Jarawara
2007-08-16, 04:47 PM
Warning, really long post, but the basic question is in the first part, and the rest is just my wishing to blab. I have more questions below, in that 'big ol wall of text', but it's more speculative 'what would you do' rather than the first one, an actual rules question.
Thanks in advance.
*~*~*
Yeah, yeah, this surely is the wrong time to be talking about 3rd edition, seeing that the whole boards are all aflutter over 4E.
But I am just joining the modern age, switching my campaign over to 3rd edition - no, not 3.5 - plain jane 3rd edition. I'm going to keep up with that until I understand the system enough before moving on to 4th, as I suspect it will be similar.
But anyway, I played a session this last week, and I dropped an Ogre on my PC's, but some questions came up in play. I've been trying to not just follow the rules and stats, but instead actually take the time to understand why the stats are written the way they are.
For example, the Ogre has a GreatClub that does 2D6 damage, and that's because it's an oversized weapon (checking the rules on that confirms that the damage dice upgrades to 2D6). Same thing with AC, (I actually like how they define how AC is +5 natural, +3 hides, -1 dex, -1 size, instead of just saying 'AC 16'). But what I don't get is the damage bonus.
Ogres are listed as having 21 strength. That translates to +5 damage bonus. But they are listed as doing 2D6+7 damage with their club.
My question: Where'd the other +2 damage come from? What am I missing?
Thanks in advance.
*~*~*
Now, with that out of the way, I wanted to describe the battle, and ask for people to give me pointers, mechanically, tactically, or roleplaying-ly, on how I could have run it better.
First of all, let me explain that this is a learning game, and I have an agreement with the players that we are deliberately testing out various combat situations, not necessarily balanced, and will simply ret-con our way out of any disaster that comes up. And we had the disaster come up yesterday, though I have to say the PC's performed rather well in face of adversity.
4 1st level PC's, classic party (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard), vs. Big Bad Ogre!
Party had been exploring an old moathouse in the marshlands, came across a couple of doors that had been concealed, and bashed their way through them. Ogre heard the commotion and came to explore. Party got wind of 'something big' on it's way, and thus neither side was surprised.
The room they were in had a stairwell right down the middle of it, so you could go around behind it or either side of it (essentially going full circle around it). There was a sizable patch of Green Slime at the base of the stairway, making a bit of a 'hazard zone' for any trying to pass through there.
The Party's most viable tactic would be to run, screaming like little children, but to do so would require climbing the stairway from the side (to avoid the acidic slime), and the Dwarf would end up being the last in line, have the hardest time climbing, and therefore would likely be Squished to Goo (TM) by the Ogre.
We had finished the previous session with both sides becoming aware of each other, and I had decided to give them a preview of what they were facing by dropping the Ogre miniature on the board, so they knew exactly what kind and depth of crap they were in. This allowed them a week to plan out strategies in how to deal with the Ogre, and I must say, I was most impressed with their ideas and plans, and was really looking forward to this week's session, and seeing just how effective these ideas played out. But when the session came, the 'plans' became 'manipulation of game mechanics', and everything went to hell in a handbasket really quick. So, I'll describe the battle, and their pre-planned strategy, and let the gentle reader tell me what I should have done differently.
*~*
Some of the tactics they had come up with during the week included the following:
Darkwind told Red to hide in the storage room (Red's the Dwarf, thus moving the slowest, and he hadn't yet been seen by the Ogre... yes, that's 'Red', as in 'Red Dwarf'. :smallcool: ). Darkwind and his two sisters would then run towards the base of the stairs, but then continue on around the narrow pathway in front, avoiding the Green Slime patch, and hopefully lure the Ogre right into it. They didn't think the Ogre would fall for that... but neither would the Ogre try to walk right through it either, so it would then be a tactical barrier, and the Ogre would then have to move the full distance back around to the other side. Party then goes through the narrow path past the slime again, lather, rinse, repeat. Sounded like a good strategy, maybe even plunk away with a few arrows, and hope the Ogre didn't respond with rocks.
Likewise, once the Ogre moved back to the other side, Red could come running out of the storage room and be helped up the stairway (there was a small section they could mount the stairs from the side, without walking through the corrosive slime-patch. Once Red was to safety, the others could follow much more dexterously (3 half-elves and a dwarf, the half-elves could probably mount the stairs on the run if they tried).
They also thought of using oil (maybe some found in the little storage room Red was in?) and going by the old adage of "When in Doubt, set something on Fire". That should buy them some time.
But the most impressive of their ideas was some unique ideas coming from the Wizard, and this is what left me a bit unsure on how to rule it. The Wizard, Elspeth, has the spell Unseen Servant, plus 3 cantrips of MageHand. (I allow for spontaneous casting of cantrips; just off hand, I don't know if that's legal, or only my own houseruling. No matter.) Elspeth has this wild idea of using MageHand to pick up a handful of Green Slime and hurling it at the Ogre. We look up the spell, no, no 'hurling', but you could 'spread it' around like fingerpainting. How about a big SPLAT of Green Slime to the Ogre's face? That's got to hurt! We then look at Unseen Servant, which in many ways is an identical spell, but can carry more slime, and continue to operate beyond just 'one function'. However, it specifically states that Unseen Servant "Cannot ever make an attack roll of any kind". Well... it doesn't say that for MageHand... but realistically it seems logical that both should have the same restrictions, yes? I wasn't sure how to rule on that, and I've got an old policy of giving the players idea's a legitimate chance, so my ruling is that Magehand can try to smear slime.
Armed with these ideas, we sit down to the gaming table, and the battle is joined!
*~*
Ok, first snag. We roll initiative. Party is lined up in the following order: Elspeth, Talia, Darkwind, and Red (in the storage room). Initiative order is Darkwind, Ogre, Red, Talia, Elspeth. That means, Darkwind runs first, bumping his way past the others, to rush to freedom. Then the Ogre is upon the two girls, and gets his choice as to which he "Smashes to Goo" (TM). The whole strategy of running to the other side of the Slime-patch falls apart just like that.
First, a mechanics question: Is there something in the initiative rules that would allow for the party to act as a group? Is there something I should have been taking into account here, a rule that I missed?
Second, a tactics/roleplaying question: Should I have, as DM, had the Ogre act confused, pause, maybe roar out a challenge, and basically let the party take their actions first, reacting to them only after the three had moved. Yes, that means purposely letting the party get the better of the Ogre, but hey, it was a *freaking Ogre* vs a 1st level party!
Darkwind modifies his tactic, runs past the Ogre, tossing a flask of oil, then dropping a torch on it. Mechanically, the flask was in his backpack, though he was holding the torch at the time. Maybe he could do all that in one round, maybe not. And yes, I could have had an Attack of Opportunity, but as battle hadn't truly begun yet, I presumed the Ogre was just a bit mystified as to why there are people here, and so simply didn't react in time. Oil goes up in flames, missing the Ogre, but causing some distraction and disorientation.
Ogre then turns, and I actually told the players that the Ogre has a move of 30 feet (six spaces)... I take a dice, roll it in front of the party, it comes up a three. I then count out my first moves 1...2...3... *without actually moving the miniature! That's the delay of action, as the Ogre tried to process what was going on, before finally deciding that yes, this was combat!
Ogre then moves his remaining 3 spaces, going wide around the fire, and in one strike drops Darkwind to negative 5. Damn! 10 foot reach sucks!
Question: Was there some other mechanic in the rules to keep the Ogre "distracted" or otherwise preoccupied, to allow Darkwind to escape? Or how about, could Darkwind had pulled off that tactic while moving faster (he did one movement action, standard move, one movement action to draw oil, toss, drop torch). Is there something else I'm not seeing in the rules that pertains to the situation here?
Further Question: As DM, how would you have handled the situation differently? Should I have dumbed down the Ogre even further, to allow for the party to essentially pull a Harry Potter 'outthink and outmaneuver the big dumb Ogre'? Or should I have played the Ogre to the best of it's rule-mechanics limitations, as the party had already made the mistake of distracting themselves, not checking for intelligent adversaries, and making a bunch of noise in an unknown habitat? (Then again, we are still talking a *freaking Ogre* vs a 1st level party. Should I have given them every break in the book and then some?)
So anyway, the two sisters then go into action with the original plan. Talia fires her bow, gets a crit, scoring 11 damage, and we now have an arrow sticking out of Ogre's forehead. That'll leave a mark! Elspeth prepares her Magehand, scooping up a big ol wad of slime, moving it into position. Ogre comes forward, but the sisters stay on the other side of the slimepatch, hoping to draw it in. Ogre knows of the slime, he was there when the bandits cultivated the slime as a trap to unwary intruders. Elspeth tries to 'Slime' him, but misses. Ogre starts to move around to the other side, back around the stairwell.
Red finds no barrels of latern oil, says to heck with it, and comes out to fire arrows. Quick DMing question: Should I have let him find oil, even though the oil was in the shelf on the stairway, that they not searched for? Do I let his tactic work by DMing fiat, changing the location of the oil on the fly, or do I keep to what was prewritten, and they missed it, too bad for them?
Anyway, Red doesn't want to go toe to toe with Mr Ogre, though I wonder if that was an error. Dwarf vs Ogre, that +4 AC bonus might have been useful. They plunk away, while Elspeth prepares another handful of slime (another casting of MageHand). Talia moves into position near the slime, to hopefully avoid the Ogre whichever way he comes around from behind the stairwell.
Unfortunately, she didn't account for the 10 foot range. Now this is where I have had a complaint with D&D from the beginning of time, and so I ask if there's something in 3rd (or 3.5) edition that would allow her reaction to this...
Ogre is 40 feet away, coming either from the left or the right. Ogre could move 30 feet, then use his 10 foot reach to flatten her. So, if he comes from the right, all she has to do it take her 5 foot step to the left, and if he comes from the left, she takes her five foot step to the right. Either way, she keeps 15 feet from the Ogre, thus avoiding the attack. She hadn't even moved this round. BUT.... according to the mechanics of the rules (unless I'm missing something), Mr. Ogre moves his FULL move, then attacks, and then and only then can Talia take her five foot step. Too late, she'd down to -7 in one swing. Elspeth misses with the next handful of slime, Red hides back into the storage room.
Mechanics question, already asked: Is there something in the rules to allow for Talia to react to the Ogre's move, to let her have her 5 foot step *before* the Ogre complete's his full 30 foot movement *and* his attack?
DMing question: Damn.... I mean... Damn! What should I be doing now, other than preparing to retcon the whole encounter? Oh, Talia's got the only healing, so no more cure lights for them! That's actually a player's mistake, not to have points in Heal skill, to try to stabilize people.
So Elspeth tries Unseen Servant, trying to scoop up a 20lb pile of goo, while Red takes another pot shot, succeeding, and scoring another 5 points of arrow damage on the Ogre. I now have a question brewing on the Ogre's mind: At what point do I leave, fearful for my life?
This of course has no corresponding 'mechanics' question, only a DMing question: If you were DMing the Ogre, and you've had handfuls of Slime move towards you in mid-air (MageHand is invisible, as is Unseen Servant, so the slime is just a pile of green good levitating towards you), *and* you've been hit by a crit, arrow to the head, *and* you're now aware of another enemy you've not seen before, firing from the other room, **and** that next pile of green goo looks large enough to totally soak you down... when do you decide to run, screaming like little children?
More importantly... should I have had Mr. Ogre take the Expeditious Retreat option much earlier, as he was alone against four unknown opponents? Would you have handled it differently? How and why? And remember, while it is a *freaking Ogre* vs a party of 1sties, it's also a test game to try out different tactical situations.
*~*
Anyway, Talia bleed to death, but they did barely save Darkwind in time. Talia then, by the DMing power of RetCon, reappeared alive but unconscious, and the game continued. DM applauded party for surviving a challenge way over their head. Inwardly I wondered if I should have been roleplaying the 'big dumb Ogre' to allow for them to have actually used their original tactics, instead of playing the Ogre 'mechanically', which then mechanically kicked their assets all over the room.
Party then returned to the storage room to rest and recuperate. Hmmm... deciding on a sleep-over in a bandit stronghold, where the enemy is fully aware of you from *three* encounters so far... DMing question time: Should I let them sleep unmolested, then leave for town, or do I send a half-dozen bandits, plus Ogre, armed with the oil the party didn't find from the stairway shelves, and blast them to smithereens?
All in all, a fun game, and we went out to dinner afterwards. Mmmm... Chinese. :smallbiggrin:
Thanks in advance.
*~*~*
Yeah, yeah, this surely is the wrong time to be talking about 3rd edition, seeing that the whole boards are all aflutter over 4E.
But I am just joining the modern age, switching my campaign over to 3rd edition - no, not 3.5 - plain jane 3rd edition. I'm going to keep up with that until I understand the system enough before moving on to 4th, as I suspect it will be similar.
But anyway, I played a session this last week, and I dropped an Ogre on my PC's, but some questions came up in play. I've been trying to not just follow the rules and stats, but instead actually take the time to understand why the stats are written the way they are.
For example, the Ogre has a GreatClub that does 2D6 damage, and that's because it's an oversized weapon (checking the rules on that confirms that the damage dice upgrades to 2D6). Same thing with AC, (I actually like how they define how AC is +5 natural, +3 hides, -1 dex, -1 size, instead of just saying 'AC 16'). But what I don't get is the damage bonus.
Ogres are listed as having 21 strength. That translates to +5 damage bonus. But they are listed as doing 2D6+7 damage with their club.
My question: Where'd the other +2 damage come from? What am I missing?
Thanks in advance.
*~*~*
Now, with that out of the way, I wanted to describe the battle, and ask for people to give me pointers, mechanically, tactically, or roleplaying-ly, on how I could have run it better.
First of all, let me explain that this is a learning game, and I have an agreement with the players that we are deliberately testing out various combat situations, not necessarily balanced, and will simply ret-con our way out of any disaster that comes up. And we had the disaster come up yesterday, though I have to say the PC's performed rather well in face of adversity.
4 1st level PC's, classic party (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard), vs. Big Bad Ogre!
Party had been exploring an old moathouse in the marshlands, came across a couple of doors that had been concealed, and bashed their way through them. Ogre heard the commotion and came to explore. Party got wind of 'something big' on it's way, and thus neither side was surprised.
The room they were in had a stairwell right down the middle of it, so you could go around behind it or either side of it (essentially going full circle around it). There was a sizable patch of Green Slime at the base of the stairway, making a bit of a 'hazard zone' for any trying to pass through there.
The Party's most viable tactic would be to run, screaming like little children, but to do so would require climbing the stairway from the side (to avoid the acidic slime), and the Dwarf would end up being the last in line, have the hardest time climbing, and therefore would likely be Squished to Goo (TM) by the Ogre.
We had finished the previous session with both sides becoming aware of each other, and I had decided to give them a preview of what they were facing by dropping the Ogre miniature on the board, so they knew exactly what kind and depth of crap they were in. This allowed them a week to plan out strategies in how to deal with the Ogre, and I must say, I was most impressed with their ideas and plans, and was really looking forward to this week's session, and seeing just how effective these ideas played out. But when the session came, the 'plans' became 'manipulation of game mechanics', and everything went to hell in a handbasket really quick. So, I'll describe the battle, and their pre-planned strategy, and let the gentle reader tell me what I should have done differently.
*~*
Some of the tactics they had come up with during the week included the following:
Darkwind told Red to hide in the storage room (Red's the Dwarf, thus moving the slowest, and he hadn't yet been seen by the Ogre... yes, that's 'Red', as in 'Red Dwarf'. :smallcool: ). Darkwind and his two sisters would then run towards the base of the stairs, but then continue on around the narrow pathway in front, avoiding the Green Slime patch, and hopefully lure the Ogre right into it. They didn't think the Ogre would fall for that... but neither would the Ogre try to walk right through it either, so it would then be a tactical barrier, and the Ogre would then have to move the full distance back around to the other side. Party then goes through the narrow path past the slime again, lather, rinse, repeat. Sounded like a good strategy, maybe even plunk away with a few arrows, and hope the Ogre didn't respond with rocks.
Likewise, once the Ogre moved back to the other side, Red could come running out of the storage room and be helped up the stairway (there was a small section they could mount the stairs from the side, without walking through the corrosive slime-patch. Once Red was to safety, the others could follow much more dexterously (3 half-elves and a dwarf, the half-elves could probably mount the stairs on the run if they tried).
They also thought of using oil (maybe some found in the little storage room Red was in?) and going by the old adage of "When in Doubt, set something on Fire". That should buy them some time.
But the most impressive of their ideas was some unique ideas coming from the Wizard, and this is what left me a bit unsure on how to rule it. The Wizard, Elspeth, has the spell Unseen Servant, plus 3 cantrips of MageHand. (I allow for spontaneous casting of cantrips; just off hand, I don't know if that's legal, or only my own houseruling. No matter.) Elspeth has this wild idea of using MageHand to pick up a handful of Green Slime and hurling it at the Ogre. We look up the spell, no, no 'hurling', but you could 'spread it' around like fingerpainting. How about a big SPLAT of Green Slime to the Ogre's face? That's got to hurt! We then look at Unseen Servant, which in many ways is an identical spell, but can carry more slime, and continue to operate beyond just 'one function'. However, it specifically states that Unseen Servant "Cannot ever make an attack roll of any kind". Well... it doesn't say that for MageHand... but realistically it seems logical that both should have the same restrictions, yes? I wasn't sure how to rule on that, and I've got an old policy of giving the players idea's a legitimate chance, so my ruling is that Magehand can try to smear slime.
Armed with these ideas, we sit down to the gaming table, and the battle is joined!
*~*
Ok, first snag. We roll initiative. Party is lined up in the following order: Elspeth, Talia, Darkwind, and Red (in the storage room). Initiative order is Darkwind, Ogre, Red, Talia, Elspeth. That means, Darkwind runs first, bumping his way past the others, to rush to freedom. Then the Ogre is upon the two girls, and gets his choice as to which he "Smashes to Goo" (TM). The whole strategy of running to the other side of the Slime-patch falls apart just like that.
First, a mechanics question: Is there something in the initiative rules that would allow for the party to act as a group? Is there something I should have been taking into account here, a rule that I missed?
Second, a tactics/roleplaying question: Should I have, as DM, had the Ogre act confused, pause, maybe roar out a challenge, and basically let the party take their actions first, reacting to them only after the three had moved. Yes, that means purposely letting the party get the better of the Ogre, but hey, it was a *freaking Ogre* vs a 1st level party!
Darkwind modifies his tactic, runs past the Ogre, tossing a flask of oil, then dropping a torch on it. Mechanically, the flask was in his backpack, though he was holding the torch at the time. Maybe he could do all that in one round, maybe not. And yes, I could have had an Attack of Opportunity, but as battle hadn't truly begun yet, I presumed the Ogre was just a bit mystified as to why there are people here, and so simply didn't react in time. Oil goes up in flames, missing the Ogre, but causing some distraction and disorientation.
Ogre then turns, and I actually told the players that the Ogre has a move of 30 feet (six spaces)... I take a dice, roll it in front of the party, it comes up a three. I then count out my first moves 1...2...3... *without actually moving the miniature! That's the delay of action, as the Ogre tried to process what was going on, before finally deciding that yes, this was combat!
Ogre then moves his remaining 3 spaces, going wide around the fire, and in one strike drops Darkwind to negative 5. Damn! 10 foot reach sucks!
Question: Was there some other mechanic in the rules to keep the Ogre "distracted" or otherwise preoccupied, to allow Darkwind to escape? Or how about, could Darkwind had pulled off that tactic while moving faster (he did one movement action, standard move, one movement action to draw oil, toss, drop torch). Is there something else I'm not seeing in the rules that pertains to the situation here?
Further Question: As DM, how would you have handled the situation differently? Should I have dumbed down the Ogre even further, to allow for the party to essentially pull a Harry Potter 'outthink and outmaneuver the big dumb Ogre'? Or should I have played the Ogre to the best of it's rule-mechanics limitations, as the party had already made the mistake of distracting themselves, not checking for intelligent adversaries, and making a bunch of noise in an unknown habitat? (Then again, we are still talking a *freaking Ogre* vs a 1st level party. Should I have given them every break in the book and then some?)
So anyway, the two sisters then go into action with the original plan. Talia fires her bow, gets a crit, scoring 11 damage, and we now have an arrow sticking out of Ogre's forehead. That'll leave a mark! Elspeth prepares her Magehand, scooping up a big ol wad of slime, moving it into position. Ogre comes forward, but the sisters stay on the other side of the slimepatch, hoping to draw it in. Ogre knows of the slime, he was there when the bandits cultivated the slime as a trap to unwary intruders. Elspeth tries to 'Slime' him, but misses. Ogre starts to move around to the other side, back around the stairwell.
Red finds no barrels of latern oil, says to heck with it, and comes out to fire arrows. Quick DMing question: Should I have let him find oil, even though the oil was in the shelf on the stairway, that they not searched for? Do I let his tactic work by DMing fiat, changing the location of the oil on the fly, or do I keep to what was prewritten, and they missed it, too bad for them?
Anyway, Red doesn't want to go toe to toe with Mr Ogre, though I wonder if that was an error. Dwarf vs Ogre, that +4 AC bonus might have been useful. They plunk away, while Elspeth prepares another handful of slime (another casting of MageHand). Talia moves into position near the slime, to hopefully avoid the Ogre whichever way he comes around from behind the stairwell.
Unfortunately, she didn't account for the 10 foot range. Now this is where I have had a complaint with D&D from the beginning of time, and so I ask if there's something in 3rd (or 3.5) edition that would allow her reaction to this...
Ogre is 40 feet away, coming either from the left or the right. Ogre could move 30 feet, then use his 10 foot reach to flatten her. So, if he comes from the right, all she has to do it take her 5 foot step to the left, and if he comes from the left, she takes her five foot step to the right. Either way, she keeps 15 feet from the Ogre, thus avoiding the attack. She hadn't even moved this round. BUT.... according to the mechanics of the rules (unless I'm missing something), Mr. Ogre moves his FULL move, then attacks, and then and only then can Talia take her five foot step. Too late, she'd down to -7 in one swing. Elspeth misses with the next handful of slime, Red hides back into the storage room.
Mechanics question, already asked: Is there something in the rules to allow for Talia to react to the Ogre's move, to let her have her 5 foot step *before* the Ogre complete's his full 30 foot movement *and* his attack?
DMing question: Damn.... I mean... Damn! What should I be doing now, other than preparing to retcon the whole encounter? Oh, Talia's got the only healing, so no more cure lights for them! That's actually a player's mistake, not to have points in Heal skill, to try to stabilize people.
So Elspeth tries Unseen Servant, trying to scoop up a 20lb pile of goo, while Red takes another pot shot, succeeding, and scoring another 5 points of arrow damage on the Ogre. I now have a question brewing on the Ogre's mind: At what point do I leave, fearful for my life?
This of course has no corresponding 'mechanics' question, only a DMing question: If you were DMing the Ogre, and you've had handfuls of Slime move towards you in mid-air (MageHand is invisible, as is Unseen Servant, so the slime is just a pile of green good levitating towards you), *and* you've been hit by a crit, arrow to the head, *and* you're now aware of another enemy you've not seen before, firing from the other room, **and** that next pile of green goo looks large enough to totally soak you down... when do you decide to run, screaming like little children?
More importantly... should I have had Mr. Ogre take the Expeditious Retreat option much earlier, as he was alone against four unknown opponents? Would you have handled it differently? How and why? And remember, while it is a *freaking Ogre* vs a party of 1sties, it's also a test game to try out different tactical situations.
*~*
Anyway, Talia bleed to death, but they did barely save Darkwind in time. Talia then, by the DMing power of RetCon, reappeared alive but unconscious, and the game continued. DM applauded party for surviving a challenge way over their head. Inwardly I wondered if I should have been roleplaying the 'big dumb Ogre' to allow for them to have actually used their original tactics, instead of playing the Ogre 'mechanically', which then mechanically kicked their assets all over the room.
Party then returned to the storage room to rest and recuperate. Hmmm... deciding on a sleep-over in a bandit stronghold, where the enemy is fully aware of you from *three* encounters so far... DMing question time: Should I let them sleep unmolested, then leave for town, or do I send a half-dozen bandits, plus Ogre, armed with the oil the party didn't find from the stairway shelves, and blast them to smithereens?
All in all, a fun game, and we went out to dinner afterwards. Mmmm... Chinese. :smallbiggrin: