Mystic Class - OP?

[mgshamster]

A DM I'm gaming with feels the mystic class is too powerful. Over the past few weeks, the level 5 mystic with 27 psi points has done the following things in game:

Spent 25 points in one battle to manifest "Detonation" over and over, clearing the entire field of nearly all enemies.

Spent 27 points in one scene manifesting Psionic Restoration over and over again to heal allies and remove poison.

Based on those two things, the DM thinks that the class is way to OP. For example, Psionic Restoration is equivalent to Lesser Restoration, a 2nd level spell. The mystic can "cast" it 9 times. He claims no other class can cast nine 2nd Level spells in a single day at level 5.

He also doesn't believe psionics should have anything to do with healing, unless it's directly related to the brain. So the mere fact that the mystic can cure poison at all bothers him And even then, at level 20, if the mystic spends all his psi points, he can heal a maximum of 568!

He doesn't seem fazed that the mystic *has to spend all of his psi points* for this. Just that's it's possible.

Is the he right or wrong in his opinion? What evidence do we have either way?

[Aett_Thorn]

They probably do get too many psi points early on, and they do have access to a fairly staggering amount of versatility depending on which disciplines they learn. In the early game, they're not that bad, and in the late game, they're probably fine as well. But in the mid-game (levels 5-11 or so), they do seem to be really powerful.

[Daion515]

They're indeed very strong in the mid-game. At least from what I can tell. Psi points are basically the spell points variant rule from DMG. Spells points allow for a lot more versatility in terms of casting spells of 5th lvl and below. You have a pool of points and it's almost like purchasing a spell slot at the time of casting. Your pool goes up as you level and it's been a while since I've looked at the rule, but I believe the points are equivalent to if you cast your spells the way spell slots are distributed. So as a fifth level wizard, you'd have enough points to use 4 1st lvl slots, 3 2nd lvl slots, and 2 3rd lvl slots. But instead, you could use that same pool of points and cast 1st lvl slots all day long if you wished, giving you a much higher number of casts per day since using a 1st lvl slot costs less points than a 2nd or 3rd.

That combined with their really high versatility in talents makes them really powerful mid-game wise. They're similar to wizards, but instead get to, in a sense choose schools and they get 3+ spells/effects per school instead of a choice of 2 spells per level up. So while a wizard will eventually get more spells if the spend the money and time to do so. The mystic gets them for free with a bit less versatility. That's my opinion on this at least.

[tsotate]

He claims no other class can cast nine 2nd Level spells in a single day at level 5.
He's never heard of Warlocks?

[dejarnjc]

A DM I'm gaming with feels the mystic class is too powerful. Over the past few weeks, the level 5 mystic with 27 psi points has done the following things in game:

Spent 25 points in one battle to manifest "Detonation" over and over, clearing the entire field of nearly all enemies.

Spent 27 points in one scene manifesting Psionic Restoration over and over again to heal allies and remove poison.

Based on those two things, the DM thinks that the class is way to OP. For example, Psionic Restoration is equivalent to Lesser Restoration, a 2nd level spell. The mystic can "cast" it 9 times. He claims no other class can cast nine 2nd Level spells in a single day at level 5.

He also doesn't believe psionics should have anything to do with healing, unless it's directly related to the brain. So the mere fact that the mystic can cure poison at all bothers him And even then, at level 20, if the mystic spends all his psi points, he can heal a maximum of 568!

He doesn't seem fazed that the mystic *has to spend all of his psi points* for this. Just that's it's possible.

Is the he right or wrong in his opinion? What evidence do we have either way?



He's mostly wrong. Mystic is overall a bit on the weak side. They are strongest at levels 7-11. They do have very strong situational abilities though that can seem over powered but in the grand scheme of things not so much.

[Provo]

Yes the Mystic class is overpowered in its current form. It is good to be versatile, but the mystic can fill multiple roles at once and do each of them better than a different character dedicated to that role.

The healing you mentioned is a good example. The level 5 Mystic can heal 568 by using all his points. A level 5 life cleric wouldn't even get half of that by using all their spell slots. And the Mystic gets all this from just one discipline (or whatever their groups of abilities are called).

Other examples of OP:
-Mystic can easily get the highest AC in the game with very low psi point cost.
-Mystic has several non-concentration abilities that would be concentration for other classes (such as their level 1 non-concentration darkness)
-Mystic is by far the best skill monkey, with a discipline that lets them gain proficiency in essentially any skill on a moments notice (not even on a short rest cooldown). Also has low resource cost.

All of the above examples can be on the same character at once. So I can heal better than the Cleric, tank better than the Barbarian, and work skills better than the rogue all while holding multiple spells that are concentration to other classes. And all of this between one long rest.

[Provo]

By the way I love the Mystic. Just understand that it it is not finished material and has some clear balance issues.

Even after it is fully released it will still FEEL strong if somebody spends all their points in one encounter. That is ok.

[mgshamster]

FYI, the 568 HP healing using all psi points was for a *Level 20* mystic. Not a level 5.

[Rogerdodger557]

The healing you mentioned is a good example. The level 5 Mystic can heal 568 by using all his points.



Level 20, not 5.

[clash]

Honestly from those examples this had nothing to do with the mystic class and instead the adventuring day. Either that mystic was doing next to nothing in every other encounter or the dm only have one encounter instead of 6. If a wizard Austen level 5 used all his spell slots in one encounter he would seem op as well

[Provo]

Ahhh, ok I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Well I would still say that the Mystic is a little too strong in most cases, and FAR too strong if somebody is tring to abuse the system.

For the cases you mention, it doesn't seem like there is any abuse going on though. It is just somebody blowing all their resources in a short time period.

[DivisibleByZero]

He claims no other class can cast nine 2nd Level spells in a single day at level 5.
They probably do get too many psi points early on,

Anyone using the Spell Point variant in the DMG can do this.
If you look at the table for that variant, and compare it with the mystic psi pool, you'll see that they are identical up to a certain point (after which the mystic stops gaining more and has another feature which replaces that progression).

[mgshamster]

So far, my counter arguments have been:

1) The Psionic ability to heal has been in the game since OD&D, so it's perfectly fitting for the 5e mystic to be able to heal.

2) I have a Level 7 build that can heal a maximum* of 680 HP with just two spells, so a measly maximum* healing of 568 HP at level 20 using all of his psi points doesn't mean much. *Max means rolling the highest possible on the dice.

3) At level 5, a sorc can convert their other spell slots to sorc points, and then cast five 3rd level spells (the same as the mystic!). Or eight 2nd level spells (and if you instead cast seven 2nd level spells and twin the last one, you effectively have nine 2nd level spells, the same as the mystic).

[DivisibleByZero]

So far, my counter arguments have been:

1) The Psionic ability to heal has been in the game since OD&D, so it's perfectly fitting for the 5e mystic to be able to heal.

2) I have a Level 7 build that can heal a maximum* of 680 HP with just two spells, so a measly maximum* healing of 568 HP at level 20 using all of his psi points doesn't mean much. *Max means rolling the highest possible on the dice.

3) At level 5, a sorc can convert their other spell slots to sorc points, and then cast five 3rd level spells (the same as the mystic!). Or eight 2nd level spells (and if you instead cast seven 2nd level spells and twin the last one, you effectively have nine 2nd level spells, the same as the mystic).

and
4) The Mystic's Psi Point pool is exactly the same as the Spell Point variant in the DMG, literally to a T, up to a certain point. That's it. The Mystic uses that variant by default, and eventually stops using it in favor of a different advancement mechanic, similar to how the Warlock's advancement mechanic changes.

[Ventruenox]

Any class using massive resources in a Nova fashion will seem overpowered. While the Mystic class can use some rebalancing and really shines at mid levels, it has the resource management factor that all other classes do. Tweaking the adventure to wear the party down is a standard go-to solution.

That being said, I'm rolling up a Mystic tomorrow as a Grappler build and want to see how badly I have broken the mechanics. Grappling with reach and/or advantage; bypass the halved movement by leaping wtih a grappled opponent; reactions to bolster defense in AC or as resistence to elemental damage; bonus actions out the wazoo for healing, resistence, or buffing; and and ability to more than the lowly 1d4 damage. Tavern Brawler and Brawny feats on top of that? Yeah, I think I broke Grappling. Action economy and multiple attribute dependency are the only things keeping him in check. Thankfully, focusing on this one niche build will mean he won't outshine the rest of the party from doing what they do.

[dejarnjc]

Any class using massive resources in a Nova fashion will seem overpowered. While the Mystic class can use some rebalancing and really shines at mid levels, it has the resource management factor that all other classes do. Tweaking the adventure to wear the party down is a standard go-to solution.

That being said, I'm rolling up a Mystic tomorrow as a Grappler build and want to see how badly I have broken the mechanics. Grappling with reach and/or advantage; bypass the halved movement by leaping wtih a grappled opponent; reactions to bolster defense in AC or as resistence to elemental damage; bonus actions out the wazoo for healing, resistence, or buffing; and and ability to more than the lowly 1d4 damage. Tavern Brawler and Brawny feats on top of that? Yeah, I think I broke Grappling. Action economy and multiple attribute dependency are the only things keeping him in check. Thankfully, focusing on this one niche build will mean he won't outshine the rest of the party from doing what they do.



I'm interested in how this turns out. I find grappling builds to be fun and effective but pretty much never "OP" or "broken" so I'm curious how the mystic fares. Having only one attack with which to grapple is a severe limitation versus say a barbarian grappling build.



As a side note, when they do release the full version of the mystic, I really hope they find a way to allow multiple attacks for immortal mystics. My gut tells me that if they just nix the mystic's version of smites (a.k.a. lethal strike and a couple other abilities), then they would open the door to allow that and also allow for more creative psionic warrior abilities.

[DivisibleByZero]

As a side note, when they do release the full version of the mystic, I really hope they find a way to allow multiple attacks for immortal mystics. My gut tells me that if they just nix the mystic's version of smites (a.k.a. lethal strike and a couple other abilities), then they would open the door to allow that and also allow for more creative psionic warrior abilities.

I don't know how likely I consider that.
I consider psionic subclasses for the existing classes which already have Extra Attack to be much more likely.
Get the caster type class working properly and in a balanced manner before creating a gish subclass for it that could potentially be broken.

This is less of a problem for the existing classes, because they have condensed and specific spell lists, and other factors to limit potential abusive or broken combos. But for the Mystic it's a much more difficult situation to balance a gish type out of the box.

[Erit]

As a side note, when they do release the full version of the mystic, I really hope they find a way to allow multiple attacks for immortal mystics. My gut tells me that if they just nix the mystic's version of smites (a.k.a. lethal strike and a couple other abilities), then they would open the door to allow that and also allow for more creative psionic warrior abilities.

Why Immortal? I'd prefer if they would debork Soul Knife honestly, or perhaps fold Soul Knife into Immortal in some capacity.

[Jamesps]

I'm interested in how this turns out. I find grappling builds to be fun and effective but pretty much never "OP" or "broken" so I'm curious how the mystic fares. Having only one attack with which to grapple is a severe limitation versus say a barbarian grappling build.



As a side note, when they do release the full version of the mystic, I really hope they find a way to allow multiple attacks for immortal mystics. My gut tells me that if they just nix the mystic's version of smites (a.k.a. lethal strike and a couple other abilities), then they would open the door to allow that and also allow for more creative psionic warrior abilities.

The primary advantage to the Mystic grappler is their ability to jump/fly/teleport and drop what they're grappling for a bunch of free damage. This technique can be used as an effective replacement to their extra attacks, and has the advantage of being automatically successful assuming your opponent takes falling damage.

It does unfortunately burn you through your psi points pretty quickly.

[SharkForce]

mystics are powerful early, and get weak later.

early on, they get a ton of options, a bunch of interesting at-will abilities that are all relevant, and as much oomph as any other full caster, plus the benefit of using spell points instead of spell slots.

later on, they gain options more slowly and full casters are getting more and better options all the time, some (not all, mind, only some) of the mystic's at-will abilities are becoming less useful, and instead of 6th-9th level spells they get the ability to have multiple 1st-5th spells in effect at the same time or upscaled 1st level spells in 6th level slots. that isn't bad, by any means, but a mass suggestion or heroe's feast can change the entire adventuring day in ways that the mystic can't even dream of, never mind when we start talking about spells like clone, simulacrum, wish, etc.

so... the class "overall" isn't that OP, and in fact winds up much weaker than any other full caster equivalent, but it probably is a bit strong at certain levels. it also means it's very tempting for multiclass builds, which is probably partly why they've allowed it in AL (to playtest) last i heard, but not for multiclassing.

[Rogerdodger557]

mystics are powerful early, and get weak later.

early on, they get a ton of options, a bunch of interesting at-will abilities that are all relevant, and as much oomph as any other full caster, plus the benefit of using spell points instead of spell slots.

later on, they gain options more slowly and full casters are getting more and better options all the time, some (not all, mind, only some) of the mystic's at-will abilities are becoming less useful, and instead of 6th-9th level spells they get the ability to have multiple 1st-5th spells in effect at the same time or upscaled 1st level spells in 6th level slots. that isn't bad, by any means, but a mass suggestion or heroe's feast can change the entire adventuring day in ways that the mystic can't even dream of, never mind when we start talking about spells like clone, simulacrum, wish, etc.

so... the class "overall" isn't that OP, and in fact winds up much weaker than any other full caster equivalent, but it probably is a bit strong at certain levels. it also means it's very tempting for multiclass builds, which is probably partly why they've allowed it in AL (to playtest) last i heard, but not for multiclassing.

Not allowed in AL playtest yet. Probably after the next revision of it, along with Artificer.

[Ventruenox]

Multiclassing Mystics as they are currently written can easily break the core classes, at least in comparison to those who don't dip into Mystic. The psychic focus alone can redifine the power balance. Attacks with reach? No need to eat, sleep, or breathe? Skill check advantage or damage bonuses? Any skill or language the situation may call for? Take three and switch between them mid combat as a bonus action. Dang. And then you add on the Disciplines and a Talent. More powerful than Magic Initiate. Unless you also have houserules to contravene, any of these abilities might as well have been cast as a Sorceror's Subtle Spell. Who would ever want to play a single classed character again?

Mystic is mostly balanced to itself as a class, but can step on too many toes when mixed with other classes. (For extra shenannigans, Planeshift races such as the Naga or Vampire further the ridiculousness.)

[SharkForce]

well, planeshift naga is kinda OP all on its own anyways. best grapple in the game with zero investment into being a grappler, pretty much.

[Citan]

Anyone using the Spell Point variant in the DMG can do this.
If you look at the table for that variant, and compare it with the mystic psi pool, you'll see that they are identical up to a certain point (after which the mystic stops gaining more and has another feature which replaces that progression).
And that's exactly why Mystic are broken as is, and why having only one caster with spell points among all others would be a bad idea as well (confer Sorcerer thread). ;)

(Or to be honest, not just by the "essence" of being sp-based, but also because so many of their features don't need concentration AFAIR).

He's never heard of Warlocks?
That's not the same thing at all. Warlocks are limited to 2 spells per short rest for a very long time. Even when enforcing spell points on them, they would still get a "sustained potential" per short rest that stays in range of expected balance. With recommended short rest they would gain a significant boost in power compared to normal Warlocks (which suffer from a low number of scaling spells) but not something overshadowing normal casters either.
Of course if they manage to get more short rests, then balance would break, but that would probably end true with plain Warlocks also. ;)


He's mostly wrong. Mystic is overall a bit on the weak side. They are strongest at levels 7-11. They do have very strong situational abilities though that can seem over powered but in the grand scheme of things not so much.
He's mostly right. Exactly as any caster would be with the ability to fine-tune the amount of fuel to spend.
Put spell points on a Wizard and you'll make him better at sustaining attacks than most martials past level 5.
Put spell points on any caster with Fireball and he will have the ability to blast it three times more than what he should balance-wise.


A DM I'm gaming with feels the mystic class is too powerful. Over the past few weeks, the level 5 mystic with 27 psi points has done the following things in game:

Spent 25 points in one battle to manifest "Detonation" over and over, clearing the entire field of nearly all enemies.

Spent 27 points in one scene manifesting Psionic Restoration over and over again to heal allies and remove poison.

Based on those two things, the DM thinks that the class is way to OP. For example, Psionic Restoration is equivalent to Lesser Restoration, a 2nd level spell. The mystic can "cast" it 9 times. He claims no other class can cast nine 2nd Level spells in a single day at level 5.

He also doesn't believe psionics should have anything to do with healing, unless it's directly related to the brain. So the mere fact that the mystic can cure poison at all bothers him And even then, at level 20, if the mystic spends all his psi points, he can heal a maximum of 568!

He doesn't seem fazed that the mystic *has to spend all of his psi points* for this. Just that's it's possible.

Is the he right or wrong in his opinion? What evidence do we have either way?
I don't have any opinion on the healing thing fluff-wise.
For the rest, yeah, he's right. All the game balance has been designed around the fact that whatever happens, the amount of spells of each level you can cast is limited (lower spells because upcasting them is rarely a "linear" benefit, higher spells simply because of very few slots).
Once you get spell points in the fray, the only limit then becomes the action economy (a lvl 10 Cleric can spend his whole day casting Healing Words, but in the end it's always only one single cast per turn). In other words, he get an incredible buff in the "sustainability" dimension, but he is still limited in the "power" dimension.

Mystic has incredible versatility in both dimensions: the "power" dimension (since from what I remember he can use several ki points at once on the same effect, and those effects tend to scale better than spells of comparable effect), the sustainability dimension (since you use them in however way you want).
As for the "versatility" dimension, no opinion: my memory is blurry on this one, so maybe a Mystic wouldn't be more versatile than a bland Bard or Rogue. And no time to re-read now.

Now...
As long as Mystic's friend players don't mind the way he can do "sustained nova", I don't see any problem. If your DM has really trouble balancing encounters, let him discuss it directly with the player to find some common grounds.
Besides, in your example of Lesser Restoration, now that doesn't seem a problem to me, unless Mystic can restore several people at once: otherwise, he's still fairly limited by action economy. Unless you DM planned on making crippling effects stick for a while for some narrative reason... XD

[mgshamster]

Unless you DM planned on making crippling effects stick for a while for some narrative reason... XD

That's my guess.

My PC was the one who was poisoned, and the DM ruled that the poison effect had already taken place (it petrified my PCs spine, so I can't move at all).

The mystic tried to heal me and remove the poison, and that's when this whole debate ensued.

It doesn't bother me at all. I'm fine with what happened to my PC; I'm figuring that the DM has something planned. And if not? Either I'll figure out a way to deal with it, or my PC will die/retire and I'll roll up a new one! :)

[Citan]

That's my guess.

My PC was the one who was poisoned, and the DM ruled that the poison effect had already taken place (it petrified my PCs spine, so I can't move at all).

The mystic tried to heal me and remove the poison, and that's when this whole debate ensued.

It doesn't bother me at all. I'm fine with what happened to my PC; I'm figuring that the DM has something planned. And if not? Either I'll figure out a way to deal with it, or my PC will die/retire and I'll roll up a new one! :)
Then I honestly fail to understand what your DM problem was. If it was something that just needed a check, however high, someone would probably have succeeded. If it just required something similar to a Lesser Restoration, then any Cleric would have been enough so Mystic didn't outshine here...

I'm a bit puzzled now... XD

[Hrugner]

This seems like the sort of problems I hear in games that start at a level higher than 1-3. If this is a game that started at 5th level, then the DM may have yet to see the character played in situations that don't suit their abilities and is simply judging them on their own lack of experience and this small set of data.

[Waterdeep Merch]

They start out better than a wizard at their own game, but rapidly give ground. They can fake being just about anything, but at the cost of significant resources. If they seem overpowered, it's usually due to having too few encounters in a day, giving the mystic the ability to bring a missile to a knife fight. Or one of the mind control powers in the hands of a clever player (ban Telepathic Contact, ban Telepathic Contact)

Think of mystics like 'wizards for dummies', in the sense that they can theoretically solve any problem all by themselves with prep, planning, and a bit of luck. Except mystics don't get quite as powerful in exchange for ease of use.

[mgshamster]

We all started at level 1. We've worked our way up to 5.

[Astofel]

I DM for a mystic, and while I don't think the class is broken power-wise, it definitely needs some reining in when it comes to versatility. As it is, the mystic is the ultimate 5th party member; it can do anything you want it to, often at the same time it does something else. It could very easily be split into 3 classes, and for me that would fix most of the issues I have with it. Of course, I might be a little biased considering my favourite class is the bard, whose selling point is versatility, so it rubs me the wrong way that the mystic is just as, if not more, flexible than the bard.

Thankfully my mystic player is someone I trust to not make other characters obsolete, and he works well with the rest of the party. He has, however, built his character around making enemies make INT saves, which is somewhat annoying for me since almost nothing has good INT saves, and often it just doesn't make sense at the current point in the campaign to throw the kind of things that do have good INT saves at the party. He also has two abilities that I think should probably go. The first is Psionic Blast. Up to 7d8 damage, no save? Some say it's kind of like Magic Missile, only Magic Missile doesn't scale nearly as well. The second is Broken Will, which makes the target make an INT save or have their action and movement on their next turn controlled by the mystic. It's basically Dominate Monster for one turn, only it's cheaper, has no restrictions on actions taken, meaning suicide is a possibility, doesn't give the target advantage if you're fighting it, and doesn't use concentration. And they can do this from 5th level.

[nilshai]

The first is Psionic Blast. Up to 7d8 damage, no save? Some say it's kind of like Magic Missile, only Magic Missile doesn't scale nearly as well. The second is Broken Will, which makes the target make an INT save or have their action and movement on their next turn controlled by the mystic. It's basically Dominate Monster for one turn, only it's cheaper, has no restrictions on actions taken, meaning suicide is a possibility, doesn't give the target advantage if you're fighting it, and doesn't use concentration. And they can do this from 5th level.

It is not that some people say it's kind of like Magic Missile, it IS like Magic Missile, in so far that it deals an automatic hit. It works like Magic Missile but with +1 point of damage per Spell Level on average. To balance this, it has a worse damage type, can't be spread and can't be combined with Empowered Evocation, which does way more damage.
Psionic Blast is not too strong, it is in fact well balanced compared to Magic Missile.

The same applies to nearly all other abilities. Yes, the Mystic has some abilities, that are better than that of a Wizard - big surprise, one class can do it's stick better than other classes - that is GOOD. Nothing imbalanced here.

The real problem with the Mystic is, that it's abilities have IntSaves, which no one resists.

[Jerrykhor]

It is not that some people say it's kind of like Magic Missile, it IS like Magic Missile, in so far that it deals an automatic hit. It works like Magic Missile but with +1 point of damage per Spell Level on average. To balance this, it has a worse damage type, can't be spread and can't be combined with Empowered Evocation, which does way more damage.
Psionic Blast is not too strong, it is in fact well balanced compared to Magic Missile.

The same applies to nearly all other abilities. Yes, the Mystic has some abilities, that are better than that of a Wizard - big surprise, one class can do it's stick better than other classes - that is GOOD. Nothing imbalanced here.

The real problem with the Mystic is, that it's abilities have IntSaves, which no one resists.

Finally someone who understands balance. I see plenty of knee-jerk reactions when people first saw this ability. Their first reaction is 'OMG OP NERF PLS'.

The 'no VSM' part also get plenty of that. Constant subtle, uncounterspellable powers, they say? Not if you implement visual effects like glowing eyes, rune on forehead, light coming out from ears etc.

And yes, the Wizard has some abilities that are better than the Mystic too, such as being better in a magic duel. For all the Mystics powers, they are really bad at one thing: Fighting enemy wizards. No Counterspell, no Silence, no Globe of Invulnerability, many spells with Int/Wis saves... You get the point.

Spell-point/Psi-point system is OP in theory only. If the Mystic wants to blow all his points in one encounter, he can. But does he know that there will be no more fights later? If you let the Mystic know that there will be only one big fight per day, then you're a bad DM. A paladin can also blow all his slots on Smites in a single fight too, but it wont be wise.

[Astofel]

It is not that some people say it's kind of like Magic Missile, it IS like Magic Missile, in so far that it deals an automatic hit. It works like Magic Missile but with +1 point of damage per Spell Level on average. To balance this, it has a worse damage type, can't be spread and can't be combined with Empowered Evocation, which does way more damage.
Psionic Blast is not too strong, it is in fact well balanced compared to Magic Missile.

The same applies to nearly all other abilities. Yes, the Mystic has some abilities, that are better than that of a Wizard - big surprise, one class can do it's stick better than other classes - that is GOOD. Nothing imbalanced here.

The real problem with the Mystic is, that it's abilities have IntSaves, which no one resists.

You've sold me on Psionic Blast, but I still think Broken Will needs to be revised. A lot. At the very least it should use concentration.

[TroubleBrewing]

I DM for a Mystic as well. Ego Whip is so effing annoying... Every fight that has a big stompy dude in it now has to have two big stompy dudes in it, because the Mystic is going to spend his turn locking one of them down.

[Finlam]

You've sold me on Psionic Blast, but I still think Broken Will needs to be revised. A lot. At the very least it should use concentration.

Perhaps to play devil's advocate: consider that MM is also blocked entirely by a very common level 1 spell called "shield" and Psionic Blast is blocked only by monster resistances and other mystic abilities.

[Malifice]

Spent 25 points in one battle to manifest "Detonation" over and over, clearing the entire field of nearly all enemies.

Whats he doing for the other 5-7 encounters that day?


Spent 27 points in one scene manifesting Psionic Restoration over and over again to heal allies and remove poison.

Whats he doing for the other 5-7 encounters that day?


Based on those two things, the DM thinks that the class is way to OP. For example, Psionic Restoration is equivalent to Lesser Restoration, a 2nd level spell. The mystic can "cast" it 9 times. He claims no other class can cast nine 2nd Level spells in a single day at level 5.

A warlock can cast 6-8 3rd level spells per standard adventuring day at 5th level.


He also doesn't believe psionics should have anything to do with healing, unless it's directly related to the brain. So the mere fact that the mystic can cure poison at all bothers him And even then, at level 20, if the mystic spends all his psi points, he can heal a maximum of 568!


Your DM is useless. He doesnt understand the adventuring day and thinks psionics is brain related.

[Arkhios]

Your DM is useless. He doesnt understand the adventuring day and thinks psionics is brain related.

Plus, as I just said in another thread, Hit Points basically represent a mix of character's "Health, Energy, and/or Will to Fight".

A mystic's healing would affect the aspect of Will to Fight. Hit Points are an abstraction, after all.

[Malifice]

The OPs DM is basically 'Help, my long rest based PC is nova'ing encounters'.

Solution isnt ban the class; its do your job as DM and police the adventuring day.

He wont conserve resources unless you make him. If he can get away with nova strikes he will.

See how the Mystic likes running around for half a dozen encounters with no power points.

It'll happen the once, and then he'll stop.

[mgshamster]

The OPs DM is basically 'Help, my long rest based PC is nova'ing encounters'.

Solution isnt ban the class; its do your job as DM and police the adventuring day.

He wont conserve resources unless you make him. If he can get away with nova strikes he will.

See how the Mystic likes running around for half a dozen encounters with no power points.

It'll happen the once, and then he'll stop.

Yeah. That's been my argument as well. He went *nova.* That means he's out for the entire rest of the day!

Anyways, the situation has resolved.

The DM kept moving the goal posts until his argument was narrowed down to, "I don't like that they didn't explain in the fluff why Psionic healing works."

So I've pretty much convinced him that it's not OP compared to the rest of the classes while also allowing his to save face and pretend to be the victor by capitulating that "Yes, I can see your point about the lack of fluff text." Fluff text is irrelevant, but I'm not going to press him on it.

[furby076]

Multiclassing Mystics as they are currently written can easily break the core classes, at least in comparison to those who don't dip into Mystic.
Can you show a couple of examples how mystic + another class = breaking the game?


And that's exactly why Mystic are broken as is, and why having only one caster with spell points among all others would be a bad idea as well (confer Sorcerer thread). ;)

The game DID, however, envision spell points. It's an optional rule. Mystics by default use that system.

Blowing all of your psi points on one ability, which is limited to 7 psi points per action, is possible - but boy is that boring. "So you are doing X power again, at max psi points? Great, roll dice".

[MeeposFire]

Yeah. That's been my argument as well. He went *nova.* That means he's out for the entire rest of the day!

Anyways, the situation has resolved.

The DM kept moving the goal posts until his argument was narrowed down to, "I don't like that they didn't explain in the fluff why Psionic healing works."

So I've pretty much convinced him that it's not OP compared to the rest of the classes while also allowing his to save face and pretend to be the victor by capitulating that "Yes, I can see your point about the lack of fluff text." Fluff text is irrelevant, but I'm not going to press him on it.

Psionic healing? You mean the thing that has existed in one form or another in about every version of psionics (though not always the most effective kind of healing mind you)? Weird.

[mgshamster]

Psionic healing? You mean the thing that has existed in one form or another in about every version of psionics (though not always the most effective kind of healing mind you)? Weird.

Yup. It's been around since the psionic class was first introduced in 1e.

Also, turns out that I didn't convince him it wasn't OP. He's back on harping about how OP the music is again.

Newest complaint: they can cast detonate AND heal as part of the same class, and can do either one better than any other class.

Despite the fact that I've shown this to be mathematically wrong, he absolutely refuses to believe otherwise.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Yup. It's been around since the psionic class was first introduced in 1e.

Also, turns out that I didn't convince him it wasn't OP. He's back on harping about how OP the music is again.

Newest complaint: they can cast detonate AND heal as part of the same class, and can do either one better than any other class.

Despite the fact that I've shown this to be mathematically wrong, he absolutely refuses to believe otherwise.

DMs seems to want to stick to his silly guns. I would advise either switching characters or not playing with him.

Mystic is strong but not OP, and yes still needs more work but its completely playable.

[mgshamster]

DMs seems to want to stick to his silly guns. I would advise either switching characters or not playing with him.

Mystic is strong but not OP, and yes still needs more work but its completely playable.

It's not even my PC. I'm playing a frenzy barb and I'm not even complaining about the mystic. It's literally only the DM who cares.

But the guy playing the Mystic is just about ready to quit.

[SharkForce]

has your DM ever heard of the sorcadin? perhaps you should arrange an introduction.

[noob]

Sorcadins are quite strong but their main problem is that they get the good spell trick later than a pure caster.(like how a straight wizard or sorcerer will get spells earlier)

[Sicarius Victis]

Newest complaint: they can cast detonate AND heal as part of the same class, and can do either one better than any other class.

Despite the fact that I've shown this to be mathematically wrong, he absolutely refuses to believe otherwise.

Also, side note: two other members of the party are a Circle of Dreams Druid, who can not only blast and heal but do both in the same turn, and a Divine Soul SorLock, who can't do both together but can cast them with short rest slots and can eventually combine them with various Metamagics.

[carrdrivesyou]

Alright. SO....

What your DM needs to remember is that the Mystic is still in play-test. He/she can feel free to write up to WotC and let them know what he/she thinks. The *is* the 3rd version of the class, so they are aware that it still needs some tweaking. That is to be expected. Especially when you have a new type of caster that doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as other casters.

That having been said, let's looks at some of the bits that need fixing...

1. Psionic Restoration. This entire discipline is based on healing or removing negative effects similarly to a cleric or bard. All this is doing is allowing a different type of healing class that has a different toolbox that the other classes. Also, the Mystic does NOT add his INT bonus to the amount healed like a cleric or bard would. So in that regard, they are actually slightly WORSE healers. They make up for this in their versatility of being able to "upcast" by using more points.

2. AC issues. An Immortal style Mystic is quite tanky. equivalent to a barbarian if the barbarian could cast Shield like a sorcerer. BUT, that is the point of the subclass. He is supposed to be difficult to put down. Hell, the Mystic's capstone allows him to discorporate instead of die outright. So I am not entirely sure how that would affect the end game, but let's face it, most games don't get that far.

3. Power scaling. The Mystic overall has some clear balance issues. Take the Mastery of Cold ability called Freezing Rain. 6d6 cold damage per round, and if they fail their save, their movement is reduced to 0 until they pass. oh yea, its an AOE. a pretty big one that can be increased to rival a base level fireball. This can be overpowered. Mostly because it is based off of concentration. Imagine a fireball that stops people from moving and does ongoing damage and cant escape. all for one spell slot. needs fixing.

4. Psi Points. What you need to remember about psi points is that they are only recovered on a long rest. they do not recoup on a short one. I don't know of any way that you can regain them during the day. Also, they are limited by how many they can use at a time. Most of the more powerful abilities cost 5-7, and the Mystic's hard cap is 7. They obtain this cap at level 10. Waaaayyyyy too early IMO. Compared to the warlock, who gets their 4th slot at level 17, the mystic has access to their most powerful stuff too early, often causing balance issues.

I'm not going to get into every possible permutation or discipline here (see my guide for that), but I will say that there are some obvious flaws in the class as it is. There are some abilities that need a good beating with the nerf bat, and others that need buffing. IF you plan on paying a mystic, get with your DM first. Discuss what options will be available to you. Some DM's ban psionics entirely. I certainly did in 3.5, and can relate. It's the nature of the social part of DND. You gotta be a team player. You may wish to have house rules regarding certain classes in your group. Because at the end of the day, the goal is for everyone to have some fun.

Happy Gaming!
-Carr

[JMS]

I will say that Mystics do have a lot of power at low levels, particurly in their chosen areas, or in being incredibly verstile. In one group I am a archer Nomad, and my friend is an Imortal, with more HP than the Barbarian. but they do tend to lose in the sustaniblity area

[SharkForce]

4. Psi Points. What you need to remember about psi points is that they are only recovered on a long rest. they do not recoup on a short one. I don't know of any way that you can regain them during the day. Also, they are limited by how many they can use at a time. Most of the more powerful abilities cost 5-7, and the Mystic's hard cap is 7. They obtain this cap at level 10. Waaaayyyyy too early IMO. Compared to the warlock, who gets their 4th slot at level 17, the mystic has access to their most powerful stuff too early, often causing balance issues.

on point 4:

there is one way to recover them btw (soulknife). it isn't easy to use unless you're abusing it by killing every random harmless animal though. i guess if you're in an evil party that are cool with capturing people and then sacrificing them for power as well.

with that said, first off, they don't get their most powerful ability by level 10. that would be the abilities they gain to exceed their normal limit, which improve at... level 15 i think?

secondly, their level 10 abilities are, for the most part, not much stronger than level 10 abilities should be (with a few exceptions that will hopefully be corrected).

the real source of the mystic's low level power is that they basically use spell points. and then late game they fall off super hard, because the equivalent of a pair (or three, or however many) spells lower than level 5 might compete with the power of some (but not remotely all) level 6+ spells, but they certainly don't ever compare favourably to getting level 9 spells. honestly, i think there are some level 6 spells that are just straight up better... something like mass suggestion in a level 6 slot is pretty nuts.

[Ventruenox]

Can you show a couple of examples how mystic + another class = breaking the game?

I didn't say that it breaks the game. I do postulate that the multiclassing is not balanced, and that the front loaded abilities that mystic class gives are enough to show a distinct power difference compared to a single classed character. The biggest concern is with the Psychic Focus, as those abilities can potentially be on par with a fighting style, feat, or higher level spells/class features.

Let's say a monk takes one level of Immortal Mystic. They get 3 disciplines, each with a psychic focus. They take Adaptive Body, Giant Growth, and Telepathic Contact. With a bonus action, they can switch between having +5' reach on all attacks, negating any need for eating/breathing(gas attacks)/sleeping, and being the silent communication hub for the party. This is without using any Psi Points, which are still enough to add Ogre Form, a forced interrogation, or a Suggestion-esque ability once per long rest. The 5' reach alone gives the mystic monk an edge over single classed monks.

Other "always-on" abilities that could be granted by psychic focus with just a 1 level dip (Paraphrased):
-Advantage on a variety of skills checks
-Advantage on inititive rolls
-Increased movement
-+1 AC
-Proficiency in any tool/skill/language on demand
-Ignore disadvantage on ranged attacks
-Resistance to various damages
-Increased movement/terrain speeds + water breathing/feather fall
-Devil's Sight Invocation to 30' vs Warlock/Shadow Sorc 2
-Advantage on various saves
-Increased elemental damage
-Enemies receive melee disadvantage vs other opponents
-Spare the Dying as a bonus action

Some players will spend feats or multiple level dips for equivalent abilities. Here you pick 3 mix & match for a 1 level dip. Or pick 1 ability and get a pair of summonable psychic damage dealing blades for TWF or Sneak Attacks. With these passive abilities' potential, the capacity to mix it up mid combat, enough Psi Points to Subtle cast 1-4 things sans components per long rest, and get a psionic cantrip on top? The mystic dip character wins out nearly every time.

[History_buff]

I believe that the most glaring advantage mystic has is that they’re effectively using spell point variant instead of spell slots which gives much greater flexibility.

They can also do just about anything well and always have a tool they can use for different situations.

[lebefrei]

Like others have said, most of this issue seems to be with the DM not challenging your party to enough encounters before a long rest. I know my players wouldn't dare nova all of their resources like that unless it was a last ditch attempt, because they would be severely putting themselves at risk in future encounters by not having any options.

As far as the class itself goes, a good note to any DM; if you don't like untested material and you aren't sure if it is balanced, don't allow it. This is such a common, yet easily avoided issue. UA shouldn't be in games with DMs that aren't willing to do the extra work to balance around it.

On the topic of healing, using the power of one's own mind to heal is a very old idea, and I don't know why your DM finds it more absurd than faith based or "power of the words of creation"(or however you explain a bard) healing. Instant, life saving healing is all nonsense. If he can't handle psionics doing it, he probably shouldn't allow them in a game.

[carrdrivesyou]

on point 4:

there is one way to recover them btw (soulknife). it isn't easy to use unless you're abusing it by killing every random harmless animal though. i guess if you're in an evil party that are cool with capturing people and then sacrificing them for power as well.

with that said, first off, they don't get their most powerful ability by level 10. that would be the abilities they gain to exceed their normal limit, which improve at... level 15 i think?

secondly, their level 10 abilities are, for the most part, not much stronger than level 10 abilities should be (with a few exceptions that will hopefully be corrected).

the real source of the mystic's low level power is that they basically use spell points. and then late game they fall off super hard, because the equivalent of a pair (or three, or however many) spells lower than level 5 might compete with the power of some (but not remotely all) level 6+ spells, but they certainly don't ever compare favourably to getting level 9 spells. honestly, i think there are some level 6 spells that are just straight up better... something like mass suggestion in a level 6 slot is pretty nuts.

You make good points. I had forgotten about the Soulknife. Personally I think they are garbage.

But yes, they are great at mid-game, but fall short in the higher levels. I mean, no power word kill, or mass charm, or anything like that. But what they lack in raw power they make up for in versatility. By taking Nomadic Mind, they can have just about any skill, language, or tool at any time they need. I find this feature a bit game breaking, but there are SOME limits. The character wont be as good as a rogue with expertise; or as good as a fighter that is strong and took athletics. It really just varies on how the character is played, what disciplines they take, etc.

As for the DM, they need to keep in mind what their players decide on playing, so they can throw solid challenges at them and make an interesting, challenging, and fun game.

[sightlessrealit]

So in a Homebrew campaign Im in I'm playing this:
Mystic-Soulknife 6, Third Eye, Psi Weapon, Mastery Light/Darkness
Barbarian 2
Rogue 1
They have the Sword of Kas & are now a vampire.
Combat wise she is an absolute monster.

[Tespri]

I made an account thanks to this thread. As a mystic player I have some experience how things actually work in actual game as mystic. Do I consider them as OP? Not even close, I can easily make even better character out of normal PHB classes and races.

So let's address some of the issues mentioned.

"Spent 25 points in one battle to manifest "Detonation" over and over, clearing the entire field of nearly all enemies. "
Please notice... It took one battle of him to waste almost every psi point he had. Had your GM introduced another fight, he would've noticed the major weakness of mystic class. Which is Psi point usage. So he would've been next to useless in next fight.

"Spent 27 points in one scene manifesting Psionic Restoration over and over again to heal allies and remove poison."
Mystic's healing is still poor. Since it takes action to heal and close range. So they are not fit for combat healers. In fact healing is overestimated in 5e. As someone who has played as healer, tank and support I can confirm that you rather prevent damage, kill enemy faster than heal anyone. Only good heal is healing done as bonus action to wake up your unconscious 0 hp player back to the fight.

Sorcerer and Warlock, both can cast high level spells multiple-times.

"-Mystic can easily get the highest AC in the game with very low psi point cost."
Low psi point costs? Let's see... You need two for the psi shield. You need 2 for changing your skin to +2 armor. then you need 7 to get +5 as concentration check. You get one from iron/wood if you focus on it. Ironhide isn't really good, since it costs too many psipoints to be viable in long term. Not to mention that AC isn't really that good. Especially if there are multiple enemies which can end up critical striking you down, or once who attack your save checks. So simply put... It actually costs lot more for mystic to get high AC than for anyother class.
Play as a bladesinger and you will see cheap High AC.

"-Mystic has several non-concentration abilities that would be concentration for other classes"
Does not qualify it as OP. Take it as unique trait.

"Mystic is by far the best skill monkey, with a discipline that lets them gain proficiency in essentially any skill on a moments notice (not even on a short rest cooldown). Also has low resource cost."
Not really. That is until you realize that if you play mystic, you are using one of the most useless attribute as main. That is intelligence. Proficiency alone doesn't make you strong in skillchecks. Also you need to invest non-combat skill to get this. You're limited on how many talents you have by your level.

All mystic has is unreliable burst (you may end up spending 14 psipoints just to do absolutely nothing. That means you're spending 2 level 5 spells on nothing).
And good support spells, plus they are good investigators and inquisitors. Oh and almost forgot mass teleportation fairly early on.
Ice sheet, and wooden wall are extremely good.
So what did we learn from here? Only good mystic is support mystic, but not the healing short.

IF your DM has problem with his Nova capabilities, then all he needs to do is to introduce more than one encounter per day. Which is already recommended by DM book.

[Finlam]

The biggest concern is with the Psychic Focus, as those abilities can potentially be on par with a fighting style, feat, or higher level spells/class features.


Agreed. Right now the biggest problem with the Mystic is that they are front-loaded enough to make the warlock blush. If they were published in the current form, one level of Mystic would appear in virtually every meta build.

[Tespri]

Agreed. Right now the biggest problem with the Mystic is that they are front-loaded enough to make the warlock blush. If they were published in the current form, one level of Mystic would appear in virtually every meta build.
Multiclassing was forbidden in the UA. Pretty sure it might be in full release as well.

[Finlam]

Multiclassing was forbidden in the UA. Pretty sure it might be in full release as well.
[Citation needed]

[sightlessrealit]

Multiclassing was forbidden in the UA. Pretty sure it might be in full release as well.

It isn't mentioned that it's forbidden only that it wasn't made with multi-classing in mind as all UA are.

[Tespri]

[Citation needed]


"As is typical in Unearthed Arcana, the options here
haven’t been tuned for multiclassing."
That is from their UA

"It isn't mentioned that it's forbidden only that it wasn't made with multi-classing in mind as all UA are."
If it isn't meant for multi-classing. Then there is something wrong with GM that allows people to multiclass UA classes.
The whole point is, you're not suppose to multi-class with it since it's not balanced while taking that into account.

So no... You have no reason to assume that it will be multi-class viable.

Edit: even if it were, you need to actually do some math and think is it worth to put one level into it. One level is a lot away from game progression and lacking that one level might even affect your very own ability to survive. For example not taking level 5 soon as possible will end up harming you.
Usually people who think mystic is OP, is simply because they have misunderstood the class mechanics or haven't really played as one. So they have totally twisted image of it that doesn't hold in reality.

[sightlessrealit]

"As is typical in Unearthed Arcana, the options here
haven’t been tuned for multiclassing."
That is from their UA

"It isn't mentioned that it's forbidden only that it wasn't made with multi-classing in mind as all UA are."
If it isn't meant for multi-classing. Then there is something wrong with GM that allows people to multiclass UA classes.
The whole point is, you're not suppose to multi-class with it since it's not balanced while taking that into account.

So no... You have no reason to assume that it will be multi-class viable.

Edit: even if it were, you need to actually do some math and think is it worth to put one level into it. One level is a lot away from game progression and lacking that one level might even affect your very own ability to survive. For example not taking level 5 soon as possible will end up harming you.
Usually people who think mystic is OP, is simply because they have misunderstood the class mechanics or haven't really played as one. So they have totally twisted image of it that doesn't hold in reality.

As a person who exclusively multi-classes it very much is worth it.

[Tespri]

As a person who exclusively multi-classes it very much is worth it.

Again, in it's current state it's not meant to be multi-classed. So you cannot state how OP or worth it's since it's not meant to test as multi-classed. In fact, your DM shouldn't even allow you to multi-class UA stuff if he wants to avoid players breaking the game.
Roll twilight druid multiclass it with wizard and you will see what really is OP when UA is allowed to be multi-classed.

Edit:
"Mystic-Soulknife 6, Third Eye, Psi Weapon, Mastery Light/Darkness
Barbarian 2
Rogue 1"
I don't see that multiclass being worth it. You could've done far better. You sure you are playing it according to the rules?

[sightlessrealit]

Again, in it's current state it's not meant to be multi-classed. So you cannot state how OP or worth it's since it's not meant to test as multi-classed. In fact, your DM shouldn't even allow you to multi-class UA stuff if he wants to avoid players breaking the game.
Roll twilight druid multiclass it with wizard and you will see what really is OP when UA is allowed to be multi-classed.

Edit:
"Mystic-Soulknife 6, Third Eye, Psi Weapon, Mastery Light/Darkness
Barbarian 2
Rogue 1"
I don't see that multiclass being worth it. You could've done far better. You sure you are playing it according to the rules?

Pre vampire stats:20str,13dex,14con,18int,14wis,9cha
So yes I'm playing it right

[Finlam]

I would expect that every poster in this thread has played a mystic or at least sat at a table with one. I don't think saying "I've actually played a mystic" adds to your credibility over anyone else in the thread. I've also played a mystic, therefore my opinion is clearly better than everyone else's.
... I don't think that works.

That aside, front-loading a class as much as the Mystic is a problem. Just like games are already full or warlock 2/x builds, they will be filled with mystic 1/x builds if the final release does not push back some of the mystic features to later levels.

[Dudewithknives]

The mystic has so much going on in the way of variation that it is hard to call the whole class anything.

Considering any of the subclasses can pick any of the paths they want, it is easier to just say which paths are OP and which ones are not.

Ex. Soul Knife is not OP at all, but Order of the Immortal might be depending on how you build it.

Some of the disciplines are broken as hell but some are not.

Ex.

Iron Durability is just kind of OK, but Psychic Assault is crazy OP.

[Tespri]

Pre vampire stats:20str,13dex,14con,18int,14wis,9cha
So yes I'm playing it right

It's not the mystic that makes you strong. The fact that you're allowed to play as Vampire makes it strong. Add that vampire buff to any class and you have strong character.

So let's talk about from without being vampire. Name stats you took and times when you did pick up your classes. It looks like you did actually roll your stats. Which alone creates broken characters. Plus no mentioning of what race you did pick.

I'm sorry to say this... But in vanilia without vampire and stats rolled... Your character is sub-optimal. This doesn't prove anything about mystics or your particular multi-class being strong.

Make your build without rolled stats and vampire, and I will show you how much more powerful pure level 9 mystic is than this character you created.

[sightlessrealit]

It's not the mystic that makes you strong. The fact that you're allowed to play as Vampire makes it strong. Add that vampire buff to any class and you have strong character.

So let's talk about from without being vampire. Name stats you took and times when you did pick up your classes. It looks like you did actually roll your stats. Which alone creates broken characters. Plus no mentioning of what race you did pick.

I'm sorry to say this... But in vanilia without vampire and stats rolled... Your character is sub-optimal. This doesn't prove anything about mystics or your particular multi-class being strong.

Make your build without rolled stats and vampire, and I will show you how much more powerful pure level 9 mystic is than this character you created.

That's fair once I get home I'll do just that. However when you make your 9 mystic you'll have to base it around my characters concept.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Agreed. Right now the biggest problem with the Mystic is that they are front-loaded enough to make the warlock blush. If they were published in the current form, one level of Mystic would appear in virtually every meta build.
I've noticed a lot of UA is front-loaded-- remember the Undying Warlock? From what I understand, this is so that major class elements can be tested at levels that people commonly play at. I'm guessing the Mystic v4 will be split up into two classes, disciplines will have another tier of power included*, the point limit will be spread out more across 20 levels, and focus abilities will be either weakened or pushed back until 3ish to make it less front-loaded.


*Maybe some sort of special nova ability that can only be used 1/day, like how the Warlock handles lv 6+ spells?

[Tespri]

That's fair once I get home I'll do just that. However when you make your 9 mystic you'll have to base it around my characters concept.

I assume you want to have soul knife instead of any other mystic? In all honestly soul knife is probably worst out of all of them. Can make better Wu jin with similar concept. So your pick, will I show you min maxed soul knife or Wu jin which is build to be similar to soul knife.

[sightlessrealit]

I assume you want to have soul knife instead of any other mystic? In all honestly soul knife is probably worst out of all of them. Can make better Wu jin with similar concept. So your pick, will I show you min maxed soul knife or Wu jin which is build to be similar to soul knife.

The restrictions are as follows.
Soul knife, v human with brawny feat, higher str than int, & third eye

[Tespri]

The restrictions are as follows.
Soul knife, v human with brawny feat, higher str than int, & third eye

What is purpose of your class? I can't see anything good come out of that combination. You should pick dex instead of strenght.
In fact just say the purpose of your class or what you want to do with it. If your goal is to make wrestler then Soul knife alone is already bad pick. I'm seriously confused over what is the role you're suppose to have in the party.

[Finlam]

I've noticed a lot of UA is front-loaded-- remember the Undying Warlock? From what I understand, this is so that major class elements can be tested at levels that people commonly play at. I'm guessing the Mystic v4 will be split up into two classes, disciplines will have another tier of power included*, the point limit will be spread out more across 20 levels, and focus abilities will be either weakened or pushed back until 3ish to make it less front-loaded.


*Maybe some sort of special nova ability that can only be used 1/day, like how the Warlock handles lv 6+ spells?

That's a really good observation: it had not occurred to me that they artificially condensed their design into tier 1 and tier 2 to get more playtesting data. That actually makes a lot of sense and certainly explains why the class just kind of trails off after 10 as if someone just wrote "..." on the page.

I agree that the final version, and hopefully the next playtest version, will be split into 2 different classes. Then again, I've thought that since v1, when it seemed quite obvious that the designers intended a more martial type of mystic and a more caster type of mystic.

I also hope that you're right and they push back the focus till level 3: it would solve a lot of dipping issues. Who knows though? Maybe they secretly want to one-up the Hexblade...

[sightlessrealit]

What is purpose of your class? I can't see anything good come out of that combination. You should pick dex instead of strenght.
In fact just say the purpose of your class or what you want to do with it. If your goal is to make wrestler then Soul knife alone is already bad pick. I'm seriously confused over what is the role you're suppose to have in the party.

My character has several roles actually.
Let me ask you this though. Do you know about the barbarian rogue? If you have I wanted to take that combo and add mystic to the mix.
Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. Next, fun fact about the mystic. You aren't casting spells so raging + Psi abilities. Third eye is a character choice as is everything else but semi optimized to still be very strong.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's a really good observation: it had not occurred to me that they artificially condensed their design into tier 1 and tier 2 to get more playtesting data. That actually makes a lot of sense and certainly explains why the class just kind of trails off after 10 as if someone just wrote "..." on the page.

I agree that the final version, and hopefully the next playtest version, will be split into 2 different classes. Then again, I've thought that since v1, when it seemed quite obvious that the designers intended a more martial type of mystic and a more caster type of mystic.

I also hope that you're right and they push back the focus till level 3: it would solve a lot of dipping issues. Who knows though? Maybe they secretly want to one-up the Hexblade...
The Mystic as it currently stands is the sort of class I like-- a lot of vaguely related archetypes linked by a unifying mechanic, with a a lot of overlapping options within that to pick from. (Applied to the rest of the system, you'd probably wind up with something like Full Caster, Half Caster, and Non-Caster, with the traditional classes being subclasses within those). But that's pretty far from what 5e normally is, so I'd expect to see a Psion/Psychic Warrior split. I think a lot of people have said similar things.

Honestly, I think moving stuff like Focus and Hex Warrior (and heck, the Rogue's Expertise, Hex Warrior*, Agonizing Blast... really, most things people dip for) back to 3 is a good idea. The first three levels pass in a blur, so there's not much lost for single-class characters, but three levels is a lot for a dip. Add some flavor text about how the levels 1 and 2 are "apprentice" levels and present starting at 3 as an official variant...


*Though it occurs to me that the easiest Hexblade "fix" would be to make Hex Warrior an Invocation. It makes the dip a little less tempting, since you need two levels, without putting leaving single-class characters helpless for long; it also lets you move away from the "all Hexblades are fighters" bit, though I admit you'd need to shuffle the bonus spells too... I digress.

[Dudewithknives]

The Mystic as it currently stands is the sort of class I like-- a lot of vaguely related archetypes linked by a unifying mechanic, with a a lot of overlapping options within that to pick from. (Applied to the rest of the system, you'd probably wind up with something like Full Caster, Half Caster, and Non-Caster, with the traditional classes being subclasses within those). But that's pretty far from what 5e normally is, so I'd expect to see a Psion/Psychic Warrior split. I think a lot of people have said similar things.

Honestly, I think moving stuff like Focus and Hex Warrior (and heck, the Rogue's Expertise, Hex Warrior*, Agonizing Blast... really, most things people dip for) back to 3 is a good idea. The first three levels pass in a blur, so there's not much lost for single-class characters, but three levels is a lot for a dip. Add some flavor text about how the levels 1 and 2 are "apprentice" levels and present starting at 3 as an official variant...


*Though it occurs to me that the easiest Hexblade "fix" would be to make Hex Warrior an Invocation. It makes the dip a little less tempting, since you need two levels, without putting leaving single-class characters helpless for long; it also lets you move away from the "all Hexblades are fighters" bit, though I admit you'd need to shuffle the bonus spells too... I digress.

Pact of the blade already has a TON of invocation taxes, don't pile on another one.

Eldritch Smite
Thirsting Blade
Improved Pact weapon
Life drinker

and now

Hex warrior.

That is far too many invocation taxes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pact of the blade already has a TON of invocation taxes, don't pile on another one.

Eldritch Smite
Thirsting Blade
Improved Pact weapon
Life drinker

and now

Hex warrior.

That is far too many invocation taxes.
Ehh, fair. Trying to fit the gish-option in as a Pact (a small thematic choice) was probably a bad call from the start, though; they're kind of stuck playing catch-up now.

[Dudewithknives]

Ehh, fair. Trying to fit the gish-option in as a Pact (a small thematic choice) was probably a bad call from the start, though; they're kind of stuck playing catch-up now.

Easiest fix.

Drop Hex Warrior cha to hit ability and just put it on Pact of the Blade normally, and give them a second attack at level 5.

If that seems too much give Chain and Tome a little buff to even it out.
Let tome do rituals free, and honestly Chain is plenty great as it is.

[Tespri]

My character has several roles actually.
Let me ask you this though. Do you know about the barbarian rogue? If you have I wanted to take that combo and add mystic to the mix.
Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. Next, fun fact about the mystic. You aren't casting spells so raging + Psi abilities. Third eye is a character choice as is everything else but semi optimized to still be very strong.

Barbarian rogue? You did put one dip of rogue and two of barbarian. Mystic isn't in the mix, it's more like that everything else is mixed with mystic. This isn't just one level dip to mystic to get something beneficial. I assume that you took two dips to barbarians to get advantage on all attacks. This is actually waste of levels, especially if you're a mystic.

"Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. "
No it's not. It's good for rogue, but not for barbarian who relies on strength.

So since you're not building a someone who grapples and brawls. The whole concept of brawler as a feat is pointless. In fact you cannot grapple when you're using your soul knives. You need free hand to grapple and soul knives take both hands from your usage. Worse... If you release one of the weapons, the both will disappear. Not only that but the weapon buff your mystic gets from soul knives, doesn't stack with any other weapon.

What it looks to me... Is that you wanted to build a rogue who get's easy advantages. You should just ditch barbarian in that case.
There are several problems with using strength instead of a dex and biggest one is that Dex is best stats in the whole game. It gives you AC, hit chance and damage. You have no reason to pick strength as soul knives. Taking strength means that you will become bad glass canon.

In fact you could make Wu jin or even soul knive that get's advantages all the time without putting any point to barbarian. Light and shadow gives you nerfed version of devilseye, and darkness spell that doesn't need concentration. Meaning you will attack with advantage and they will be with disadvantage.
Rogue for sneak attack damage? How about you instead put that brawler feat use magic initiate, pick a booming blade as cantrip (and something else).
Then be Wujin, and choose shadow blade as one of your wizard spells. At level 9 you will do 6d8 + dex and +2d8 (if target moves).
Not only that but shadow blade gives you advantage in darkness or dim light.

As Wu jin, your shadowy mystic assassin is actually much better than Soul knives. But even as Soul knives you don't need either barbarian or rogue in fact both of them limits badly how many talents you can have, which you really need since as soul knives you have 2 less than any other mystic.
With mastery of force you can get 14+ dex ac. Which if you min max your dex to 20 at level 8. You will have 19 ac + 2 if you take tough hide and +1 from wood/iron mastery.
Raging doesn't really add any damage at all to you. You get same amount of bonus by simply taking those attribute bonuses you get. And you almost never get hit anyway, and if you do mastery of ice guarantees that you have that 20 temp hitpoints.

You literally have no reason to take any level as rogue or barbarian.

[sightlessrealit]

Barbarian rogue? You did put one dip of rogue and two of barbarian. Mystic isn't in the mix, it's more like that everything else is mixed with mystic. This isn't just one level dip to mystic to get something beneficial. I assume that you took two dips to barbarians to get advantage on all attacks. This is actually waste of levels, especially if you're a mystic.

"Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. "
No it's not. It's good for rogue, but not for barbarian who relies on strength.

So since you're not building a someone who grapples and brawls. The whole concept of brawler as a feat is pointless. In fact you cannot grapple when you're using your soul knives. You need free hand to grapple and soul knives take both hands from your usage. Worse... If you release one of the weapons, the both will disappear. Not only that but the weapon buff your mystic gets from soul knives, doesn't stack with any other weapon.

What it looks to me... Is that you wanted to build a rogue who get's easy advantages. You should just ditch barbarian in that case.
There are several problems with using strength instead of a dex and biggest one is that Dex is best stats in the whole game. It gives you AC, hit chance and damage. You have no reason to pick strength as soul knives. Taking strength means that you will become bad glass canon.

In fact you could make Wu jin or even soul knive that get's advantages all the time without putting any point to barbarian. Light and shadow gives you nerfed version of devilseye, and darkness spell that doesn't need concentration. Meaning you will attack with advantage and they will be with disadvantage.
Rogue for sneak attack damage? How about you instead put that brawler feat use magic initiate, pick a booming blade as cantrip (and something else).
Then be Wujin, and choose shadow blade as one of your wizard spells. At level 9 you will do 6d8 + dex and +2d8 (if target moves).
Not only that but shadow blade gives you advantage in darkness or dim light.

As Wu jin, your shadowy mystic assassin is actually much better than Soul knives. But even as Soul knives you don't need either barbarian or rogue in fact both of them limits badly how many talents you can have, which you really need since as soul knives you have 2 less than any other mystic.
With mastery of force you can get 14+ dex ac. Which if you min max your dex to 20 at level 8. You will have 19 ac + 2 if you take tough hide and +1 from wood/iron mastery.
Raging doesn't really add any damage at all to you. You get same amount of bonus by simply taking those attribute bonuses you get. And you almost never get hit anyway, and if you do mastery of ice guarantees that you have that 20 temp hitpoints.

You literally have no reason to take any level as rogue or barbarian.

You do realize that rogues can use strength with a finesse weapon and get sneak attack right?

[Tespri]

You do realize that rogues can use strength with a finesse weapon and get sneak attack right?

I do realize, but why would you do so when you're sacrificing your Initiave, dex save and AC?

[sightlessrealit]

I do realize? but why would you do so when you're sacrificing your Initiave, dex save and AC?

Why should I care about all that when I want my character to be strong?

[Tespri]

Why should I care about all that when I want my character to be strong?

You can play your character however you want. But this just proves... Your character is not powerful. You have made sub-optimal build which does worse than pure mystic would. Heck... Worse than any pure classic class. My point was simply to show, that your claim of being powerful, is purely based on you getting lucky with rolled stats and GM allowing you to be vampire. Therefore, your opinion over how viable multi-classing to mystic would be based on your experience, is invalid. Especially since I did just demonstrate how pure mystic does the same things you want to do, far better than your multi-classed mystic. You literally nerfed your own character.

[sightlessrealit]

You can play your character however you want. But this just proves... Your character is not powerful. You have made sub-optimal build which does worse than pure mystic would. Heck... Worse than any pure classic class. My point was simply to show, that your claim of being powerful, is purely based on you getting lucky with rolled stats and GM allowing you to be vampire. Therefore, your opinion over how viable multi-classing to mystic would be based on your experience, is invalid. Especially since I did just demonstrate how pure mystic does the same things you want to do, far better than your multi-classed mystic. You literally nerfed your own character.

Lol says the person who hasn't seen the character in action.

[Dudewithknives]

You can play your character however you want. But this just proves... Your character is not powerful. You have made sub-optimal build which does worse than pure mystic would. Heck... Worse than any pure classic class. My point was simply to show, that your claim of being powerful, is purely based on you getting lucky with rolled stats and GM allowing you to be vampire. Therefore, your opinion over how viable multi-classing to mystic would be based on your experience, is invalid. Especially since I did just demonstrate how pure mystic does the same things you want to do, far better than your multi-classed mystic. You literally nerfed your own character.

Just because he has a light finesse weapon does not mean he has to use dex for it.

He could easily keep his fancy 1d8 light melee weapon and use strength on it.

It is like having a free, concealed, longsword that can be sneak attacked with that also does damage that ignored B/S/P resistance.

It is a perfectly viable build.

[Tespri]

Lol says the person who hasn't seen the character in action.

Dude... You do realize that every character with those stats is a monster in combat? Use my build instead of that pointless multi-class. Use it with those stats and your GM will either kick you out from the group or outright ban mystic. I did just demonstrate that build which I suggested does actually more damage than sneak attack at the same level (hence rendering rogue pointless). I also did show that your AC would be on levels that some enemies needs to crit you in order to even hit you. Not only that but you have more room for feats or attributes, and disciplines which give you more adaptability and power. In fact imagine that 6d8 + dex to become 7d10 + 6d8 + 7d6 dex. That is the level of stuff you're dealing with. So... With my build, you would be tanker, you would have more psi points to use, more flexible, and you would do a lot more damage. You would still have everything you want to have with your current build.

[Tespri]

Just because he has a light finesse weapon does not mean he has to use dex for it.

He could easily keep his fancy 1d8 light melee weapon and use strength on it.

It is like having a free, concealed, longsword that can be sneak attacked with that also does damage that ignored B/S/P resistance.

It is a perfectly viable build.

I never said he has to have dex. I pointed out that DEX is far superior attribute than Strength. Both gives damage, but only one of them gives survivality (aka dex).

"It is like having a free, concealed, longsword that can be sneak attacked with that also does damage that ignored B/S/P resistance."
You can do same with Wu jin.
It's viability depends on what you think as viable is. In my eyes, it's terrible build, which is only working out because he rolled his stats and got lucky, while GM giving him vampire buff which gives enormous stat buffs.

May I remind you.. He did dip in rogue, not to mystic.

Therefore his build is not evidence for mystic being powerful for multi-classing. It just points out well known fact. Fact that has been known for decades. If you roll your stats well, your character will be broken no matter what class you play.

Plus his tavern brawler feat doesn't have any synergy at all with his build.

[sightlessrealit]

I never said he has to have dex. I pointed out that DEX is far superior attribute than Strength. Both gives damage, but only one of them gives survivality (aka dex).

"It is like having a free, concealed, longsword that can be sneak attacked with that also does damage that ignored B/S/P resistance."
You can do same with Wu jin.
It's viability depends on what you think as viable is. In my eyes, it's terrible build, which is only working out because he rolled his stats and got lucky, while GM giving him vampire buff which gives enormous stat buffs.

May I remind you.. He did dip in rogue, not to mystic.

Therefore his build is not evidence for mystic being powerful for multi-classing. It just points out well known fact. Fact that has been known for decades. If you roll your stats well, your character will be broken no matter what class you play.

Plus his tavern brawler feat doesn't have any synergy at all with his build.

I don't have tavern brawler I have brawny. Big difference there.

[Tespri]

I don't have tavern brawler I have brawny. Big difference there.

Ah UA feat... Still doesen't matter. From brute force you can get advantage on athletic checks and feats of strenght if you want to grapple. In all honestly, I don't see why you would pick brawny. As I already said.... You cannot grapple with those psionic blades. They take both of your hands and you need free hand for grapple.

Anyway, do you have any counter-argument or are you going to nitpick about small details while the large point still is there without being addressed?

[sightlessrealit]

Ah UA feat... Still doesen't matter. From brute force you can get advantage on athletic checks and feats of strenght if you want to grapple. In all honestly, I don't see why you would pick brawny. As I already said.... You cannot grapple with those psionic blades. They take both of your hands and you need free hand for grapple.

Anyway, do you have any counter-argument or are you going to nitpick about small details while the large point still is there without being addressed?

When I get home yes. Also I can grapple while the blades are out cause my dm has allowed me to have them extend from her arms instead.

[Dudewithknives]

When I get home yes. Also I can grapple while the blades are out cause my dm has allowed me to have them extend from her arms instead.

There is no rule that says you have to keep BOTH manifested at all times anyway.

You could just manifest one.

If your DM let you keep hands free and use them that is just a broken house rule that should not be there, that would be like ignoring somatic components for spells just because the caster wants to use a shield.

[Arkhios]

When I get home yes. Also I can grapple while the blades are out cause my dm has allowed me to have them extend from her arms instead.

And this here is where the character becomes a homebrew alteration and not precisely as written for the playtest document. It's strictly not from the RAW of a document that is as official as it gets, therefore, it's not at the same level with other characters. Your argument about Mystic being OP got flown out the window.

[Tespri]

When I get home yes. Also I can grapple while the blades are out cause my dm has allowed me to have them extend from her arms instead.

That doesn't make mystic as powerful class. It only does things because your GM allows you to break game's rules. So this doesn't apply in most games that people play, therefore it's useless skill in other people's games.

[Tespri]

There is no rule that says you have to keep BOTH manifested at all times anyway.

You could just manifest one.

If your DM let you keep hands free and use them that is just a broken house rule that should not be there, that would be like ignoring somatic components for spells just because the caster wants to use a shield.

Expect there is.
"As a bonus action, you create scintillating knives of energy that project from both of your fists.
You can’t hold anything in your hands while manifesting these blades."
Also means that you cannot grapple. His GM literally breaks the rules made for mystic.

According to text, both WILL manifest same time and BOTH will be dismissed as bonus action.

The whole purpose of them seems to be to prevent you to use both hands on something else. Like carrying shield, or grapple.

[Dudewithknives]

Expect there is.
"As a bonus action, you create scintillating knives of energy that project from both of your fists.
You can’t hold anything in your hands while manifesting these blades."
Also means that you cannot grapple. His GM literally breaks the rules made for mystic.

According to text, both WILL manifest same time and BOTH will be dismissed as bonus action.

The whole purpose of them seems to be to prevent you to use both hands on something else. Like carrying shield, or grapple.

Nowhere does it say you must dismiss both, it says can dismiss both.

Nothing in the ability at all says you MUST keep both, or that you have to dismiss both at the same time.

Could that be implied, sure, but it is not stated in the ability.

There would be nothing wrong with someone dismissing one mystic blade instead of 2.

[Tespri]

Nowhere does it say you must dismiss both, it says can dismiss both.

Nothing in the ability at all says you MUST keep both, or that you have to dismiss both at the same time.

Could that be implied, sure, but it is not stated in the ability.

There would be nothing wrong with someone dismissing one mystic blade instead of 2.

In order there to be option to dismiss one of them, they need to state it in the rules.
Ability doesn't state that you have a choice. It clearly points out that you will be forced to manifest both same time.

"There would be nothing wrong with someone dismissing one mystic blade instead of 2"
Unless class is made to balance around it that it cannot use those hands as free hands anymore. Which you sir don't know. So far it really looks like to be the case.

[Dudewithknives]

In order there to be option to dismiss one of them, they need to state it in the rules.
Ability doesn't state that you have a choice. It clearly points out that you will be forced to manifest both same time.

"There would be nothing wrong with someone dismissing one mystic blade instead of 2"
Unless class is made to balance around it that it cannot use those hands as free hands anymore. Which you sir don't know. So far it really looks like to be the case.

You do not know that the class is made to balance that way either.

[Tespri]

You do not know that the class is made to balance that way either.

Does it matter? The fact that they state that you cannot hold anything else in hands already states that it's meant to force both of your hands being used.
Also you're just now trying to act like a smartass, but you're not making good case of yourself when your argument is "well rules doesn't state that it cannot be done so it can be done".
If lists were to be made what you can and cannot do in this game. Then list of cannot's would be so big that it would probably take life time for you to read.

For example... Nothing in rules says that you cannot eat these blades.

[Dudewithknives]

Does it matter? The fact that they state that you cannot hold anything else in hands already states that it's meant to force both of your hands being used.
Also you're just now trying to act like a smartass, but you're not making good case of yourself when your argument is "well rules doesn't state that it cannot be done so it can be done".
If lists were to be made what you can and cannot do in this game. Then list of cannot's would be so big that it would probably take life time for you to read.

Stating that you can't hold anything in the hand with the blade is just saying you can't double use a hand for a weapon and another item, that has nothing to do with whether you can have 1 blade or 2.

You are arguing that your RAI is RAW, it isn't.

My stance is just as valid as yours.

[Tespri]

Stating that you can't hold anything in the hand with the blade is just saying you can't double use a hand for a weapon and another item, that has nothing to do with whether you can have 1 blade or 2.

You are arguing that your RAI is RAW, it isn't.

My stance is just as valid as yours.
Nothing in rules says that you cannot hold two weapons in one hand. Nothing in rules says that you cannot use your sword as shield. Nothing in rules says that you cannot eat your sword and can't get nutrition from it.

Clearly the intent from stating that you cannot hold ANYTHING is to prevent people from carrying shields or any other weapons instead of these two blades.

"You are arguing that your RAI is RAW, it isn't"
Both RAI and RAW are against you. Nothing says in RAW that you can dismiss only one of them. And RAI points out intention of preventing people from holding anything else beside those blades.

[Dudewithknives]

Nothing in rules says that you cannot hold two weapons in one hand. Nothing in rules says that you cannot use your sword as shield. Nothing in rules says that you cannot eat your sword and can't nutritionis from it.

Clearly the intent from stating that you cannot hold ANYTHING is to prevent people from carrying shields or any other weapons instead of these two blades.

"You are arguing that your RAI is RAW, it isn't"
Both RAI and RAW are against you. Nothing says in RAW that you can dismiss only one of them. And RAI points out intention of preventing people from holding anything else beside those blades.

Yes there is, you keep trying to put the word "must" into it. It is not there.

Starting at 1st level, you gain the ability to
manifest a blade of psychic energy. As a bonus
action, you create scintillating knives of energy
that project from both of your fists.

Notice it says create a blade of energy that projects, it does not say can, that means if you summon one, you summon both.
That is the language of the ability.

You can’t
hold anything in your hands while manifesting
these blades.

Again, it specifically says can't, so no way around that.

You can dismiss them as a bonus
action.

Here is where the difference is, it says you "can" dismiss them as a bonus action.
It did not say "you dismiss them as a bonus action" it said can.
That means you have the option to or not.

I see at as you have to option to dismiss both or one.
You see it as you must do both at the same time.

I did not add anything to what it said, you are using examples that nobody made.

[Tespri]

Yes there is, you keep trying to put the word "must" into it. It is not there.

Starting at 1st level, you gain the ability to
manifest a blade of psychic energy. As a bonus
action, you create scintillating knives of energy
that project from both of your fists.

Notice it says create a blade of energy that projects, it does not say can, that means if you summon one, you summon both.
That is the language of the ability.

You can’t
hold anything in your hands while manifesting
these blades.

Again, it specifically says can't, so no way around that.

You can dismiss them as a bonus
action.

Here is where the difference is, it says you "can" dismiss them as a bonus action.
It did not say "you dismiss them as a bonus action" it said can.
That means you have the option to or not.

I see at as you have to option to dismiss both or one.
You see it as you must do both at the same time.

I did not add anything to what it said, you are using examples that nobody made.

"Yes there is, you keep trying to put the word "must" into it. It is not there."
Citate the page which states that if you hold weapon in hand, you cannot hold anything else beside it.

"Notice it says create a blade of energy that projects, it does not say can, that means if you summon one, you summon both.
That is the language of the ability.
"
Notice how it mentions right after it:
"As a bonus
action, you create scintillating knives of energy
that project from both of your fists. "
Knives means more than one knife. BOTH of your fists points that these will come out of your fists. FROM BOTH OF THEM.

"Again, it specifically says can't, so no way around that."
It literally states that as long as long as you have these blades, you cannot hold anything in your hands.

"Here is where the difference is, it says you "can" dismiss them as a bonus action. "
Notice how it says THEM. Which means many. If they wanted that only one, then they would have stated "you can dismiss one or both of them."
Word "can" simply points out you having option to DISMISS THEM.

You're trying to twists meanings of the words while ignoring obvious wordings. Like BOTH, FISTS, KNIVES.
If they meant that you can create one or more, they would've stated so.

"I did not add anything to what it said, you are using examples that nobody made. "
Examples were used to point how silly your argument about if something isn't said in rules, therefore it's possible. You don't balance classes and game around what is not said. You balance it around what is said.

[The_Jette]

You can dismiss them as a bonus action.

Since the statement is that you can "dismiss them" that kind of indicates that you have to dismiss them both at the same time, not individually. Your interpretation may be different, though. That's just what I get from it.

[Dudewithknives]

Since the statement is that you can "dismiss them" that kind of indicates that you have to dismiss them both at the same time, not individually. Your interpretation may be different, though. That's just what I get from it.

I know I never once said that my idea was the only correct one I just said that it could be read that way.

[sightlessrealit]

Barbarian rogue? You did put one dip of rogue and two of barbarian. Mystic isn't in the mix, it's more like that everything else is mixed with mystic. This isn't just one level dip to mystic to get something beneficial. I assume that you took two dips to barbarians to get advantage on all attacks. This is actually waste of levels, especially if you're a mystic.

"Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. "
No it's not. It's good for rogue, but not for barbarian who relies on strength.

So since you're not building a someone who grapples and brawls. The whole concept of brawler as a feat is pointless. In fact you cannot grapple when you're using your soul knives. You need free hand to grapple and soul knives take both hands from your usage. Worse... If you release one of the weapons, the both will disappear. Not only that but the weapon buff your mystic gets from soul knives, doesn't stack with any other weapon.

What it looks to me... Is that you wanted to build a rogue who get's easy advantages. You should just ditch barbarian in that case.
There are several problems with using strength instead of a dex and biggest one is that Dex is best stats in the whole game. It gives you AC, hit chance and damage. You have no reason to pick strength as soul knives. Taking strength means that you will become bad glass canon.

In fact you could make Wu jin or even soul knive that get's advantages all the time without putting any point to barbarian. Light and shadow gives you nerfed version of devilseye, and darkness spell that doesn't need concentration. Meaning you will attack with advantage and they will be with disadvantage.
Rogue for sneak attack damage? How about you instead put that brawler feat use magic initiate, pick a booming blade as cantrip (and something else).
Then be Wujin, and choose shadow blade as one of your wizard spells. At level 9 you will do 6d8 + dex and +2d8 (if target moves).
Not only that but shadow blade gives you advantage in darkness or dim light.

As Wu jin, your shadowy mystic assassin is actually much better than Soul knives. But even as Soul knives you don't need either barbarian or rogue in fact both of them limits badly how many talents you can have, which you really need since as soul knives you have 2 less than any other mystic.
With mastery of force you can get 14+ dex ac. Which if you min max your dex to 20 at level 8. You will have 19 ac + 2 if you take tough hide and +1 from wood/iron mastery.
Raging doesn't really add any damage at all to you. You get same amount of bonus by simply taking those attribute bonuses you get. And you almost never get hit anyway, and if you do mastery of ice guarantees that you have that 20 temp hitpoints.

You literally have no reason to take any level as rogue or barbarian.

Alrighty, let have look at this and how much you'v wen't away from the restrictions I gave you.

Wu jin this, Wu jin, that. Hey look at that already going away from the restrictions. OH, whats this, Dex priority over Str, boy you sure don't like to listen. I gave you restrictions on the build so that the two would properly be compared. Not that shadow blade abomination which wasn't even around when this character was created so I have no idea why your even bringing Xanthers in. Booming Blade?! Cool, so what? Most enemies don't flee & in darkness enemies are less likely to flee anyways. If I want to max consistent damage I'd go for Green-Flame Blade since it has more chance of going off(disregarding immunities).

But finally, lets get into the big picture here. Your making a character that is based around assumptions. And poorly I might add seeing as you didn't even follow the rules.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/4d/71/f1/4d71f1c51174774fc58719c171f555bc.jpg
^ That is the character I'm working with.
A 4"11 woman experiment with super human like strength(Brawny & eventually Bear totem barbarian level 6). Her Soul Knives have been fluffed & homebrewed to be metal blades that grow out on the side of her arms. Can Shadow blade be fluffed/homebrewed to do that? For one arm perhaps, not two. Aka why Soul knife is being used.
Her barbarian class pick for rage and reckless? That her going into combat mode state. You can't fluff that with any mystic focus nearly as much as you can with a barbarian rage.
And finally, Rogue. To emphasis the set of skills that were implanted into her brain to be better than a majority of normal humans. More levels will be taken into this as well.
But what of the mystic stuff? I only have light & darkness because she's a vampire (literally just became level 9 & a vampire at the end of the last session, And seeking out to become a vampire was the auto geas affect that can apply as a major detrimental affect when attuning to the Sword of Kas, I didn't necessarily want to become one but I don't mind working with the DM to progress his plot). As for Third Eye, again this is a flavor pick(one I really like mechanically) because of the dark vision, + all the other special vision effects it grants. All of which have come in useful.
Now for those lovely stat blocks you wanted.
9 for strength, 5 for Dex, 5 for Con, 5 for Int, 3 for Wis, 0 for Cha
Str15+feat+race+Asi=18, Dex13, Con13+race=14, Int13+Asi=14,Wis11, Cha8
So
Str18, Dex13, Con14, Int14, Wis11, Cha8
Let me guess you want to rage so hard cause Str is being prioritized over Dex. Big woop. The build is still rather strong and does it's job very well with those stats. Or maybe you care about Int being so low. If I was using a bunch of Saving throws you may have a point but nope this is a melee fighting build.

[Tespri]

Alrighty, let have look at this and how much you'v wen't away from the restrictions I gave you.

Wu jin this, Wu jin, that. Hey look at that already going away from the restrictions. OH, whats this, Dex priority over Str, boy you sure don't like to listen. I gave you restrictions on the build so that the two would properly be compared. Not that shadow blade abomination which wasn't even around when this character was created so I have no idea why your even bringing Xanthers in. Booming Blade?! Cool, so what? Most enemies don't flee & in darkness enemies are less likely to flee anyways. If I want to max consistent damage I'd go for Green-Flame Blade since it has more chance of going off(disregarding immunities).

But finally, lets get into the big picture here. Your making a character that is based around assumptions. And poorly I might add seeing as you didn't even follow the rules.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/4d/71/f1/4d71f1c51174774fc58719c171f555bc.jpg
^ That is the character I'm working with.
A 4"11 woman experiment with super human like strength(Brawny & eventually Bear totem barbarian level 6). Her Soul Knives have been fluffed & homebrewed to be metal blades that grow out on the side of her arms. Can Shadow blade be fluffed/homebrewed to do that? For one arm perhaps, not two. Aka why Soul knife is being used.
Her barbarian class pick for rage and reckless? That her going into combat mode state. You can't fluff that with any mystic focus nearly as much as you can with a barbarian rage.
And finally, Rogue. To emphasis the set of skills that were implanted into her brain to be better than a majority of normal humans. More levels will be taken into this as well.
But what of the mystic stuff? I only have light & darkness because she's a vampire (literally just became level 9 & a vampire at the end of the last session, And seeking out to become a vampire was the auto geas affect that can apply as a major detrimental affect when attuning to the Sword of Kas, I didn't necessarily want to become one but I don't mind working with the DM to progress his plot). As for Third Eye, again this is a flavor pick(one I really like mechanically) because of the dark vision, + all the other special vision effects it grants. All of which have come in useful.
Now for those lovely stat blocks you wanted.
9 for strength, 5 for Dex, 5 for Con, 5 for Int, 3 for Wis, 0 for Cha
Str15+feat+race+Asi=18, Dex13, Con13+race=14, Int13+Asi=14,Wis11, Cha8
So
Str18, Dex13, Con14, Int14, Wis11, Cha8
Let me guess you want to rage so hard cause Str is being prioritized over Dex. Big woop. The build is still rather strong and does it's job very well with those stats. Or maybe you care about Int being so low. If I was using a bunch of Saving throws you may have a point but nope this is a melee fighting build.
"Alrighty, let have look at this and how much you'v wen't away from the restrictions I gave you."
That was not the build I was suppose to make. I simply stated clearly that what your purpose for your character is, can be done much better if you simply ignore whole multi-class. I stated this while waiting for your exact build without rolled stats and vampire buff.

"Hey look at that already going away from the restrictions. "
again... This is you ignoring that I haven't even made the character yet for you. Basically you're attacking strawman in here. I expect that rest of your comment is based on same strawman argument.

" I gave you restrictions on the build so that the two would properly be compared. "
Again, I were giving example that your whole build concept of having strength instead of dex was silly and far from optimal.

" Booming Blade?! Cool, so what? Most enemies don't flee & in darkness enemies are less likely to flee anyways. "
If you actually read your class, you would realize that there are skills which can make mystic FORCE his opponents to move. Not to mention, booming blade is good if you only have one attack. Switch that to green flame if you're obsessed over do they move or not.

Next you provide edgy picture of your character. If her strength is suppose to come from mystic powers. Then for far more reasons you should ignore strenght score and instead use Brute force discipline.

"Her Soul Knives have been fluffed & homebrewed to be metal blades that grow out on the side of her arms. "
Fluff that breaks the rules. It's no longer fluff at that point. Fluff is suppose to be something that has no affect on game mechanics. It would be fluff only if restriction of not using hands would still apply.

"Can Shadow blade be fluffed/homebrewed to do that?"
Literally everything can. There is nothing that prevents people from fluffing and homebrewing their stuff. Only problem you have with it is GM and other players in your party. Heck you could even "fluff" that paladin does necrotic damage instead of divine. Or that his smite comes out of his mouth instead of his weapon etc...

" For one arm perhaps, not two. Aka why Soul knife is being used. "
When it comes to homebrewring, you're already breaking the core game. You can homebrew spells as well.

"You can't fluff that with any mystic focus nearly as much as you can with a barbarian rage. "
Expect you can... Like mastery of force creates the mystic armor. Can easily be fluffed to make you look like super sayan if you so wish.

Seriously more I read your text the more horrible your whole concept becomes. So basically you made bad character just to roleplay some character which looks awesome in your eyes. Then you proceed to tell how awesome multiclassin is when you have broke several game's rules, and already are using homebrew version of mystic. Not to mentioning having ridicilously good stat rolls in beginning with and vampire. I'm sorry... but your build is horrible. It isn't optimal to anything, nor is it even versatile.

"Sword of Kas"
Is that mentioned somewhere in DM book? I really can't remember it being included in artifacts. Also this really looks like that you're having some sort of power fantasy and GM is giving you all sorts of goodies to make you appear as superman.


"Str18, Dex13, Con14, Int14, Wis11, Cha8"
So you are unarmored.
Let's see. Your mystic skills are almost pointless to use with that low int and your AC is 13. Graz... You're glass that is not even a canon.

"Let me guess you want to rage so hard cause Str is being prioritized over Dex."
Not raging, Simply stating that its a bad idea.

"Big woop."
With that AC you will get one shoted by most boss encounters. Heck even few goblins are deadly threat to you. Or do you happen to use medium armor? Girl in picture sure isn't.

So okay, now I will proceed to make you a LEGIT soul knives, carry stuff and third eye.
Also you didn't mention what disciplines you took... Seriously...

Okay Since you're obsessed making only close combat guy who's strength has to be higher than any other stat. Technically you said int, so I could still make dex 20, but I'm not going to since you clearly said that your intent is to play as a slow brute.
Stats: 20 Strength (asi twice, plus your bad feat), dex 14 (human start), Con 16(human start) Int 12, wisdom 8, cha 8

Wear medium armor provided by the soul knives discipline. AC purely will be 17.
Disciplines:
1. Bestial Form (grants +2 ac as bonus action, so AC will be 19)
2. Brute Force (grants advantage on Strength Athletic checks, meaning with you will most likely grapple anyone without any issue, plus +5 strength checks) Which I picked, because you seem to be obsessed with concept of strength.
3. Mastery of Air (lot of goodies, but mainly getting it for cloak of air, which forces them to always attack you with disadvantage, and you can redirect their attacks on their own face), you can fluff that cloak of air as your rage mode.
4. Mastery of ice (soft control and +20 temporal hit points for 3 psi points by bonus action, not to mention wall and AoE attack).
5. Third Eye, since you love it so much. Honestly could be filled with far better choices.

So what we have here.
AC 19, who has theoretical temporal 380 hit points (if PSI using only on mastery of ice), enemy has disadvantage to hit to.
And once you hit with your psiblades you can trigger Knock Back. Which is 1d6 bludeoning damage per psi point spent, if your enemy hits the wall. If something that should look pretty awesome since you seem to enjoy power fantasy. Punching people to the walls. You could take one asi away and take that caster feat instead. Which means booming blage, Green flame and one spell of your choice (familiar would give you advantage to attacks). Meaning you can now force them to move so your booming blade triggers.

Difference to compared to your character...
Higher strength modifier. Higher AC, Potent Psionic unlocked (adds 1d8 extra psyhic damage to attacks), Can use 7 psi points to one skill, and has 57 psi points on total. Advantage on grappling checks. Attack and damage bonus for blades is +4 while you have merely +2. Meaning... that my total attack modifier is +13. Good luck missing anything with that.

While your strength is 18. Lower AC, no Potent psionic aka less damage. You can't use 7 psi points. You have only 3 psionic disciplines unlocked.

Compared to your character even with these restrictions you insists. My character is far superior. In fact things get just better after two levels when psionic mastery comes in. And once I hit the level 20. I'm are pretty much immortal.

[sightlessrealit]

"Alrighty, let have look at this and how much you'v wen't away from the restrictions I gave you."
That was not the build I was suppose to make. I simply stated clearly that what your purpose for your character is, can be done much better if you simply ignore whole multi-class. I stated this while waiting for your exact build without rolled stats and vampire buff.

"Hey look at that already going away from the restrictions. "
again... This is you ignoring that I haven't even made the character yet for you. Basically you're attacking strawman in here. I expect that rest of your comment is based on same strawman argument.

" I gave you restrictions on the build so that the two would properly be compared. "
Again, I were giving example that your whole build concept of having strength instead of dex was silly and far from optimal.

" Booming Blade?! Cool, so what? Most enemies don't flee & in darkness enemies are less likely to flee anyways. "
If you actually read your class, you would realize that there are skills which can make mystic FORCE his opponents to move. Not to mention, booming blade is good if you only have one attack. Switch that to green flame if you're obsessed over do they move or not.

Next you provide edgy picture of your character. If her strength is suppose to come from mystic powers. Then for far more reasons you should ignore strenght score and instead use Brute force discipline.

"Her Soul Knives have been fluffed & homebrewed to be metal blades that grow out on the side of her arms. "
Fluff that breaks the rules. It's no longer fluff at that point. Fluff is suppose to be something that has no affect on game mechanics. It would be fluff only if restriction of not using hands would still apply.

"Can Shadow blade be fluffed/homebrewed to do that?"
Literally everything can. There is nothing that prevents people from fluffing and homebrewing their stuff. Only problem you have with it is GM and other players in your party. Heck you could even "fluff" that paladin does necrotic damage instead of divine. Or that his smite comes out of his mouth instead of his weapon etc...

" For one arm perhaps, not two. Aka why Soul knife is being used. "
When it comes to homebrewring, you're already breaking the core game. You can homebrew spells as well.

"You can't fluff that with any mystic focus nearly as much as you can with a barbarian rage. "
Expect you can... Like mastery of force creates the mystic armor. Can easily be fluffed to make you look like super sayan if you so wish.

Seriously more I read your text the more horrible your whole concept becomes. So basically you made bad character just to roleplay some character which looks awesome in your eyes. Then you proceed to tell how awesome multiclassin is when you have broke several game's rules, and already are using homebrew version of mystic. Not to mentioning having ridicilously good stat rolls in beginning with and vampire. I'm sorry... but your build is horrible. It isn't optimal to anything, nor is it even versatile.

"Sword of Kas"
Is that mentioned somewhere in DM book? I really can't remember it being included in artifacts. Also this really looks like that you're having some sort of power fantasy and GM is giving you all sorts of goodies to make you appear as superman.


"Str18, Dex13, Con14, Int14, Wis11, Cha8"
So you are unarmored.
Let's see. Your mystic skills are almost pointless to use with that low int and your AC is 13. Graz... You're glass that is not even a canon.

"Let me guess you want to rage so hard cause Str is being prioritized over Dex."
Not raging, Simply stating that its a bad idea.

"Big woop."
With that AC you will get one shoted by most boss encounters. Heck even few goblins are deadly threat to you. Or do you happen to use medium armor? Girl in picture sure isn't.

So okay, now I will proceed to make you a LEGIT soul knives, carry stuff and third eye.
Also you didn't mention what disciplines you took... Seriously...

Okay Since you're obsessed making only close combat guy who's strength has to be higher than any other stat. Technically you said int, so I could still make dex 20, but I'm not going to since you clearly said that your intent is to play as a slow brute.
Stats: 20 Strength (asi twice, plus your bad feat), dex 14 (human start), Con 16(human start) Int 12, wisdom 8, cha 8

Wear medium armor provided by the soul knives discipline. AC purely will be 17.
Disciplines:
1. Bestial Form (grants +2 ac as bonus action, so AC will be 19)
2. Brute Force (grants advantage on Strength Athletic checks, meaning with you will most likely grapple anyone without any issue, plus +5 strength checks) Which I picked, because you seem to be obsessed with concept of strength.
3. Mastery of Air (lot of goodies, but mainly getting it for cloak of air, which forces them to always attack you with disadvantage, and you can redirect their attacks on their own face), you can fluff that cloak of air as your rage mode.
4. Mastery of ice (soft control and +20 temporal hit points for 3 psi points by bonus action, not to mention wall and AoE attack).
5. Third Eye, since you love it so much. Honestly could be filled with far better choices.

So what we have here.
AC 19, who has theoretical temporal 380 hit points (if PSI using only on mastery of ice), enemy has disadvantage to hit to.
And once you hit with your psiblades you can trigger Knock Back. Which is 1d6 bludeoning damage per psi point spent, if your enemy hits the wall. If something that should look pretty awesome since you seem to enjoy power fantasy. Punching people to the walls.

Difference to compared to your character...
Higher strength modifier. Higher AC, Potent Psionic unlocked (adds 1d8 extra psyhic damage to attacks), Can use 7 psi points to one skill, and has 57 psi points on total. Advantage on grappling checks. Attack and damage bonus for blades is +4 while you have merely +2. Meaning... that my total attack modifier is +13. Good luck missing anything with that.

While your strength is 18. Lower AC, no Potent psionic aka less damage. You can't use 7 psi points. You have only 3 psionic disciplines unlocked.

Compared to your character even with these restrictions you insists. My character is far superior. In fact things get just better after two levels when psionic mastery comes in. And once you hit the level 20. You are pretty much immortal.

I only have +2 Oh where oh where did you get that silly idea? Psi limit is only limited to Disciplines. Not for class abilities surely someone as min maxy as you are would know this? So no, no +2 but rather +4. Same for Wu jins actually, they can make level 5 spell slots at 6th. But my character goes 1 further by using Augmented Weapon on one of her Soul Knives it becomes a +7 as due to wording they stack. So what was that about a +2? Huh, huh? Can't hear you. So lets see, 7 + 4 + 4 = +15 yeah really good luck missing with that + Reckless. Oh boy look at that disadvantage go away for a normal + lethal strike which is superior to brute forces brute strike.

Oh looky cool Ac I can hit you just as well as you can hit me. Only most of your damage is halved. And knock back is garbo from brute force. because 1, saving means nothing happens and you have to hit & two if you do save you only take damage if you hit a wall or something similar.

[Tespri]

I only have +2 Oh where oh where did you get that silly idea? Psi limit is only limited to Disciplines. Not for class abilities surely someone as min maxy as you are would know this? So no, no +2 but rather +4. Same for Wu jins actually, they can make level 5 spell slots at 6th. But my character goes 1 further by using Augmented Weapon on one of her Soul Knives it becomes a +7 as due to wording they stack. So what was that about a +2? Huh, huh? Can't hear you. So lets see, 7 + 4 + 4 = +15 yeah really good luck missing with that + Reckless. Oh boy look at that disadvantage go away for a normal + lethal strike which is superior to brute forces brute strike.

Oh looky cool Ac I can hit you just as well as you can hit me. Only most of your damage is halved. And knock back is garbo from brute force. because 1, saving means nothing happens and you have to hit & two if you do save you only take damage if you hit a wall or something similar.

"I only have +2 Oh where oh where did you get that silly idea? Psi limit is only limited to Disciplines."
Pretty sure the idea is to limit it as well. However even in that case, you wouldn't be left with that many psi points compared to my build.

"Same for Wu jins actually, they can make level 5 spell slots at 6th."
Most DMs would actually limit both psionic knives and Wu jin according to the psi limit. Pretty sure that their intention was to limit as well but forgot to make it clear. As they had forgot to add action costs to some of the attacks.

"But my character goes 1 further by using Augmented Weapon on one of her Soul Knives it becomes a +7 as due to wording they stack."
Yes and? You can change pretty much any of those skills I have and put the augmented weapon instead of it. However that weapon demands concentration, Cloak of air is far better than extra 3 to the attack, since the likelyhood that you're going to miss anything with +13 is almost non-existant. At level 11 you can have both of them being used.

" Can't hear you. So lets see, 7 + 4 + 4 = +15 yeah really good luck missing with that + Reckless."
Reckless attack grants them advantage on you as well...

"Oh boy look at that disadvantage go away for a normal + lethal strike which is superior to brute forces brute strike. "
Meanwhile you're doing only 5d10 extra with lethal strike. And again, I repeat, you can switch any of the disciplines to that one. As I said before, you should've mentioned disciplines you use.

"Oh looky cool Ac I can hit you just as well as you can hit me. Only most of your damage is halved. And knock back is garbo from brute force. because 1, saving means nothing happens and you have to hit & two if you do save you only take damage if you hit a wall or something similar. "
If you were thinking this as PvP scenario then I would use different build. But as stated, my build is better. The fact that you left out your disciplines just proves that you're dishonest person. Since it shows that you had no intention to show what was purpose of your build.

For example with mastery of wood, my character could simply snipe you before you ever reach him. Or I will simply fly away. Or do 7d10 swipe at you which costs no action by the raw. Which means... You will have never chance to even hit me. Not to mention... the amount of extra hp this character has thanks to mastery of ice.

You know... The saddest part is, I actually took you with a good faith. But it seems that you simply want to turn this into some sort of trash talk festival.

PS: If you actually read those dispiclines, you would know that Air mastery gives resistance to attacks as well. And if I wish I could do 7d6 + 7d6 with whole strength mastery, which is in total more than 5d10. Learn to read skills before acting so arrogantly.

So can you name anything which makes that whole multi-classing worth it? Since you could have 5 disciplines instead of 3, and those 2 extra ones already cover everything you could get from your multi-class part.

Edit: Change ice to iron and you cannot even hit me ever. Since +20 ac and on reaction +7 more. While my character could just fly away or, simply kite you so your rage will end, then come back at you and do 14d6 damage at your face.

[sightlessrealit]

"I only have +2 Oh where oh where did you get that silly idea? Psi limit is only limited to Disciplines."
Pretty sure the idea is to limit it as well. However even in that case, you wouldn't be left with that many psi points compared to my build.

"Same for Wu jins actually, they can make level 5 spell slots at 6th."
Most DMs would actually limit both psionic knives and Wu jin according to the psi limit. Pretty sure that their intention was to limit as well but forgot to make it clear. As they had forgot to add action costs to some of the attacks.

"But my character goes 1 further by using Augmented Weapon on one of her Soul Knives it becomes a +7 as due to wording they stack."
Yes and? You can change pretty much any of those skills I have and put the augmented weapon instead of it. However that weapon demands concentration, Cloak of air is far better than extra 3 to the attack, since the likelyhood that you're going to miss anything with +13 is almost non-existant. At level 11 you can have both of them being used.

" Can't hear you. So lets see, 7 + 4 + 4 = +15 yeah really good luck missing with that + Reckless."
Reckless attack grants them advantage on you as well...

"Oh boy look at that disadvantage go away for a normal + lethal strike which is superior to brute forces brute strike. "
Meanwhile you're doing only 5d10 extra with lethal strike. And again, I repeat, you can switch any of the disciplines to that one. As I said before, you should've mentioned disciplines you use.

"Oh looky cool Ac I can hit you just as well as you can hit me. Only most of your damage is halved. And knock back is garbo from brute force. because 1, saving means nothing happens and you have to hit & two if you do save you only take damage if you hit a wall or something similar. "
If you were thinking this as PvP scenario then I would use different build. But as stated, my build is better. The fact that you left out your disciplines just proves that you're dishonest person. Since it shows that you had no intention to show what was purpose of your build.

For example with mastery of wood, my character could simply snipe you before you ever reach him. Or I will simply fly away. Or do 7d10 swipe at you which costs no action by the raw. Which means... You will have never chance to even hit me. Not to mention... the amount of extra hp this character has thanks to mastery of ice.

You know... The saddest part is, I actually took you with a good faith. But it seems that you simply want to turn this into some sort of trash talk festival.

PS: If you actually read those dispiclines, you would know that Air mastery gives resistance to attacks as well.

Hmm dishonest? I'm using the disciplines my character has when I stated what disciplines I had when i first posted the build? Seemed pretty obvious.
And you mean Misty Form where you can only dash as a action? Yes I'm well aware of it. So what, if I want to use that I'll do so on my level 8 Gestalt Open Hand Monk/Immortal Mystic I'm playing in another campaign. That character is much more optimized than this one but not to the point that all I take is "good" disciplines. And I won't knock Cloak of Air, it's a very strong ability for 3 psi & just a bonus action to cast. It helped me beat the Bear King which is a CR13 Monster from the "Tome of Beasts" from Kobold Press is a 1 on 1 match.
As for getting hit, I have 13AC most things are going to hit me anyways. Not that big a deal even if a crit happens. And it's only going to get better with one more barbarian level where I literally take half from everything but psychic. Which I could take a discipline that has a focus that gives resistance. Not that big a deal honestly.

[mgshamster]

Just because he has a light finesse weapon does not mean he has to use dex for it.

He could easily keep his fancy 1d8 light melee weapon and use strength on it.

It is like having a free, concealed, longsword that can be sneak attacked with that also does damage that ignored B/S/P resistance.

It is a perfectly viable build.

Do note that he wasn't arguing that the character isn't viable; he's arguing that it's not over-powered.

His argument in total is that multiclassing the mystic is not more powerful than straight classing the mystic, and therefore Multiclass isn't an OP option.

(Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what's going on)

[Tespri]

Hmm dishonest? I'm using the disciplines my character has when I stated what disciplines I had when i first posted the build? Seemed pretty obvious.
And you mean Misty Form where you can only dash as a action? Yes I'm well aware of it. So what, if I want to use that I'll do so on my level 8 Gestalt Open Hand Monk/Immortal Mystic I'm playing in another campaign. That character is much more optimized than this one but not to the point that all I take is "good" disciplines. And I won't knock Cloak of Air, it's a very strong ability for 3 psi & just a bonus action to cast. It helped me beat the Bear King which is a CR13 Monster from the "Tome of Beasts" from Kobold Press is a 1 on 1 match.
As for getting hit, I have 13AC most things are going to hit me anyways. Not that big a deal even if a crit happens. And it's only going to get better with one more barbarian level where I literally take half from everything but psychic. Which I could take a discipline that has a focus that gives resistance. Not that big a deal honestly.

"I'm using the disciplines my character has when I stated what disciplines I had when i first posted the build?"
Only discipline you stated was the third eye. I did double check your reply.
Also you never stated that it's PvP build.

" Yes I'm well aware of it. So what"
It means barbarian is pointless, since you get resistances through other means.

"That character is much more optimized than this one but not to the point that all I take is "good" disciplines. "
I bet with good rolls again and some werewolf bonuses included.

"As for getting hit, I have 13AC most things are going to hit me anyways."
again, my build was made for normal PvE activity. 13AC makes you liability to the team. In fact the gaming group where I play, you would've died about 20 times by now with that build. You won't survive if you fight against intelligent creature that knows how to react against barbarian rage.
"Not that big a deal even if a crit happens. And it's only going to get better with one more barbarian level where I literally take half from everything but psychic. "
With disciplines you can get even damage type immunity or resistance on reaction.

Anything provided by multiclassing can be provided through just leveling mystic normally, and you could be even stronger.

You do realize that the damage you do is pathetic and if you use your burst ability, you will run out of psi points very fast? Does your DM even include multiple encounters per day like DM book advices? Especially since that rage of yours need long rest in order to be restored. 2 rages per day isn't enough if DM is running the game according to what Wizard of the coasts tells them to.

Should I show you actually good mystic build that you cannot even compete with multiclassing? This means no restrictions.

[Tespri]

Do note that he wasn't arguing that the character isn't viable; he's arguing that it's not over-powered.

His argument in total is that multiclassing the mystic is not more powerful than straight classing the mystic, and therefore Multiclass isn't an OP option.

(Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what's going on)

Correct, but I don't think his build as viable either. 13AC, while being in melee... Isn't really good idea. 2 rages per long rest, won't last long in well build adventure. I'm pretty sure that only reason he survived with his build so far, is precisely because DM allowed him to roll his stats, which makes whole barbarian more worth it thanks to high dex and con to provide higher AC. Multi-classing generally is more harmful due to problem of stats. That is why people just dip 1 level to something.

[sightlessrealit]

"I'm using the disciplines my character has when I stated what disciplines I had when i first posted the build?"
Only discipline you stated was the third eye. I did double check your reply.
Also you never stated that it's PvP build.

" Yes I'm well aware of it. So what"
It means barbarian is pointless, since you get resistances through other means.

"That character is much more optimized than this one but not to the point that all I take is "good" disciplines. "
I bet with good rolls again and some werewolf bonuses included.

"As for getting hit, I have 13AC most things are going to hit me anyways."
again, my build was made for normal PvE activity. 13AC makes you liability to the team. In fact the gaming group where I play, you would've died about 20 times by now with that build. You won't survive if you fight against intelligent creature that knows how to react against barbarian rage.
"Not that big a deal even if a crit happens. And it's only going to get better with one more barbarian level where I literally take half from everything but psychic. "
With disciplines you can get even damage type immunity or resistance on reaction.

Anything provided by multiclassing can be provided through just leveling mystic normally, and you could be even stronger.

You do realize that the damage you do is pathetic and if you use your burst ability, you will run out of psi points very fast? Does your DM even include multiple encounters per day like DM book advices? Especially since that rage of yours need long rest in order to be restored. 2 rages per day isn't enough if DM is running the game according to what Wizard of the coasts tells them to.

Should I show you actually good mystic build that you cannot even compete with multiclassing? This means no restrictions.

By first post I meant the one where I presented my multi class build in the first place. Why would I use anything that wasn't in that post.
Yes and no Mystics have a large tool kit but they won't out barbarian the barbarian. Not unless they want to use a ton of concentration effects. At high levels. They can certainly boost them though. And as for the gm. He loves giving us curses and making 5-6 deadly encounters a day.

[Tespri]

By first post I meant the one where I presented my multi class build in the first place. Why would I use anything that wasn't in that post.
Yes and no Mystics have a large tool kit but they won't out barbarian the barbarian. Not unless they want to use a ton of concentration effects. At high levels. They can certainly boost them though. And as for the gm. He loves giving us curses and making 5-6 deadly encounters a day.

"Yes and no Mystics have a large tool kit but they won't out barbarian the barbarian."
They don't out do full barbarian class. But they do outdo someone who dips to barbarian.
Look mystic is generalist, it doesn't benefit that much at all from multi-classing. Since it already get's most of the general stuff from itself. However it cannot compete on other fields where people are more specialized (couple exception there).
Concentration effects isn't that bad when you can choose to have your profiency on con. Especially when Mobs have hard time to even hit you.
5-6 deadly encounters a day. Yeah... and now imagine your 13 ac multi-class character surviving that slaughter. My group doesn't have that many deadly encounters, but so far what I have seen, is that I have been constantly babysitting any player which AC is less than 15. In fact, without revivify skill, they would've rolled new characters almost every session. Anyway, your character is only usable because of the rolled stats. Which makes any character into beasts, and weird multi-classing somewhat viable due not being MAD anymore. Also remember, it's team game. It might very well be that your group is actually carrying you.

[sightlessrealit]

"Yes and no Mystics have a large tool kit but they won't out barbarian the barbarian."
They don't out do full barbarian class. But they do outdo someone who dips to barbarian.
Look mystic is generalist, it doesn't benefit that much at all from multi-classing. Since it already get's most of the general stuff from itself. However it cannot compete on other fields where people are more specialized (couple exception there).
Concentration effects isn't that bad when you can choose to have your profiency on con. Especially when Mobs have hard time to even hit you.
5-6 deadly encounters a day. Yeah... and now imagine your 13 ac multi-class character surviving that slaughter. My group doesn't have that many deadly encounters, but so far what I have seen, is that I have been constantly babysitting any player which AC is less than 15. In fact, without revivify skill, they would've rolled new characters almost every session. Anyway, your character is only usable because of the rolled stats. Which makes any character into beasts, and weird multi-classing somewhat viable due not being MAD anymore. Also remember, it's team game. It might very well be that your group is actually carrying you.

Yes, it is a team game & I won't knock my buddies in that particular group, well any of the group I play in.

There's me, the V-Human Rogue/Barbarian/Soulknife Mystic Eye's & the Damage/Tank(Yes tank)
The Tiefling Abjuration Wizard who provides Summons & Support
The Wood Elf Tranquility Monk, who gives heals & stun attempts
& The V-Human Wu jin Mystic, The Water/Ice User

We all play our parts and I can tell you this now, the person who plays the tiefling isn't the most happy with what my character can do and have expressed much multiple times. That being said the four of us all do our part. I take care of the bosses, the Tiefling summons demons to take out the mooks, The Monk heals & stuns when he can, the mystic does support.
In the last encounter we had before I got turned last sesh if it wasn't for my damage & the tiefling summoning demons the vampires we were fighting would have resulted in a tpk.

[furby076]

"Yes and no Mystics have a large tool kit but they won't out barbarian the barbarian."
They don't out do full barbarian class. But they do outdo someone who dips to barbarian.
Look mystic is generalist, it doesn't benefit that much at all from multi-classing. Since it already get's most of the general stuff from itself. However it cannot compete on other fields where people are more specialized (couple exception there).
Concentration effects isn't that bad when you can choose to have your profiency on con. Especially when Mobs have hard time to even hit you.
5-6 deadly encounters a day. Yeah... and now imagine your 13 ac multi-class character surviving that slaughter. My group doesn't have that many deadly encounters, but so far what I have seen, is that I have been constantly babysitting any player which AC is less than 15. In fact, without revivify skill, they would've rolled new characters almost every session. Anyway, your character is only usable because of the rolled stats. Which makes any character into beasts, and weird multi-classing somewhat viable due not being MAD anymore. Also remember, it's team game. It might very well be that your group is actually carrying you.


Dude. You're a saint. How you are dealing with this guys trash talk is amazing. I agree with your assessment.

Frankly for the most part, i think straight builds work better than MC (mostly)

Mind if i send you a build i made, for your thoughts? Obviously, you can say no :)

[furby076]

We all play our parts and I can tell you this now, the person who plays the tiefling isn't the most happy with what my character can do and have expressed much multiple times. That being said the four of us all do our part. I take care of the bosses, the Tiefling summons demons to take out the mooks, The Monk heals & stuns when he can, the mystic does support.
In the last encounter we had before I got turned last sesh if it wasn't for my damage & the tiefling summoning demons the vampires we were fighting would have resulted in a tpk.

Regarding your tieflings player, does that player (or anyone else in the group), get sword of kas type equipment, bonuses such as vampires, and custom rules that let them break class functions?

Btw, how does one use sword of kas and soul knife blades at same time?

[Jerrykhor]

Wow, you guys are arguing about that? (referring to the Soul knives mechanics) My DM allowed me to summon/dismiss the knives with no action or bonus action required, simply because drawing/sheathing mundane weapons is like this. Also, how can summoning blades with your mind be slower than physically drawing it?

Seriously, this is a small matter. I have watch stupid arguments on this, like some people are interpreting the text of Soul Knives as only summoning one blade just because it uses singular terms. Similarly pedantic and extremely stupid. The lack of common sense in some people never ceases to amaze.

Also, at some point people have to realize that their interpretation is not different, its just wrong. 'Can' is not the same as 'must'.

[sightlessrealit]

Regarding your tieflings player, does that player (or anyone else in the group), get sword of kas type equipment, bonuses such as vampires, and custom rules that let them break class functions?

Btw, how does one use sword of kas and soul knife blades at same time?

Yeah actually, we raided the vampires store the session prior to the last one. He got a sword will an eye in its hilt a book of vile darkness and a cloak of the bat. I can't remember what the mystic got and our monk friend wasn't present so we'll have to properly sort the stuff when things aren't so crazy.

She uses the sword of Kas duh.

[Tespri]

Yes, it is a team game & I won't knock my buddies in that particular group, well any of the group I play in.

There's me, the V-Human Rogue/Barbarian/Soulknife Mystic Eye's & the Damage/Tank(Yes tank)
The Tiefling Abjuration Wizard who provides Summons & Support
The Wood Elf Tranquility Monk, who gives heals & stun attempts
& The V-Human Wu jin Mystic, The Water/Ice User

We all play our parts and I can tell you this now, the person who plays the tiefling isn't the most happy with what my character can do and have expressed much multiple times. That being said the four of us all do our part. I take care of the bosses, the Tiefling summons demons to take out the mooks, The Monk heals & stuns when he can, the mystic does support.
In the last encounter we had before I got turned last sesh if it wasn't for my damage & the tiefling summoning demons the vampires we were fighting would have resulted in a tpk.
You stopped being tank the moment your AC is 13. I don't know how much experience you have in DnD but 13 AC is suicidal no matter can you rage or not. Heck otherwise most broken thing to play as would be druid multi-classing as barbarian. Reminder... Rage lasts only a minute (aka ten rounds) and you have only two of them per day. If you have 6 encounters and you're close combatant... You can't use your rage 6 times a day. The moment you run out of it, you're out of luck.
I assume that rest of your group has rolled their stats as well and given some powerful artifacts. Just saying... When whole group has good stats rolled, then every encounter has to be deadly in order to be some challenge. Done GM and once I did allow people to roll their stats... Never going to do that mistake again.

I still have small suspicion that game haven't been played according to the rule. Especially since so many homebrewing happening in your game. All in all... Your experience can't be used as evidence of mystic being powerful for multi-classing. As stated, rolled stats, homebrewing, breaking rules, artifacts/buffs granted by GM.

[Tespri]

Dude. You're a saint. How you are dealing with this guys trash talk is amazing. I agree with your assessment.

Frankly for the most part, i think straight builds work better than MC (mostly)

Mind if i send you a build i made, for your thoughts? Obviously, you can say no :)

Sure, go ahead. One part I love about mystics is because it allows people to try different sort of builds.

[Tespri]

Wow, you guys are arguing about that? (referring to the Soul knives mechanics) My DM allowed me to summon/dismiss the knives with no action or bonus action required, simply because drawing/sheathing mundane weapons is like this. Also, how can summoning blades with your mind be slower than physically drawing it?

Seriously, this is a small matter. I have watch stupid arguments on this, like some people are interpreting the text of Soul Knives as only summoning one blade just because it uses singular terms. Similarly pedantic and extremely stupid. The lack of common sense in some people never ceases to amaze.

Also, at some point people have to realize that their interpretation is not different, its just wrong. 'Can' is not the same as 'must'.

It's not mundane weapon... They are like wolverine's claws. They will come out of your fists. It's not simply same as unsheathing.

" Also, how can summoning blades with your mind be slower than physically drawing it?"
The fact that you grow them through magic? Yes psionic abilities are counted as magic.

Also in context of discussion, it was to point out that he shouldn't be allowed to grapple anyone while he has those knives. This will have impact on balance.
Yes can is not same as must. Which is why YOU DON'T NEED TO KEEP YOUR KNIVES FOREVER. They state that you CAN get rid of them voluntary by spending bonus action. Without that statement... You would be stuck with those knives forever.

[sightlessrealit]

Sure, go ahead. One part I love about mystics is because it allows people to try different sort of builds.

And yet you wanted to trash on someones build.

[Tespri]

And yet you wanted to trash on someones build.

It wasn't about trashing your build. It was to point out that your build is not what someone would call as powerful multi-class build. It's not powerful if you can do better by sticking to the full build. This conversation wasn't about builds but is Mystic OP. Build was simply side subject, since you claimed to have extremely powerful multi-class mystic build. So In order to address that multi-classing is not OP I needed to see your build. Which ended up showing that it's homebrew build with very well rolled stats. While showing that without those stats your survivality would be near to 0.

Edit: Also judging by this, it's very hard to tell how many rules have your GM altered and how he actually runs his games. In all honesty... I don't think he runs like typical GM, probably ignoring several rules and doing it easy for you guys. The fact that he allows multi-classing UA and homebrewing already points it out.

[sightlessrealit]

It wasn't about trashing your build. It was to point out that your build is not what someone would call as powerful multi-class build. It's not powerful if you can do better by sticking to the full build. This conversation wasn't about builds but is Mystic OP. Build was simply side subject, since you claimed to have extremely powerful multi-class mystic build. So In order to address that multi-classing is not OP I needed to see your build. Which ended up showing that it's homebrew build with very well rolled stats. While showing that without those stats your survivality would be near to 0.

Uh what? Where did you get that idea?
The only difference about the build with the point buy stats that would impact Combat at all was a -1 mod in strength as my character doesn't use saves anyways so the lower Int has little impact. You should have double checked the stat differences. So, no you didn't prove anything. My character would still function the same as it already has been doing. Even if we factor out the homebrew blades forming on arms rather than hands it still changes nothing.

But no you wanted to be an elitist and try to one up the character. The build you provided was hardly any better and would go down even easier.

[Tespri]

Uh what? Where did you get that idea?
The only difference about the build with the point buy stats that would impact Combat at all was a -1 mod in strength as my character doesn't use saves anyways so the lower Int has little impact. You should have double checked the stat differences. So, no you didn't prove anything. My character would still function the same as it already has been doing. Even if we factor out the homebrew blades forming on arms rather than hands it still changes nothing.

But no you wanted to be an elitist and try to one up the character. The build you provided was hardly any better and would go down even easier.

"The only difference about the build with the point buy stats that would impact Combat at all was a -1 mod in strength"
Nope, there are saving throws included. Plus since you're vampire. Your unarmored defense through being barbarian is up to the roof.
Also again... Homebrewing allowed, and GM giving powerful artifacts that early. In all honesty, I'm pretty sure that he is giving you guys easy time.

Elitists? Nothing in being elitists to demostrate that your build is sub-optimal

". The build you provided was hardly any better and would go down even easier."
Were talking about PvE game and you started to define my character according to PvP abilities. Worse... YOU COMPARED DISCIPLINES THAT WERE CHOSEN. Instead of what you would get from multi-classing. So you weren't showing any benefits that being barbarian or rogue would give. Also your whole build seems to be based on around using those. Which makes it unfair to restrict someone's own version of mystic with such arbitary and silly choices. I can show you true min max mystic that has that "edgy shadow lord guy" theme around it as well. Which beats you in PvP and PvE.

So again... The fact that you chose strenght over dex already tells a lot about how bad your character is.

Edit: In fact the combo you so proudly spoke off... Would already reduce half of your resources to nothingness.
7 to get +4.
5 To get +3
5 to get that 5d10
Plus rage
17 psi points on total from a guy who has only 32. I'll do math for you. You will be left with 15 psi points. Meaning... You can do this move of yours only twice a day. Unless you cheated and think that you gain psi points and rage by short rest.

So.... 5-6 deadly encounters? I don't think so.

Edit 2:
Plus go down easier? What? In PvE scenario I have around 380 hp and 21 Ac (bonus action to get that extra two) while forcing enemy to roll on disadvantage.
We can put up some encounter examples and see how well you will survive compared to beast like that. Again, PvP is not the name of the game.

[sightlessrealit]

"The only difference about the build with the point buy stats that would impact Combat at all was a -1 mod in strength"
Nope, there are saving throws included. Plus since you're vampire. Your unarmored defense through being barbarian is up to the roof.
Also again... Homebrewing allowed, and GM giving powerful artifacts that early. In all honesty, I'm pretty sure that he is giving you guys easy time.

Elitists? Nothing in being elitists to demostrate that your build is sub-optimal

". The build you provided was hardly any better and would go down even easier."
Were talking about PvE game and you started to define my character according to PvP abilities. Worse... YOU COMPARED DISCIPLINES THAT WERE CHOSEN. Instead of what you would get from multi-classing. So you weren't showing any benefits that being barbarian or rogue would give. Also your whole build seems to be based on around using those. Which makes it unfair to restrict someone's own version of mystic with such arbitary and silly choices. I can show you true min max mystic that has that "edgy shadow lord guy" theme around it as well. Which beats you in PvP and PvE.

So again... The fact that you chose strenght over dex already tells a lot about how bad your character is.

Issue with your argument here. My character has only just become a vampire which I've stated multiple times. The stat I'm referring to are the ones pre vampire which I've been playing for months. Not once has she fallen in combat. And the same would be said for the point buy on as again inly int is higher than the point buy one. Which matters little for the build as a whole.

[Arkhios]

Tespri and Sightlessrealit, maybe you should continue this debate of yours in private. The athmosphere in this thread is already rather toxic, no small part because of your debate which seems to have reached rather personal levels. I don't mean to be offensive. Just a reminder that either get the steam out of your systems in private, or calm down, before Mod Wonder comes and puts stop to the otherwise legitimate thread because of this inane "feud" you two seem to have going on.

[Tespri]

Issue with your argument here. My character has only just become a vampire which I've stated multiple times. The stat I'm referring to are the ones pre vampire which I've been playing for months. Not once has she fallen in combat. And the same would be said for the point buy on as again inly int is higher than the point buy one. Which matters little for the build as a whole.

Issue with your argument is that your whole campaign and all characters are homebrewed and allowed to roll stats. While your GM has shown a lot of leniency toward your group. You have no claim over your class being OP. You getting stuck to small details which are irrelevant. This clearly isn't about is Mystic OP or not anymore, this is clearly EGO issue for you.

"Not once has she fallen in combat"
Tank with 0 survivality skills. I don't buy it. Defiantly if those encouters were suppose to be on deadly level. Most deadly encounters would simply crush you. You have rage only 2 times a day. Meaning you can only use it in two encounters and most encounters take half of your hp away once they hit if they are on deadly.

Edit: One more thing. Creating psionic blades takes bonus action. going to berserk takes bonus action. Doing that psionic extra damage takes bonus action. Using that concentration ability takes bonus action.
In other words... It would take him 4 turns to have his set-up ready. This implies that he has been cheating in his game before. His build is terrible for action economy.

[Tespri]

Tespri and Sightlessrealit, maybe you should continue this debate of yours in private. The athmosphere in this thread is already rather toxic, no small part because of your debate which seems to have reached rather personal levels. I don't mean to be offensive. Just a reminder that either get the steam out of your systems in private, or calm down, before Mod Wonder comes and puts stop to the otherwise legitimate thread because of this inane "feud" you two seem to have going on.

He made it into feud by putting his ego in here. I'm still trying to focus on whetever mystic is OP or not, but he keeps putting his ego on the line. Which is why he complained about me being "elitists" for showing that his build is not even what one could even consider OP, but as sub-optimal instead

[Tespri]

Going to post something and bit edited from the private message. Since I want to show how powerful min maxed mystic can be.

Here is min-max build.

Level 9 Half-elf variant (high elf, taking cantrip boom blade), had natural darkvision and fey ancestry plus nice stat bonuses.
Strength 8
Dex 20 (bonus point) Asi twice
Con 14
Int 16(bonus point)
Wis 10
Cha 10

WuJin, spells: shadow blade, pick two other according to your taste, I personally prefer invisibility and disguiseself for sneaky time.
7 discipines
1. Mastery of Force. gives 14+ dex AC
2. Bestial Form for flying and +2 ac. In total AC should be now 21. That is on actual level of decent tank.
3. Iron durability (wood is better imo, heck even nomadic step is better, but this is for min max perspective) For that nice AC 22 and can impose +1-7 AC as reaction.
4. Mastery of Ice. Great control and those temp hit points.
5. Diminution, advantage on stealth checks and microscopic form gives +5 AC (can't make weapon attacks though if used)
6. Light and Shadow, wannanbe devils eye, darkness without concentration. You will have advantage and they will have disadvantage. Plus summons can be broken in certain encounters.
7. free choice, you can either go for more damage, more versatility, more control, More defense (adaptive body for elemental damage resistance/immunity) etc...

Results?
Well, you can do 4d8 with shadow blade when cast as level 5 spell.
at level 8 you gain extra 1d8 to attack damage. Meaning that 4d8 becomes 5d8.
Booming blade or green blade (booming is better since it fits role of tank better, it discourages enemy from moving) that will become 6d8 (+2d8 if enemy moves).
This is on normal attack without constantly wasting Psi points. Plus you have advantage in dim light or darkess, and can be used as ranged weapon. So in nutshell... This character actually does better damage than rogue, and is very tanky, while saving resources.

So you will have a guy who's AC is 22 (max 34). Potential hit points 340. Can impose disadvantage and has ways to get himself advantage.
In fact at that level could min max AC to 34 if you don't multi-class. Through diminution, iron durability, Mastery of force, and bestial form.
Does 6d8 +4 dex one per turn (less if using diminution at the time).

Not to mention that it has great control spells that can turn the tide by themselves alone. Now please tell me how is this multi-classed mystic superior to all the possibilities one could pull of by being pure mystic. I remind everyone reading... There is still room for one more discipline. Also for our MysticBearBarian friend over there who thinks only PvP scenarios... Your rage cannot resists the damage done by this character. Thanks to the fact that all damage is psyhic.

Edit: Also psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells. Meaning intent is that you cannot even use psionic disciplines while raging...

[Citan]

My character has several roles actually.
Let me ask you this though. Do you know about the barbarian rogue? If you have I wanted to take that combo and add mystic to the mix.
Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. Next, fun fact about the mystic. You aren't casting spells so raging + Psi abilities. Third eye is a character choice as is everything else but semi optimized to still be very strong.

The restrictions are as follows.
Soul knife, v human with brawny feat, higher str than int, & third eye

You can play your character however you want. But this just proves... Your character is not powerful. You have made sub-optimal build which does worse than pure mystic would. Heck... Worse than any pure classic class. My point was simply to show, that your claim of being powerful, is purely based on you getting lucky with rolled stats and GM allowing you to be vampire. Therefore, your opinion over how viable multi-classing to mystic would be based on your experience, is invalid. Especially since I did just demonstrate how pure mystic does the same things you want to do, far better than your multi-classed mystic. You literally nerfed your own character.


Barbarian rogue? You did put one dip of rogue and two of barbarian. Mystic isn't in the mix, it's more like that everything else is mixed with mystic. This isn't just one level dip to mystic to get something beneficial. I assume that you took two dips to barbarians to get advantage on all attacks. This is actually waste of levels, especially if you're a mystic.

"Soul knives, light finesse weapons that do a d8. Perfect for the barbarian rogue. "
No it's not. It's good for rogue, but not for barbarian who relies on strength.

So since you're not building a someone who grapples and brawls. The whole concept of brawler as a feat is pointless. In fact you cannot grapple when you're using your soul knives. You need free hand to grapple and soul knives take both hands from your usage. Worse... If you release one of the weapons, the both will disappear. Not only that but the weapon buff your mystic gets from soul knives, doesn't stack with any other weapon.

What it looks to me... Is that you wanted to build a rogue who get's easy advantages. You should just ditch barbarian in that case.
There are several problems with using strength instead of a dex and biggest one is that Dex is best stats in the whole game. It gives you AC, hit chance and damage. You have no reason to pick strength as soul knives. Taking strength means that you will become bad glass canon.

In fact you could make Wu jin or even soul knive that get's advantages all the time without putting any point to barbarian. Light and shadow gives you nerfed version of devilseye, and darkness spell that doesn't need concentration. Meaning you will attack with advantage and they will be with disadvantage.
Rogue for sneak attack damage? How about you instead put that brawler feat use magic initiate, pick a booming blade as cantrip (and something else).
Then be Wujin, and choose shadow blade as one of your wizard spells. At level 9 you will do 6d8 + dex and +2d8 (if target moves).
Not only that but shadow blade gives you advantage in darkness or dim light.

As Wu jin, your shadowy mystic assassin is actually much better than Soul knives. But even as Soul knives you don't need either barbarian or rogue in fact both of them limits badly how many talents you can have, which you really need since as soul knives you have 2 less than any other mystic.
With mastery of force you can get 14+ dex ac. Which if you min max your dex to 20 at level 8. You will have 19 ac + 2 if you take tough hide and +1 from wood/iron mastery.
Raging doesn't really add any damage at all to you. You get same amount of bonus by simply taking those attribute bonuses you get. And you almost never get hit anyway, and if you do mastery of ice guarantees that you have that 20 temp hitpoints.

You literally have no reason to take any level as rogue or barbarian.

Soo... I didn't plan on jumping in the middle originally, but your lasts posts Tespri made me change my mind.
YOU are the one, and only one, putting your ego in here: you have been overly agressive and, to put it simply, saying irrelevant things.

First you confuse Brawny with Tavern Brawler.
Then you say STR is useless on a Rogue/Barbarian, which is extremely brainless, as would show you all the threads about it that went into STR/DEX comparison already, concluding that STR was equally viable, but anyways. In short: 14 DEX is enough for AC (medium armor), Dex saves (advantage on saves and possibly Evasion at much later level), Initiative (advantage at later level). High STR is good for Shove/Grapple, weapon attacks (Rage AND Sneak Attack), but also freeing oneself from STR targeting effects that heavily restrict movement (or even avoid them in the first place).
Then you say that build is useless because you cannot Grapple with Soul knifes, apparently impervious to the fact that such a character has no reason to Grapple in the first place since he can either Reckless attack or Shove.
Then you conveniently put aside all the other things that Barbarian and Rogue levels bring: resistance to physical damage, expertise in another skill, a bit of extra damage. Or the fact that all that extra damage synergize well with Soul Knife's 6th level ability to recover some psi point when slaying a creature with spectral blades.
Then you purposefully don't consider that maybe (or rather probably) sightlessrealit planned on taking a few more levels in Barbarian and Rogue (like Barb 3 Bear, Rogue 2 for Cunning Action) further giving permanent enhancements.

Basically, you did trash talk without any actual argument to back it up, until that very last post. So who was the one displaying ego here?

Good job on finally being constructive and putting up a build though. ;) Gave me some motivation to go read Mystic.

But in the end, the actual difference between your single-class and his one is about 1st and 6th level feature from Order, two more disciplines, upper consumption cap, and 27 more psi points.
As far as discipline go, STR multiclass obviously don't have any use for Mastery of Force, nor Diminution (and it doesn't care since can have Expertise on Stealth) but could easily pick all the other ones so totally evening the comparison on that aspect. Plus your build really takes advantage of Booming Blade, which is a great idea, but basically reduce your build to either Variant Elf or Variant Human (Magic Initiate).

So in the end if you really wanna make your point, make a comparison pertaining efficiency of 3*(Rage+SneakAttack+SoulKnife extra damage) and the Booming Blade with upcast Shadow Blade, taking the number of rages as a reference for comparison, against an AC 17+ target that has +9 to hit, multiattack, dealing at least average 25 damage on each attack (kinda random numbers I'm sorry, better take an official creature from MM but no book right now. Anyone feel free to suggest creatures ;)).

We'll read it with interest, no doubt about it. ;)

[Tespri]

Soo... I didn't plan on jumping in the middle originally, but your lasts posts Tespri made me change my mind.
YOU are the one, and only one, putting your ego in here: you have been overly agressive and, to put it simply, saying irrelevant things.

First you confuse Brawny with Tavern Brawler.
Then you say STR is useless on a Rogue/Barbarian, which is extremely brainless, as would show you all the threads about it that went into STR/DEX comparison already, concluding that STR was equally viable, but anyways. In short: 14 DEX is enough for AC (medium armor), Dex saves (advantage on saves and possibly Evasion at much later level), Initiative (advantage at later level). High STR is good for Shove/Grapple, weapon attacks (Rage AND Sneak Attack), but also freeing oneself from STR targeting effects that heavily restrict movement (or even avoid them in the first place).
Then you say that build is useless because you cannot Grapple with Soul knifes, apparently impervious to the fact that such a character has no reason to Grapple in the first place since he can either Reckless attack or Shove.
Then you conveniently put aside all the other things that Barbarian and Rogue levels bring: resistance to physical damage, expertise in another skill, a bit of extra damage. Or the fact that all that extra damage synergize well with Soul Knife's 6th level ability to recover some psi point when slaying a creature with spectral blades.
Then you purposefully don't consider that maybe (or rather probably) sightlessrealit planned on taking a few more levels in Barbarian and Rogue (like Barb 3 Bear, Rogue 2 for Cunning Action) further giving permanent enhancements.

Basically, you did trash talk without any actual argument to back it up, until that very last post. So who was the one displaying ego here?

Good job on finally being constructive and putting up a build though. ;) Gave me some motivation to go read Mystic.

But in the end, the actual difference between your single-class and his one is about 1st and 6th level feature from Order, two more disciplines, upper consumption cap, and 27 more psi points.
As far as discipline go, STR multiclass obviously don't have any use for Mastery of Force, nor Diminution (and it doesn't care since can have Expertise on Stealth) but could easily pick all the other ones so totally evening the comparison on that aspect. Plus your build really takes advantage of Booming Blade, which is a great idea, but basically reduce your build to either Variant Elf or Variant Human (Magic Initiate).

So in the end if you really wanna make your point, make a comparison pertaining efficiency of 3*(Rage+SneakAttack+SoulKnife extra damage) and the Booming Blade with upcast Shadow Blade, taking the number of rages as a reference for comparison, against an AC 17+ target that has +9 to hit, multiattack, dealing at least average 25 damage on each attack (kinda random numbers I'm sorry, better take an official creature from MM but no book right now. Anyone feel free to suggest creatures ;)).

We'll read it with interest, no doubt about it. ;)

"Soo... I didn't plan on jumping in the middle originally, but your lasts posts Tespri made me change my mind.
YOU are the one, and only one, putting your ego in here: you have been overly agressive and, to put it simply, saying irrelevant things. "
overly agressive? My ego? Nope, if you actually read you can see that reaction from him. As you can see him never actually addressing arguments I had made while constantly making personal attacks.

"First you confuse Brawny with Tavern Brawler."
It should be fair misunderstanding since UA isn't always allowed in different campaigns. Also why does the confusion matter? They both work in similar manner, try to give you bonus to grapple.

"Then you say STR is useless on a Rogue/Barbarian, which is extremely brainless"
I said that DEX is far superior, especially since he was MYSTIC By main. It's not brainless if you actually understand that DEX is the best stat in this edition.

" concluding that STR was equally viable"
Concluding? What? Stregnht doesn't grant you saving throw against most of the spells in the game. Strength doesn't give you better initiative, Strength doesn't increase your AC. Strenght is only for athletic checks and damage for attack/strength weapons.

" High STR is good for Shove/Grapple"
Both pointless actions. You're wasting turn doing either of those, and HE CAN'T BY RAW do grapple since he needs free hand. Also as mystic he has far better options for control than grapple or shove.

"! In short: 14 DEX is enough for AC (medium armor)"
He refuses to wear armor. Also 17 armor for melee character is still disappointing. Especially since can't wear a shield.

"weapon attacks (Rage AND Sneak Attack"
You do realize that Dex helps with weapon attacks as well?

" but also freeing oneself from STR targeting effects that heavily restrict movement"
You're mystic... Pretty much nothing can restrict your movement. Also DEX save helps on majority of those as well. You know acrobatic check helps against grapple as well.

"Then you say that build is useless because you cannot Grapple with Soul knifes, apparently impervious to the fact that such a character has no reason to Grapple in the first place since he can either Reckless attack or Shove."
Why would you even bother to shove? He is wasting action and feat to something that pointless. May I remind you... It takes action from him. He has no multiple attacks.

"Then you conveniently put aside all the other things that Barbarian and Rogue levels bring: resistance to physical damage, expertise in another skill, a bit of extra damage."
I did not do such thing. I did address that, and pointed it out as a huge issue in fact.
First of all, barbarian rage demands bonus action (getting psi knives also takes bonus action, doing bonus damage with them as well). So action economy is already screwed up. Then I mentioned that he can only rage TWICE in a day. Meaning if there are more than 2 encounters, then he is screwed. Also he had only one level in rogue, keep that in mind.

"Or the fact that all that extra damage synergize well with Soul Knife's 6th level ability to recover some psi point when slaying a creature with spectral blades."
Useless ability unless you're fighting goblins all the time, and level 9 character most likely meets bigger threats than that. Plus you're forgetting that it's a team game. Likely hood of you getting all the kills is very slim.

"Then you purposefully don't consider that maybe (or rather probably) sightlessrealit planned on taking a few more levels in Barbarian and Rogue (like Barb 3 Bear, Rogue 2 for Cunning Action) further giving permanent enhancements.
"
Then you purposefully ignored that I pointed out that in two levels as pure mystic, he could reach one of the best skills mystics have. Which is those special psi points that allow you to have multiple concentration skills same time.
Barbbear and rogue 2 doesn't give anything that he actually benefits. More resistance which he can only use twice a day (zero times if intelligent opponents), and cunning action doesn't fit to his action economy.

" Basically, you did trash talk without any actual argument to back it up, until that very last post. So who was the one displaying ego here?"
I did counter every argument he made. He started the trash talk. I'm even now very surprised how civil I have been after all that he threw in here.

"But in the end, the actual difference between your single-class and his one is about 1st and 6th level feature from Order, two more disciplines, upper consumption cap, and 27 more psi points."
Two disciplines already grants you lot of versatility, as I already explained. In fact you're ignoring things I mentioned. Upper consumption cap means that you can "cast" higher level of spells, aka more powerful one. 27 psi points means that you can have more resources. Not only that, but you ignored the ability modifier added to talents and extra 1d8 to weapon attacks. Not only that, but extra attribute point or feat. These all are extremely powerful differences.
You're being dishonest in here, especially since I mentioned that extra damage and you ignored it.

"(and it doesn't care since can have Expertise on Stealth)"
Advantage on stealth checks, not only that but higher AC and +5 to Stealth, while making you so small that you can actually hide on plainsight in many places. Your expertise is nothing compared to that.

"Plus your build really takes advantage of Booming Blade, which is a great idea, but basically reduce your build to either Variant Elf or Variant Human"
It still does large amount of damage even without booming blade. Also both variant half-elf and variant human are strong picks for any class. Which btw... Your friend over here is already playing.

"against an AC 17+ target that has +9 to hit, multiattack"
Expect here is the problem. You're trying to create ideal situation for his character, while ignoring that my character doesn't spend his resources as fast as he does, and is more fit for multiple-different encounters. As DM book mentioned there should be more than 1-2 encounters per day. On general people think about 4 encounters. This means he has rage available only for one per encounter (can be even less depending on foe). Not only that, but action economy doesn't support his character at all. Takes too long to make setup.

So if you want me to prove why his character is bad even when compared to PURE CLASS from vanilla? I can show how much more powerful pure Cleric or Paladin can be as well. His character is terrible.
Lot of skills that don't have synergy. Action economy is in conflict, Resources run short fast. Feat that serves no purpose. Heck he could've just put expertise on athletics... Why even max out strength when you could have maxed out DEX instead to have superior AC and saving throws? While still having same attack and damage.

So for argument sake, I can show you how much better just normal class can be than either my min max mystic or his silly multi-class one.

Edit: After 1-2 encounters, he will be as useful as level 1 rogue.

Edit2: Fun fact, as pure mystic he could actually double the damage output he does...

[Citan]

"Then you say STR is useless on a Rogue/Barbarian, which is extremely brainless"
I said that DEX is far superior, especially since he was MYSTIC By main. It's not brainless if you actually understand that DEX is the best stat in this edition.

" concluding that STR was equally viable"
Concluding? What? Stregnht doesn't grant you saving throw against most of the spells in the game. Strength doesn't give you better initiative, Strength doesn't increase your AC. Strenght is only for athletic checks and damage for attack/strength weapons.

" High STR is good for Shove/Grapple"
Both pointless actions. You're wasting turn doing either of those, and HE CAN'T BY RAW do grapple since he needs free hand. Also as mystic he has far better options for control than grapple or shove.

"! In short: 14 DEX is enough for AC (medium armor)"
He refuses to wear armor. Also 17 armor for melee character is still disappointing. Especially since can't wear a shield.

"weapon attacks (Rage AND Sneak Attack"
You do realize that Dex helps with weapon attacks as well?

" but also freeing oneself from STR targeting effects that heavily restrict movement"
You're mystic... Pretty much nothing can restrict your movement. Also DEX save helps on majority of those as well. You know acrobatic check helps against grapple as well.

"Then you conveniently put aside all the other things that Barbarian and Rogue levels bring: resistance to physical damage, expertise in another skill, a bit of extra damage."
I did not do such thing. I did address that, and pointed it out as a huge issue in fact.
First of all, barbarian rage demands bonus action (getting psi knives also takes bonus action, doing bonus damage with them as well). So action economy is already screwed up. Then I mentioned that he can only rage TWICE in a day. Meaning if there are more than 2 encounters, then he is screwed. Also he had only one level in rogue, keep that in mind.

Advantage on stealth checks, not only that but higher AC and +5 to Stealth, while making you so small that you can actually hide on plainsight in many places. Your expertise is nothing compared to that.

"Plus your build really takes advantage of Booming Blade, which is a great idea, but basically reduce your build to either Variant Elf or Variant Human"
It still does large amount of damage even without booming blade. Also both variant half-elf and variant human are strong picks for any class. Which btw... Your friend over here is already playing.

"against an AC 17+ target that has +9 to hit, multiattack"
Expect here is the problem. You're trying to create ideal situation for his character, while ignoring that my character doesn't spend his resources as fast as he does, and is more fit for multiple-different encounters. As DM book mentioned there should be more than 1-2 encounters per day. On general people think about 4 encounters. This means he has rage available only for one per encounter (can be even less depending on foe). Not only that, but action economy doesn't support his character at all. Takes too long to make setup.

So if you want me to prove why his character is bad even when compared to PURE CLASS from vanilla? I can show how much more powerful pure Cleric or Paladin can be as well. His character is terrible.
Lot of skills that don't have synergy. Action economy is in conflict, Resources run short fast. Feat that serves no purpose. Heck he could've just put expertise on athletics... Why even max out strength when you could have maxed out DEX instead to have superior AC and saving throws? While still having same attack and damage.

So for argument sake, I can show you how much better just normal class can be than either my min max mystic or his silly multi-class one.

Edit: After 1-2 encounters, he will be as useful as level 1 rogue.

Edit2: Fun fact, as pure mystic he could actually double the damage output he does...
Ok, I finally have some time to answer to this.

First: I was not suggesting an "ideal situation" for the character. If I had that wish, I would have instead suggested lots of archers or minions surrounding the character: because as high as your AC may go, you will still get hit on a natural 20. So comparing two guys with the same high AC and thus same successful hits, damage resistance will make a big difference. Plus concentration checks, which are far more important for you since you use Shadow Blade. And by the way, monsters that a level 9-party face are more often above 15 AC than under, with many ones guys having 17-18 at past CR 8-9 (of course you don't fight dozens of these normally ^^).

Second: I don't know where you got that that guy didn't want to wield armor, but that's his own personal choice, it does not change the fact that he has the potential to do so. In the same manner, I don't where where he is supposed to have given the detail of the disciplines he chose, so for the sake of argument we can consider he took the ones most useful for his character.
The claim you made is "Barb 2 / Rogue 1 / Mystic 6 with Soul Knife is trash". Let's keep it at that.

Third: saying that STR is useless or DEX is the best attribute is extremely reductive, and borderline stupid: Constitution effects can cripple you fast, Strength effects can restrain you in many different manners, Wisdom effects can turn you against your enemies or at least make you useless for a (few) turn(s)... Also STR affects weight, so loot, and a few other things that are actually important in a proper game, but I know many DM waive these aspects so maybe that's why you don't see its usefulness. Anyways...
You say that nothing can stop a Mystic's mobility, but considering you are cleary considering STR trash, I don't expect you to either put any point into the attribute or using Strength of Mind to get save proficiency.
STR targeting spells are not as common as WIS or DEX spells, but most of them deprive you of all mobility on a failed save or check.
Sure, there are many disciplines as a Mystic that give you counters or escapes from those, but you need to have chosen to learn them, and still have psi points available for them.

As for "Shove / Grapple is useless": well, that's the difference of view between teamplayers and egocentrical players. Choose your team. :)
More seriously though, without know exactly what his party is composed of, there is no way to say whether it would be useful or not. And provided you have several melee pals in your group, putting someone prone may be far useful that damage, as high as that damage may be.

Fourth: OP's build has two attacks once he got his rage and other things up. So, yeah, it can take up to two turns to unleash the full power of his build, so if the encounter lasts 3 rounds it's a net loss: then again, it means it was a fairly easy fight, so why then use all big resources for that in the first place?
Using scarce resources means hard fight, meaning at least 6-7 rounds or maybe more. Otherwise, player is wasting resources: it's not a build problem, it's a management problem.

Five: Stealth "your expertise is nothing compared to that": except that Expertise is on, always. You may not find it a big benefit, I do. To each his own taste. Plus it's not that rare to have someone with Pass Without Trace in a party.

Six: "my build does strong damage even without Booming Blade": errr: no, sorry. Good damage sure, but not above what an optimized caster ( especially when you see to many other good 3th, 4th and 5th level spells they have) or martial may do (except maybe Rogue without Booming Blade).

Seven: you purposelly undersell the guy's efficiency compared to yours.
On that note...
"potential 340 HP": nop, definitely not: considering you want to cast Shadow Blade as a 5th level spell as your go-to tactic, that means for at least once every encounter (barring the bad luck of early broken concentration), that's already 7*6= 42 points to substract from your total of 57 points.
That's, you know, why I suggest you made a comparison on par with Barbarian, so supposing only two big encounters for the day, which seems more reasonable to me because as I said, why spend big resources on a small fight? So I'll be fair for you and instead say you will consume 3*5th level slots over a day (third one covering "fight-that-appeared-big-but-was-small" or "oops-bad-luck-on-that-concentration-save") so 57-21=36. Which is the actual pool for every other thing, including "flat +1-7 AC as a reaction" (Iron Hide) "flat +5 AC as reaction" (Shield -which by the way makes your choice of Iron Hide pretty redundant, even if the latter lasts longer, Shield has a much better ROI), Iron Resistance (oops, sorry, it's concentration, so you have to choose between damage and resistance), Bestial Form (which other player can have to, and will certainly be pushed back as a higher level in final version because OP for that level) etc.
And you have nothing special to write home about accuracy wise: just the +5 from DEX and +4 from proficiency. I mean, it's definitely enough against medium AC, but not against more AC.


Eight: to geet into the heart of things, what can the tri-class do?
Now other player can have...
1. Every encounter:
- 19 AC (medium armor + Bestial form) or 21 AC (medium armor + shield + bestial form): obviously not as high as you, but pretty decent nonetheless. Add to that +2 AC as bonus action if needed.
- 1d8 light finesse weapons allowing dual-wielding, no action required most of the time (yeah, sorry, but there is no time limit on those, so there is NO reason why an adventurer exploring an hostile area would not keep them ready at all times if these are its main way of attacking).
- +1-2-4 to attack and damage rolls of his weapon attacks, without action, for 10mn, which he can do up to 16-6-4 times with his 32 pp pool provided it was its only use and he had no way to regain ki points... Except its current limit of instant spend is 5 psi, so +2.
- He could also pick Giant Growth to further increase his damage, although for a cost, 2 psi > 1d4 or 7 psi > 2d4 as a bonus action. Except 7 is out.
- Or use Bestial Claw (which is also broken the way it is written, enjoy it while it's UA).
- Or Aura Sight to quickly understand how much damage need to be dealt to a kind of creature, although it does eat a bonus action. :)
- Or Nomadic Arrow, to imbue a normal dagger (which is a finess weapon that can be thrown so explicitely
works) to get another attack per turn.
- Or Psionic Weapon, which can stack with ethereal blades (although since player has max STR and not INT that would actually harm is damage total, but also means he's fine against physical resistant enemies). "Worse", you could pick Augmented Weapon as an alternative for Nomadic Arrow (although I prefer the latter).
- +1d6 from Sneak Attack.
- advantage on all attacks whenever he wants.

2. Two encounters per long rest: resistance to physical damage, advantage on STR checks, +2 damage.

And, let's not forget every time he slays a creature with his blades he regains 2 psi points.

So he can, at the very least, every encounter of the day...
- Go for Soul Knife dual-wielding: two weapon attacks (dual wielding) each having an extra +2 to hit (Hone Blade), + advantage to hit (Reckless Attack), dealing 1d8 + 5 (STR) + 2 (Hone Blade) + 1d4 (Giant Growth) + 10 feet reach bonus (Giant Growth focus + Ogre form). Which also makes him adept at shoving (and potentially grappling if he dismisses a weapon) large creatures.
- Or go for Soul Knife + Nomadic Arrow dagger: getting a third attack in the process (of course, you have to choose the right attack if you want to get the "regain psi" benefit, but that's a nice way to deal damage while closing in).
- Or go for the more defensive build, single Soul Knife or Augmented Weapon + shield + Ogre form, using one of the disciplines that give "bonus action extra damage" to make nova strikes.

Let's go with the soul-knife dual-wielding since that seems to be player's go-to tactic.
He spends a total of 5 (Hone Weapon) + 5 (Ogre form) preparing while he Dashes/Dodges in in first turn.
He has now +5+4+2 = +11 to hit bonus, plus advantage, plus 15 reach (meaning he won't fear any creature's retaliation when pulling back).
Against an AC 13 creature, he has 99% chance to hit, compared to your build (85%).
Against an AC 18 creature, he has 91% chance to hit, compared to your build (60%).
Provided both attacks hit, he will deal an average of 2*(1d8+5+2+1d4)+1d6 = 2*14+3.5 = 31.5.
Ops, let's remove the 5, no Fighting Style. So 26.5.

Let's compare to a pure dual-wielding non-raging Barbarian: 3*(1d8+5)-5 (again, no Fighting Style): 23.5.
To a pure dual-wielding Fighter: 28.5.
To a pure dual-wielding Rogue: 1d6+5+1d6+5*1d6 = 7d6+5 = 29.5.
To a Hexblade warlock using booming blade: 1d8+5+1d8 = 14.
To a caster using Booming Blade with Shadow Blade as 5th level: 2d8+5+4d8 = 14+18=32.

"So, you see? his build is clearly inferior".
Except that, contrarily to others...
HE has an insane chance to hit, that he can maintain every encounter, ensuring he can regain at the very very least 4 psi points per encounter, unless his friends make a point of trolling him by finishing off every enemy he targets. On the contrary, with a bit of help, he has a far from null chance to regain all psi points spent on preparation.
HE can put a nasty nova damage thanks to Bestial Claws, although it's costly (Bestial Form would break hell loose with a Hexblade dip by the way IIRC extra damage apply on all forms of attack).
HE can easily take care of flying creatures (including the large ones) and put them on the ground, greatly helping friends, by combining Bestial Form (because Fly effect is no-concentration -another OP thing-) and Ogre Form. Or make some Final Fantasy jump move on ground creatures for the classy aspect.
HE can use Reckless Attack more often than normal Barbarians because the extra reach spares him movement and potential attacks.
HE can easily make STR checks that would be otherwise impossible, even for Barbarian (because of size requirements).
HE can be a party-large mount thanks to Ogre Form and Bestial Form (you can too ;), this is a Mystic greatness).
When party knows a bit the kind of danger they will face, he can (as you) switch WIS saves for CON saves or DEX saves, in which he gets good enough thanks to advantage and proficiency.

When things get hairy (biggest fights), he can get very resilient thanks to armor proficiencies, shield and bonus action Soul Knife, as well as Rage resistance.
And he has more skills than you, can take care of party loot or carrying someone when needed.

"Edit: After 1-2 encounters, he will be as useful as level 1 rogue."
"Edit2: Fun fact, as pure mystic he could actually double the damage output he does..."
I think that confronting this sentence with all I exposed is enough to show how much narrow-minded you are: damage is not the key to everything at all (and hopefully, otherwise this game would be damningly bland and boring to play)...


So to sum this up...
* Is a pure Mystic build better than his? Probably, in part because you can spend 7 ki at once for "too powerful for that level effects", in part because most of Mystic is badly broken overpowered in the first place in how you get every aspect you'd like covered with free choice of Disciplines (although it does eat quickly into psi) and how many buffs you can stack without sweating (precisely the thing that they tried to prevent with concentration up until now). So you can focus on damage one fight, then focus on defense another, then control on a third, as long as your psi pool lasts.
But even that guess could be showed wrong depending on your party composition and the opposing force.
* Could his build be improved? Yeah, for sure, in many ways.
* Is his build trash? Not by far, and only your ego prevents you to see that.

His build is very functional, versatile, and, contrarily to a pure Mystic build, much more predictable and thus much less susceptible to cause headache to DM or allies because of the apparent imbalance of many Mystic discipline features (like 20 THP for 3 psi points, or non-concentration fly, or non-concentration terrain effects, or no-limit extra attacks)...
Which is normal because when playtesting something WoTC artificially pushes "down" many high level features to test them early...
Although I don't understand the logic: just make a game starting high-level and you're set is my view. ^^ But I guess I missed something that motivates them to use this strategy instead, like, maybe, not only check the raw power of an ability but also the power curve as you progress...