Low Level Optimizer

[Moosoculars]

I have been playing D&D pretty much non-stop ever since the red box, but I have only once had a character as high as 14th level and I have never got a character to 20th. Ever.

Playing once a week and levelling up every 4 weeks (which is quite fast advancement really), a year’s real world committed play only gets you to around 13th level and in my experience DM’s change, groups dissolve and life often gets in the way of gaming typically preventing advancement above this tier of play.

I love optimizing builds, I suppose that makes me a bit of a powergamer at heart, but one of the main reasons I do this is so that I can have the best character I can over the few levels I will play. There is no point looking at what will happen at 18th level or picking up that extra ASI at 20th because practically speaking you will never get there.

But you will always play levels 1-9 and if you are lucky get to 10-13 if the campaign really continues for a considerable amount of real life time. If you are going to spend a year of your life getting a character to 12th level then you had better make sure that it is fantastic all the way from 1-12 because you don’t want to waste a year playing a sub optimal character and thinking what you could have done with your character.

I call this practical optimizing. It is a realistic build which after a decent amount of real life time and committed game play you may actually be able to build.

Key points of Practical Optimizing

1) The character should be playable each and every level between 1-12 and should look to add something every level to the build without suffering “dead” levels which in reality are months of real world time where your character is not really improving.
2) Power should be front loaded into a character as much as possible. If you can be more powerful than an “Average” or “Normal” character through levels 1-6 then you should try to be.
3) Combinations of powers for a build need to come on quickly and not rely on high level abilities or high level magic that you are unlikely to pick up (for example Magical secrets from a Valor Bard at 10th level in a combo)
4) Extracting power from multiclass dips is very useful as a lot of classes have powerful abilities at levels 1-3. Multiclassing like this means you have to plan the build at creation so that you can stat your character correctly and not suffer MAD.
5) With level 8 as a realistic max and 12 and an almost best case you are not likely to get many feats. Variant Human becomes even more powerful as feats are rarer. Stats of 20 are not automatic and in fact sometimes it may be that sacrificing the 20 key stat for the quicker and versatile power that a feat provides over an extra +1 to hit/damage is worth it.
6) Characters should be built with an idea of the kind of level that they will hit. If the adventure will run for only a short amount of time then put together builds which can cram in as much power as possible in a shortest amount of time. If the game has a chance to go to levels 10-12 then perhaps a more measured build is called for.

By way of example look at different builds for a grappler. The main aim of the character is to grapple their enemies, push them to the ground and pound them.

Level 2 Build – beginnings of a Barbarogue
STR 16, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 8 – 27 point buy
Variant Human – Tavern Brawler Feat

Lvl 1 Barbarian 15 HP, Con saves, Athletics Prof, Rage (advantage to Grapple) (Grapple Check 5+ Adv)
Lvl 2 Rogue 23HP Expertise Athletics, 1D6 SA (Grapple Check 7+Adv)

AC 18 unarmoured with shield, +5 to hit, 1D8(Rapier)+1D6(SA)+5 damage or unarmed 1D4+5

Level 6 Build – Brute wizard who knew you were going to throw that punch before you did.
STR 16, DEX 13, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 8 – 27 point buy
Variant Human – Tavern Brawler Feat

Lvl 1 Fighter 13HP, Athletics Prof, Con Save, Defensive Style, 2nd wind (Grapple Check +5)
Lvl 2 Rogue 21HP Expertise Athletics, 1D6 SA (Grapple Check +7)
Lvl 3 Wizard 28HP Arcane Recovery, Find Familiar (Grapple Check 7+Adv)
Lvl 4 Wizard (Diviner) 35HP Portent (Grapple Check 7+Adv+Portent)
Lvl 5 Wizard (Diviner) 42HP Enlarge Spell (Grapple Check 9+Adv+Portent+Large)
Lvl 6 Wizard (Diviner) 49HP ASI Warcaster (Grapple Check 9+Adv+Portent+Large)

AC 21 Plate + shield (or best you can do), 26 with Shield spell, +6 to Hit, 1D8(Rapier)+1D6(SA)+1D4 Enlarge + 3 damage or unarmed 2D4+3

Level 12 Build – think WWE wrestler as concept with the slapchat (cutting words) and the chair (as the improvised weapon for Tavern Brawler)
STR 16, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16 – 27 point buy (Don’t need 16 CHA just 13 as magic is mainly used to buff so could improve WIS and DEX).
Variant Human – Tavern Brawler Feat

Lvl 1 Fighter 13HP, Athletics Prof, Con Save, Defensive Style, 2nd wind (Grapple Check +5)
Lvl 2 Fighter 22HP Action Surge (Grapple Check +5 ASurge)
Lvl 3 Fighter Eldritch Knight 31HP Find Familiar Cast lvl 1 (Grapple Check +5, Adv, ASurge)
LvL 4 Fighter 40HP ASI STR+2 Cast Lvl 1 (Grapple Check +6, Adv, ASurge)
Lvl 5 Fighter 49HP Extra Attack Cast lvl 1 (Grapple Check +7, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge)
Lvl 6 Bard 57HP Extra Skill, Bardic Insp, Cast Lvl 2 (Grapple Check +7, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge)
Lvl 7 Bard 65HP Jack All Trades, Song of Rest Cast Lvl 3 (Grapple Check +7, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge)
Lvl 8 Bard Lore 73HP, Expertise Athletics, Cutting Words Cast Lvl 4, Enhance Ability (Grapple Check +10, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge, -1D6 Cutt Words)
Lvl 9 Bard 81HP Warcaster Cast Lvl 5 (Grapple Check +12, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge, -1D6 Cutt Words)
Lvl 10 Fighter 90HP ASI +2Str Cast Lvl 6 (Grapple Check +13, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge, -1D6 Cutt Words)
Lvl 11 Bard 98HP Font of Inspiration, Bardic Dice D8 Cast Lvl 7 (Grapple Check +13, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge, -1D8 Cutt Words)
Lvl 12 Bard 106HP Magical Secrets Enlarge, Cast Lvl 8 (Grapple Check +13, Adv, 2 Att, ASurge, -1D8 Cutt Words, Large)

AC 21 Plate + shield (or best you can do), 26 with Shield spell and better with Cutting words, +9 to Hit, 2D6 great sword +1D4 Enlarge + 5 damage or unarmed 2D4+5

Could swap an ASI for Shield Mastery or Defensive Dualist as your grappling skill throughout is great.


Depending then on how long you think the game will last and the rate of advancement each of these characters tries to cram in as much grappling power as possible into a few short levels. The fewer the levels the more focused the build. The more levels you have the greater the utility.


One of the Best characters that I think provides real power from levels 1-10 at every stage is the Ranger/Rogue/Fighter “True” Assassin. A very skilful character build, deadly in combat and even more so from surprise. One of the Emerald Enclave he is a bit of a wilderness champion and skilled in medicine and herbs.

Wilderness Warrior – Focused on eradicating those who disturb nature and guiding those who need it.
STR 8, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8 – 27 point buy
Variant Human – Crossbow Master
6 Skills (Acrobatics, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, Survival) Herbalism Kit Sylvan, Feature Wanderer.
Lvl 1 Ranger Favored Enemy (Undead), Natural Explorer (Woods) AC Leather/Dex 14, Hit +5 1D6+3, 2 attacks
Lvl 2 Ranger Archery Style, Hunters Mark, Goodberry AC Studded/Dex 15, Hit +7 2D6+3, 2 Attacks
Lvl 3 Ranger Primeval Awareness, Fog Cloud, Colossus Slayer, AC Studded/Dex 15, Hit +7 2D6+1D8+3, 2 Attacks
Lvl 4 Ranger ASI +2 Dex AC Studded/Dex 16, Hit +8 2D6+4 (+1D8), 2 Attacks
Lvl 5 Ranger Extra Attack, Pass without Trace, Darkvision (-Fog Cloud) AC Studded/Dex 16, Hit +9 2D6+4 (+1D8), 3 Attacks
Lvl 6 Rogue +1D6 SA, Expertise (Stealth, Perception) Extra Skill (Insight), Thieves Tools, AC Studded/Dex 16, Hit +9, 2D6+4 (+1D8+1D6) , 3 Attacks
Lvl 7 Rogue Cunning Action AC Studded/Dex 16, Hit +9, 2D6+4 (+1D8+1D6) , 3 Attacks
Lvl 8 Rogue Assassinate, 2D6SA, Disguise Kit, Poisoners Kit, AC Studded/Dex 16, Hit +9, 2D6+4 (+1D8+2D6) , 3 Attacks (Assassinate between 30-124 damage if all 3 attacks hit)
Lvl 9 Fighter Second Wind, Defensive Style, AC Studded/Dex 17, Hit +10, 2D6+4 (+1D8+2D6) , 3 Attacks (Assassinate between 30-124 damage if all 3 attacks hit)
Lvl 10 Fighter Action Surge, AC Studded/Dex 17, Hit +10, 2D6+4 (+1D8+2D6) , 3/5 Attacks (Assassinate between 46-180 damage if all 5 attacks hit)
Lvl 11 Fighter (Battlemaster) Artisan Tool, 4 D8 Superiority Dice, (Menacing Trip Precision maneuvers) AC Studded/Dex 17, Hit +10, 2D6+4 (+5D8+2D6) , 3/5 Attacks (Assassinate between 54-244 damage if all 5 attacks hit)
Lvl 12 Rogue ASI +2Dex AC Studded/Dex 18, Hit +11, 2D6+5 (+5D8+2D6) , 3/5 Attacks (Assassinate between 59-249 damage if all 5 attacks hit)
Lvl 13 Fighter ASI Sharpshooter Studded/Dex 18, Hit +13/+7, 2D6+15 (+5D8+2D6) , 3/5 Attacks (Assassinate between 104-299 damage if all 5 attacks hit)


So what is your best Low-Mid Level character build?? I would be interested to know.

[Specter]

Fighter (BM/Champion)/Rogue (Swashbuckler) is really the answer at lower levels. Start Fighter for CON save, then a rogue level for Expertise, and then you can pretty much split it in any way you want it. By level 5, at FGT5/ROG5, you can be a much better tank than a regular fighter with Uncanny Dodge, and deal damage on par with a 10th level rogue due to Extra Attack.

[bid]

Level 2 Build – beginnings of a Barbarogue
STR 16, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 8 – 27 point buy
Variant Human – Tavern Brawler Feat

Lvl 1 Barbarian 15 HP, Con saves, Athletics Prof, Rage (advantage to Grapple) (Grapple Check 5+ Adv)
Lvl 2 Rogue 23HP Expertise Athletics, 1D6 SA (Grapple Check 7+Adv)

AC 18 unarmoured with shield, +5 to hit, 1D8(Rapier)+1D6(SA)+5 damage or unarmed 1D4+5
As opposed to 16 14 16 8 12 10 with AC18 in a chain shirt, which won't go hide in the cleric's robe as soon as someone scares him.
And it's only +3 damage btw.

Barbarian unarmored defense is a trap. Except for cases such as 14 20 16 level 8 stout halfling that can TWF with naked AC18, and even then it's no better than a +1 studded.

Str rogue is a thing and it works great.


Sometimes going too far into "optimization" does the opposite. My main beef is starting 17 in a stat without thinking you'll still need 2 ASI to reach 20.

[PeteNutButter]

You touch on some of the ideas I lay out in my general optimization guide, in my signature.

Seems like you've got the right idea of it.

I find PAM to be an extreme power boost on str martials, especially pre level 5, potentially giving triple the amount of attacks per round normally had before level 5. Most of my characters have at least 1 level in a seperate class by level 6. There are just too many goodies to be had in those early levels of a class.

[Finieous]

Fighter/Rogue is really the answer at lower levels. Start Fighter for CON save, then a rogue level for Expertise, and then you can pretty much split it in any way you want it. By level 5, at FGT5/ROG5, you can be a much better tank than a regular fighter with Uncanny Dodge, and deal damage on par with a 10th level rogue due to Extra Attack.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I mean, character level 10 is an interesting cutoff because it comes right before the single-classed fighter's second Extra Attack. But you have to get there, and you don't have Uncanny Dodge for levels 1-9 (assuming you start fighter and get to Extra Attack). You can use heavy armor if you don't care about stealth, but you can't dump Dex (probably), which means your Con is lower. You lose out on an ASI along the way, and you probably get your second ASI after the single-classed fighter has gotten his third.

So, I don't know...

10th Level Variant Human Eldritch Knight
- Heavy Armor Master
- Sentinel
- War Caster
- Resilient Wisdom (or +2 Con)
* AC 20 (25 with shield) or 21/26 if you go Defense
* 94 (or 104) hit points
* Second wind for +46.5 hit points per day (with two short rests)
* War Magic and booming blade for stickiness
* Shield, absorb elements, protection from evil and good, mirror image

I'm confident you can make a Fighter 5/Rogue 5 that deals more damage and has more utility out of combat, but I don't think you're going to get one that's a "better tank." I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have been a "better tank" on the way to 10.

All of which is to say, IMO, for low to mid-level and as a rule of thumb, a single-classed character is going to be more optimal at each level if you focus on a specific role. Dipping will get you more versatility. Any power advantage, again IMO, generally comes in Tiers 3 and 4.

[Klorox]

Vhuman vengeance paladin

STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 16 (alternately drop CHA to 13 if you won't reach level 6)

Choose great weapon mastery feat.

While rolling with advantage, you do 2d6 +13 damage if you hit (+2 proficiency, +3 STR, -5 feat = straight roll). You get a bonus action attack if you kill a foe, which you will be doing a lot of at low levels.

You can choose the great weapon fighter fighting style to eek out a little more damage, but unless your DM allows you to reroll smite damage, you'll probably get more mileage out of the defense fighting style.

[zazq]

My group has experienced this problem as well and have a complicated house rule for it. The rule allows you to bend builds around a bit to be more optimal each level without screwing you in the long run.

When you level you can put that level anywhere in order, so if you are wizard rogue, you can have your most recently taken level to be wizard for better spell selection. With foreshadowing you can retrain a level each level, so the level 3 fighter starts acting like a ranger and sessions later when he levels can become a fighter 2 ranger 2. Each level you can move a stat point buy point to a different stat, slowly morphing your strength into dex if you need it.

It's actually written in legalese but we haven't had any trouble with it. It means you don't have to suck now to be good later.

[Specter]

I don't think that's necessarily true. I mean, character level 10 is an interesting cutoff because it comes right before the single-classed fighter's second Extra Attack. But you have to get there, and you don't have Uncanny Dodge for levels 1-9 (assuming you start fighter and get to Extra Attack). You can use heavy armor if you don't care about stealth, but you can't dump Dex (probably), which means your Con is lower. You lose out on an ASI along the way, and you probably get your second ASI after the single-classed fighter has gotten his third.

So, I don't know...

10th Level Variant Human Eldritch Knight
- Heavy Armor Master
- Sentinel
- War Caster
- Resilient Wisdom (or +2 Con)
* AC 20 (25 with shield) or 21/26 if you go Defense
* 94 (or 104) hit points
* Second wind for +46.5 hit points per day (with two short rests)
* War Magic and booming blade for stickiness
* Shield, absorb elements, protection from evil and good, mirror image

I'm confident you can make a Fighter 5/Rogue 5 that deals more damage and has more utility out of combat, but I don't think you're going to get one that's a "better tank." I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have been a "better tank" on the way to 10.

All of which is to say, IMO, for low to mid-level and as a rule of thumb, a single-classed character is going to be more optimal at each level if you focus on a specific role. Dipping will get you more versatility. Any power advantage, again IMO, generally comes in Tiers 3 and 4.

You can be a better tank than a fighter as soon as you get Cunning Action and Sentinel (level 3). Tanking isn't just about taking damage (though it can be used in that sense), but about directing enemies towards you. Rogue benefits:

- With Dash as a bonus action, you can get close to the ones you want to stick to much faster. Even teleporting enemies can't get too far from you unless high-level spells such as Dimension Door are involved.
- If you and another melee friend are on the same foe, he would be crazy not to attack you, as your opportunity attack is much more painful than a regular Fighter's because of Sneak Attack.

The sad part is having less AC with studded leather (19 by level 8) and a bit less HP, but all in all it's worth it.

[Finieous]

You can be a better tank than a fighter as soon as you get Cunning Action and Sentinel (level 3). Tanking isn't just about taking damage (though it can be used in that sense), but about directing enemies towards you. Rogue benefits:

- With Dash as a bonus action, you can get close to the ones you want to stick to much faster. Even teleporting enemies can't get too far from you unless high-level spells such as Dimension Door are involved.
- If you and another melee friend are on the same foe, he would be crazy not to attack you, as your opportunity attack is much more painful than a regular Fighter's because of Sneak Attack.

The sad part is having less AC with studded leather (19 by level 8) and a bit less HP, but all in all it's worth it.

I guess I don't know what your build is. Are we talking about level 3? Post it up and I'll compare.

[Specter]

I guess I don't know what your build is. Are we talking about level 3? Post it up and I'll compare.

A sample one, with optionals noted:

1: Fighter 1 (Dueling, Sentinel)
2: Rogue 1 (Exp. Acrobatics and Stealth)
3: Rogue 2
4: Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler)
5: Fighter 2
6: Fighter 3 (Battlemaster - Trip, Riposte, Precision)
7: Rogue 4 (DEX+2)
8: Fighter 4 (DEX+2)
9: Fighter 5
10: Rogue 5

[Innocent_bystan]

I guess I don't know what your build is. Are we talking about level 3? Post it up and I'll compare.

I don't know about Specter's build, but I have played a STR-based Variant Human Battle Master 5 / Arcane Trickster 7 with Sentinel and Shield Mastery and it kicked asses (as in donkeys) by the dozens. Not really low level, though.

Highlights:
Sentinel and Riposte: Almost guaranteed reaction attack
Evasion and Shield Master's bonus to Dex saves
Expertise (Athletics), Shield Master's Prone and 4d6 Sneak attack.
Shove, Mage Hand, Dash, Disengage and Hide as a bonus action
Shield Spell, Opportunity attack, Riposte, Sentinel Reaction attack and Uncanny Dodge as a reaction
2nd level spells (including Shield and Blur)
21 AC (Plate + Shield + Defense Fighting style) and Shield, Blur

This is a higher level build, but it can work starting at Fighter 3 / Rogue 3, with either Sentinel or Shield Mastery as the variant Human feat. And the other at character level 7. You could also pick up Warcaster to combine with Booming Blade, but then your stats would really suffer. (And in that build I'd stop at Fighter 3 or 4, as extra attack becomes even less appealing)

[Finieous]

A sample one, with optionals noted:

1: Fighter 1 (Dueling, Sentinel)
2: Rogue 1 (Exp. Acrobatics and Stealth)
3: Rogue 2
4: Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler)
5: Fighter 2
6: Fighter 3 (Battlemaster - Trip, Riposte, Precision)
7: Rogue 4 (DEX+2)
8: Fighter 4 (DEX+2)
9: Fighter 5
10: Rogue 5

Okay, thanks. At which level(s) do you think you're a "better tank" than a single-classed fighter?

I suppose it's best to get in early -- you mentioned level 3 -- before you fall behind on Extra Attack, bonus ASI, etc. So let's look at level 3.

My 3rd-level Eldritch Knight:
* Str 16, Con 16
* 31 hit points
* Second Wind for +25.5 hp/day
* AC 19 (splint, shield)
* Sentinel
* Booming blade, fire bolt, absorb elements, shield, expeditious retreat

Show me how your Fighter 1/Rogue 2 is a better tank.


I don't know about Specter's build, but I have played a STR-based Variant Human Battle Master 5 / Arcane Trickster 7 with Sentinel and Shield Mastery and it kicked asses (as in donkeys) by the dozens. Not really low level, though.


Yeah, fighter/rogue is a terrific multiclass (my favorite, actually). No argument.

[Specter]

Okay, thanks. At which level(s) do you think you're a "better tank" than a single-classed fighter?

I suppose it's best to get in early -- you mentioned level 3 -- before you fall behind on Extra Attack, bonus ASI, etc. So let's look at level 3.

My 3rd-level Eldritch Knight:
* Str 16, Con 16
* 31 hit points
* Second Wind for +25.5 hp/day
* AC 19 (splint, shield)
* Sentinel
* Booming blade, fire bolt, absorb elements, shield, expeditious retreat

Show me how your Fighter 1/Rogue 2 is a better tank.

Level 3 is very specific, but okay.

Cunning Action lets you overcome the 30ft speed, so you can get in action much sooner. Sneak Attack makes the single attack more hurtful, which gives enemies more incentive to target you and not someone else. Opportunity attacks are also gravier. Expertise in Acrobatics means resisting grapples more easily.

HP accounts for -2, which is nigh irrelevant. Same with Second Wind.

EK is a better tank in the 'sponge' sense, absorbing attacks without caring too much. But with such a high AC and average damage potential, enemies will do their best to try to target other people, and will usually succeed.

[Finieous]

Level 3 is very specific, but okay.


I thought you mentioned level 3! Pick any level you like. Ideally, we could even evaluate it level by level from 1-10.



Cunning Action lets you overcome the 30ft speed, so you can get in action much sooner.


So does expeditious retreat! I can't use it very often, but it lasts for ten minutes and provides good mobility for these scenarios.



Sneak Attack makes the single attack more hurtful, which gives enemies more incentive to target you and not someone else. Opportunity attacks are also gravier. Expertise in Acrobatics means resisting grapples more easily.


Yeah, sneak attack will get you (3.5*hit chance). Not much gravy. I'd rather my tank be good at grappling and escaping grapples than great at just escaping them...



HP accounts for -2, which is nigh irrelevant. Same with Second Wind.


25.5 hit points per day is "nigh irrelevant" for a 3rd-level tank?



EK is a better tank in the 'sponge' sense, absorbing attacks without caring too much. But with such a high AC and average damage potential, enemies will do their best to try to target other people, and will usually succeed.

The way I see it, your guy is going to do about two more points of at-will single-target damage at 3rd level (unless you're not using a shield, in which case you're "tanking" with AC 15?). I granted that at the outset, but surely that two points of damage is not what you meant by "a better tank." OTOH, my guy has booming blade, which means he's either going to be sticky or he's going to offset that damage advantage. So maybe we both have "average damage potential." We're 3rd-level tanks, after all!

I don't really see anything that makes your fighter 1/rogue 2 a better tank, unless, if I follow you, it's your lower AC. Tell you what, I'll go greatsword and defense to downgrade my AC to 18, maintain my damage output, and make spellcasting easier if the DM is picky. I could drop it all the way to your level (AC 17, again, assuming you're using a shield), but I don't think GWF is worth it. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe we should look at other levels -- 5th, 6th, 7th? That's right in the sweet spot.

[Specter]

I thought you mentioned level 3! Pick any level you like. Ideally, we could even evaluate it level by level from 1-10.

So does expeditious retreat! I can't use it very often, but it lasts for ten minutes and provides good mobility for these scenarios.

Yeah, sneak attack will get you (3.5*hit chance). Not much gravy. I'd rather my tank be good at grappling and escaping grapples than great at just escaping them...

25.5 hit points per day is "nigh irrelevant" for a 3rd-level tank?

The way I see it, your guy is going to do about two more points of at-will single-target damage at 3rd level (unless you're not using a shield, in which case you're "tanking" with AC 15?). I granted that at the outset, but surely that two points of damage is not what you meant by "a better tank." OTOH, my guy has booming blade, which means he's either going to be sticky or he's going to offset that damage advantage. So maybe we both have "average damage potential." We're 3rd-level tanks, after all!

I don't really see anything that makes your fighter 1/rogue 2 a better tank, unless, if I follow you, it's your lower AC. Tell you what, I'll go greatsword and defense to downgrade my AC to 18, maintain my damage output, and make spellcasting easier if the DM is picky. I could drop it all the way to your level (AC 17, again, assuming you're using a shield), but I don't think GWF is worth it. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe we should look at other levels -- 5th, 6th, 7th? That's right in the sweet spot.

1) You can't use Expeditious Retreat with a shield.
2) I mention Second Wind as nigh irrelevant because my build would also have it. Two points lower, sure, but whatever.
3) At level 3, 3.5 damage is the difference between killing and not killing. The main thing about this damage is that it will also apply to opportunity attacks, unlike Booming Blade.
4) Now that you've mentioned it, I realize Arcane Trickster is better for this build, if only to get Booming Blade too.
5) AC is a double-edged sword for tanking; you want a good number, but not too much. The second your opponents realize they have less than 50% chance of hitting you, they're moving on to someone else, unless they're unintelligent beasts. This is why I say that EK is a great sponge, but not an awesome tank.

As for other levels, we can keep going, but I believe my point is solid; the Rogue way, even with less hit points, keeps you in the front lines at least as well as full fighter. Not that fighter is a bad tank, on the contrary; but at low levels, Fgt/Rog is the best of both worlds as I see it.

[Moosoculars]

And it's only +3 damage btw.


I just added on the +2 for Rage.

[Moosoculars]

You touch on some of the ideas I lay out in my general optimization guide, in my signature.

Seems like you've got the right idea of it.

I find PAM to be an extreme power boost on str martials, especially pre level 5, potentially giving triple the amount of attacks per round normally had before level 5. Most of my characters have at least 1 level in a seperate class by level 6. There are just too many goodies to be had in those early levels of a class.

Many thanks. I hadn't seen your guide before and I can see that it is in the Guide Sticky and I have just been missing it all this time!!!. I love multiclassing and spend a lot of time building each character.

I agree with PAM. Played a Tempest Cleric with PAM and he was more deadly than the fighters especially with Wrath of the storm on Shatter or Thunderwave when they mobbed him.

[Moosoculars]

My group has experienced this problem as well and have a complicated house rule for it. The rule allows you to bend builds around a bit to be more optimal each level without screwing you in the long run.

When you level you can put that level anywhere in order, so if you are wizard rogue, you can have your most recently taken level to be wizard for better spell selection. With foreshadowing you can retrain a level each level, so the level 3 fighter starts acting like a ranger and sessions later when he levels can become a fighter 2 ranger 2. Each level you can move a stat point buy point to a different stat, slowly morphing your strength into dex if you need it.

It's actually written in legalese but we haven't had any trouble with it. It means you don't have to suck now to be good later.

I deal with it slightly differently. I allow re-training in the game I DM. So a character has to spend downtime days re-training class features, spell choices. I don't let them chance levels in character class though just choices within class. It costs the characters Gold and time. Also they are not allowed to abuse it by retraining a favored enemy to Dragon because they know that they are going to hunt a dragon. It is just use to tweak things which don't feel right to the character's play.

[bid]

I just added on the +2 for Rage.
Oh, missed that sorry.

[Finieous]

1) You can't use Expeditious Retreat with a shield.


Yeah, like I said, I'll go greatweapon in case of picky DMs.



2) I mention Second Wind as nigh irrelevant because my build would also have it. Two points lower, sure, but whatever.


Oh sure, fair enough.



3) At level 3, 3.5 damage is the difference between killing and not killing. The main thing about this damage is that it will also apply to opportunity attacks, unlike Booming Blade.


I mean, I'll do 10*hit chance and you'll do 13*hit chance. So, assuming hit chance is 65%, you'll do about two more points of damage. I granted this at the outset. That's, of course, when you have sneak attack. You made a big point of Cunning Action, so hopefully you won't be outrunning your slower allies too often in order to fill your tanking role. When you don't have sneak attack, you'll do less damage. It's a situational and marginal advantage, and it certainly isn't enough to make the fighter/rogue a better tank.



4) Now that you've mentioned it, I realize Arcane Trickster is better for this build, if only to get Booming Blade too.


Now you're talking! Of course, you don't have a subclass yet, so you don't have booming blade. You could go Magic Initiate, but then you don't have Sentinel. You're also really going to need an owl if you go AT instead of Swashbuckler, otherwise outrunning your allies with the Cunning Action you emphasized is going to be a bigger problem. I'll be interested to see which way you go.



5) AC is a double-edged sword for tanking; you want a good number, but not too much. The second your opponents realize they have less than 50% chance of hitting you, they're moving on to someone else, unless they're unintelligent beasts. This is why I say that EK is a great sponge, but not an awesome tank.


Yeah, I don't agree with that at all. I'll grant that a lot of it depends on the DM, but my DMs don't calculate their hit chance and then "move on" when they discover it's below 50%. For my DMs, effective tanking is more about maneuver and positioning, primarily, and stickiness secondarily. Good damage is helpful for stickiness -- so is Sentinel and booming blade. If they ignore me anyway, maybe I punish them with an Action Surge, which you don't have, and we'll see how the DM plays it.



As for other levels, we can keep going, but I believe my point is solid; the Rogue way, even with less hit points, keeps you in the front lines at least as well as full fighter. Not that fighter is a bad tank, on the contrary; but at low levels, Fgt/Rog is the best of both worlds as I see it.

Now you seem to have softened your argument a bit, at least in the first sentence. I agree that a fighter/rogue can be very effective in a frontline role. I just don't think he's going to be "a better tank" than a single-classed fighter at any level.

Let's go ahead and look at 6th level. Maybe you'll go 3/3 so you get both your subclasses? Or you could get to Rogue 5. I'll get:

* Great Weapon Master and Str 18 (you're making me feel inadequate about my damage output!)
* Extra Attack
* Protection from Evil and Good
* +27 hit points
* +9 more hit points per day from Second Wind
* I can probably afford plate armor at 6th level, so against your advice, I'll go ahead and bump to AC 19
* No booming blade at 5th and 6th, so my cantrip improvement isn't relevant (I'll use it again when I get War Magic at 7)

To summarize, my 6th-level EK has:

* Str 18, Con 16
* 58 hit points
* Second Wind for +34.5 hp/day
* AC 19 (plate, Defense/24 with shield)
* Sentinel
* Great Weapon Master
* Action Surge 3/day
* Extra Attack
* Booming blade, fire bolt, absorb elements, shield, expeditious retreat, protection from good and evil

I'm feeling pretty good about my tankiness, whether the criteria are mobility, control, damage, AC, damage mitigation (including energy AoEs), undead/fiend defense, etc.

[8wGremlin]

One simple good build is the Standard Arcana Cleric (SAC), vHuman build (phb+scag)

The arcana cleric takes the spells chill touch and booming blade, both of these are now Cleric Cantrips, and use Wisdom.

Your vHuman feat is Magic initiate: druid, this allows you to pick up thornwhip, shillelagh and either absorb elements, or longstrider - I prefer absorb elements.

You max your wisdom, point by this would be 16, you also get your dex to 14, you can dump strength, int, and cha if you like.

All attacks and riders key off wisdom, melee attack uses a shillelagh, and is a magic weapon doing 1d8 + 3 (wis mod)

With breastplate + shield + dex you're AC is 18.

At 4th take warcaster, this allows you to cast Booming blade as your OA!
At 8th up wisdom, now all cleric cantrips can add your wis mod to damage!
And you take Mobility, so you can move forward, booming blade and then move back.

You are also a full cleric: Spiritual Guardians, spiritual weapon, guidance, bless etc.
You can remove spells on people you cast healing on due to the Arcane domain.

[8wGremlin]

The other one I like playing at the moment is this -

it was designed to be a non damaging character, one that helped the team, they would and could melee, and I did change my original design to be slightly more combat effective. (see last section)


Drow


No need to sleep, meditate instead of long rests, you get 4 short rests, for every long rest that you meditate in. (see coffeelock)
Convert all unused warlock spell slots to Sorcery points, and then to convert them to Sorcery Spell slots
Use them to create Healing elixirs (UA starter spells)



Tactics


Twin cast Warding bond on two targets and half damage goes to them, and to you
Use Cure light wounds (which is maxed due to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones) on your self to keep you up
You can twin other spells (see spell section, spells marked with t can be twinned)
You have a number of defence spells, "If you seek to harm me or my friends come no closer or you will be harmed", (Spirit Guardians)
"Hurt me and you will be harmed", (Armour of Agathys")
You have inspiring leader feat to add extra temp hp to your other party members
You also have Fiendish Vigor to give yourself more temp hp, as well as armour of agathys
Note that you should be casting most of these through your sorcerer slots
You can give all your party members familiars with the ceremony + find familiar combo



## Levels ##


Sorcerer 1st level - Favoured Soul
Warlock 1st level - Hexblade (gain medium armour, curse)
Warlock 2nd level -
Warlock 3nd level - Chainlock (pick the imp, or the flying monkey from TOA)
Sorcerer 2nd level -
Sorcerer 3rd level -
Sorcerer 4th level - feat - Inspired Leader
Sorcerer 5th level -


## Familiar ##
Used to deliver touch spells, or administer healing elixirs to other players.


## Metamagic: ##
Twin(spell level pts)
Your choice - quicken could be useful.


## Spells ##
### Cantrips: ##
W: Create bonfire
W: Minor Illusion
S: Guidance
S: Spare the dying
S: Prestidigitation
S: Mending
S: Control Flames

nb: control flames can use create bonfire as a starting base!


### Spells known: ###
#### Sorcerer: (6) ####
Cure light wounds (1, t, free spell), Shield of Faith (1, t), Ceremony (1,t), Warding bond (2, t), Hold Person (2, t), Haste (3, t), Sacred Guardian (3) - Healing elixirs (1, take this in stead of shield of faith)
Find familiar (1, free, ritual)


#### Warlock: (4) ####
Shield (w1), Protection from Evil and Good (w1, t), Armour of Agathys (w1), Mirror Image (w2)


### Spells slots ###
#### Sorcerer ####
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 2


#### Warlock ####
Known: 2 cantrips, 4 spells


2/short rest: 2nd level.


### Invocation: (2) ####
Fiendish Vigor, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (switched at 3rd)


# Combat version #


Remove Create Bonfire - take Eldritch Blast
Remove Mirror Image - take Hex
Your main stay damage is simple Eldritch Blast, but your not adding CHA to it, until you get a another invocation

[Zene]

You can't use Expeditious Retreat with a shield.

Huh? Why not?

[Finieous]

Huh? Why not?

I think he was just saying I couldn't cast it with a shield equipped and my weapon drawn. Which, really isn't much of a limitation for that particular spell, but it's best just to go greatweapon to avoid the objections.