UMD DC to mimic dragonmark?

[InterstellarPro]

I cannot find a ruling one way or another. Is it possible to Use Magic Device to mimic a dragonmark? For example, if one of my players is an elf, but is an expert at forgery, and "happened" upon a Pen of the Scribe (which requires a Mark of Scribing to use to full effect), would the elf be able to use magic device to emulate possession of a Mark of Scribing? If this is not normally allowed, but I want to allow my player to use the item, what might I set the DC to? I was thinking 25 or 30 (similar to emulating a class feature or an alignment respectively).

[Feantar]

You cannot do it directly, but you could use Emulate a Class Feature and roll a 22 or more to emulate heir of Siberys' 2nd level ability, Siberys Mark - which counts as a dragonmark. I think. Maybe.

Edit: If you need a specific mark, you could emulate race first, and add the class feature as a rider effect with an additional roll.

[InterstellarPro]

You cannot do it directly, but you could use Emulate a Class Feature and roll a 22 or more to emulate heir of Siberys' 2nd level ability, Siberys Mark - which counts as a dragonmark. I think. Maybe.

Edit: If you need a specific mark, you could emulate race first, and add the class feature as a rider effect with an additional roll.

That's not bad, I like that! So, a DC 25 followed by a DC 22? I think that works for me.

[Nifft]

Dragonmarks are hereditary.

Thus I'd say that having a Dragonmark is ~kinda~ like being a sub-race of a Dragonmarked Race, and I'd set the UMD to Emulating a Race (DC 25) with a penalty of +2 to +5 depending on how far you are from that race.

You're already an Elf, so for you it'd be a DC 27 check. Just one check per use.

[InterstellarPro]

Dragonmarks are hereditary.

Thus I'd say that having a Dragonmark is ~kinda~ like being a sub-race of a Dragonmarked Race, and I'd set the UMD to Emulating a Race (DC 25) with a penalty of +2 to +5 depending on how far you are from that race.

You're already an Elf, so for you it'd be a DC 27 check. Just one check per use.

That's good, too. Maybe a DC 27 check followed by a DC 22 check (to emulate the class feature of Heir of Siberys). I like that even better!

[Nifft]

That's good, too. Maybe a DC 27 check followed by a DC 22 check (to emulate the class feature of Heir of Siberys). I like that even better!

I would only force one roll -- if you're forcing multiple rolls for skill checks, it can get tedious, and more rolls = more chances to fail.

IMHO your second skill check is the +2 to +5 modifier which I had applied to the first skill check.

My suggestion is to apply modifiers rather than force a chain of rolls.

[InterstellarPro]

I would only force one roll -- if you're forcing multiple rolls for skill checks, it can get tedious, and more rolls = more chances to fail.

IMHO your second skill check is the +2 to +5 modifier which I had applied to the first skill check.

My suggestion is to apply modifiers rather than force a chain of rolls.

At the moment, the character only has a +8 to UMD. With a DC 27, the character has a 1/10 chance of using the device and a 1/20 chance of not being able to use it for the day. She has a 2/3 chance of successfully using it:
1/10+(17/20)*(1/10)+(17/20)^2*(1/10)+... = 1/10*1/(1-17/20) = 2/3

If it were two separate checks, one at DC25 at the second at DC22, she would have about a 25% chance of (eventually) succeeding.

How about I just set the UMD DC to 15? I can say this particular use of the skill takes 1d4 minutes, success means she uses the pen. Failure means she cannot use the pen for the day. This will have approximately the same probability of success and would allow her to action point if she really needs to forge something.

Or, to make it a 25% chance of (eventually) succeeding, I can make it a DC24 check.

[Nifft]

You can do it like that too, certainly.


As another alternative, you (as the DM) could say: nope, Dragonmarks are special, because ancient dragon magic blah blah Draconic Prophecy blah blah handwaving inherent magic of the great progenitor dragon Eberron herself blah blah.

That gives more potency to the Dragonmarked Houses, who can use Dragonmark items as a kind of security measure.

Is that better for the setting? I dunno. It's your game. :smile:

[InterstellarPro]

You can do it like that too, certainly.


As another alternative, you (as the DM) could say: nope, Dragonmarks are special, because ancient dragon magic blah blah Draconic Prophecy blah blah handwaving inherent magic of the great progenitor dragon Eberron herself blah blah.

That gives more potency to the Dragonmarked Houses, who can use Dragonmark items as a kind of security measure.

Is that better for the setting? I dunno. It's your game. :smile:

I like the idea that anything is possible, but it is typically prohibitively difficult. Finding someone that has the necessary skill is rare. I realized that I calculated the probabilities wrong for when the check requires two rolls. If it is a DC 27 followed by a DC 22 check, then with a +8 modifier, there is close to a 40% chance she will eventually succeed for the day. I was calculating that every time she rolled, she would roll for both checks, but that just is not so. If she fails the DC 27, she will not roll the DC 22 check. She will reroll the DC 27 check. If she succeeds on the DC 27 check, then fails the DC 22 check, she will start off rerolling the DC 27 check, not the DC 22 check. So, it gives her much fewer opportunities to roll a natural 1, greatly increasing her chances that she eventually succeeds.

I think I will stick to my plan of a single roll that takes 1d6 minutes. It will start off as a DC 25 check. This starts off with a much smaller chance that she will actually succeed, but it scales better as she gains additional ranks in UMD. Here is the actual chances of her success (to hit a DC 27 followed by a DC 22, keep rolling until success or failure for the day):


UMD Success_Rate
--- ------------
+8 39%
+9 51%
+10 60%
+11 66.7%
+12 71.7%
+13 75.7%
+14 78.8%
+15 81.3%
+16 83.3%
+17 85%
+18 86.4%
+19 87.6%
+20 88.7%
+21 89%
+22 89.4%
+23 89.7%
+24 90%
. 90%
. 90%
. 90%

So, this table caps out at 90%. Additionally, the expected value for the amount of time until success (or failure) changes drastically. By +25 or higher bonus, the expected value for number of rounds is 1. Either you succeed or you fail for the day. There is no other option at that point. Whereas the 95% confidence interval for number of rounds that it can last before a success or a failure is 32 rounds at +8 UMD, 24 at +9, and it drastically reduces from there. Rather than 1d4 minutes, I think a more appropriate solution is it takes 1d10 rounds to "attune" for that use for the day. At a +8 or +9 modifier, that is it is way off, but by a +13 modifier or higher, it is likely far longer than it should last.

[Bronk]

You cannot do it directly, but you could use Emulate a Class Feature and roll a 22 or more to emulate heir of Siberys' 2nd level ability, Siberys Mark - which counts as a dragonmark. I think. Maybe.

Edit: If you need a specific mark, you could emulate race first, and add the class feature as a rider effect with an additional roll.

You could also do it with the DC40 check to emulate a specific person from that one Dragon Magazine article. You'd just have to find a person with the specific mark you need.

[daremetoidareyo]

You could flay the dragon mark off of someone and graft it to yourself...

[Hecuba]

You could flay the dragon mark off of someone and graft it to yourself...

This seems like a very efficient way to get all of the houses quickly invested in hunting you down.

That seems like it would end in a secret Jurasco facility where you are kept barely alive despite being skinless and suffering from every painful disease imaginable.

[daremetoidareyo]

This seems like a very efficient way to get all of the houses quickly invested in hunting you down.

That seems like it would end in a secret Jurasco facility where you are kept barely alive despite being skinless and suffering from every painful disease imaginable.

0.) Live hard, Play hard. The gods do not make their will manifest through cowards!

1.) flay the dragonmark off...then kill the victim...then hide the body using everything you got. The nobles are asking for it anyway. Screw 'em.

2.) Don't be a showoff about it. Look for a butt or thigh dragonmark. Don't be grafting one onto your face, at least...not until you're 15th level or so at the minimum.

3.) Nonstop plot hooks. Flay lots of dragonmarks! Make it your schtick. We finally found the use for the BOVD spell, 'preserve organ'.
3.a)Start grafting dragonmarks onto customers.
3.b) Set up schools for the poor where you teach the process to a generation of young minds.
3.c.) Tell DM that you want a 5 level dragonmark thief prestige class.

[Cosi]

This seems like a very efficient way to get all of the houses quickly invested in hunting you down.

"Oh no, a bunch of people want to kill me! How will I, an adventurer, ever survive this!"

Also, the Dragonmarked Houses aren't that powerful. Your party could probably dismantle them by, like, 15th level at the latest if that was a thing you wanted to do.

[Hecuba]

"Oh no, a bunch of people want to kill me! How will I, an adventurer, ever survive this!"

Also, the Dragonmarked Houses aren't that powerful. Your party could probably dismantle them by, like, 15th level at the latest if that was a thing you wanted to do.

I didn't say it was a bad hook, merely that there would be consequences for such a character.

And if you're 15th level in Eberron, there's maybe a dozen humanoids running around of your level. You should consider a trip to Argonnessen to deal with that Prophesy problem rather than wasting time with silly things like the Houses.

[daremetoidareyo]

I didn't say it was a bad hook, merely that there would be consequences for such a character.

And if you're 15th level in Eberron, there's maybe a dozen humanoids running around of your level. You should consider a trip to Argonnessen to deal with that Prophesy problem rather than wasting time with silly things like the Houses.

All the more reason to Flay those Dragon marks off of the houses and use their power towards the greater good

[edathompson2]

I think if the player got inventive enough, I'd allow it. Especially, if he/she put allot of effort into making it happen.

It would be something they would remember. Creating memories and having fun should be the cornerstone of what we're trying to accomplish here.