AC 22, or Heavy Armor Mastery?

[Erit]

A campaign I've gotten into has me making a new character, but I'm currently agonizing over the long arc of the build. I'll spare the gritty details unless asked, but the short version is that this character has the resource potential to hit 20 in Strength, Dex and Con, so I'm looking at a Barbarian dip as a potential source of increased durability via the unarmored defense. But would the AC 22 be better than having HAM, since I couldn't benefit from the unarmored defense while wearing the necessary armor to benefit from HAM?

Set aside Rage for a moment for these considerations; it's a highly limited resource because this character will only be taking a single level in it, and as such would only be used for the clutchest of plays in all likelihood.

[No brains]

Just off of what you said, I'd say AC 22. You save resources and you make it more likely that you would take 0 damage, even from magical hits.

If you're in an environment where you don't need to worry about stealth, have to take lots of small hits, and have an abundance of chances to get magic armor, HAM may be the better option. A +3 suit of plate will take you up to 23 AC if you can find it and/or Armor of invulnerability would make HAM even more useful.

[Provo]

I'd say the 22 AC is better. Higher AC will better protect against large hits or non-physical damage. Against small hits, HAM is useful, but the results are still comparable. Consider a creature with +4 to hit. It would hit an AC 22 character 40% less than an AC 20 character. HAM would probably reduce a such a hit by about half.

Note: the damage reduction from HAM happens BEFORE the reduction from resistance.

[Citan]

A campaign I've gotten into has me making a new character, but I'm currently agonizing over the long arc of the build. I'll spare the gritty details unless asked, but the short version is that this character has the resource potential to hit 20 in Strength, Dex and Con, so I'm looking at a Barbarian dip as a potential source of increased durability via the unarmored defense. But would the AC 22 be better than having HAM, since I couldn't benefit from the unarmored defense while wearing the necessary armor to benefit from HAM?

Set aside Rage for a moment for these considerations; it's a highly limited resource because this character will only be taking a single level in it, and as such would only be used for the clutchest of plays in all likelihood.
Hi!
My opinion on this is simple:
- AC 22 is the potential you are talking about can be reach by level 8 at most, 4 at best.
- HAM otherwise.

Because I suppose that you can take HAM at level 1 (Variant Human) or 4 (other races), while getting 20 in both DEX and CON would probably happen at level 8 at the earliest, and more probably at level 12 at least (with or without aside STR bumps depending on what class you are).
So you have to think about how much damage you could spare yourself up to that point with HAM (plus no delay in your main class levels) and compare to the potential of avoiding damage for the remaining levels after getting AC 22. :)

[Contrast]

HAM is amazing at level 1 and gets comparatively worse as you level. On the other hand the benefits from barbarian will presumably only bear fruit at somewhat high levels. So I feel like you've left out a key component we need to answer the question - what level would you pick up HAM, what level does the unarmoured defence come online and what level are you now?

Another consideration is magic items - they make HAM worse if the enemy uses them but means you also get to benefit from wearing magic armour (though depending on your party and how liberal the DM is in distributing such items, not competing with other party members for magic armour could also be a good thing).


Set aside Rage for a moment for these considerations; it's a highly limited resource because this character will only be taking a single level in it, and as such would only be used for the clutchest of plays in all likelihood.

A single level is still twice a day. I wouldn't consider raging for two encounters a day to be such a limited resource that it can be completely dismissed.


All that aside, striding into battle shirtless or wearing a fancy waistcoat instead of armour is badass :smallwink:

[Willie the Duck]

We are not going to be able to answer this without more info. What level are you? What do you mean by "this character has the resource potential to hit 20 in Strength, Dex and Con," what are your stats now? If you could potentially hit 20 S/D/C because you could end up a ftr(/rog)20 with 7 ASIs, but right now you have 14/16/16, that's a very different beast than you're already at 20 Dex and 18 Con or something. Likewise, you say 22 AC, so does that mean you are going to be using a shield? Do you have duelist fighting style? Some other way of optimizing attack? Will you be needing your ASIs to accomplish that?

The more we know, the more we can help. :smallsmile:

[Mikal]

HAM is good from levels 1-3, average from levels 4-7, and mediocre the rest of the way at best.

AC 22 is good from Levels 1-20.
So is having +5 Dex and Con mods for saves, Init, etc...

[malachi]

I'd say the 22 AC is better. Higher AC will better protect against large hits or non-physical damage. Against small hits, HAM is useful, but the results are still comparable. Consider a creature with +4 to hit. It would hit an AC 22 character 40% less than an AC 20 character. HAM would probably reduce a such a hit by about half.

Note: the damage reduction from HAM happens BEFORE the reduction from resistance.

I don't think this is a valid method of analysis (looking at comparative percentage reduction). You should be comparing the absolute percentage point reduction in damage from having higher AC (where each point lowers your damage by 5 percentage points).

The equation we need to solve is (Expected damage dealt to AC 22) - (Expected damage dealt to AC 20 HAM). Where this equation is positive, go HAM. Where it is negative, go AC 22. If it's equal, go with either.
(Expected damage dealt to AC 22) = (Base Hit Chance - 0.1) * Damage
(Expected damage dealt to AC 20 HAM) = (Base Hit Chance) * (Damage - 3)

Definition of Terms:
Base Hit Chance is the decimal value of how likely you are to get hit at AC 20 (+10 to hit vs AC 20 needs a 10 to hit, which is a .55 hit chance)
Damage is the average damage per attack vs non-HAM (6d6+8 would deal 29 damage)

So we get the following (each line is a simplification of the previous line)
( (Base Hit Chance - 0.1) * Damage ) - ( (Base Hit Chance) * (Damage - 3) )
(Base Hit Chance)*Damage - 0.1*Damage - (Base Hit Chance)*Damage + (Base Hit Chance)*3
(Base Hit Chance)*3 - 0.1*Damage
(Base Hit Chance)*30 - Damage

To convert the (Base Hit Chance) to (Roll needed on the die), just multiply by 20: (Base Hit Chance)*30 becomes (Roll needed on the die)*1.5

So the final formula is: (Roll needed on the die vs AC 20)*1.5 - Damage

For a creature with +4 to hit, they'd need to deal at least 27 damage per hit to make AC 22 better than HAM.
A creature with +18 to hit would need to deal at least 6 damage per hit to make AC 22 better than HAM.

In general, since damage that monsters deal scales in this game, HAM is worth less than 2 points of AC at the end of the game. (Also, HAM doesn't protect against attack spells and magical weapons, while high AC does)

[Provo]

You made an error in converting base hit chance to roll needed. A high base hit chance means a low roll is needed. A low hit chance means a high roll is needed.

Going to your previous step:
(Base hit)*30 - damage

At +4 to hit, the base hit is 25%. Solving for damage gives us 7.5

So if the damage is greater than 7.5 on average at +4 to hit, the AC boost is better.

[Erit]

We are not going to be able to answer this without more info. What level are you? What do you mean by "this character has the resource potential to hit 20 in Strength, Dex and Con," what are your stats now? If you could potentially hit 20 S/D/C because you could end up a ftr(/rog)20 with 7 ASIs, but right now you have 14/16/16, that's a very different beast than you're already at 20 Dex and 18 Con or something. Likewise, you say 22 AC, so does that mean you are going to be using a shield? Do you have duelist fighting style? Some other way of optimizing attack? Will you be needing your ASIs to accomplish that?

The more we know, the more we can help. :smallsmile:

In no particular order:

The starting level is 4th, and the character currently has 19/15/17. The build's going to be predominantly Fighter, using a melee conversion of Arcane Archer.

The DM's houserules are:
1) Whenever you reach an ASI, you also gain a feat, rather than having to pick one over the other.
2) The "standard" ASIs at 4th/8th/12th/16th/19th are gained at those character levels regardless of multiclassing; bonus milestones like Fighter 6th/14th or Rogue 10th remain attached to their respective class levels.

The character would be going sword-and-board, yes; the DM directed me to a feat that lets the character roll damage as if two-handing their longsword when only using it in one hand, so stacking that with Duelist has me at similar numbers potential as a greataxe (barring crits) if I'm not misunderstanding the math.

Unarmored AC would outclass nonmagical armor by 12th level if I pick it up.

Yes, there is a lot of working outside of the printed rules. No, the DM doesn't seem to mind how silly this could get.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, there is a lot of working outside of the printed rules. No, the DM doesn't seem to mind how silly this could get.

We're not here to judge your campaign, it just changes the calculus.

I would be tempted to pick up HAM for the +1 Str and early level damage reduction, and pick up barbarian at level 12. Or earlier, but the point is you don't need to do one thing your whole career. Start out a heavy armor dude who effectively becomes so powerful he doesn't need to wrap himself in metal, because he's so badass.

[Specter]

You wouldn't be able to rage in heavy armor anyway. AC22.

[Citan]

In no particular order:

The starting level is 4th, and the character currently has 19/15/17. The build's going to be predominantly Fighter, using a melee conversion of Arcane Archer.

The DM's houserules are:
1) Whenever you reach an ASI, you also gain a feat, rather than having to pick one over the other.
2) The "standard" ASIs at 4th/8th/12th/16th/19th are gained at those character levels regardless of multiclassing; bonus milestones like Fighter 6th/14th or Rogue 10th remain attached to their respective class levels.

The character would be going sword-and-board, yes; the DM directed me to a feat that lets the character roll damage as if two-handing their longsword when only using it in one hand, so stacking that with Duelist has me at similar numbers potential as a greataxe (barring crits) if I'm not misunderstanding the math.

Unarmored AC would outclass nonmagical armor by 12th level if I pick it up.

Yes, there is a lot of working outside of the printed rules. No, the DM doesn't seem to mind how silly this could get.
Then take HAM as your "starting feat" would be my suggestion. Two reasons.
1/ Between 4th and 12th level, you are bound to get a thousand hits. So HAM will certainly be useful.
2/ Since you get an extra feat at each ASI, the power gain is stupidly strong enough that you can afford yourself to "waste" a feat by taking one that may become useless later should you finally decide that a Barbarian dip is worth it.

Alternatively, if you want to "maximize" in the long run, drop the whole idea of HAM, take Shield Master as your starting feat instead: with that high a STR score, you are bound to some Shoving fun. Then take that Barbarian dip just after you get Extra Attack from Fighter (or next ASI if you want some other feat early). You are set for an awful lot of efficiency. ;)

[SharkForce]

sounds like a high-powered campaign. i would almost be surprised if you couldn't eventually get your hands on magical heavy armour in this campaign anyways, thus potentially giving you 22 AC with heavy armour regardless.

[Deleted]

Eh, either way if the DM wants to do something to you, it will get done in some way.

A lot of DMs see not hitting as not challenging the player, going with a higher AC may push the DM to subconsciously think you aren't being challenged or whatever else.

AC 22 is also power creep against your allies. If monsters hit you and then miss your allies, something will be up and the players will be like "what the hell".

Go with Heavy Armor Mastery.

[djreynolds]

In no particular order:

The starting level is 4th, and the character currently has 19/15/17. The build's going to be predominantly Fighter, using a melee conversion of Arcane Archer.

The DM's houserules are:
1) Whenever you reach an ASI, you also gain a feat, rather than having to pick one over the other.
2) The "standard" ASIs at 4th/8th/12th/16th/19th are gained at those character levels regardless of multiclassing; bonus milestones like Fighter 6th/14th or Rogue 10th remain attached to their respective class levels.

The character would be going sword-and-board, yes; the DM directed me to a feat that lets the character roll damage as if two-handing their longsword when only using it in one hand, so stacking that with Duelist has me at similar numbers potential as a greataxe (barring crits) if I'm not misunderstanding the math.

Unarmored AC would outclass nonmagical armor by 12th level if I pick it up.

Yes, there is a lot of working outside of the printed rules. No, the DM doesn't seem to mind how silly this could get.

Breastplate and shield would give you an AC of 18, right now. Its good enough.

I would grab the brawny feat from the UA, it gives you double proficiency in athletics, +1 to strength and then snag shield master. Anything large or smaller you will beat and prone.

Then when your dex and con are at a point where the AC is better than AC 18, grab a level of barbarian for unarmored defense.

[Willie the Duck]

1/ Between 4th and 12th level, you are bound to get a thousand hits. So HAM will certainly be useful.
2/ Since you get an extra feat at each ASI, the power gain is stupidly strong enough that you can afford yourself to "waste" a feat by taking one that may become useless later should you finally decide that a Barbarian dip is worth it.

Just the idea that a feat is 'wasted' because it is only useful for the first 12 levels of one's career (even when starting at 4th, so it's 'only' useful for the first 9 of the 17 levels you play at) leaves me cold.

[Joe the Rat]

Just the idea that a feat is 'wasted' because it is only useful for the first 12 levels of one's career (even when starting at 4th, so it's 'only' useful for the first 9 of the 17 levels you play at) leaves me cold.

Hence the quotes on wasted, I wager.
It sounds like HAM will be a better opener (though Shield Master may be even better - but why not both?).

Speaking from the other side of the screen, the admonition regarding comparative AC is a valid concern - you don't want to outstrip your fellow frontliners too much. For my players, the backline is impressively easy to hit compared to the frontliners (AC14-16 vs 19-21/24). If I try to do a direct attack blitz, it's either mass units (which HAM would pay on dividends), or something which can reliably hit those numbers - which normally packs a substantial wallop. If your fellow stand-and-fight melee is comparable, then I'd work that angle. But if you go all in, here's what you'll be dealing with in response.


Big Dudes With Bigger Weapons: Some attack bonuses you just can't avoid.
Spells - Anything with a save will skip the whole "I'm invincible!" thing. Note Shield Master helps on the Dex saves, meaning you only have to worry about Cold, Thunder, Poison, and Psychic... and Petrification and Mind Control. Maybe pop that SuperDex into Wisdom instead?
Grapples and Shoves - This is a selling point for Barbarism - Your massive strength paired with Athletics proficiency should keep you upright, but when your big foes decide knocking you over and sitting on your chest while pounding you in the face is a better solution, being able to get advantage on strength checks isn't a bad option. (Rage on your terms)
Flying and Water-breathing Grapplers - Why simply hold you down when they could hold you under... or carry you off somewhere to enjoy the fall damage?


You know what's fun? Heavy Armor Master and Reckless Attack. Encourage others to attack you instead of your buddies, you still won't be hit often, and each one will be a few points less when it does happen. Incentivize the DM to use more goblins and fewer giants in the challenges, to the benefit of the party.

[Mikal]

One thing to consider... if you go Heavy Armor you're wasting your rage ability as a barb, so you don't want to take Barbarian levels if you go that route.

[Erit]

(though Shield Master may be even better - but why not both?).

Shield Master would be fun, yes. I'll have to see about working it into my picks down the line.


Speaking from the other side of the screen, the admonition regarding comparative AC is a valid concern - you don't want to outstrip your fellow frontliners too much. For my players, the backline is impressively easy to hit compared to the frontliners (AC14-16 vs 19-21/24). If I try to do a direct attack blitz, it's either mass units (which HAM would pay on dividends), or something which can reliably hit those numbers - which normally packs a substantial wallop. If your fellow stand-and-fight melee is comparable, then I'd work that angle. But if you go all in, here's what you'll be dealing with in response.

It's a four-man party with my character as the only frontliner; the others are a Bard, some sort of mage rogue I don't know the specifics of, and a nondescript heal/blessbot. So being "the tank" is rather my job description, and I plan to make good on it with some of the control/area damage abilities the Arcane Archer conversion gives. And since it's a digital campaign with open attack rolls from the DM, him fudging the dice is off the table.



Big Dudes With Bigger Weapons: Some attack bonuses you just can't avoid.
Spells - Anything with a save will skip the whole "I'm invincible!" thing. Note Shield Master helps on the Dex saves, meaning you only have to worry about Cold, Thunder, Poison, and Psychic... and Petrification and Mind Control. Maybe pop that SuperDex into Wisdom instead?
Grapples and Shoves - This is a selling point for Barbarism - Your massive strength paired with Athletics proficiency should keep you upright, but when your big foes decide knocking you over and sitting on your chest while pounding you in the face is a better solution, being able to get advantage on strength checks isn't a bad option. (Rage on your terms)
Flying and Water-breathing Grapplers - Why simply hold you down when they could hold you under... or carry you off somewhere to enjoy the fall damage?


Big dudes can just be hit with crowd control and/or kited to death since I'm not operating alone or in a vacuum, so I'm not terribly worried there. Dex saves I've already made my peace with, and the stats I rolled ended up giving me a 14 Wisdom which should give me a fighting chance. As for grapplers: expertise in Atheletics thanks to Brawny at 6th level, coupled with a hell of a bite attack, leaves me pretty confident that those are not going to be the DM's go-to for shutting me down.


You know what's fun? Heavy Armor Master and Reckless Attack. Encourage others to attack you instead of your buddies, you still won't be hit often, and each one will be a few points less when it does happen. Incentivize the DM to use more goblins and fewer giants in the challenges, to the benefit of the party.

Hm... Reckless Attack does, now that you mention it like that, seem like a very effective taunt. The advantage from it would also work well with counteracting the disadvantage I have in direct sunlight.



Breastplate and shield would give you an AC of 18, right now. Its good enough.

I would grab the brawny feat from the UA, it gives you double proficiency in athletics, +1 to strength and then snag shield master. Anything large or smaller you will beat and prone.

Then when your dex and con are at a point where the AC is better than AC 18, grab a level of barbarian for unarmored defense.

Well, the DM's giving me have a full plate suit right out of the gate, so I'm already sitting pretty at 20. Brawny was most definitely on the menu from the start (love that feat so much) but Shield Master I'd not considered; considering I'll be able to make three attacks per round I don't know if I'll need the bonus action shove, but the other benefits are still tempting.

And on the notion of wasting feats: I'm something of an obsessive, so the thought of taking something now that will be completely meaningless later makes my skin crawl. So if I did end up going HAM I'd drop the Barbarian dip in favor of aught else.

[mephnick]

It's hard to "waste" feats when you're going to be like 10 ASI's ahead of what the game expects, so just go with whatever's most flavorful for you.

I want to be that guy that doesn't judge other DM's but I just can't..

[Mikal]

It's hard to "waste" feats when you're going to be like 10 ASI's ahead of what the game expects, so just go with whatever's most flavorful for you.

I want to be that guy that doesn't judge other DM's but I just can't..

Just can't what? The default rule is to roll for abilities. Point Buy is optional. So technically... they aren't any ASI's "ahead" as the game is set up to allow the gamut of 3-18 for each score at level 1, prior to racial abilities.

[mephnick]

Just can't what? The default rule is to roll for abilities. Point Buy is optional. So technically... they aren't any ASI's "ahead" as the game is set up to allow the gamut of 3-18 for each score at level 1, prior to racial abilities.

My thoughts on rolling for stats aside, he's also giving both Feats AND ASI's at every ASI and allowing them to be gained per character level instead of class level..so yeah..read the thread.

[Mikal]

My thoughts on rolling for stats aside, he's also giving both Feats AND ASI's at every ASI and allowing them to be gained per character level instead of class level..so yeah..read the thread.

That's what I get for just paying attention to the Original Post only... sorry!

Still... yeah. That does give you a little more breathing room...

[Willie the Duck]

And on the notion of wasting feats: I'm something of an obsessive, so the thought of taking something now that will be completely meaningless later makes my skin crawl. So if I did end up going HAM I'd drop the Barbarian dip in favor of aught else.

That is entirely your prerogative. However, this thread is something of a optimization thread. And, despite what it seems like because it means you have a dis-synergetic build combo at higher levels, the decision to exclude this possibility in non-optimization because you are excluding from your option list a potentially powerful combination. Over the course of the 17 levels you are playing this character, this potential build might be more powerful than the options you are allowing yourself, simply because they do not have this dis-synergy.

There are, however, plenty of other feats you could take which give you a +1 str (or you can split an ASI, of course).

[Ovarwa]

Hi,



You know what's fun? Heavy Armor Master and Reckless Attack. Encourage others to attack you instead of your buddies, you still won't be hit often, and each one will be a few points less when it does happen. Incentivize the DM to use more goblins and fewer giants in the challenges, to the benefit of the party.

Once going this route, you know what's even more fun?

Heavy Armor Master and Reckless Attack and Armor of Agathys. If the goblins hit you, they explode. And damage reduction makes the AoA last longer.

Anyway,

Ken

[SharkForce]

if you go far enough into barbarian to get subclass, bear totems can wear heavy armour and keep their damage resistance.

[Erit]

Hi,

Once going this route, you know what's even more fun?

Heavy Armor Master and Reckless Attack and Armor of Agathys. If the goblins hit you, they explode. And damage reduction makes the AoA last longer.

Anyway,

Ken

Another thing disincentivizing the use of weenies against this character is a point-blank AoE granted by my subclass. Swarming me with wimps is just baiting out a two-per-short-rest ability that can pretty handily chunk anything short of four hit dice.

[Citan]

Just the idea that a feat is 'wasted' because it is only useful for the first 12 levels of one's career (even when starting at 4th, so it's 'only' useful for the first 9 of the 17 levels you play at) leaves me cold.


Hence the quotes on wasted, I wager.
It sounds like HAM will be a better opener (though Shield Master may be even better - but why not both?).

Indeed, but it seems it's not evident enough to some people for some reason...:smallconfused:

[djreynolds]

Shield Master would be fun, yes. I'll have to see about working it into my picks down the line.

Well, the DM's giving me have a full plate suit right out of the gate, so I'm already sitting pretty at 20. Brawny was most definitely on the menu from the start (love that feat so much) but Shield Master I'd not considered; considering I'll be able to make three attacks per round I don't know if I'll need the bonus action shove, but the other benefits are still tempting.

And on the notion of wasting feats: I'm something of an obsessive, so the thought of taking something now that will be completely meaningless later makes my skin crawl. So if I did end up going HAM I'd drop the Barbarian dip in favor of aught else.

You shove first with the bonus action from shield master and then swing away with advantage. Increases chances to hit and increases critical hits

If you take brawny and barbarian you rage and this gives you advantage on that shove coupled with your expertise in athletics.... it is almost 100% guarantee to dump someone over

The shove can come whenever you desire. You can attack clown A and kill him. Move to clown B, shove him over and stab

Jason McGrody @J_McGrody

@JeremyECrawford Timing of Shield Master bonus shove. Does "take attack action" mean make 1 or all att rolls 1st? or can shove then attack?


Jeremy Crawford ‎@JeremyECrawford

@J_McGrody As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.

Raging will make up for HAMs loss

You want shield master, brawny, resilient wisdom, lucky, mage slayer.... these feats are golden.

Also to consider at higher levels, since your dex is 15 plus, if you find a magic scimitar or rapier defensive duelist at high levels is a very good pick up since you have no real use for your reaction at the moment other than AoO. Just something to consider at level 16 feat. You have the dex, you just need a magic finesse weapon. Sun Blade is what I snagged out of the treasure pile