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Yllin
2017-10-26, 02:00 AM
How do you design a devil contract? What tricks could a devil apply to take advantage of the players? Assuming said players are desperate enough to try and negotiate. The details of what either side wants are whatever you feel like.

It probably should not be too long, because digging through 100 pages of text is no fun, more like a short puzzle.

Brother Oni
2017-10-26, 08:40 AM
How do you design a devil contract? What tricks could a devil apply to take advantage of the players? Assuming said players are desperate enough to try and negotiate. The details of what either side wants are whatever you feel like.

It probably should not be too long, because digging through 100 pages of text is no fun, more like a short puzzle.

It depends on what both side wants that dictates the exact shenanigans, but things like subjective time keeping (midnight local time versus midnight GMT), specific requirements ("I specified 3000g of 24 karat purity gold - you've brought me 3999g of 18 karat purity gold, therefore the contract is null and void"), ambiguous wording ("The contract says to bring a cat, what type of cat?") and literal interpretation (take a look at how genie wishes can be interpreted) are standard tricks.

Vaarsuvius' deal with the infernal contractors in episode 633 is a good start.

denthor
2017-10-26, 09:40 AM
Devils want souls for power or bargaining chips.


If I help you I would like to have something that does not cost you anything. You can give freely and is not collectable as long as you live.

We had an imp use his teleport ability to collect the soul when the player, NPC died in a vile that imp later used the summon power and gave 4 to 6 souls to the middle manager devil of the plane he worked for.


Red fel is said middle manager on this forum.

Red fel

Red fel

Geddy2112
2017-10-26, 10:14 AM
things like subjective time keeping (midnight local time versus midnight GMT), specific requirements ("I specified 3000g of 24 karat purity gold - you've brought me 3999g of 18 karat purity gold, therefore the contract is null and void"), ambiguous wording ("The contract says to bring a cat, what type of cat?") and literal interpretation (take a look at how genie wishes can be interpreted) are standard tricks.

This-the devil is in the details is an idiom for a reason. Wrap it all up in doublespeak, big words, and legalese.

Segev
2017-10-26, 10:26 AM
Depending on the devil and his long-term prospects, I'd actually make the contracts clear about what they entail. The first few times should be about repeat business. Show customers that there are satisfied customers. Sure, the price is high, even painful, but it wasn't deceptive. The customer got what they wanted and knew what they were paying.

Slip in an ambiguous term or two, but then take something that satisfies it without being nefarious or particularly painful. Build up trust.

If the devil has them over a barrel, he doesn't need to trick them. Just spell out the price, and grin because they can't afford to walk away.

And if you are going to pull "the devil is in the details" style trickery, don't do it with "hah, you don't get what you want." Do it with "the price is higher than you thought." Examples of the bad way to do it are in the opera episode of Futurama, with the first few deals the Robot Devil makes. But an example of the last kind - the brilliant kind - is his deal with Leela. (I won't spoil it here for those who haven't seen it.) He gave her what she asked with no tricks, and actually asked a seemingly high price she was willing to pay. But the trick was that the price was different, without necessarily being higher. Or much higher. Depending on how you read it.



The BEST kind of "devil contract" trick is the one where the devil doesn't get anything the other party didn't expect him to...directly. And the other party gets what they asked for. If the other party is not happy with the outcome, it is not because the devil tricked them. There was no "limited uses" clause, no technical words...it's just what they asked for. They just...didn't think it through, and it didn't bring them the joy they expected it to. Avoid even engaging in Gifts of the Magi, where the price undermines the thing gained.

And the devil doesn't take anything the other party didn't expect. No surprise costs that rely on tricky wording or obscured definitions. Instead, the devil takes exactly what the other party expected him to...and then parleys that into a much greater reward.

denthor
2017-10-26, 12:04 PM
Oh just so you know you can sell your soul in slices or percentage if you please. As little as 1% per time of contract. You only have to 1 day per year in the nether regions. Since it works for both types.

pwykersotz
2017-10-27, 12:16 AM
I feel like you should just search for "Red Fel" and "Asmodeus" in the forum search and read everything you find. I'm not in a position to do it now, but I did have this bookmarked. It's a start.

Compliance Will Be Rewarded - A Guide to Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)

Edit: I had a moment, so I found one of the ones I remember being very fun to read.

DM is going to let me strike a deal with Asmodeus, need ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344968-DM-is-going-to-let-me-strike-a-deal-with-Asmodeus-need-ideas)

Edit 2: Also these three.

How Do You Like Your Devil Contracts: Convoluted, or Dark Side Up? (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330204-How-Do-You-Like-Your-Devil-Contracts-Convoluted-or-Dark-Side-Up)
Help me weasel out of a pact sworn in blood. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?312587-Help-me-weasel-out-of-a-pact-sworn-in-blood)
Asmodeus Campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302709-Asmosdeus-Campaign)


In the classic words of Asmodeus, "Read the fine print."

Before I begin, let me just say that, if I wrote this entire post in evil text, I'd run out of purple. So let's just pretend, hmm?

A good Faustian deal is specially tailored to the situation - to the facts, people, and events involved.

First rule: Play to personality. When trying to corrupt a Paladin, he's going to assume you're lying and concealing. So be straight with him - he's going to doubt you anyway. Make him an offer that's literally too good to refuse. But with someone who thinks he can outsmart you - a Wizard, for example - don't be afraid to feign an oopsie. Layer your contract, and be sure that he can reveal one of the more obvious hidden meanings. He'll be so proud of himself for figuring out the trick that he'll miss all of the other hidden meanings.

Second rule: No surprises. Even if you sneak tricks into your contracts, make them obvious in retrospect. The sort of thing heroes kick themselves over missing. The irony is delicious, but more importantly, the players won't feel completely robbed. So be specific - the more specific, the better. Specific doesn't preclude vague, mind you. A classic example is "When I return, I'll take your hand." This may mean a limb, or it may mean marriage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHL3IPfYThw). Vague language begets suspicion; precise language prevents them from weaseling out.

Third rule: No legalese. As others have suggested, players shouldn't need a law degree to play this game. Tricky and precise wording is good; convoluted clauses involving elaborate language, punctuation, and numerous pseudonyms and redefinitions is just a jerky move.

Fourth rule: Always deliver. When someone signs a contract, they get exactly what they paid for. Sometimes, giving them what they want is so good that the fun isn't even in the fee you extract. A classic example is a Midas Wish - you can demand a very negligible fee for that sort of trick, since the real payoff is the misery they suffer from their own poor thinking.

Fifth rule: Be open to renegotiate. In fact, designing contracts as a slippery slope arrangement is part of the art-form. A good Faustian contract has a decent payoff; a great Faustian's payoff is another Faustian. And never assume you have only one client, either. Consider this. You want the Paladin's soul. But he's untouchable. Instead you sell the Fighter a sword. It's bloodthirsty, now he's bloodthirsty; he's damned. The Cleric is able to figure out where the sword came from - you were careful to make it apparent. The Cleric comes to you demanding a cure. You make him the offer; an orphan's tears. He does something unthinkable, loses favor with his deity and his faith; now he's a goner. Finally, the Paladin realizes what has happened, and confronts you. You make him the Final Offer - him for the other two. Which leads us to...

Sixth rule: Keep your eyes on the prize. Don't just make contracts for fun, fun though they may be. Always have a goal. Every deal you make, every signature and soul you take, should be in pursuit of that goal. Each contract is little more than a piece on the board, to be acquired and lost and exchanged as you move towards the King. A single King is worth an army of Pawns; always go for the King.

Now, in terms of the more mechanical aspects, the best time to make a deal is when the PCs are desperate. That's how Evil thrives; when people are willing to do what's Easy instead of what's Right. A friendly merchant you can trust to be untrustworthy is easy to implement at a moment of desperation.

But even before that, if you like, you can have a merchant on hand with a cursed item, a snake oil salesman in town making offers for needful things, an itinerant clergyman with an unusual penchant for knowing exactly what people want. If your players aren't suspicious of people like this, teach them to be.

As a gameplay aspect, however, be ready to provide them with three outs. Every problem should have at least three solutions. Some possible outs include

Embrace damnation. Become evil and revel in it.
Seize the contract. If your Faustian friend is dumb enough to keep the contracts as the equivalent of bearer bonds (admittedly a convenient way to deal in souls), take the document. Alternatively, buy it for market price or find a way to take it by force or authority.
Make an exchange. Maybe the PC isn't the King your merchant of souls is after. Give the PC a chance to buy himself out of the hole - knowing that doing so is likely an Evil act.
Take over Hell. If you own the place, you own all the contracts. It's not an easy solution - Asmodeus might take issue - but it works.

Or any other idea you can think of. Be creative.

And remember the seventh rule: Some contracts are designed to be loss leaders. Sometimes, you want the PCs to "win" their way out of a contract - not only for fun at the table, but also to make them overconfident.

We love overconfidence.

EDIT: Allow me a few examples.

1. Contract for whatever. The price is as follows: "At some point in the next year, I will come to you. When I do, you will simply sit. That's all. For five minutes, I just want you to sit there. If I don't do this within the next year, you have no further obligations." Sitting seems innocent. Fast-forward nine months. The party is in the House of Nobles, which is now voting on a proposal to raise an army to fight against the invading devil-worshipping hordes from the North. The Speaker announces, "All in favor, please rise." The PC(s) in question feel a tap on the shoulder. "Please remain seated," whispers the deal-maker, "I'm calling in my favor." The vote fails, and the Northerners invade.

2. "See this coin?" The devil takes out a rather distinctive gold coin. "I'm very fond of it. My price is this. If I ever drop it someplace, you must pick it up for me. That's all. If you see it, pick it up." Fast-forward. The party is in an ancient temple of sealed evil. The final seal can only be broken by the touch of a noble warrior. The PCs read the inscriptions, and realize that they're safe; as long as they don't touch the seal, the evil within can never be released. They turn to leave - but one sees a gold coin resting on the seal. A very distinctive gold coin. And he knows what he has to do.

3. "You know," says the deal-maker, "I'm a reasonable fellow. I like to know with whom I'm dealing. So here's my price. Someday, I'm going to ask you for your name. Calm down, I'm not going to steal it or anything. I just want you to remind me, in a loud, clear voice. When I ask you, say your name, loud and clear." Fast-forward. The party has infiltrated some sort of ceremony, where either (a) a sacrifice will be given, or (b) a vessel will be chosen to receive some terrible, corrupting power. The master of ceremonies then intones, "And who is the one who has been chosen for this task?" Suddenly, the PC hears a voice. "I like to know with whom I'm dealing. Why don't you remind me; what's your name?"

Red Fel
2017-10-27, 08:02 PM
Red fel is said middle manager on this forum.

Red fel

Red fel

Yo. That said, I feel like this one covered it:


I feel like you should just search for "Red Fel" and "Asmodeus" in the forum search and read everything you find. I'm not in a position to do it now, but I did have this bookmarked. It's a start.

Short version? What a Devil applies isn't complex legalese, it's a combination of "desperation" and "foolishness." Desperation, in that coming to the PCs with a bargain when they're at their lowest is the best way to get them to agree to your terms. Foolishness, in that a smart Devil could give anybody exactly what they asked for, no tricks and no strings, and still get the better of them, because people ask for what they think they want, not what they actually need. You don't even need to pull Literal Genie tricks. Dealing with a Devil is an inherently corrupting act; when people know that the easy way out is only a phone call away, they won't hesitate as much next time. Or the time after.

Your deals don't need to be sneaky. It's even better if they're completely honest. Give the PCs exactly what they think they want, and watch them doom themselves.

Segev
2017-10-27, 09:10 PM
a smart Devil could give anybody exactly what they asked for, no tricks and no strings, and still get the better of them, because people ask for what they think they want, not what they actually need. You don't even need to pull Literal Genie tricks.I want to emphasize this. A really clever Devil can even warn people in such a way that they gave them the opportunity to see the error of their choice, but the customer wanted it so badly they demanded it anyway.

And always be there to sell them the way out of their problem.

Remember: you didn't trick them. (You didn't. Don't do it.) But you're here to help. Whatever they want. For the right price.

Including a legitimate solution that you know will work out well for the client...that happens to be evil.

Esprit15
2017-10-28, 03:38 AM
One good place to start looking is Ipkesh's deal in Critical Role. (http://criticalrole.wikia.com/wiki/Ipkesh) The deal is straightforward, and the first clause is quite simple: they do something for him, he does something for them. The fun comes from the temptation that is written further into the contract. Maybe someone isn't having their worst day ever right now when they make a deal with a devil. After all, some people have the self control to not make deals with devils with their backs against the wall. But some day, they may need that extra kick. The fate of the world may be at stake, or death might just be too inconvenient right then, and you've already left them with the easy out.

After all, devils are all about temptation. The main deal being finished shouldn't necessarily mean the end of the devil's role in the story.

Brother Oni
2017-10-28, 01:06 PM
I feel like you should just search for "Red Fel" and "Asmodeus" in the forum search and read everything you find. I'm not in a position to do it now, but I did have this bookmarked. It's a start.

Compliance Will Be Rewarded - A Guide to Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)

Edit: I had a moment, so I found one of the ones I remember being very fun to read.

DM is going to let me strike a deal with Asmodeus, need ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344968-DM-is-going-to-let-me-strike-a-deal-with-Asmodeus-need-ideas)

Edit 2: Also these three.

How Do You Like Your Devil Contracts: Convoluted, or Dark Side Up? (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330204-How-Do-You-Like-Your-Devil-Contracts-Convoluted-or-Dark-Side-Up)
Help me weasel out of a pact sworn in blood. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?312587-Help-me-weasel-out-of-a-pact-sworn-in-blood)
Asmodeus Campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302709-Asmosdeus-Campaign)

I enjoyed that read, although if I may make two comments:

1) That is a lot of effort to gain one soul, so it's very much quality over quantity and the epitome of the elegant refined devil. However this is making the assumption that the soul is of high worth and/or the person will be in a advantageous position at a later point - what happens if the person making the deal is neither? Using a legal analogy, there is a time and place for the legal dream team in a high profile celebrity murder case which will take months, but the vast majority of people will only need an ambulance chasing personal injury lawyer that will only take a week or two.

2)Some of the examples are less tempting a person and more like a spy turning someone into an asset (which would make for an interesting campaign with the players being either divine or infernal agents in a celestial cold war, trying to advance their cause to take over the plane in proxy wars). If it's just turning someone to your cause, it's less about tempting and more about straight up conversion - the MICE (Money, Ideology, Conscience, Ego) methodology is good start - in which case the devil might as well be a spy from a hostile country, only with the [Evil] descriptor.

I'm reminded of a scene from the book Good Omens where two elder demons (one a duke of Hell) and a younger modern demon are discussing what they've done to advance the cause of Hell. The elder demons are chipping away slowly at an archbishop and a politician respectively (one estimates that they'll have the soul within a decade), while the younger one tied up the telephone network of London for 4 hours. The elder demons can't understand how that would help, while the young one tried to think of a way to explain how he raised the general miasma of nastiness for millions of souls due to people taking out their frustrations on their secretaries/families/co-workers/random passersby.

To use an modern analogy, I guess it would be like randomly DDOS-ing critical internet network hubs, so people lose connection at random. The salt from all the competitive online gamers alone would keep Hell well stocked for months, let alone all the businesses dependent on modern connectivity, social media users, etc.