffs and not as many offensive ones. Seems a bit off.

[cogsworther]

I think to fix the Fighter it needs to have a niche that is outside of "doing damage".

I like a lot of your points, but I disagree with that one. A Fighter is a warrior. They do not need additional specialization because fighting is their specialization.

One might argue that they need more specialization which explains how they fight. I would disagree with that as well.

Really, to understand what makes Fighters unique, the thing to ask is what other classes give up by not being a Fighter.

One could simply list mechanics, but I think it's worth looking at what those mechanical benefits represent.

In my opinion, when you look at how Fighters get all Weapon and Armor proficiencies, the ability to choose any Fighting Style at 1st level, the most number of attacks per turn (yes, I am counting Monks), and the most ASI's, all these things point towards Fighters having more martial skill than any other class.

Hear me out.

I'm not saying that Fighters are the most powerful of all the classes (that's clearly not the case), but every Fighter ability is about them being better all-around warriors without relying on any sort of magical might or special power (unless you're an Eldritch Knight, but those guys are basically muscle wizards).

As the old saying goes, the Barbarian is stronger, but the Fighter can swing an axe better. Replace the Barbarian's strength with a Paladin's Smite, or a Monk's Ki, or whichever Martial class ability you like, and the comparison holds.

That's what I wanted to get across with this Champion Redux. That's why all of my changes only give the Champion passive abilities. Doing so keeps the Champion simple while emphasizing the Fighter's role as "best all around warrior."

That being said, you are right in stating that having the option to get an additional Fighting Style at 10th and 15th level is underwhelming. I tried to err on the side of underpowered for this build.

I like your idea of offering Improved Fighting Styles. I'm not a hundred percent certain what they should entail, but they would be a good way to keep the simplicity of the Champion while allowing for more powerful abilities at later levels.

Thank you for your comments and criticisms.

[demonslayerelf]

Hey now, let's keep things civil. Deleted didn't say that Expertise should be exclusive, in fact he was objecting to the misunderstanding that I had claimed that. And I think you're confusing GWF with GWM.

Oh, you're right. Don't acronym people, it's confusing as hell.
Everything else I said still holds, though.


As for the suggestions, the extra bonus action with Action Surge is kind of borked, since it only benefits certain builds. The extra bonus action should honestly be there regardless of archetype.
On the contrary, they can make an attack with one(Assuming they're using two weapons, has multiclassed, or something)
...Actually, you're more or less right on that. I wouldn't say give that to all of them(Feinting Attack would be really awesome, then. Get advantage+bonus damage on two hits, or stack 2d12 extra on one hit...) 'Cus right now, it's just your Dervish builds and Second Wind.

New Idea: As a bonus action, champions may make an attack with disadvantage.


The other two are pretty nice because they don't add any kind of complication, which as stated before is how I think the Champion should be. The Second Wind buff causes an awful lot of additional healing though, and with these changes the Champion has a ton of powerful defensive buffs and not as many offensive ones. Seems a bit off.

I'm actually pretty okay with that. Second Wind isn't a ton of healing(A good Longsword swing can take it out in one hit), for one thing. Indomitable being an auto-success also isn't huge, I think.
And then For Glory is almost exclusively offensive, giving you upto 5 attacks, and an extra 15 or more feet of movement.

It's also pretty fitting with the gladiator image.
He takes a nasty hit by the mace right to hit face, knocking him flat on his ass. He stands up, spits out a tooth, then absolutely wrecks the fool who dare to hit him.

[Deleted]

I like a lot of your points, but I disagree with that one. A Fighter is a warrior. They do not need additional specialization because fighting is their specialization.

One might argue that they need more specialization which explains how they fight. I would disagree with that as well.

Really, to understand what makes Fighters unique, the thing to ask is what other classes give up by not being a Fighter.

One could simply list mechanics, but I think it's worth looking at what those mechanical benefits represent.

In my opinion, when you look at how Fighters get all Weapon and Armor proficiencies, the ability to choose any Fighting Style at 1st level, the most number of attacks per turn (yes, I am counting Monks), and the most ASI's, all these things point towards Fighters having more martial skill than any other class.

Hear me out.

I'm not saying that Fighters are the most powerful of all the classes (that's clearly not the case), but every Fighter ability is about them being better all-around warriors without relying on any sort of magical might or special power (unless you're an Eldritch Knight, but those guys are basically muscle wizards).

As the old saying goes, the Barbarian is stronger, but the Fighter can swing an axe better. Replace the Barbarian's strength with a Paladin's Smite, or a Monk's Ki, or whichever Martial class ability you like, and the comparison holds.

That's what I wanted to get across with this Champion Redux. That's why all of my changes only give the Champion passive abilities. Doing so keeps the Champion simple while emphasizing the Fighter's role as "best all around warrior."

That being said, you are right in stating that having the option to get an additional Fighting Style at 10th and 15th level is underwhelming. I tried to err on the side of underpowered for this build.

I like your idea of offering Improved Fighting Styles. I'm not a hundred percent certain what they should entail, but they would be a good way to keep the simplicity of the Champion while allowing for more powerful abilities at later levels.

Thank you for your comments and criticisms.

Without specialization there is no point in having a fighter be a class.

Anyone can fight, hell, the wizard can fight now.

Might as well just remove the fighter as a class if it has no reason to be there. Any fluff you can give the dighter you can give anyone else. Strength based rogues make great replacement fighters (waaaay better at all the nitty gritty stuff like athletics checks).

This is the problem, people want the fighter to be a fighter but they don't actually want the fighter to have anything worth being a fighter for.

Dealing damage isn't fighting. Grappling, maneuvering, parrying, controling your opponent, throwing your opponent, and countless other things is fighting.

Moving and saying "I hit" is nothing short of what a commoner can do.

[Lalliman]

Dealing damage isn't fighting. Grappling, maneuvering, parrying, controling your opponent, throwing your opponent, and countless other things is fighting.

Moving and saying "I hit" is nothing short of what a commoner can do.

That's one way to look at it, but I could easily rephrase your statement to make the opposite sound reasonable.

"Beating around the bush isn't fighting. Becoming an unstoppable whirlwind of blades and shrugging off blows that would kill normal men is fighting. Moving and saying "I grapple" is nothing short of what a commoner can do."

Satire aside, I do in large part agree with you. The fighter could have been a lot more interesting than it is for me. But the point stands that a class that's good at hitting things is convenient for people who enjoy hitting things. Someone who wants the simple experience of hitting things shouldn't be forced to either adapt their play style or gimp themselves by ignoring certain class features (or alter their character concept by being a barbarian instead). That would be player-unfriendly design.

This discussion has been blown out of proportion from what the thread is about, so my point in regards to this thread is: If you want to make a more complex and strategically-engaging fighter class, awesome. If the other people you play with like that too, even better. But don't preemptively assume that a straight-forward low-depth class is wrong and stupid and no one should play one because you don't like it. I probably wouldn't play a Champion even with Cogsworther's changes, but I defend his design anyways because what I want to play doesn't matter. This thread is about what he wants to play.

[Composer99]

I like giving fighters more and fiddler options as much as the next 'brewer. (Well, maybe not that much.) But insofar as we tend to give them short shrift, it's because we tend to gloss over how abstracted D&D combat really is.

I mean, really, how many people - who are trained, professional combatants - are actually just standing still in a (small-scale) fight for 6 whole seconds until they move 5-30 feet and take a single swing at someone? How many people are idly standing around for 6 whole seconds, waiting until they just lift up their bow and shoot once? No one, that's who. My 6-year old can do better than that already. So can these guys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFiIDl_mt2c) or these guys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5w2Mh6CyXo) or this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKJcxa8x_g) or this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk) or... OK, one hopes the point is made.

Even if you're not doing a whole lot, you're weaving, you're looking for openings, you're trying to avoid giving openings. Every so often, there'll be a jab, a feint, a swing, a block, a parry - and with the right amount of skill and (at least in D&D) luck, you actually land a blow.

So, yeah, sure, the fighter gets attacks, and, among fighters, the Champion gets more critical hits. And that seems boring from a game-mechanical perspective. But there's a lot going on that doesn't get communicated to the player, because of the rigid turn-based structure and its attendant action economy, because the DM's not going to narrate every cut and thrust, and because, translated into real time, the fight is probably over by the time one or two players have even finished their turns.


I like the improved fighting style idea. (Indeed, I've developed improved fighting styles for my own "improved 5e fighter" homebrew, which I daresay I'll put online after I've added on to the combat manoeuvres I've already shared on this forum.)

One thing it does do, as Deleted rightfully notes, is give the fighter an improved version of a feature it already has, rather than forcing it to get a 1st-level feature again.

It also fits the theme of the Champion's niche, which is a simple "I hit it hard" role. (Parenthetically, as much as I don't personally care for it, I can say from first-hand experience it's a valuable and even necessary niche to have for players who want it. For instance, I've a very smart friend who's a family doctor and who I play a very complex WW2 simulation game with, who's chosen this character niche in Pathfinder - although with a barbarian, which is harder to do thanks to rage powers. Why would he? He's a doctor and he plays very complex board games - gotta have something simple to enjoy.)

Improved fighting styles could be available to other characters the way the battlemaster's manoeuvres are: via a feat. Assuming you have to have a normal fighting style to get an improved one, classes that don't get fighting styles inherently would also need to multiclass. But I think that is entirely fair. If you want to be as good as the Champion is at just plain hitting things, maybe you should have spent more time training and practicing on hitting things, and less time learning arcane or divine mumbo-jumbo, or learning how to get around in nature, or ignoring technique in favour of unbridled rage (etc. etc.).