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Kas Ba’alphegos
2017-10-26, 12:37 PM
This was my first try at homebrewing an archetype/class/etc. I had recently convinced my brother to play D&D again in 5th. Last time he played was in 3.5 and he really wanted to play a shadowdancer again. With no real equivalent for rogue out yet, this is my attempt to provide that.

Any suggestions, questions, comments, and critiques are more than welcome.
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5e Shadowdancer Rogue

Rogue Variation (11):
[Level 11: Extra attack instead of reliable talent]
- The player was wanting a more “stabby” experience than a skills based one, and Fighters get their second extra attack at this level so it seemed appropriate.

Archetype Features (3, 9, 13, 17):


Magic of Shadows:
At 3rd level when you choose this archetype, you learn the cantrips:

Prestidigitation
Shadow Jab

You launch a small tendril of shadow that strikes out at an enemy. As a bonus action, make a spell attack roll against a target you can see within 60ft.

- On a hit, the target takes 1d10 + half your rogue level (rounded down) of necrotic damage and must make a Wisdom save.

- If it fails the save, it has disadvantage on it’s next attack as shadows linger in the wound.


Shifting Shadow:
At 3rd level, you can briefly flicker into a shadowy form.


Whenever you use the disengage action, you ignore difficult terrain and have resistance to charm and fear effects.

- Also, once per short rest, when you use the uncanny dodge feature you may choose to gain a bonus to your AC equal to your WIS modifier until your next turn.


Shadow Stride:
At 6th level when you choose this archetype, you can travel between shadows.


As a bonus action, when you are in dim light or darkness, you can magically teleport up to 120 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness.

- Additionally, you may cast Misty Step or Gaseous Form, a number of times equal to half your rogue level (rounded down) per long rest.


Phantasmal Presence:
At 13th level, you can exude shadows and darkness.


You may cast Phantasmal Killer once per short rest.


Shadow Strike:

At 17th level, you can use your victims shadow against them.



Three times per long rest, choose a creature that you can see within 60ft, as an action you immediately teleport adjacent to the target. It then makes a DEX save against your spell save DC. (8+Proficiency+WIS)

- On a failed save, you deal Necrotic Damage equal to your sneak attack die + your WIS mod. (ex. 13th level is 7d6 + WIS)

- On a successful save, they take half damage.

- Additionally, whenever you reduce an enemy to zero hit points with this ability, you can use it again immediately.


[10/26/17] Original Post Date
[9/28/18] Update #5: Total overhaul of most, if not all the abilities. This subclass has gone through several iterations, and any comments before 2018 are not aimed towards the current build. (Also, at this point all of the other update notes are fairly irrelevant so I took them out. If you're interested for some reason, I do have them on a google doc still.)

cogsworther
2017-10-26, 02:42 PM
Well, I like the concept and execution overall, but the Shadow Stride ability seems broken.

Since Rogues get their Sneak Attack damage anytime they have advantage, a Shadowdancer could expect to reliably get Sneak Attack damage every turn so long as the lights were down low.

That seems a little too powerful. Even the Assassin archetype, an archetype focused on prioritizing Sneak Attack Damage, doesn't get an ability that useful.

I would recommend using the Shadow Stride ability as a way to increase mobility. 60 feet of perfectly silent movement in a single round is nothing to scoff at.

Kas Ba’alphegos
2017-10-26, 04:10 PM
@cogsworther


Well, I like the concept and execution overall, but the Shadow Stride ability seems broken.

Since Rogues get their Sneak Attack damage anytime they have advantage, a Shadowdancer could expect to reliably get Sneak Attack damage every turn so long as the lights were down low.

That seems a little too powerful. Even the Assassin archetype, an archetype focused on prioritizing Sneak Attack Damage, doesn't get an ability that useful.

I would recommend using the Shadow Stride ability as a way to increase mobility. 60 feet of perfectly silent movement in a single round is nothing to scoff at.

Great point! How about 1.) making it an action, and 2.) instead give advantage on stealth checks until end of turn?

Or 3.) I could make it melee only on the shadow stride and only apply advantage if the attack is from shadows or dim light?

Thanks for the comment and compliment!

Lalliman
2017-10-27, 03:39 AM
This seems like a fun class, for those who want to shadow monk without being a monk.

It's very complicated though, lots of bookkeeping, whereas the other rogue archetypes are all very clean and simple. Aside from the Arcane Trickster's spells, the rogue deliberately avoids features that require resource management. This archetype adds SIX of those. Very annoying, if you ask me.

I would suggest a few careful reworks.

1. Get rid of the "X times per rest" mechanics as much as possible. Suggestions for that are given below.

2. If one of your mechanics is similar to an existing one, make it conform to that one, unless you have a strong reason not to. For one, chances are that WotC has already figured out how to make it convenient and balanced. For two, having two thematically identical abilities with different mechanics is jarring. I'm talking about Shadow Stride here.

3. Make sure to compare your feature with those of the core archetypes, not just in terms of power but in terms of function. There's usually a pattern to the features gained at various levels. In case of the rogue, that's:
3rd level: Archetype-defining feature
9th level: Utility feature or minor combat boost
13th level: Utility feature or minor combat boost
17th level: Major combat boost

Yours currently doesn't match that. It's more like:
3rd: Minor combat boost that isn't archetype-defining at all
9th level: Archetype-defining feature
13th level: Minor combat boost
17th level: Major combat/utility boost

Consider if you can get Shadow Stride online earlier, since that's the real reason to take this archetype. It doesn't strike me as wholly unreasonable for the Shadow Dancer to get it earlier than the Shadow Monk.

Anyways, here's some more thoughts on the individual features.

First, the Extra Attack variant. It... doesn't seem horribly broken actually. Just remember that Sneak Attack can only occur once per round. And keep in mind that this greatly encourages ranged rogues over dual-wielding rogues.
(As an aside, the monk does not gain Extra Attack at level 11. You're probably thinking of a homebrewed version.)

Magic of Shadows: Why the limited uses? They're cantrips. Arcane Trickster gets three of them at the same level, and likely better ones than Prestidigitation. Just treat them as what they are.

Shadow Jab: No range is listed, nor what the spellcasting ability score is (though I can extrapolate that it's Wisdom). It's also a fairly bland ability that increases your combat power but doesn't really do anything to define the archetype's behaviour. If you want to use this one, I suggest you turn it into a custom cantrip and grant it as part of Magic of Shadows, just as a flavourful back-up ranged attack.

Shifting Shadows: Rogues already have Uncanny Dodge, and while this might be better in some situations, it's not so much better that it's worth implementing as a separate limited-use feature. I suggest you change this so that it modifies Uncanny Dodge. Maybe when you use Uncanny Dodge you also get a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier, potentially causing the attack to miss. Something like that. Or just remove it, the archetype has one too many features if you ask me.

Shadow Stride: As I said, I don't really like that this functions differently from the monk's version for no real reason. Make it at-will (your bonus action is enough of a cost, since there's so many other things you can do with it) and remove the range upgrades. Now, advantage on your first melee attack is potentially problematic. Monks get it because they had to give up their bonus attack(s) to use this, but for rogues it'd be a major power boost. I suggest you remove that part at first and add it at 13th level, since that's when the Arcane Trickster similarly gets to Sneak Attack at will with Versatile Trickster.

The instructions of Shadow Strike are unclear. You teleport on a successful hit, does that mean you need to make a ranged attack? Or do you make a melee attack at range as a way of teleporting? If you miss, do you remain where you are? Besides, it seems like a needless ability, since it overlaps so heavily with Shadow Stride. If you change Shadow Stride to be at-will, this will be obsolete.

Ghostly Guise is crazy complicated and could do with some streamlining, but whatever. I tend to just ignore all features above 15th level, since most people never go there.

Edit: After a bit more thought, I think this might be a good progression.
3rd: Magic of Shadows (including the Shadow Jab cantrip) and Shadow Stride (without advantage on attacks)
9th: Some variation on Shifting Shadows
13th: Add advantage on the first attack to Shadow Stride
17th: Ghostly Guise
This reduces the number and power of the features, but that's how it should be. Rogue has a strong core class with only relatively small boosts from the archetype.

Kas Ba’alphegos
2017-10-28, 01:46 AM
Thank you very much for the in-depth suggestions Lalliman! I think you're right on almost all points, and have changed the class accordingly. I did keep the the Shadow Strike feature, but I changed some of the complicated bits to be less so (I think?). I introduced a new level 17 feature that I feel fits the whole archetype much better. The whole explanation on what features are in an archetype and when/why you get them when you do makes so much sense and is 100% helps my process. Thoughts on the re-work?

Kas Ba’alphegos
2017-10-28, 02:53 AM
Update: On further review of suggestions and more advice from others offline, I'm repeatedly drawn to the shadow stride. That seems to be the bone of contention almost every time.

Here is the current iteration(v2.0?) of the ability in question:
- - - - -

Shadow Stride:
At 3rd level when you choose this archetype, you can travel between shadows around you.

BONUS ACTION

When you are in dim light or darkness, you may teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness.

- At 13th level, you gain advantage on the first melee attack you make before the end of the turn. This attack only has advantage if the attack is made from shadows or dim light.

- - - - -
The hesitation for this ability centers around 1.) the rogue's sneak attack damage and 2.) the fact that you can do this an unlimited number of times.

I can DEFINITELY see where these could become problems. But fixing that and still keeping the same feel of the ability is difficult. Currently I am thinking about 3 variations:

Variation 1.) Instead of a stride, make it a boomerang type effect where at the end of your turn you reappear in the same spot you started or the closest available etc.. (But couldn't that be even more potentially broken?)

Variation 2.) Turning it into a step instead of a stride and nerffing the range (But would that fix the problem?)

Variation 3.) Switching the time you aquire the feature to level 9 and nerffing/erasing the "Shifting Shadows" Feature. (It was suggested to me to maybe include in level 3 the spell darkness that he can only cast it so many time per long rest?)

Thoughts Anyone?

Arte
2017-10-31, 07:44 PM
A few things here monks get, but at later levels.

I kind of see that (maybe I'm wrong) but this is a way to get around multi-classing to monk to grab this stuff.

Okay so if its criticism you want:

1. Shadow Jab needs some re-looking at as it tries to compensate for Rogues weakness but in doing so it competes with the Rogues strengths. So basically instead of disengaging for an ally to distract and you flank around for a sneak attack, you seem to want to stay there and tank with the tank.

2. 3rd level is really early for Shadow Stride from a players perspective I'd tap into this just for that and then bail into Paladin hard and fast. Basically this would allow for easier access to Rogue Paladin shenanigans free criting bigbads for 300+ damage with minimal effort.

3. Shifting Shadows, nothing really wrong here I guess Rogues usually make up for lower wisdom by having expertise but this is a thing. It doesn't totally slap monk in the face.

4. Shadow Strike is a teleport... this is just odd but okay, I don't think there should be a save attached to this as nothing happens really, no matter what you still teleport. In actual play the target had to make a passive perception vs your passive stealth or whatever rules you guys are going with. If it doesn't know you are there you'd have advantage anyway assuming combat has not started, oh wait nvm that's assassinate.

Maybe you could if you really wanted the save there give advantage if they fail the save? Because technically if they do not know you are there you could just use Shadow Stride to do the same thing with a little patience. What's more Shadow Stride doesn't have a limit.

5. This last one is a lot to unpack but I get it kind of, you basically control a zone or rather you put that zone under a favorable condition. Off the bat this just seems odd with the direction you were going to begin with. All the other features seem more like you were using your surroundings and now suddenly you are going and full caster like with AoE control.

Its a neat ability though but I don't see the point of either exhaustion or long rest being applied.

Basically you lose levels of exhaustion over a long rest so it seems kind of pointless to have both there.

It would be devious to leave it available for people. I would say add 2 or 3 times per long rest kind of like rage if you really want exhaustion to be a thing.

Okay, otherwise good go bro.

cdax
2017-11-01, 01:56 AM
Shadow Stride might be better at level 6, where other mobility traits are given.

Shadow Monk gets their movement at that level.