Warhammer 2 Total War

[Corsair14]

Anyone else playing this?
I picked this up last week and liked it so much I picked up the first one too along with the expansions. I really like the game play. Its not quite as complicated and crunchy as I found Rome 2 and I like the units more. And today the new map which incorporates the whole world is released!

So what tips and tactics do people use?
I am finding it a hard time especially if I don't control an entire province to keep Public order in the green. Even dropping taxes the people still end up rebelling, at least in Wh1. I haven't had as big an issue with wh2 it seems but man, even the wood elves revolt nonstop.

I try to conquer a complete province before moving on to other areas.

Any build orders people do to game the system any or pretty general for whats needed at the time?

[boomwolf]

MORTAAAAL REAAAALMS!

Oh god, the combined map.
It takes forever for the turn to pass, I'm afraid what might happen in the third game combined map XD


Keeping public order is hard, until you realize you actually don't really want to.

While your main army is around, a rebellion is a GOOD thing, as its an easy XP food.

Being systemic and taking down one province at a time, and one faction at a time is the easiest way to go.

Things really change from faction to faction. each has his own issues, need and threats.

[huttj509]

Do we know if mortal reals will still be available if I buy TW Wrarhammer 1 later? Like, looking for a better than 50% off sale?

[Vitruviansquid]

Any build orders people do to game the system any or pretty general for whats needed at the time?

Before I get home and give you a more detailed response, any race in particular you wanted to know how to start?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pretty stoked about this game, not gonna lie.

Lizardmen seem pretty awesome, from the Quill18 three day stream extravaganza. Not much in the way of archers, mind you, at least not until like Skink Skirmishers or Chameleon Skinks, but big beefy melee guys are big and beefy. And of course, dinosaurs with lasers, what's not to love? Cleanse the corruption of the soft-skins!

[LCP]

It's an awesome game. I played WH1 to death and now that my favourite faction (lizards) are here I anticipate I'll play this even more.

In fact I am hosting a multiplayer tournament on Sunday - anyone of any skill level is very welcome to join.

http://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/hDcRnhAzTf

[Vitruviansquid]

Tips and Tactics for campaign:

1. Move fast, hit hard. There is no time limit in the Mortal Empires campaign, strictly speaking, but as your game is going on, all your rivals are devouring smaller factions and gaining strength. In order to win, you do need to race them in powering up or else you'd be faced with an enemy mega-faction in the future.

2. Money makes troops, troops make money. There are roughly two strategic phases you will cycle through as you play. First, recruit units and armies aggressively, especially at the opening turns of the game, and use them to generate money by winning battles, capturing/sacking enemy settlements. When your immediate enemies are annihilated, you go into the second phase of building up. Your new settlements or lump sums of money from sacking will allow you to build up your infrastructure, especially in newly taken settlements, and expand your income. Then, once your income is expanded, you will want to recruit up to the hilt again and find some other faction to rob.

Tips and Tactics for Battles:

1. The most important micro trick is locking your control groups. When you make a control group, you can keep them unlocked or lock them by clicking the blue lock icon on top of the control group's unit cards. An unlocked group will go wherever you click by lining up and will attack whatever enemy unit you click. A locked group will go wherever you click by staying in their formation when you locked them, and will try to pick a unit to attack in their rough formation when you click an attack order.

I keep my frontline units in locked groups so they'll stay vaguely line-shaped when I order the attack. I keep my archers in unlocked groups to focus fire. I keep my cavalry in unlocked groups because I tend to micro with them the most anyways.

2. I have found this formation extremely easy to micro, and fits with almost all races: Put sword infantry in your center, archers behind them, all your cavalry on the right flank, four spearmen units on the left flank.

Your frontline engages their frontline - generally winning this battle if you have swordsmen and they have spearmen.
Your spearmen on the left flank stop all enemy cavalry trying to flank you from the left.
Your cavalry smashes the enemy's cavalry on their flank due to you having all your cavalry here and the opponent splitting his cavalry. Ideally, your cavalry should be anti-large, like Cold One Knights and Knights of the Realm.
Your archers are protected by everybody else, and can run up the left flank under cover of your spearmen if they will not be threatened there, and get to shoot on the enemy's unshielded flank.

3. Monsters and heroes have incredible synergy with archers and infantry. Enemy units will generally hit your monsters and heroes, stop, and then encircle them as they try to fit more enemies around to attack them to attack. So now your monster or hero has stopped the enemy and gotten him to turn his back, so your archers can pretty much pour missiles into them, shielded or not. Embedding monsters and heroes into your infantry allows the infantry to protect them while they dole out high damage AoE attacks. This is especially useful against enemy heroes and monsters, as AoE melee damage is split amongst everyone getting hit. You should basically always use monsters by stacking a unit of infantry around them, unless you are using them to bait enemy units into your archers.

[Corvus]

Don't have the game myself as I don't have a machine that can run it :(

But I have been watching a lot of others play it and have noticed a few things.

Get a second lord early on and just have them out at sea looting every island, shipwreck and everything else you can find. So many of those I watch are ignoring them, which is crazy, as the gold found more than pays for the lord's upkeep, but it also brings in piles of xp, buffs and items.

And the other is get a magic user. If you lord isn't one then pick up a spell casting hero to accompany the army. They wreck things. One of those I watched had a skink priest of heavens who utterly messed up the enemy, usually getting two to three hundred kills a battle, zipping around on his terradon to hit the enemy in theri weak parts and wreck their battle lines.

[huttj509]

Don't have the game myself as I don't have a machine that can run it :(

But I have been watching a lot of others play it and have noticed a few things.

Get a second lord early on and just have them out at sea looting every island, shipwreck and everything else you can find. So many of those I watch are ignoring them, which is crazy, as the gold found more than pays for the lord's upkeep, but it also brings in piles of xp, buffs and items.

And the other is get a magic user. If you lord isn't one then pick up a spell casting hero to accompany the army. They wreck things. One of those I watched had a skink priest of heavens who utterly messed up the enemy, usually getting two to three hundred kills a battle, zipping around on his terradon to hit the enemy in theri weak parts and wreck their battle lines.

Did they rebalance magic from when the game was released? Because my skink priest and frogman were pretty much just tickling the enemy with their magic. Might have been a settings issue (it didn't scale with unit size settings at first, allegedly).

[Corsair14]

I don't know about rebalancing but I know my casters are pretty effective when I use them.

Looking forward to Throgg to get in the game. He is one of my favorite characters from TT. Kinda sad he has hordes of marauders instead of trolls as base troops but oh well, Ill get my monster army one day. Lizardmen are a good sub for big scaly things walking around I guess.

Good point on the revolt thing. I would prefer not to have to have characters in the rear just for counter insurgency missions though.

[LCP]

Magic has been tuned up in damage from its WH1 levels. A lot of damage spells are a lot more dangerous now - if you're getting bad results you might want to play around with finding the best targets for them.

[Vitruviansquid]

Did they rebalance magic from when the game was released? Because my skink priest and frogman were pretty much just tickling the enemy with their magic. Might have been a settings issue (it didn't scale with unit size settings at first, allegedly).

I don't know what spells what you were casting on your lizzies, but as Dark Elves, I found that Bladewind just trashes any infantry it passes through. Feels especially good putting it right through a unit.

Spells have resist chances as well as AP and non-AP damage, though, so it could be that you are casting on poor targets.

I really wish CA made spell tooltips clearer.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Having just gotten Mortal Empires loaded, I was surprised that the Norscans don’t seem to be available for it despite me having the DLC for the first game.

Is that just an oversight? Is it because I got the DLC for free with my Warhammer II preorder so the game thinks I didn’t buy the DLC? Is it because their model of coastal settlements and raiding doesn’t mesh well with Mortal Empires’ setup? :smallconfused:

[boomwolf]

They announced that norsca isn't ready yet and requires adjustments for mortal realms, and should be there in about a month, along with the next FDLC (I suspect Ikit Claw as the new LL, definitely a skaven and he's the best candidate. )

A month after that "an experiment", than a high elf LL, then a lizard one, and beyond that it's currently unknown.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Ah. I figured that was the case. Either way, I’m sticking with the first game for the moment, since that has all the DLC so I’m getting the full experience whilst waiting for II to catch up, plus it’ll be good practice for Mortal Empires.

What I’m scheming to do is a campaign as the Empire and rename any lords and heroes to the canon ones from the game, like rename the lord I appoint as Reikmarshal Kurt Helborg and rename the Arch Lector I appoint Arch Lector Kaslain. I’m also going to try and confederate with Middenland ASAP so I have Boris Todbringer on my team and rename other generals after the Elector Counts.

[Corsair14]

Question, how often do you go after members of your own faction? Say Brets against other Brets or the Woodelves vs the tree guys and do you have to to win?

[Vitruviansquid]

Question, how often do you go after members of your own faction? Say Brets against other Brets or the Woodelves vs the tree guys and do you have to to win?

Depends on the start.

Bretonnians are strictly prohibited from fighting each other due to the possibility of getting huge Chivalry penalties.

The Greenskin early-midgame is largely fighting against dwarves and other orcs. Skarsnik's early game goal is to beat the Crooked Moon Mutinous Gits who are also Greenskins, so there's that.

The Empire early game is largely fighting against some Imperial provinces and confederating others.

Your first enemy as Drakenhof Vampire Counts (Mannfred, Helmann Ghorst, that guy who summons Krell) are going to be Templehof vampires.

Malekith and Tyrion fight against their own races a lot, I haven't played Morathi but Teclis is basically surrounded by non-high elves and basically never fights his own race.

I'm told it's very helpful as Wood Elves to conquer a neighbor in the early game, but those Wood Elf home provinces are defended to the hilt and I've never been able to pull it off.

If all else is equal, you'd probably prefer to fight a faction that is a different race than yours because you may later have an option to confederate with a faction of your race, but in some cases, confederation is so unlikely, you might as well attack.

[Corsair14]

Yeah the wood elf thing got me too. They are tough mofos in general.

Wondering when we might expect to see the missing races of warhammer. Three that I can think of off hand so far that maybe will make it into WH3? Ogre kingdoms, Tomb Kings, and my favorite after wood elves, Chaos Dwarves. Need me some CDs.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'd expect a Tomb King DLC as they're location is already on the map, Ogres and Chaos Dwarves will have to wait until Warhammer 3 I suspect, though opinions differ as to what other faction will be playable on-release for that one. Some say an expanded Chaos Demons faction, though I think the best way to do that would be just to expand the general Chaos roster.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Something I’ve noticed in both games is a tendency for the most efficient army setups seem to use a handful of units and leave whole swathes of their factions possible unit roster untouched.

The Dwarfs are probably the best example, since most army builds I’ve seen for them are made up of Longbeards, Quarrelers, Cannons and maybe a few Ironbreakers from time to time, completely ignoring things like Hammerers, Slayers, Gyrocopters and the Dwarfen Hero units. It just feels like there’s no way to fit a varied blend of the units available to the Dwarfs in a single 20-unit stack.

In the new game I’ve seen something similar with the Dark Elves, with most army builds spamming Shades and Black Ark Corsairs with Handbows, avoiding things like the Har Ganeth Executioners and Black Guard of Naggaroth entirely.

Has anyone else noticed this? Or am I just a weirdo for wanting to see as many different unit types in my army as possible?

[boomwolf]

OH ffs.

Hard lesson learned this current playthrough-do NOT make any military alliances.

so many times my own freaking allies decided to "go to war" against each other, sending my reliability down the drain as I have to betray SOMEONE-and then the bastards don't even fight.
Or even simply dragging me into a fight against a third party who I care little for, do nothing but stare at each other for ten turns, make peace, but that third party is too angry with me to make peace with me as well, despite not being the initial agressor, nor ever taking action against them.


I CANT confederate, with anyone, because of this ****.
You know how hard it is to grow as the Empire, when you can't confederate, and practically everyone around is your allies?
I just took out the vamps, and now I do not border with ANYONE that isn't a military ally of mine, and yet nobody is willing to confederate, regardless of how close we are, and how much stronger I am, because of past nonsense.


Next playthrough, I'm not making any godamn allies. the thing is a burden.






On another note-yes, its outright impossible to have a proper bland of units in a 20 stack without running too low on key units to rely on them. the game is assuming you got 2-3 armies working together in the later stages in order to make proper use of your rooster, and that's what makes lightning strike so unbelievably good. (and why the AI is set to not like taking it, it would let them assassinate your "support" stack too easy)

The AI can manage it, because unlike you he can give infinite orders at once, so he can micron each individual unit on the battlefield to maximize their potential, but as a human, you just CANT get the job done with only 1-2 copies of a unit. at least not without constant pausing

On the bright side, the orders the AI gives may be far more numerous, but often quite stupid-so you can beat him by out-thinking it. my empire's mostly-ranged army just broke apart vamp armies by having my entire army skrimish around while karl, a witch hunter and a few rieksguard units ran around assassinating the fragmented vamp armies that were chasing my dudes all over the place.
Despite them having a far superior army (for some reason I cant recruit any RoR. the vamps AI however, had at least 4 of them in EVERY stack. the sheer recruitment speed advantage they gave them was annoying, how on earth did they afford it?! I ran through at least 12 different full stacks he kept quickly re-recruiting that way and with rezzing while pacifying sylvania...that recruitment speed was absurd!)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I can understand having your armies travel in pairs. I’ve been doing that since Rome II, but Quest Battles don’t let you bring reinforcements, which are the biggest challenges I’ve faced in both Warhammer games.

[boomwolf]

Quest battles are a real hit and miss.

Some are soul grinding brutal compared to the point it time you are expected to do them, others are absurdly easy.

Often it comes down to losing them once (don't bring heroes to first attempt!), learning the mechanics of the battle, and bringing a counter army, as most quest battles are rather obvious.

Some favor bringing a highly mobile strike force to quickly eliminate the first portion of enemy's before Reinforcements pour in.
Some require a brick wall army with lots of archers and spears (or higher tier equivalents) to just pummel wave after wave of enemies that blindly charge at you.

[Blackhawk748]

Everything you just said is why I love Vamps. Rebellions? Not happening. Alliances? Nope. Mixed unit armies? Sorta, but that's mostly cuz half my army was zombies cuz they are basically free to revive. The rest was Black Knights and Crypt Horrors.

Also the guy you where thinking of is Heinrich Kemmler

[Corsair14]

I like the Iron Drakes for dwarves. I would think missile troops backed up by long beards, cannons and a few iron drake squads would be pretty nasty. I haven't played far enough to be able to recruit iron drakes so only had the one the White Dwarf starts with but its been an MVP unit every battle.

Empire is the one army I have not tried as even on TT I found them fairly boring to play, paint, and look at. I might have to give the whole skirmish thing a try with another go at Wood Elves, that seems kind of funny actually.

[Vitruviansquid]

Ah, Heinrich Kemmler. Thanks.

I don't know about TT, but I've found Empire pretty fun in Total War. The state troops are a little bland, but the key seems to be that their supporting troops are all excellent and oftentimes interesting. Demigryphs give you decent monster power, you have an artillery unit for every situation, and outriders give you missile cavalry that don't suck, unlike most missile cavalry in the game (which reminds me, I should try out dark riders with crossbows).

But now that I've had a taste of dark elves, I can't play anything else. It just feels like they have superb units for every role, some special roles other armies don't get, and the best versatile archers in the game with shielded dark shards. I also consider the corsairs with double swords are possibly way undercosted, but almost unusable in campaign due to vulnerability to dark shards and starting locations that tend to force you to fight other dark elves most of the game.

[LCP]

It just feels like there’s no way to fit a varied blend of the units available to the Dwarfs in a single 20-unit stack.

I think this comes more from the staged availability of recruitment buildings - it's entirely possible to build a balanced 20-stack that uses a little of everything (or at least, lots of things), it just takes a bunch of different buildings to make and by the time you have those buildings your early units are already probably marauding far away from your recruitment centres.

As the game progresses I like to try to make "themed" armies that explore different parts of the roster - that works better with being able to focus one group of units from specific buildings in the different settlements where they're recruited.

[Vaz]

Did they rebalance magic from when the game was released? Because my skink priest and frogman were pretty much just tickling the enemy with their magic. Might have been a settings issue (it didn't scale with unit size settings at first, allegedly).

Eh? Mazdamundi wrecks, while the Heavens Breath gibs 100+ skaven at time. Even if it is only skaven, they let your Saurus free to surround ROgres and Svermin. Get it to T3 and you spam it: ive seen 950 killed purely from breaths.

It still works beat on not huge, but they've changed a few mechanics that improve it.

Net of amyntok + anything with AoE is as murderous as ever.

[Guancyto]

Moooortal eeeeeempiiiires!

So, some thoughts on Mortal Empires campaign:

-Long Campaign victory requires you to capture or ally every single major faction capital, plus several that aren't majors. I have to conquer everything from Itza to Kislev? My god the map is so huge. Short victory it is...
-In one of the more hilarious oversights, when porting over the Vortex campaign they forgot to give the High Elf gate provinces the "walled settlement" modifier. Siege engines? They're only fortress gates the size of cities, I don't need no siege engines!
-Never noticed this before, but Tyrion and Teclis have different climate preferences, Tyrion has Frozen as green, while Teclis has Jungle as green. Guess the brothers disagree on which Disney movie is best.
-Realm Divide mechanics might be a little borked, Warriors of Chaos showed up on Turn 74 for me, then Archaeon showed up on Turn 78 when I had maybe a third to halfish of the Empire conquered. That was fun few turns!
-They might have fixed this a long time ago and I just haven't played TW:Warhammer 1 in ages, but Vampire Counts no longer get to make peace with Archie and totally ignore the End Times, periodically resettling whatever gets razed
-Every corner of the map seems to get in on the chaos invasion, with several new chaos hordes spawning all over the place, while Archie and his posse come from the Chaos Wastes as usual. You only need to kill the Warriors and Warherd of Chaos to end the invasion event, even if the other hordes are busy burning the world
-Being able to inhabit everything has some fun unintended consequences, I kicked Bretonnia out of Bretonnia but they have taken up their true mantle as the masters of Norsca, competing over the chaos wastelands with Malekith, Hochland and two lizardman factions (everybody settles Norsca now because everybody hates the Norsca and invades them when they're bored, and then the AI doesn't understand that red climate + 100% chaos corruption means you should burn everything and leave)
-Rebellions in Norsca spawn actual faction rebels now, who will capture the settlement and recreate the faction instead of burning it and disappearing. Looks like the days of letting rebels do your razing for you are over
-Being able to inhabit everything, even with penalties, is wonderful. I'm not going to say that turning the Dwarf half of the world map into a smoking ruin as vampires wasn't fun, but turning it into a productive part of the Eternal Empire is funner
-Skill trees have only been somewhat updated to Warhammer 2. The amusing one is that Vampires can't get Immortal. Yeah, I know, right?
-Passing a turn takes so long that I've taken up reading between turns, especially early game where none of the factions have been eliminated but you have small income and one or two armies. On the other hand I've gotten a surprising amount of reading done!
-Despite all the grousing this thing is amazing. Anybody tried co-op with mortal empires yet and can comment on how it works?

[VoxRationis]

I don't have a computer that can run it, but I'm following this game nonetheless. I'm really curious to see how the High Elves do in multiplayer now that Mortal Empires is out. From what I've seen, they have a particular weakness to artillery, since it's fairly simple to get rid of their elite infantry or at least dispel Martial Prowess at range, and their own artillery is fairly weak. In TWW2 by itself, only one faction can really take advantage of that, but 1 had a bunch of different factions that could bring heavy amounts of artillery. The Empire, Chaos, and the dwarves could all probably make effective anti-HE builds based on defending a large artillery corps with a quincunx formation of anti-large units (straight lines are a bad idea thanks to Fiery Convocation), and I'm not sure how to best counter such things.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't have a computer that can run it, but I'm following this game nonetheless. I'm really curious to see how the High Elves do in multiplayer now that Mortal Empires is out. From what I've seen, they have a particular weakness to artillery, since it's fairly simple to get rid of their elite infantry or at least dispel Martial Prowess at range, and their own artillery is fairly weak. In TWW2 by itself, only one faction can really take advantage of that, but 1 had a bunch of different factions that could bring heavy amounts of artillery. The Empire, Chaos, and the dwarves could all probably make effective anti-HE builds based on defending a large artillery corps with a quincunx formation of anti-large units (straight lines are a bad idea thanks to Fiery Convocation), and I'm not sure how to best counter such things.

Actually, the Lizardfolk counter HE pretty damn strongly. Every one of their melee infantry can end up with a shield, which really neuters the archers which are the HE's strongpoint. Couple of squads of spears with shields or Crocasaurs will do for any flanking calvary who try to stir things up. Then it's just a big ol' hatchet fight with Temple Guards and Crocasaurs tying up with the enemies, and whatever dinosaurs I have rampaging through their archers.

[LCP]

HE seem to make out like bandits vs. most WH1 factions - they had the best win/loss ratio on stream of any faction in last weekend's tournament.

[Vitruviansquid]

High elves have pretty good archers, true.

But the way I see it, their main strength is in elite infantry and flying monsters. They have decent cavalry as well, but no anti-large cavalry means they will typically lose the cavalry fight (though I have not tested any matchups) to factions with stuff like Cold One Knights, Blood Knights, Cold One Spear-riders, Demigryph Knights, Boar Boy Big 'uns, and you get the picture.

High Elf Spearmen are also pretty much the best chump infantry in the game. Before being reduced to 50% health, an unranked, unmodified spearman unit has 50 defense, which is head and shoulder above their competitors, and even many elites. Combine this with silver shields, and they are one of the most cost effective meatshields you could have against both melee and small missiles. And they still retain the ability to school large units.

[LCP]

Dragon Princes are strong enough to win cav vs. many of the units you mention - they have a huge charge bonus, Martial Mastery and 30% physical resistance. Ellyrian Reavers are also some of the best light cav in the game.

[Blackhawk748]

High elves have pretty good archers, true.

But the way I see it, their main strength is in elite infantry and flying monsters. They have decent cavalry as well, but no anti-large cavalry means they will typically lose the cavalry fight (though I have not tested any matchups) to factions with stuff like Cold One Knights, Blood Knights, Cold One Spear-riders, Demigryph Knights, Boar Boy Big 'uns, and you get the picture.

High Elf Spearmen are also pretty much the best chump infantry in the game. Before being reduced to 50% health, an unranked, unmodified spearman unit has 50 defense, which is head and shoulder above their competitors, and even many elites. Combine this with silver shields, and they are one of the most cost effective meatshields you could have against both melee and small missiles. And they still retain the ability to school large units.

Being fair, Blood Knights are a frelling terror, especially when supported right.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Somewhat of a weird question but if I’m playing the Empire (in either the first game or Mortal Empires), what are the most “lore accurate” buildings I should build in Altdorf? I know that the Colleges of Magic are located there, and Stables to build up to the Menagerie as the Imperial Zoo, but after that I’m not sure what other buildings I can fit in to make the Altdorf of the game match the Altdorf of the lore as closely as possible.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'd build a Reiksfort not in Altdorf but in one of it's smaller buildings. It's also home to the Imperial Engineers School (though you might want to make Nuln your engineer-centre anyways). It also has the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, so you want to build that line up to it's max as well, giving you mass priests and religious troops.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'd build a Reiksfort not in Altdorf but in one of it's smaller buildings. It's also home to the Imperial Engineers School (though you might want to make Nuln your engineer-centre anyways). It also has the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, so you want to build that line up to it's max as well, giving you mass priests and religious troops.
That makes sense, considering the encyclopedia entry on the Reiksfort says “The Reiksguard’s HQ is in Altdorf, but this is a smaller satellite fort they can rapidly deploy from.” Thank you!

[Vitruviansquid]

Dragon Princes are strong enough to win cav vs. many of the units you mention - they have a huge charge bonus, Martial Mastery and 30% physical resistance. Ellyrian Reavers are also some of the best light cav in the game.

Did some testing with the AI. As it turns out, Dragon Princes will beat Cold one knights and Boar boy big uns 1v1. The Princes' stats are just too huge to lose. However, you can almost afford 3 of either unit for every 2 Dragon Princes, but I cannot test a 3v2 more cleanly against the AI.

[NRSASD]

I'm thinking of buying TW Warhammer 1 and all it's expansions during the christmas/black friday sale. I'm a huge total war fan, but the last game I played was Empire. Not really a fan of Warhammer in general though. Is this game worth buying on its merits as a TW game?

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm thinking of buying TW Warhammer 1 and all it's expansions during the christmas/black friday sale. I'm a huge total war fan, but the last game I played was Empire. Not really a fan of Warhammer in general though. Is this game worth buying on its merits as a TW game?

Warhammer takes after Rome 2 and Attila, which were kind of strange departures from earlier Total War games. Units now have different amounts of HP and weapon damage, and you will see a much larger number of stats to wrap your head around than in previous games.

Does Warhammer hold up well as a game? I would say so. I've been playing Total War since Medieval 1 (skipped Napoleon, though), and I've found Warhammer and Warhammer 2 to be the deepest and most interesting of them on the campaign strategy layer as well as on the battle tactical layer. But then, I'm constantly surprised by the different reasons why people say they play Total War.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does Warhammer hold up well as a game? I would say so. I've been playing Total War since Medieval 1 (skipped Napoleon, though), and I've found Warhammer and Warhammer 2 to be the deepest and most interesting of them on the campaign strategy layer as well as on the battle tactical layer. But then, I'm constantly surprised by the different reasons why people say they play Total War.

Is it still the case that humans can only take over vampire cities and viceversa, and both are forced to raze all other cities to the ground (with similar pairings for other races)? I understand that has been replaced in TW:WH2 with the "climate" mechanic, but has it been retroactively applied to TW:WH?

GW

[Vitruviansquid]

Is it still the case that humans can only take over vampire cities and viceversa, and both are forced to raze all other cities to the ground (with similar pairings for other races)? I understand that has been replaced in TW:WH2 with the "climate" mechanic, but has it been retroactively applied to TW:WH?

GW

Nothing has been retroactively applied to WH1

[boomwolf]

Half true.
In the "combined map" mode of TWW2 that you get if you own both games, all races are updated to the climate mechanics.
Ironically it turns some previous conquerable zones into harsh, so you can get more stuff, but some of the old stuff are worse.

[Corsair14]

On the combined map I think all races cant capture all towns now. Think being the operative word.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah in mortal empires the settlements work like in TW Warhammer 2. Also I don't know if it's a holdover from the Old World or not but I'm having a really hard time with Brettonia... I think it's because of all the cash I need to sink into infrastructure before I can recruit halfway decent troops.

[Vitruviansquid]

Half true.
In the "combined map" mode of TWW2 that you get if you own both games, all races are updated to the climate mechanics.
Ironically it turns some previous conquerable zones into harsh, so you can get more stuff, but some of the old stuff are worse.


On the combined map I think all races cant capture all towns now. Think being the operative word.

But to be clear, since you need to own both WH1 and WH2 to play Mortal Empires, if anyone is asking whether climates are in Total War: Warhammer because they intend to only buy Total War: Warhammer (if it's on sale or something)... no, you would not have climates.


Yeah in mortal empires the settlements work like in TW Warhammer 2. Also I don't know if it's a holdover from the Old World or not but I'm having a really hard time with Brettonia... I think it's because of all the cash I need to sink into infrastructure before I can recruit halfway decent troops.

The cost for the stables chain is so bad, especially when knights of the realm are tier 3.

Now that capitals have extra building slots, it'd be nice if Bretonnian cavalry was split into two building chains.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This is for the first game, but at this stage I suppose it kind of works for both.

I've been playing as the Empire and find myself getting a tad frustrated. I'm able to unite Reikland quickly enough, but when I start moving out into other provinces, the Beastmen tear into town and trash up everything, murdering my economy with it. So I either find myself stuck in Reikland for over 50+ turns trying to build up enough money to get better buildings so I can get two more armies, one to defend Reikland while I'm gone and the other to follow Karl Franz around so I can actually win sieges!

SIGMAR'S TEETH, WHY?! :smallfurious:

[Vitruviansquid]

This is for the first game, but at this stage I suppose it kind of works for both.

I've been playing as the Empire and find myself getting a tad frustrated. I'm able to unite Reikland quickly enough, but when I start moving out into other provinces, the Beastmen tear into town and trash up everything, murdering my economy with it. So I either find myself stuck in Reikland for over 50+ turns trying to build up enough money to get better buildings so I can get two more armies, one to defend Reikland while I'm gone and the other to follow Karl Franz around so I can actually win sieges!

SIGMAR'S TEETH, WHY?! :smallfurious:

Playing on Hard, I had success breaking out of early game by doing this:

1. Smash the secessionist army, recruit 3 units, take the eastern settlement in Reikland on turn 2.
2. Double back west and take the southwestern settlement. Then go north and take the northwestern settlement. You should have Reikland united now, at turn 5 or 6.
3. Take your main army past Marienburg and immediately smash Grung Zint, thereby preempting the Greenskin threat.
4. Any time the main army is not recruiting, you should have a second army recruiting. Put them in the southwestern settlement to defend against an inevitable beastmen attack.

Once the beastmen are defeated or slink off without challenging your second army, you have a bit more flexibility.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So should I recruit a new Lord right on Turn 1? Or wait until later?

Also, how do I get Nordland to like me so I can do the Reikland Runefang quest, or Middenland to like me so I can confederate them and add Boris Todbringer to my armies?

[Vitruviansquid]

So should I recruit a new Lord right on Turn 1? Or wait until later?

Also, how do I get Nordland to like me so I can do the Reikland Runefang quest, or Middenland to like me so I can confederate them and add Boris Todbringer to my armies?

I recruit the new Lord whenever I can't or don't need to recruit 3 units for my main Legendary Lord.

I... actually don't know what you'd do about Nordland. Never considered this, since I always only played Balthasar Gelt. Nordland starts the game allied with Middenland, and the two of them tend to end up warring with Marienburg at some points, so maybe declare war on Marienburg when Nordland's at war with them. I think Norsca will also rumble with Nordland fairly early. Certainly when Chaos sweeps down. As for confederating with Middenland... I never considered it. I consider the Middenland/Nordland alliance to be there only to act as a mire for the Chaos armies, so it was never in my interest to conquer or confederate them. All's I know about confederating is, you want to have good relations with the faction, and the faction needs to feel militarily threatened by a third party. In order to achieve the latter, you actually don't want to get into an alliance with them.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So you’re saying I need to pick between moving the Reiklander Runefang quest along or trying to get Boris Todbringer (THE MAN! THE LEGEND!) as a “bonus” Legendary Lord? :smallconfused:

[Guancyto]

If you can afford to go a-expeditioning, smashing the Vampire Counts gets Empire factions to like you (they like it when you smash people they hate, and they hate vampires) and gets you some valuable land (once you've built up some sources of +Untainted so as to counteract the vampire corruption you don't even need a permanent garrison for Sylvania, and it has a ton of resources).

Meanwhile sailing north and smashing Norsca is harder (attrition for days) and gets you very little money (their settlements sack for about 4k each), but sacking and subsequently razing Norscan settlements both gets you huge diplomatic bonuses to Empire factions (they hate Norsca) and a little extra breathing room when Chaos comes calling (because you don't have to worry about Norscan invasions so much).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That’s kinda hard to do when you you’re just starting out and Sylvania is clear on the other side of a bunch of Elector Count lands I’d need to trespass through to get to it...

[Vitruviansquid]

So you’re saying I need to pick between moving the Reiklander Runefang quest along or trying to get Boris Todbringer (THE MAN! THE LEGEND!) as a “bonus” Legendary Lord? :smallconfused:

No, I'm saying that both objectives are outside the realm of my expertise.

[Grytorm]

Hello, I was thinking of getting this game at some point, and I was wondering. Would I need to get the first one as well in order to play the old world factions or is that included.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Hello, I was thinking of getting this game at some point, and I was wondering. Would I need to get the first one as well in order to play the old world factions or is that included.
I know that DLC factions like the Wood Elves, Beastmen and Bretonnia need the DLC they came with to be unlocked in Mortal Empires. As for the originals (Greenskins, Vampire Counts, Dwarfs and Empire) I'm not sure if you need the base game or not, but I believe the answer is yes.

[Guancyto]

You need both games for the Mortal Empires campaign (the one that has the Old World races), yes. If you just have Warhammer Total War 2 you only get the Eye of the Vortex campaign, which only has Helves, Delves, Lizards and Skaven as playable.

That being said there are mods to unlock the various factions on the Vortex campaign map, so if you wanna play Dwarves with just WHTW2 you can, but you'd be doing it in the New World.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Something I've been wondering: the Empire guide I've been following recommends after unifying Reikland to take Kemperbad next and then head straight for Averheim, ignoring that you're kind of trespassing on Stirland along the way, and still have Talabecland mad at me since I didn't conquer Talabheim to finish the job, plus when I've attempted so in the past, Marienburg or Nordland have sneak-attacked Reikland the minute I drop my guard. And there's the aforementioned Beastmen, who are much more dangerous this time than when I was playing as the Greenskins.

Once Averheim's taken, the guide has you pick at Stirland, then invade Nuln and Wissenland, before finally finishing by taking Wurtbad.

Even if it IS out of date, it seems odd to, once you've established yourself, jump for a distant province instead of expanding to more immediate neighbors. Has anyone else had success with the Empire that can critique this or maybe suggest what worked for them to get up and running in the early game?

I'm finding it hard to leave Reikland once I've dealt with the secessionists, babysitting the place while I wait for buildings to be finished and money to come into my coffers so I can actually get a second army, and waiting 50 to 60 turns with a single province probably isn't how the game means you to play it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That being said there are mods to unlock the various factions on the Vortex campaign map, so if you wanna play Dwarves with just WHTW2 you can, but you'd be doing it in the New World.

Oh, that's an interesting piece of information. That you very much for mentioning it. I had not even considered that it might be possible to do that. Are they steam mods, or would I have to hack the game?

GW

[Guancyto]

Oh, that's an interesting piece of information. That you very much for mentioning it. I had not even considered that it might be possible to do that. Are they steam mods, or would I have to hack the game?

GW
There are several, but here's one:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1158985864&searchtext=factions+unlocker

[LCP]

They're Steam mods, perfectly legit. You have to play as Vortex campaign subfactions rather than the main factions (e.g. a faction unlocker doesn't give you access to the Dwarfs faction, it gives you access to Karak Zorn or Greybeard's Prospectors or one of those) and I think the DLC units are missing from the rosters, but it's still enough to give you a good taste for the faction.

@Zousha I would always go for Marienburg first after uniting Reikland. One of the wealthiest provinces on the map, very close to home (so easy to wage war on while still defending Reikland) and not particularly friendly with any of the loyalist provinces.

IIRC Talabecland are one of the easiest provinces to confederate, so if you leave them alone + be nice to them you can still expand fairly bloodlessly in that direction too. Averland gives you a nice corridor towards Sylvania but it also gives you a long border exposed to Karak Norn, who are maybe the second most annoyingly aggressive Dawi faction (after Karak Hirn) and will come and start burning your villages because some peasant shortchanged their grandad in a pub. Skarsnik starts up in those mountains too so if the dwarfs don't come for you the gobbos might.

Been a long time since I played an Empire campaign though so maybe I misremember entirely. Now that WH2 is out I'm lizards 4 lyf :smallbiggrin:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thanks, LCP! Your advice is always solid! After I'm done with the Empire I may come bugging you for Lizardmen advice. :smallredface:

[Spacewolf]

So how are you supposed to play as Norsica in WH2? All the other races from one are there but I can't seem to find them.

[Vitruviansquid]

You cannot play Norsca in Warhammer 2 because Norsca was developed alongside Mortal Empires by two separate teams, and for some reason, the two teams never thought to check in with each other about compatibility.

Norsca will eventually be implemented into Mortal Empires when the inconsistencies have been worked out, but it won't be coming in the Reprisal patch that is currently in beta.

[boomwolf]

Probably in about two weeks, along with the next LL (probably itik)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Who's Itik? :smallconfused:

[thorgrim29]

I think he means Ikit Claw, AKA rat! Doctor Doom.

[Misery Esquire]

(probably itik)

Would they DARE not have it be the great, powerful, amazing, magical, clever, intelligent, loyal, great, radium warpstone snorting THANQUOL?!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would they DARE not have it be the great, powerful, amazing, magical, clever, intelligent, loyal, great, radium warpstone snorting THANQUOL?!

I think that might just make nastier fans start howling that Gotrek and Felix weren't added as hero units or something...

[boomwolf]

Would they DARE not have it be the great, powerful, amazing, magical, clever, intelligent, loyal, great, radium warpstone snorting THANQUOL?!


Nope, the ratling gun is missing-and its obviously coming with Ikit, so he's the next LL.

Plus, it places a skaven LL around the "old world" territories, giving them what they wanted with mortal empires causing you to have old and new world factions butt heads.

[Vitruviansquid]

On the one hand, I think some of the missing units like Shadow Warriors and Ratling Guns would be really cool to have ingame.

On the other hand, I really dislike being sold units as DLC.

[Grytorm]

Hmm, questions. I know that in TW Warhammer 2 each faction has a unique resource, does the first game have the same sort of set up?
Second, I understand one major difference is that in the original their were restrictions on where you could conquer but in Total War 2 instead a climate system was implemented. Has that been backported to the normal Total War Warhammer campaign, what about to Mortal Empires?

[boomwolf]

Unique resource? as in for the ritual?

TWW1 has nothing of the sorts, and ME don't even have the TWW2 ones (it would break the game a bit)

As for climate system, yes for ME (for everyone), but no for TWW1 vanilla.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It doesn't look like anyone's mentioned this but...THE TOMB KINGS HAVE AWOKEN! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpWqKme-g_4)

[boomwolf]

Honestly, I'd more anticipating Ikit as the next LL than any care I give for the tomb kings, hopefully he comes soon.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Hmm, questions. I know that in TW Warhammer 2 each faction has a unique resource, does the first game have the same sort of set up?
Second, I understand one major difference is that in the original their were restrictions on where you could conquer but in Total War 2 instead a climate system was implemented. Has that been backported to the normal Total War Warhammer campaign, what about to Mortal Empires?

To be more clear;

TW:WH 1 hasn't changed at all from TW WH 2 mechanics, no mechanics have been back-ported. Each faction does have some unique mechanics, but not all a unique resource. Empire is afaik the simplest, Dwarves have to not gain too many Grudges, Vampires have their money re-skinned as "dark magic", and can either use that or the dead from previous battles to raise soldiers, Bretonnians gain Chivalry and have to balance the amount of Peasant troops in their army, Wood Elves gain Amber and have to spend it for their powerful units (depending on which lord you pick), and so-on.

Mortal Empires is played in TW:WH 2. There is no Vortex, so I'm unsure as to whether the new factions care about their old unique resources anymore. But it does have the climate system, same as Vortex.

[Vitruviansquid]

To be more clear;

TW:WH 1 hasn't changed at all from TW WH 2 mechanics, no mechanics have been back-ported. Each faction does have some unique mechanics, but not all a unique resource. Empire is afaik the simplest, Dwarves have to not gain too many Grudges, Vampires have their money re-skinned as "dark magic", and can either use that or the dead from previous battles to raise soldiers, Bretonnians gain Chivalry and have to balance the amount of Peasant troops in their army, Wood Elves gain Amber and have to spend it for their powerful units (depending on which lord you pick), and so-on.

Mortal Empires is played in TW:WH 2. There is no Vortex, so I'm unsure as to whether the new factions care about their old unique resources anymore. But it does have the climate system, same as Vortex.

You do not have to care about way-fragments, scrolls of hekarti, warpstone, or tablets any longer in Mortal empires.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Honestly, I'd more anticipating Ikit as the next LL than any care I give for the tomb kings, hopefully he comes soon.
I hope he shows up. He'll probably have a sweet bonus to DOOMWHEELS!!! since he invented them! :smallbiggrin:

[Grytorm]

Well I got the game for myself, the first version in the Old World. Pretty fun so far. Playing as dwarfs for now, restarted once because I could tell I could be doing a lot better, I wasted a lot of time the first time around when I didn't understand provincial unrest. So second time around at the point I quit I have better income, better armies, and three additional settlements. The only place I am behind is in tech structures at the capital, because quite a few places need to be built up.

[Olinser]

Well I got the game for myself, the first version in the Old World. Pretty fun so far. Playing as dwarfs for now, restarted once because I could tell I could be doing a lot better, I wasted a lot of time the first time around when I didn't understand provincial unrest. So second time around at the point I quit I have better income, better armies, and three additional settlements. The only place I am behind is in tech structures at the capital, because quite a few places need to be built up.

Unrest is actually beneficial though.

If you're paying attention at all you'll know exactly when a rebellion is going to occur and can have a Lord there to kill it immediately - and in the early game its a huge bonus to have rebellions because they give you a large infusion of gold and 1-2 levels on a Lord.

[Grytorm]

That makes sense, mostly my problems came down to poor time management with my first attempt, rebellions just added to that problem. Things proceed okay, lost a largish army to the undead. Still counts as a glorious victory however. Rebuilding will unfortunately take a while. The campaign against the grobi and the urk in the south is slowing down, I should recruit a third lord I think so I can push forward while holding off raiders.

[Olinser]

That makes sense, mostly my problems came down to poor time management with my first attempt, rebellions just added to that problem. Things proceed okay, lost a largish army to the undead. Still counts as a glorious victory however. Rebuilding will unfortunately take a while. The campaign against the grobi and the urk in the south is slowing down, I should recruit a third lord I think so I can push forward while holding off raiders.

I mean the big thing to understand about the Warhammer Total War is how to exploit the rather odd unit and combat resolution and casualties.

Namely, you only actually 'lose' units if you actually lose all of them in a fight. So the ideal way to tackle fights is to withdraw troops before they actually get below about 1/4 health to make sure you don't actually lose a unit(as long as that doesn't make you lose the fight). I've actually found its ideal to include in your main armies 1 of the heroes that has the increased Casualty Replenishment rate - in a town with a hero with 3 points in the Casualty Replenishment you can go from almost dead health to full in 2-3 turns.

The auto-resolve is also both really terrible and really good. It's terrible from a perspective that it dramatically over-values certain stats (ranged weapons and armor), and massively under-values other stats (magic/poison attacks, heroes, magic and fear). This means that frequently auto-resolve will make you lose combats that you can literally select all and right-click the closest enemy to win with a decisive victory.

It's really good from a perspective that if you significantly out-number the enemy, auto-resolve will let you win with almost zero casualties, in fact far fewer than you can actually pull off by fighting normally.

So auto-resolve is actually really useful when doing things like assaulting non-walled towns with a full army because it will let you lose significantly less casualties than normal.

[Cespenar]

Unrest is actually beneficial though.

If you're paying attention at all you'll know exactly when a rebellion is going to occur and can have a Lord there to kill it immediately - and in the early game its a huge bonus to have rebellions because they give you a large infusion of gold and 1-2 levels on a Lord.

Wait, you have Lords that aren't taking a city each turn? Apart from those that are moving to get in range of a city? :smalltongue:

Joking aside, that does seem like a good strategy at early game.

[Blackhawk748]

So i gave Vlad a whirl, good lord him and Isabella are terrifying. I dropped both of them with half a stack of almost nothing but Bats, Skeleton warriors (the basic ones) and Zombies on Templehof and i face rolled them with little issue. I mean, ya, the Vargheists where helpful, but they didnt completely reshape the battle, Vlad and Isabella are just that good as force multipliers, especially when together.

Plus i cannot understate how great it is to buy a LL on turn 1.

[Grytorm]

Well I started again again. I tend to do that... Hopefully this will be the last time :smallredface:. Mostly grudges started to get out of control because of the undead, delayed getting involved with my northern neighbors. Now I have started obsessively thinking about what buildings I should build in regional capitals. Discovered that one type doesn't need higher ranks unless it goes with a different building, so that will free up space in the capital for something.

Edit: Well the chaos invasion thing is starting, which so far doesn't seem to bad. Well, so far I have only seen a few stacks in the South. Greenskins mostly taken care of, a few stray groups here and there plus uprisings. As for uprisings, those are a bit out of hand... but things will work themselves out. Probably send one of the armies around to squash them I guess as soon as they return from the now desolate vampire kingdoms. Also, capital now almost at level 5.

[Forum Explorer]

I recently finished the Lizardmen run for the Vortex campaign. Here are some thoughts:

1. Lizardmen are awesome.
2. Skaven kinda suck/are really easy to beat.
3. High Elf's are OP. Despite the ritual penalties they had better relations with my neighbors then I did.
4. High Elves are really OP. They have no hostile neighbors. I had to fight off Dark Elves and Skaven while they get to sit pretty and just confederate the whole island together.
5. They are so OP, they have actual special fortress cities that are hard to get past in order to actually get to the cities that matter.
6. If you aren't playing High Elves, be ready to interfere with their rituals. They won't fail them otherwise, and the computer certainly isn't equipped to do anything about them. I ended up having to interfere with the same ritual twice in order to get a lead.
7. The final battle is dead easy. I think my LL could have solo'd it. A full stack of 20 elite units made it a cakewalk.


I think I'll do a Dark Elf Super Campaign next. I've got some...issues to 'discuss' with the High Elves. :smallwink:

[Anteros]

Any tips for a new player who isn't particularly enjoying the game? I want to like it and I keep starting new games, but everything is just too convoluted and slow. It seems like there's a billion random rules to learn about every new situation that you only find through trial and error. A lot of it is the fact that I'm completely new to the Total War series.

Also, everything is just too slow. It takes forever for anything interesting to happen. Even battles feel tedious. Maybe this series just isn't for me.

[Olinser]

I recently finished the Lizardmen run for the Vortex campaign. Here are some thoughts:

1. Lizardmen are awesome.
2. Skaven kinda suck/are really easy to beat.
3. High Elf's are OP. Despite the ritual penalties they had better relations with my neighbors then I did.
4. High Elves are really OP. They have no hostile neighbors. I had to fight off Dark Elves and Skaven while they get to sit pretty and just confederate the whole island together.
5. They are so OP, they have actual special fortress cities that are hard to get past in order to actually get to the cities that matter.
6. If you aren't playing High Elves, be ready to interfere with their rituals. They won't fail them otherwise, and the computer certainly isn't equipped to do anything about them. I ended up having to interfere with the same ritual twice in order to get a lead.
7. The final battle is dead easy. I think my LL could have solo'd it. A full stack of 20 elite units made it a cakewalk.


I think I'll do a Dark Elf Super Campaign next. I've got some...issues to 'discuss' with the High Elves. :smallwink:

Skaven don't suck. The AI just sucks with Skaven because it is incapable of playing to their strengths and the auto-resolve is ludicrously biased against Skaven because of the nature of their army. Early Skaven are good because they're incredibly cheap to buy and maintain units so you can get a 20 stack army on your first lord incredibly cheaply and quickly. Level 1 units of Skavenslaves only cost 125 gold each with an upkeep of 19!!, and Clanrats are only 325 with an upkeep of 81. (compared, for instance, to the level 1 Dark Elf units of Bleakspears and Darkshards costing 450 and 600 with an upkeep of 112 and 150 each. Replace casualties when a unit is low health? Screw that noise just disband them and recruit a new 100% unit. Enemy brings 2 Lords of units? Bitch please, Skaven bring 4+ to the party at a time and still have 8 more on the other side of the map taking cities.

The AI can't do this. It just builds normal-sized (for other nations) armies of Skaven and wanders around with 1 lord at a time, which gets SLAUGHTERED if they are anywhere close to even in number with any other nation until the late game. They rarely survive past the early game because they can't take enemy towns and lose auto-resolves

When you get to late game Skaven top tier units get non-disposable, but they can hold their own against other armies and their war machines are incredibly good if used properly.

Late game Skaven artillery and archers are ludicrous - Gutter Runners can fire while moving and are fast, basically nothing but cavalry is going to catch them until they empty their entire ammo into something. Plagueclaw catapults are one of the best artillery in the game, and ideal strategy is just to throw away units of Skavenslaves to keep enemy in place while you annihilate the whole ball with artillery or just ram a Doomwheel into them. Who cares if the meat shield dies? Spend a few hundred gold and buy more.

That's basically the Skaven strategy. Tar pit them with disposable units while machines and strong units wipe them out strategically with acceptable disposable casualties. But again, the AI is incapable of doing this, unfortunately. So AI Skaven are a bad joke.

[Forum Explorer]

That's basically the Skaven strategy. Tar pit them with disposable units while machines and strong units wipe them out strategically with acceptable disposable casualties. But again, the AI is incapable of doing this, unfortunately. So AI Skaven are a bad joke.

Makes sense. That was the strategy on the table top too. In fact they were the only army in the game that could shoot into close combat, and would do exactly that, tie units up with slaves then unload with heavy weaponry.

Okay, so I can accept that AI Skaven are garbage even if the units themselves are not. It's like Eldar in Battlefleet Gothic. The Eldar AI was so bad, it was useless against other AI units. But the faction themselves were very strong, if extremely difficult to use.

[Blackhawk748]

I recently finished the Lizardmen run for the Vortex campaign. Here are some thoughts:

1. Lizardmen are awesome.
2. Skaven kinda suck/are really easy to beat.
3. High Elf's are OP. Despite the ritual penalties they had better relations with my neighbors then I did.
4. High Elves are really OP. They have no hostile neighbors. I had to fight off Dark Elves and Skaven while they get to sit pretty and just confederate the whole island together.
5. They are so OP, they have actual special fortress cities that are hard to get past in order to actually get to the cities that matter.
6. If you aren't playing High Elves, be ready to interfere with their rituals. They won't fail them otherwise, and the computer certainly isn't equipped to do anything about them. I ended up having to interfere with the same ritual twice in order to get a lead.
7. The final battle is dead easy. I think my LL could have solo'd it. A full stack of 20 elite units made it a cakewalk.


I think I'll do a Dark Elf Super Campaign next. I've got some...issues to 'discuss' with the High Elves. :smallwink:

Ya, Skaven have problems as your armies are capped at 20 units (this is stupid and needs to stop being a thing) Which is why, outside the early game, i have my army move in pairs.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Honestly, having your armies travel in pairs has been solid policy for ANY Total War installment.

[Olinser]

Honestly, having your armies travel in pairs has been solid policy for ANY Total War installment.

Except Skaven in this installment. As you get towards late game if you aren't traveling in 3-5, you're probably going to lose.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly, having your armies travel in pairs has been solid policy for ANY Total War installment.

Then apparently i play weird, cuz this is the first time i've done it for anything longer than a singular push.

[Vaz]

Then apparently i play weird, cuz this is the first time i've done it for anything longer than a singular push.

Pretty much, yeah. Most games are solved by a single doomstack, and just defending your homeland with walled cities, building and disbanding armies as funds allow to extend borders up to the next walled city to train a replacement general.

[LCP]

I never used doomblobs of multiple armies in my Queek playthrough. The food mechanic strongly incentivises you to keep your # of armies low.

Generally I had 1 army per active warfront + 1 army in reserve that I could commit as reinforcements vs any force that my armies in the field couldn't handle solo (e.g. kroq-gar with a full stack of dinos). That was enough.

[Grim Portent]

I tend to have a few elite armies running around with some cheap ones running about the expanding areas of my territory bopping rebellions, garrisoning important cities or providing backup for the real armies as needed. Didn't really try it with Skaven much as I just didn't really get into them last time I tried, but it's usually how I wind up playing.

Usually have 2 elite forces focus on one enemy while my others mostly focus on not losing ground elsewhere. 2 elite armies working together is basically unstoppable and lets me blitz through enemies so fast I sometimes struggle not to lose stuff to rebels in the wake of their rampage.

[Grytorm]

Yeah the elite armies plus non elite armies for stuff seems good. One problem I had with my dwarves was that I wanted to move the elites North sooner rather than later, and so they got led by a low level newly recruited lord.

Also experimenting with Vampire Counts. They are kind of cool, but definitely feel harder than the dwarves. No one wants to be my friend and the economic buildings don't feel as powerful. Also I have to actually adapt my tactics, which is why I went for the change in the first place. Also looked at Brettonia, but their buildings looked complicated.

[Spacewolf]

Yeah the elite armies plus non elite armies for stuff seems good. One problem I had with my dwarves was that I wanted to move the elites North sooner rather than later, and so they got led by a low level newly recruited lord.

Also experimenting with Vampire Counts. They are kind of cool, but definitely feel harder than the dwarves. No one wants to be my friend and the economic buildings don't feel as powerful. Also I have to actually adapt my tactics, which is why I went for the change in the first place. Also looked at Brettonia, but their buildings looked complicated.

Yea there's definitely a reason why if the Dwarfs don't get wiped out very early by a greenskin waagh army they end up dominating everyone around them.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah the elite armies plus non elite armies for stuff seems good. One problem I had with my dwarves was that I wanted to move the elites North sooner rather than later, and so they got led by a low level newly recruited lord.

Also experimenting with Vampire Counts. They are kind of cool, but definitely feel harder than the dwarves. No one wants to be my friend and the economic buildings don't feel as powerful. Also I have to actually adapt my tactics, which is why I went for the change in the first place. Also looked at Brettonia, but their buildings looked complicated.

Ya, you won't be making friends as the Vamps. The up side is, Sylvania and the surrounding Vamp land is a solid starting point and Vampiric corruption eats away your enemies. Plus you can rez your troops and Zombies are stupid cheap and very useful.

[Grim Portent]

In Mortal Empires what's peoples preferred way to deal with Chaos in the Old World?

Playing as vampires I had an issue with the three mook chaos armies beelining for my lands after Archaon spawned and making it hard to keep my lands in Bretonnia and the Empire safe from the north, west and south all at once and Chaos corruption ruining my often delicate corruption balance leading to wanton rebellions while I was also trying to conquer Ulthuan.

I'm considering taking and reinforcing Goromadny Mountains early on to catch Archaon at spawn and cut the head off before things go to far, but I was wondering if anyone had any preferred methods.

[Blackhawk748]

In Mortal Empires what's peoples preferred way to deal with Chaos in the Old World?

Playing as vampires I had an issue with the three mook chaos armies beelining for my lands after Archaon spawned and making it hard to keep my lands in Bretonnia and the Empire safe from the north, west and south all at once and Chaos corruption ruining my often delicate corruption balance leading to wanton rebellions while I was also trying to conquer Ulthuan.

I'm considering taking and reinforcing Goromadny Mountains early on to catch Archaon at spawn and cut the head off before things go to far, but I was wondering if anyone had any preferred methods.

The usual strategy i hear people recommend is leave an AI faction in between you and him. They'll bleed Chaos for you and then you can rush in and finish him off.

[Grytorm]

I just don't see why people don't like vampires, we just want to trade for blood and wine. And its not like I can do anything with the dwarfen lands. QQ.

For dwarfs, they have a lot of strengths definitely. Nice defensive core territory, easy trade deals. Troops that do troop things. Reasonable mobility on the world map.

[LCP]

To deal with Chaos in Mortal Empires you gotta go kill Archie or the waves will just keep coming. I sent two armies to hunt him down while the rest of my armies defensively patrolled my borders to hold back the waves. Particularly if you have coastal borders, walled towns and Lightning Strike or high ambush chance on your generals, you can use asymmetric warfare to hold back the incursions with a much lower number of your own troops.

[Grytorm]

Things proceed. The greenskin threat has ended once and for all. Except for one little bit. But they are mostly gone. The provinces are getting to be really highly developed. My legendary lord is level 21 and has two of his legendary items. I have six armies in the field, two are in the north preparing to push into the Norscan tribes. Currently they are staring at Wintertooth's legendary lord. The other four are at the edges of the three chaos doomstacks. Unfortunately the Grudgebearer's army is mostly depleted from my first real battle with chaos.

I merged my units together, and now I'm not certain if it was worthwhile because they were high tier units and will take a while to replace.

[Vaz]

Is anyone else absolutely hyped for Tomb Kings. I'm absolutely torn between Arkhan or Khalida, but I love the Necroknights and Sepulchral Stalkers and I'm thinking that is the way forward, but then again, crushing the Druchii under the bones of Khatep seems like a fun campaign (and tbf, just completed a Malekith Campaign, so less fussed to get back i to that area).

Also, the necrosphinx might quite possibly top the Shaggoth or Skin Wolves for being my favourite unit of the game to date.

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm terribly psyched for Tomb Kings. It looks like they're piled up with experimental mechanics that can end up growing these games in a major way or be horrifying suckfests.

[Olinser]

I'm terribly psyched for Tomb Kings. It looks like they're piled up with experimental mechanics that can end up growing these games in a major way or be horrifying suckfests.

So just like releasing a new codex for the tabletop game then.

It's really impressive how they've captured the spirit of new releases.

[Blackhawk748]

So just like releasing a new codex for the tabletop game then.

It's really impressive how they've captured the spirit of new releases.

And are, rather ironically, much better at it than GW. Though being willing to actually fix the issues as they come up is great.

[Vaz]

And are, rather ironically, much better at it than GW. Though being willing to actually fix the issues as they come up is great.

If you let me know when my units will follow my orders without randomly stopping that would be great :).

But joking aside, Norsca when? Gimme my Skin Wolf hordes. May is a very long way away.

[Olinser]

If you let me know when my units will follow my orders without randomly stopping that would be great :).

But joking aside, Norsca when? Gimme my Skin Wolf hordes. May is a very long way away.

They don't randomly stop - they drop orders when engaged by an enemy unit, no matter how small. Which, yes, is extremely annoying, but predictable.

[boomwolf]

If you let me know when my units will follow my orders without randomly stopping that would be great :).

But joking aside, Norsca when? Gimme my Skin Wolf hordes. May is a very long way away.


Probably with tomb kings.

It will be REALLY dumb to release a new faction when you still got one that isn't working.



Though I must say, I'm very disappointed by the new skaven LL. I was expecting ikit or maybe thanquol, not this nobody.

[LCP]

In all fairness, being better at patching your game than GW is like being better at maths than a horse.

[Blackhawk748]

In all fairness, being better at patching your game than GW is like being better at maths than a horse.

Hey, hey, i never said it was a high bar :smalltongue:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I restarted my Old World campaign as the Empire and am now around the same period I was the last time, and I'm wondering how rough Archaon's arrival is going to be.

This time, instead of sitting in Reikland and waiting for people to unify with me, I went aggressive right away, conquering Averland, Wissenland and Stirland after unifying Reikland, and then began building them up and protecting them until the first Chaos hordes rolled into town. I was able to unify with Middenland which not only got me Boris Todbringer (THE MAN! THE LEGEND!) as a general, but also Marienburg to boot, since Todbringer had conquered it while I'd been unifying the south! I ended up restoring Talabecland just after beating back Chaos, but now Archaon has emerged in the Chaos Wastes, and there is literally nothing between my territories and him. Karl Franz has a full solid army in Talabheim, which has only just been rebuilt, meaning it doesn't have much of a garrison to back his army up if multiple Chaos hordes show up, as I haven't gotten Franz to Lightning Strike yet, and since Talabheim is my furthest out territory (Hergig is still in ruins from the last invasion), Archaon is going to make a bee-line for it with everything he's got.

I have a second, more defensive army made up Spearmen with Shields, Swordsmen, Crossbowmen and Mortars, but it's tied up in Grenzstadt because the Border Princes decided to start a stupid war with Thorgrim Grudgebearer, and I got dragged into it as an ally. Mostly they've been laying siege to Grenzstadt, and then retreating when I "attack" to drive them off, but their army is stronger than mine in the field, so I can't stomp this invasion without the aid of Grenzstadt's garrison. I do have another, smaller army with Balthasar Gelt I've been in the process of building in Reikland, but it isn't a full stack yet, so I'm hesitant to send it to Talabheim to back up Franz or perhaps to rebuild Hergig, though that would effectively chop the army in half and force them to replenish as the town is still weak.

So...how boned am I now that Archaon's cutscene has played and there's just ruins he can zoom through between him and me? :smalleek:

[Guancyto]

Shield of Civilization will make the Border Princes and Dwarfs knock that off right quick, so that should free up one of your armies.

Archaeon seems to have a whole lot less Chosen in his armies than he used to (when I fought him as Empire he only had two units of it) and a whole lot more Chaos Warriors, and the other armies seem to have exclusively Chaos Warriors, so your infantry should be able to hold up pretty well. The cost of this is of course that there are a pile of extra Chaos factions that also invade, one of which will invade Britannia. So... hope the Bretons have been having a good game?

If I'm reading you right, you have:
Karl Franz, with a full stack of good units
Boris Todbringer, with an AI-built army (so probably basic units)
Balthazar Gelt, with a partial stack of good units
Some other jerk, with a full stack of basic units

That should be all you need to win, if you pick your engagements wisely.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's mostly correct. I allied with Louis almost as soon as I could, and he's kept Bretonnia pretty stable as far as I can tell. He's been keeping the Beastmen off my back, which has been quite helpful.

Todbringer actually barely has any army left. He managed to confederate or conquer most of the northerly parts of the Empire like Hochland and stuff, so it was HIS armies that took the brunt of the first Chaos attack, especially since Wulfrik the Wanderer showed up on his flank and torched Nordland just before I confederate with Todbringer. So he's only got, like 4 units left in his actual army. I'm depending on the garrison defenses I've added to Middenheim, which are at full strength, to help untiI finish building Gelt's forces, at which point I'll shift focus to rebuilding Todbringer's army to the point where it can defend the north and reclaim what the Norscans destroyed.

I also have Volkmar the Grim, who has a tiny army at the moment consisting of a Light Wizard, The Tattersouls and three more units of Flaggelants (they're needed for a future quest of his), the Templehoff Luminark and I think the Hammer of Witches Great Cannon. I basically sent him to rebuild Gorssel so the Wasteland could be a complete province again, and I feel that after I have a capable defensive army under Todbringer, I can focus on filling Volkmar out with a more offense-focused army.

So, given what I have, I should be able to weather Archaon's storm without too much trouble. Thankfully all my dwarf allies have the Greenskins tied up, and the Vampire Counts have behaved themselves and not tried to conquer Averland or the Moot (they even offered to ally with me against Archaon, but I'm avoiding that because when Volkmar has levelled enough to start his quests, I'll be required to basically purge Sylvania of all Vampire factions).

I don't even know WHY the Border Princes decided to get in a war with the Dwarfs. The Dwarfs are too heavily entrenched for them to have any hope of winning and since this is the first game, they can't settle in dwarf/greenskin territories anyway!

Thank you for the advice!

EDIT: And he's not "some other jerk!" He's Mornan Tybalt, the Empire's loyal Treasurer since the beginning of the game! :smalltongue:

[Grim Portent]

So when playing Malekith or Morathi in MEs, yay or nay on rushing Ulthuan as early as possible?

It seems sensible to me to rush the HElves before Tyrion can get too powerful and so you can claim the various landmarks there, while rushing the DElves minor factions just gets you stuff you can get later through confederation.

[Olinser]

So when playing Malekith or Morathi in MEs, yay or nay on rushing Ulthuan as early as possible?

It seems sensible to me to rush the HElves before Tyrion can get too powerful and so you can claim the various landmarks there, while rushing the DElves minor factions just gets you stuff you can get later through confederation.

Kind of depends. I go north myself and wipe out Chaos because they're super annoying and with them gone you can basically ignore the entire northwest because there's no threat there outside ritual spawns.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've weathered Archaon's assault and came out okay, though now arguably things have gotten more irritating now that he's gone.

After the Warriors of Chaos faction was wiped out, my southerly neighbors got right back to fighting: Tilea and the Wood Elves fighting Bretonnia, and the Border Princes fighting the Dwarfs, and dragging me into war with them. Couple that with the Vampire Counts getting uppity again, and I've got a rough future, especially since, again, Karl Franz is really the only army worth its salt, and Treasurer Mornan Tybalt is dashing to Wissenland but he's probably not going to be enough to fend off two full stacks of Wood Elves. Balthasar Gelt's army is still only at half-capacity, with 4 Halberdiers, 4 Handgunners, and 4 Artillery. Thankfully, Mornan has maxed Lightning Strike, so hopefully his own army and a garrison can survive long enough for Franz to get down there. Boris Todbringer's army was destroyed by Wulfrik the Wanderer, but thankfully Todbringer himself was just wounded and he's back now. Volkmar the Grim has suffered similarly.

What's worse is that now Bretonnia has taken land from us. The town of Dieterschafen was first taken from the Empire by Norsca while Archaon was hammering the east. Then Manfred von Carstein took it from the Norscans because he was trying to get a foothold outside Sylvania and took advantage of getting Military Access from me to get up there (what can I say, he was opposed to Chaos, and I didn't need two enemies attacking at once). And THEN Alberic de Bordeleaux took Dieterschafen from the Vampire Counts, since they were my allies and had military access too. So now one of the Empire's territories is stuck in the hands of an ally that I don't really want to turn on.

I hope I can get another army properly bolstered before I head south and teach those Tileans and Border Princes a lesson.

[Sinewmire]

Started a new campaign as Alvdnov Renastic Vlad von Castein. Is it worth trying to confederate Mannfred? I'd love having him on my team, but I could really do with taking my rightful Capital city back.

[Grim Portent]

Started a new campaign as Alvdnov Renastic Vlad von Castein. Is it worth trying to confederate Mannfred? I'd love having him on my team, but I could really do with taking my rightful Capital city back.

I'd say it's worth confederating. Drakenhof is good, but Mannfred is well worth getting if you can. He's nearly as good a beatstick as Vlad and a much better character sniper. The potential to snag Kemmler and Ghorst is also a bonus.

Vlad can easily storm Stirland or Averheim with a stack of skeletons and get you set up early, or you can rush Templehof and take full control of W. Sylvania.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

On the flipside, is it worth confederating with Vlad if you're Manfred? I understand Vlad and Isabella's usefulness, though at the same time it makes little sense as they're still obviously mad that Manfred backstabbed them.

[Grim Portent]

Vlad is really good as an infantry and siege specialist, I always get him when possible. It's not hard to do so and his town isn't worth conquering anyway.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Vlad is really good as an infantry and siege specialist, I always get him when possible. It's not hard to do so and his town isn't worth conquering anyway.
Is there an in-character reason for WHY Vlad and Isabella would work for the upstart traitor, Mannfred?

[Grim Portent]

Is there an in-character reason for WHY Vlad and Isabella would work for the upstart traitor, Mannfred?

Well Mannfred never actually betrayed them, none of their servants did while they were alive. Prior to V and I dying the Von Carsteins more or less got along because of how loyal they were to their leaders out of a combination of familial love, respect and fear.

Vlad died after the Empire hired a master thief to steal his ring and an Elector Count tackled him and dived off a city wall (at Averheim as I recall) onto some wooden palisade spikes, killing them both. Isabella then decided to walk into the rising sun rather than live without Vlad.

After that the most powerful of Vlad's servants squabbled over leadership, with Konrad his insane attack dog child becoming the new Vampire Count of Sylvania after murdering his competition while Mannfred stepped back and went off to study magic and make bargains only returning after Konrad got betrayed and abandoned by his necromancers before a battle and wound up dead.

Apart from End Times Mannfred never had to deal with a restored Vlad and at the time both were under a restored Nagash anway, but he did resent Vlad more or less naturally becoming leader of the Sylvanian vampires again. How Vlad felt about him I am unsure.



For TW:WH2 purposes Vlad and Isabella have basically just stepped back up from being dust and moved into Sylvania again with minimal plot involved. How Vlad would have actually reacted to coming back after hundreds of years dead and finding one of his favoured sons as a more powerful mage now ruling an even more decrepit Sylvania is pretty up in the air. How Mannfred would respond to Vlad coming back is also pretty up in the air. Both naturally want to be top dog, but to an extent vampires have a natural instinct for heirarchy and these two at the least respected each other prior to Vlad's death. I'd be inclined to think Mannfred would step aside for Vlad, at least in the short term, because Vlad is his sire and very charismatic and powerful, his return would upset all of Mannfred's powerbase and make swearing fealty a pragmatic move if nothing else.

Then of course you have to add in that Archaon is coming, something that both would probably have an inkling of quite early and would consider something more important than any personal rivalry.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm confused. I was under the impression that the Empire hired that master thief because Mannfred TOLD them the ring needed to be stolen to defeat Vlad because Mannfred had been plotting against Vlad from day one. :smallconfused:

[Grim Portent]

I'm confused. I was under the impression that the Empire hired that master thief because Mannfred TOLD them the ring needed to be stolen to defeat Vlad because Mannfred had been plotting against Vlad from day one. :smallconfused:

I don't recall that being in my VCs codex, but it might have been in a supplementary bit of stuff or a different edition's codex. It would make sense I guess. Mannfred was one of Sylvania's scheming nobles before being turned, I just assumed he was loyal like Konrad.

It would require Vlad to find out about it before he'd be mad at Mannfred rather than the Empire though, and Mannfred is a good liar.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see! Thank you for the clarification! :smallsmile:

[Grim Portent]

I think ultimately if Vlad came back without Nagash or similar ruling the roost Mannfred's first thoughts would be to quietly kill him, then he'd hesitate because Vlad was a better fighter than him and would easily gather a lot of support and kill Mannfred if things didn't go as Mannfred planned, then he'd either run away to wait and see what happens from a safe distance or he'd hand over the reins to Vlad and try to work things out from there.

Vlad was a statesman and a master warrior and general, Mannfred is a scheming wizard first and foremost, direct confrontation isn't his thing. When Konrad was fighting with their brothers over who got to replace Vlad Mannfred chose to go away rather than fight Konrad because he had good reason to think he'd fail in that confrontation.

[Sinewmire]

I don't recall that being in my VCs codex, but it might have been in a supplementary bit of stuff or a different edition's codex. It would make sense I guess. Mannfred was one of Sylvania's scheming nobles before being turned, I just assumed he was loyal like Konrad.

It would require Vlad to find out about it before he'd be mad at Mannfred rather than the Empire though, and Mannfred is a good liar.

It's true! See the first Von Carstein novel. Nobody ever asked what happened to thief afterwards, or how the ring came to be in the hands of the Vampires.

Or how Mannfred got it afterwards.

The book is pretty decent actually - Vlad is just *awesome* in it.

[Olinser]

It's true! See the first Von Carstein novel. Nobody ever asked what happened to thief afterwards, or how the ring came to be in the hands of the Vampires.

Or how Mannfred got it afterwards.

The book is pretty decent actually - Vlad is just *awesome* in it.

One of the later books covered it. If I recall correctly the church removed his tongue and arms and kept the ring. Mannfred was able to locate the thief and eventually the ring because the church was too stupid and greedy to destroy it.

[Spacewolf]

So after crushing everyone with no effort at all in my lizardmen game I tried out chaos to see if they'd changed it much since the first game. I made it to I think turn 10-15 before I was getting hit by endless full stacks of Vargs, Longboat Norse and Kislev who were hunting me from outside their own territories. So basically the same as ever.

[Grim Portent]

After a long and drawn out war the Pleasure Cult rules Ulthuan. I remain opposed by the nearby beastmen, the Norscans north of Naggarond and the Lizardmen. As yet the Old World factions and I have minimal contact, but Athel Loren beckons to me.

After securing Ulthuan I sent a Black Ark south to find Teclis and forge an alliance, the Shrine of Asuryan made it easy to ally with him. Unfortunately he's made no progress against his neighbours in the past 100 turns.

Malekith is struggling against the Norscans and Beastmen, but still refuses to confederate, apparently on the strength of Malekith alone. When he's wounded I can confederate easily, but then I don't get him as a lord.

My current goals are to help Teclis break his way Northward to help me against the Lizardmen, claim the Northern wastelands to bolster my economy and get ready to attack the Old World.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Just so all are aware, there's a Free-LC that was released today along with the Tomb Kings! Tretch Craventail has been revealed as the Skaven's newest Legendary Lord, leading Clan Rictus in Naggaroth.

[Spacewolf]

Just so all are aware, there's a Free-LC that was released today along with the Tomb Kings! Tretch Craventail has been revealed as the Skaven's newest Legendary Lord, leading Clan Rictus in Naggaroth.

Hmm Skaven vs norse would be pretty fun considering they're both pretty soft. I think my games is having some sort of update issue though I'm in the 1.2.0V build is there a more recent one than that?

[Grim Portent]

Giving Arkhan a quick test run, actually slightly dissapointed by how limited his VC unit options are, even if I understand why they're so limited I think it would have been better to give him some units that could actually change how his armies fight rather than ones with such a strong overlap with normal TKs units. Bats and dire wolves don't really do anything TKs don't already do, and ghouls are really just a sidegrade from skeletons. Hexwraiths are a neat thing to have and might work well as part of a cavalry/chariot army once I get properly going.

Nehekaran mechanics seem interesting but also potentially really frustrating where the economy is concerned. Also scorpions don't have siege attacker, which is a pretty major irritant for me since they're monsters and I like my 0 turn sieges. The inability to easily ressurect dead combatants is going to make things odd compared to VCs, and might be part of why I'm not super into this run so far. TKs don't have the same immortal wall of meat and bone clawing down the living feel that I like. Still they have archers and siege weapons, two things which the VCs lack, so maybe I'll get more into them as time passes.

EDIT: I almost feel Arkhan would work better as a VCs army with a lot of Nehekharan mechanics and a unit roster that's a mix of the two, because the more independant TKs castes hate him and necromancers and vampires covet his power and knowledge, so him having VCs heroes would make far more sense to me than him having TKs heroes, or at least necromancers instead of liche priests, and his knowledge of the magics of Nagash would make him more likely to draw the same sorts of minions as a Vampire would. Really he just seems to lack Necromancy in general for the acolyte of the Great Necromancer.

[Blackhawk748]

Just so all are aware, there's a Free-LC that was released today along with the Tomb Kings! Tretch Craventail has been revealed as the Skaven's newest Legendary Lord, leading Clan Rictus in Naggaroth.

Intriguing, how difficult is he labeled as?

[Forum Explorer]

Just so all are aware, there's a Free-LC that was released today along with the Tomb Kings! Tretch Craventail has been revealed as the Skaven's newest Legendary Lord, leading Clan Rictus in Naggaroth.

Not Thanqol? Who do I have to sacrifice to the Horned Rat to get him? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

Not Thanqol? Who do I have to sacrifice to the Horned Rat to get him? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

An all you can eat buffet pass?

[Spacewolf]

Intriguing, how difficult is he labeled as?

He's labelled as Hard I've just had a go with him on my game and the Dark elves are pretty annoying to deal with although I might have been too expansionist as well the two factions to your east die fairly easily but the one that's surrounding you to you west has a good chance of calling Morthai into help them. Also I was losing approx 150 troops to each enemy commander before I managed to break the rest of their armies and rout them.

[Vaz]

Just been spanked Khalida assaulting the Sentinels of Xeti last settlement. Khalida (Level 4) moved, with a unit of Sepulchral Stalkers, Necroknights, 4 Archers, 2 Tier 2 infantry, Death Liche, and the rest as Sword Infantry. They sallied.

The Slann murders your infantry with Wind Blast, and 7 units of (some Shielded) Saurus are hard to handle for 1 early game army. Managed to win, but lost Necroknights, Stalkers, Khalida and a unit of Archers, so I'm going to retry. Knew it would be difficult, but when an AI wizard which drops less than 2 minutes into a battle can rack up nearly 200 Kills, it's pretty rough. Spirit Leexh and Focus fire soon dropped him though.

[Vitruviansquid]

Ugh... I never realized how annoying it would be to limit yourself to one army at the first sixteen turns of the game. Playing my first Settra campaign feels like whack-a-mole with all these tiny orc armies running around.

[Vaz]

It is slightly annoying. I kind of wish that at least Settra, given that's he supposedly the easiest (no, no, Arkhan is the easiest by far - he's fighting Bretonnians missing their Knights until Turn 40), got access to +1 or more armies at the start, or at least a faster (doubled?) Research speed until he researches his first dynasty.

It's extremely polished, but I find myself being slightly annoyed by a few of the Dynasty Researches.

As Khalida, I have Sepulchral Stalkers and Necroknights, but they both do the same job. They share the same build tree (Necroknights T4, Stalkers T3). The gold is plenty enough to play tall on your first province playing reasonably aggressive (Sentinels of Xeti dead by Turn 15), without needing to Raid or Sack. So, you can quite comfortably rush for more Necroknights ASAP, but pumping growth buildings. However, the researches for the two units are in different Dynasties. To get both benefits, you need a minimum of 43 turns, by which stage you can quite comfortably be pushing close to T5 Necroknight Halbs. Stalkers only value at that stage is that they don't share the unit cap, and can provide a decent knock back to assist Necroknights, but at the same time, you could also be picking up Hierotitan's or Necrosphinx.

Necroknights have the benefit of their tree actually benefitting other units - Stalkers get Carrion - until later in the Campaign, when you get your 3rd army, I don't think Carrion are all that useful, because Flock of Djaf - and Tomb Scorpions, which are on another T4 build tree option - there's not enough Gold without really, really pushing for Gold to get the two T4 units. Meanwhile, Necroknights have SCC and, more importantly Casket of Souls benefits. The CoS is a fantastic artillery piece, and giving it another 4 shots and 10% Damage is incredible, and the tree provides +5 MA/MD, +10 Armour and +10% Weapon damage. Stalkers don't get the strength bonus.

I mean, it's not gamebreaking, but I'd love Stalkers to be somewhat worthwhile as something other than "oh, you can't afford enough/have expanded enough" to afford to replace all your lower tier Stalkers with Necroknights.

[Grim Portent]

I feel that's kind of a problem with most factions, some units are just low tier versions of high tier ones with the only real reason to use the weaker ones being upkeep or lack of tech, the exceptions mostly being when there is no higher tier unit of the same role.

This is then excacerbated by most factions splitting up techs into buffing either low or high tier units (why research zombie buff tech as VCs when grave guard buff tech is in a separate branching path of the same tree?) and lord abilities often doing the same.

[Vitruviansquid]

Update on my Hard Settra campaign:

It has somehow helped to hit the Top Knotz settlement to my northeast rather than the one on the northwest as an opener. I belive it may be because you can run into and murder an orc stack along the way. Then I doubled back and took the Top Knotz settlement to my northwest before hitting the fortified provincial capital. I made a big mistake of letting the Top Knotz live on as a Horde with a goblin great shaman and two units, thinking they'll leave for good or be killed off by another faction. Instead, they rapidly got back to a full stack of Savage orcs and besieged my capital.

It feels *very* good to get that dynasty tech researched and come out with a second army. It is still a bit of a pain in the ass to run around the vast desert, though I am getting more and more surprised at how fast Tomb Kings armies can go with an embedded Necrotect and some of the right followers.

[Vaz]

I feel that's kind of a problem with most factions, some units are just low tier versions of high tier ones with the only real reason to use the weaker ones being upkeep or lack of tech, the exceptions mostly being when there is no higher tier unit of the same role.

This is then excacerbated by most factions splitting up techs into buffing either low or high tier units (why research zombie buff tech as VCs when grave guard buff tech is in a separate branching path of the same tree?) and lord abilities often doing the same.
It feels exacerbated for TK due to the limited pop cap. I mean, Stalkers are larger NN steeds with arms, and are still Constructs. I think I might wait a bit until there are some more Mods. Maybe reinstall SFO2.

Honestly, I'm just looking for a more DEI style mod for WH.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

CA also just updated their free-LC schedule. Judging by the NON-Tomb-Kings pyramid in the backdrop, the next Legendary Lord's gonna be for the Lizardmen! COMMENCE SPECULATION! :smalltongue:

[Grim Portent]

Kroak or that skink guy would be obvious ones.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Isn't Kroak kinda...dead? :smallconfused:

[Grim Portent]

Isn't Kroak kinda...dead? :smallconfused:

So are the Tomb Kings. :smallamused:

I was never the biggest buff on Lizardmen lore, but I'm pretty sure Kroak refused to leave his body after dying, so his spirit sort of lingers in his body to keep guiding and protecting his forces. He's basically an inanimate toad wizard mummy.

[Grytorm]

I am now imagining the mummified remains of Kroak being brought to the battlefield, a Skink gives a speech about how he was torn asunder many eons ago, but now they have located his left leg. The lizardmen prove victorious and bring their legendary lord one step closer to completion.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So are the Tomb Kings. :smallamused:

I was never the biggest buff on Lizardmen lore, but I'm pretty sure Kroak refused to leave his body after dying, so his spirit sort of lingers in his body to keep guiding and protecting his forces. He's basically an inanimate toad wizard mummy.
Touché.

The inanimate part is what concerns me. Mazdamundi can at least swing his Cobra Mace in a pinch. Kroak can't even defend himself like that...

[Grim Portent]

Touché.

The inanimate part is what concerns me. Mazdamundi can at least swing his Cobra Mace in a pinch. Kroak can't even defend himself like that...

He was able fight in tabletop, but he had WS1 and A1, tying him with zombies.

He can probably move his arms or something, but he's certainly not supposed to go near enemies. He'd be the purest caster lord in the game, probably with a very high ward save and a debuff to enemy melee attack in a radius around him.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

His 'melee' attacks can always be animated as magical effects instead; he sits there, all, y'know, mummified, as energy lashes around him throwing enemies back. Kinda similar to some of the Fay Enchantress' moves.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've been told by a friend who's hoping the next LL will be Tehenhauin that Lord Kroak only knows one spell. Is this true?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'd go with "no".

For comparison, here's his most recent Age of Sigmar Warscroll for his current rules. He has 4 spells in this version, as well as some not-terrible melee attacks from the magic flying around him, just as I had suggested.

[HerbieRAI]

I've been told by a friend who's hoping the next LL will be Tehenhauin that Lord Kroak only knows one spell. Is this true?

In 7th ed he only had one that could be cast at 3 or 4 different levels. Things like that change from edition to edition.

[LCP]

There's really no reason TW needs to be a slave to the tabletop on details like Kroak's spell list. Spell selection in TW already works completely differently to how it did in tabletop, I see no reason why they couldn't implement him with more spells. (Although I really want to see Deliverance of Itza spell done justice)

I think a good implementation of Kroak would look something like:

Unbreakable Slann Mage Priest with +HP and +Physical Resistance, -MA -weapon damage.
Passive ability granting extra leadership to friends in radius around himself (on top of ordinary encouragement from a lord)
Death mask item granting Fear and a constant -MD debuff to enemies in a radius around himself
Exorcism lore attribute from lore of Light
Spell list made up of a mix of Light, High and Death
Deliverance of Itza as a Ruination of Cities style bound spell

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That looks cool, LCP!

Something I've noticed in both 1 and 2, and I was wondering if other players have had the same experience, is that I find myself basically ignoring the Quests for my Legendary Lords until late in the campaign, AFTER the major action of the campaign is over. My first campaign with the Greenskins and my current one with the Empire both had me initially struggling to get a secure foothold with one or maybe two armies, with my initial Legendary Lord needing to run around and keep borders secure until my economy could really kick in. And then by that point, Archaon would show up and I'd need to focus on dealing with him instead of going after Quest Battles, since those, for me, tend to be real meatgrinders, with Close Victories being the norm, even though I play on Normal or even Easy Difficulty. This results in me needing to replenish my casualties, which leaves me pretty vulnerable until I can afford at least two other armies. This in turn is why I tend to rely on autocalc for the majority of my battles, since I don't trust myself to command well enough to keep ALL my battles from being Close or even Pyrrhic, leaving a weak army that can be mopped up by the next guy.

In addition, I tend to not get the other LLs until much later, when I have the space and the money to construct the buildings needed to unlock them or can confederate with the faction they're leading, meaning that there's a lot fewer enemies that they can fight to gain experience from, and once I DO get going, their quests basically run themselves until the battle portion because the factions they need to act against were already destroyed by Archaon or possibly me in a land grab.

When I played An Eye for an Eye, I had a similar problem, since I couldn't afford more than two hordes at a time and was constantly on the move trying to avoid getting slaughtered or running out of money, so that by the time I got around to DOING the Quests, I'd basically already won since there weren't any other factions left on the map to pressure me. I haven't played enough of Eye of the Vortex to know for sure, but the fact that it's set up as a race between the factions to complete their rituals first makes me worry it'd play out the same way: first a scramble to get land and build an economy, and then a scramble to get the rituals done, forcing me to ignore the Quests until basically the end of the campaign, when I can firmly entrench and not have to worry about it.

This makes me feel like I'm doing things backwards, like I really SHOULD be doing the Quests as soon as I get them so the rewards can help me win other battles more easily, but I feel like when the Quests appear, I'm still too vulnerable because my economy isn't stable enough, or I haven't a got my LLs army built up where it can survive the battle, or I've got full stacks of enemies breathing down my neck that I need to keep at bay.

Am I doing this wrong? It almost feels like while my instincts ARE allowing me to win, that's ALL they're letting me do, and I'm not getting the genuine TWW experience, as if the game's encouraging me to be more aggressive overall, when I prefer to basically turtle and then only attack when I have an overwhelming force that makes victory a guarantee...

[Guancyto]

Depends a lot on your political situation. You play a lot of Empire, right? Early-game Empire is perpetually running around with its hair on fire trying to get a better economic and military base so that Chaos doesn't roll right over them, and their quests tend to be sort of long and involved. My most recent Mortal Empires Empire game I had the Reikland Runefang and the Silver Seal (which seems to no longer require a Witch Hunter as of the foundation update) when Archaeon showed up, but nothing on anybody else.

2 did this much better than 1, also. The quests have less steps overall, so it's easier to fit them into your strategy. If you're playing Lothern or Hexotl or Pestilens or Naggarond (so really anybody in the New World), it's not all that hard to get yourself a comfortable position where you can afford a turn or two where your legendary lord isn't charging into battle.

(Also, in Eye of the Vortex, if you're reasonably good about disrupting enemy rituals, you don't actually have to rush your own rituals at all.)

[thorgrim29]

So the tomb kings are fun. Their basic infantry is terrible but since they cost nothing and are infinitely available I can't really hold that against them. The biggest issue is when rebels spawn with tier 3-4 troops and then you're sort of stuck... One thing that's a bit random is Settra's rasta accent that none of the other characters seem to share... Also Khalida's who seems vaguely eastern european (which might be because she's Neferata's cousin and vampires=eastern europe...)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Something else, I've been wondering has been the Skaven selections. What's so special about Clans Mors and Rictus, since they aren't Great Clans like Pestilens is? It seems like a lot of people were eager for the next Skaven LL to be Ikit Claw with Clan Skyre, so Tretch Craventail with Clan Rictus feels as out of left field as Alberic de Bordelaux and Helman Ghorst were in the first game, and now there's only one Skaven LL left, since CA is apparently limiting each faction in TWW2 to 4 LLs (as opposed to the factions in 1 who could range from just 2 for the Wood Elves to up to 6 for the Vampire Counts if you played your cards right).

Was having the 4 Skaven factions being the 4 Great Clans (Pestilens, Skyre, Moulder and Eshin) too obvious? Because now it feels like no matter which Clan gets the fourth spot, fans of the others in the big 4 are gonna feel left out. I dunno, it's just sort of bugged me about the Skaven, especially with the realization that my strategic instincts to turtle and never attack unless I have overwhelming advantages means I basically think like a Skaven! :smalleek:

[Blackhawk748]

Maybe they're saving them for game 3?

[Grim Portent]

They probably choose them based on a combination of what mechanics they feel comfortable incorporating for LLords, where they want the lord to be and how similar the Lord is compared to others from the faction. Also how much work is needed to implement the lord's model.

[Ailurus]

Something else, I've been wondering has been the Skaven selections. What's so special about Clans Mors and Rictus, since they aren't Great Clans like Pestilens is? It seems like a lot of people were eager for the next Skaven LL to be Ikit Claw with Clan Skyre, so Tretch Craventail with Clan Rictus feels as out of left field as Alberic de Bordelaux and Helman Ghorst were in the first game, and now there's only one Skaven LL left, since CA is apparently limiting each faction in TWW2 to 4 LLs (as opposed to the factions in 1 who could range from just 2 for the Wood Elves to up to 6 for the Vampire Counts if you played your cards right).

Was having the 4 Skaven factions being the 4 Great Clans (Pestilens, Skyre, Moulder and Eshin) too obvious? Because now it feels like no matter which Clan gets the fourth spot, fans of the others in the big 4 are gonna feel left out. I dunno, it's just sort of bugged me about the Skaven, especially with the realization that my strategic instincts to turtle and never attack unless I have overwhelming advantages means I basically think like a Skaven! :smalleek:

Don't know for sure, but for the most part the Skaven clan selection makes sense.

Pestilens had to be in, cause Lizards. That was a given.
At some point Mors had to get added, cause the K8P fight needed it's 3rd player.
Skryre is all but a lock for the skaven side of a King and Warlord esque DLC, cause Jezzails and Ratling Guns or there's riots.

That leaves Mouldor and Eshin. I'm not surprised Eshin got the boot. Their biggest problem, I think, is that lore-wise they're much more on the sneaky backstabby side than the stand and fight side, and frankly Total War stinks at really doing sneaky and backstabby. I could see Snikch taking the flc role in place of Tretch, but the other problem with Eshin arriving is that they really should be based out of Skavenblight, and that's where Skryre is too. As for Mouldor, well, this is the one that has me stumped. The only real problem I see is that they don't have a place on the Vortex map, but then Rictus doesn't either.

Rictus's only advantage I can see is that assuming game 3 is based out of the Darklands then Crookback becomes vitally important, and having Tretch around makes sense. But even then, they could have given us Mouldor now as the FLC, and just attached Tretch to game 3 as a bonus.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's the thing: Pestilens seems so much more interesting and relevant than Mors, so how come Mors got top billing instead of them?

[Grim Portent]

Pestilens always seemed the least interesting to me personally. They're essentially just the most Nurgle-y subfaction of a faction that already treads really close ground to Nurgle thematically.

Moulder and Skryre are the interesting ones to me, being the two mad science factions, but I prefer Moulder a lot more than Skryre. Problem with them is that on a thematic level Moulder competes with the Chaos factions and greenskins for being the monstrous abberrations forces and Skryre competes with Dwarves and Empire for artillery and tech forces.

Mors probably got top billing because Queek is more iconic looking than Skrolk and his forces are more in line with standard Skaven than Pestilens are.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Which clan IS the most iconic for the tabletop anyway? The clan that immediately comes to mind when someone hears the word "Skaven?" For that matter, which clan is Thanquol part of?

[Grim Portent]

His clan is unknown, due to his rank he would have given it up in favour of loyalty to all of Skavendom anyway.

I think Mors was the clan used for the default colourscheme GW used, I think stormvermin and the warlord were painted red.

What clan was actually iconic isn't really that easy to say, other than Pestilens most armies weren't themed due to the lack of proper faction rules and most commonly played clan changed as different units got better and worse over time. That and any clan could use stuff from the others with the soft fluff exception of all Pestilens units being loyal to Pestilens in a way a Rat Ogre or Warp Lightning Cannon isn't.

Pestilens armies (lots of plague monks and that siege weapon they had) were common at one point as I recall.

Moulder style Pit Abominations and Rat Ogres was a thing, especially when Abominations were ridiculously strong.

Skryre rando-tech was probably the most popular thing in general and considered the most defining trait of the Skaven army next to skavenslave hordes. Doomwheels have basically always been popular.

[Corsair14]

I am loving the tomb kings. My one dude is 24 now and I just finished conquering the peninsula. Another tomb king army is causing issues but now I can turn my full attention on him. One of the biggest issues I have had is the lord thing. Being so limited in lords makes it very hard to keep you borders secure.

Hoping Chaos Dwarves will be released at some point

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is it weird that I'm still playing the first Total War Warhammer because I'm still waiting for all the DLC and patches to come out for TWW2 so the game is "finished" before I move to it?

[VoxRationis]

So what tools do people use to deal with ushabti with great bows when playing as the High Elves? I don't have the game, but the videos I've seen make it seem as though HE have a lot of difficulty with them.

[LCP]

Are we talking about MP or SP?

MP, I'd either try getting some Ellyrian Reavers around the flanks with Vanguard to tie them up, or just push forwards with a broad infantry line that has plenty of archers behind and shoot them down. Even with their armour I don't think they'd trade effectively with HE archers. Once things get messy and the backline is opened up you can send your heavy cavalry or a Noble on a horse in to finish them off; the important thing is just gonna be to stop them from choosing their targets freely during the initial engagement.

SP, do whatever, the AI won't target them intelligently. Push a junk unit forward to take the fire and attack them with whatever kind of unit you like best.

[shadow_archmagi]

Is it weird that I'm still playing the first Total War Warhammer because I'm still waiting for all the DLC and patches to come out for TWW2 so the game is "finished" before I move to it?

Yes. It's also probably thrifty, and not super unreasonable.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Something I've been wondering about playing Bretonnia: which path of confederation do most players secure first? Bordelaux or Carcassonne? My instincts tell me Carcassonne may be better to start with, since from my observations the Wood Elves move to wipe them out relatively quickly in the Campaign, but then you're cut off from the middle of your realm and I don't know if it's just as dangerous to leave Bordelaux at risk of being conquered by Mousillon. How should one proceed if the goal is to confederate as quickly as possible so you have all three Bretonnian LLs at once?

[shadow_archmagi]

i just saw Hexolotyl, the main lizard faction, confederate into the Last Defenders, ceasing to exist. I wasn't aware that could happen during the Vortex campaign. I guess that's one competitor out of the way.

[DaedalusMkV]

i just saw Hexolotyl, the main lizard faction, confederate into the Last Defenders, ceasing to exist. I wasn't aware that could happen during the Vortex campaign. I guess that's one competitor out of the way.

It can and does with some frequency if one of the two ritual factions is in trouble. I don't think I've ever got through a game without Mors confederating into Pestilens or vice versa and Malekith will usually Confederate Morathi's faction if you put any pressure on her. The only time I've seen the two Lizard factions merge was in my Malekith game where I had all but wiped out Hexoatl and the Last Defenders merged in the broken remnants, though.

Also... Nope, no competitors out of the way. Take a loot at that ritual progress bar; the Last Defenders will be on there now. If one of the Ritual factions ceases to exist, the other from that race will take over their Ritual progress.

[shadow_archmagi]

It can and does with some frequency if one of the two ritual factions is in trouble. I don't think I've ever got through a game without Mors confederating into Pestilens or vice versa and Malekith will usually Confederate Morathi's faction if you put any pressure on her. The only time I've seen the two Lizard factions merge was in my Malekith game where I had all but wiped out Hexoatl and the Last Defenders merged in the broken remnants, though.

Also... Nope, no competitors out of the way. Take a loot at that ritual progress bar; the Last Defenders will be on there now. If one of the Ritual factions ceases to exist, the other from that race will take over their Ritual progress.

Drat! I guess I'll have to eliminate them entirely if I want to stop the clock.

[shadow_archmagi]

Update: Nope. Last Defenders have not appeared on the doom tracker. There's only three little arrows now. Very interesting. I wonder why your game handled it differently?

[Forum Explorer]

Update: Nope. Last Defenders have not appeared on the doom tracker. There's only three little arrows now. Very interesting. I wonder why your game handled it differently?

My game did the same thing when Mors confederated into Pestilens, that is, Pestilens just taking over. A lucky glitch for you a suppose.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I changed my mind on doing a Bretonnia campaign as my current campaign as the Empire comes to a close. Instead, I'm planning on tackling the Season of Revelation mini-campaign, and I had a bunch of questions on how to get started and be successful as the Wood Elves, now that Warhammer 2 and some of its DLC has shaken them up a bit.

1. One of the first things I always look for in regards to a Total War faction is a solid army composition that takes advantage of the factions strengths while not just spamming particular units. I'm wondering what would make a relatively well-balanced army with some variety for the Wood Elves. I'm aware of the specific issues regarding spending Amber for tree-spirit and more monstrous units. LCP once gave me recommendations where the only unit that cost Amber was a single Forest Dragon, the rest of the army was all various wood elves with spears and Glade Guard. While such a setup seems efficient, it also seems kinda boring...no offense, LCP, and thank you for the advice. :smallsmile:

2. I'm also curious about getting the campaign off the ground in the first place. I learned in my disastrous first attempt at Season of Revelation of the folly of upgrading the Oak of Ages too quickly and triggering Morghur's first rampage before having an army that could stop him, but it seems like the other Wood Elf factions hate you starting out and upgrading the Oak improves their diplomatic stance with you. Is there a way to butter them up so I can confederate with them (especially Argwylon so I can get Durthu as a LL)? I want to unite the forest under Orion's banner without fighting my fellow Asrai. In addition, I'm curious as to how to set up Wood Elf settlements, since my understanding is they have the traditional 6-slot capitals and 4-slot towns of most other factions in Season of Revelation instead of the 4 extra large Athel Loren settlements seen in The Old World and Mortal Empires.

3. How hard IS it to get and manage Amber as a resource? It's needed for the beefier army units, to research certain technologies, and to build some of the top-tier buildings in addition to the Oak of Ages, so it seems easy to waste of I'm careless.

Thank you all in advance for helping me find success in defending nature! :smallcool:

[Vaz]

I tend to prefer the all elf army, I did in TT too, but can't deny Treekin even in Orion lead armies. 3 Treekin are excellent linebreakers: Flaming Ones handle Spawn in your main army. Aided by a couple of Spear War Dancers to help rip into Cav, I back these up with 4 Wild Riders. This is a very heavy melee core, and the rest should be all ranged.

2 Units of Hawk Riders, a Dragon, and Eagle riding Amber Wizard helps shut down enemy gunlines, which should be followed by your preference of Glade Guard/Deep Wood Scouts.

Buttering up the other factions became tedious. Allying with them and fighting against the Bretonnians is okayish, but it takes too long. I ended up never bothering due to the AI also having a terrible build order, I rarely found need to get territories that way. I made a a
Special effort with Durthu, though.

Gaining Amber didn't feel too difficult if you doomstack, but having multiple armies with multilple amber units is going to quickly reduce your stack. Your first army can be completely vsried, it is your other 3-4 supporting armies which become an issue when supporting with amber.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you for the advice, Vaz! Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Glade Guard and Deepwood Scouts in your experience?

[Vaz]

Hagbane Glades are my typical go to for the debuff's; but also, I enjoy using Swiftshiver Deepwoods for their Damage and Phys Resistance ignoring; their short range becomes a bit of an issue, and Waywatchers do have AP however. In short, throw yourself into a few 1v2 situations vs the AI in some of the more dense terrain Skirmish Maps, and see which you prefer to use. There honestly isn't much in it, but vs the AI, I find that my archers are able to do well enough.

Truthfully, you can run about with 6-8* variant WElf Archer units (including Glade Riders) in your army, with a mix to your fancy. For the main army, I initially went for 4/2 HBGG/SSDS, but ended up having the Scouts caught by Centigors, and lost them, trading them out for urgent access to more archer firepower when a trio of Breton 3/4 Stacks appeared. There were times when I kind of wished for their ability to Vanguard Deploy, but usually they were just used as a different looking gunline unit vs the AI.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is it better to spec Orion towards melee or ranged combat? My habit with my Empire campaign has been to make a beeline for Lighnting Strike and focus on any special tree the Legendary Lords might have (the new ones that got added in the patches) or spells if they're a mage-type LL like Gelt or Azhag.

Also, when you say Flaming Ones, do you mean the Firebark Elders RoR? :smallconfused:

[Vaz]

Ye, I completely forget the names of some of the RoR (I'm not a fan of the Unique unit mechanic, personally, although having Flaming Attacks on a unit that's capable of countering Trolls is golden). This RoR can be forgotten however, if you have the Flaming Banner.

WRT Orion, I played him Melee in the Mini Campaign, but Hybrid Support Lord in the main campaign. No real reason to it, just fancied trying him out with a slightly different playstyle. I think he can be build to whatever you prefer. He's not fantastic as something to soak up a charge and then pin cushion because of a; his stats, and b; Wood Elf Archery Effectiveness, but some choice Magic Items if you're able to find them go wonders to help that. Getting the Legendary Gear is a must IMHO because of how extra effective it makes him. It almost makes it easy mode for his battles - which can make standard GLords/Gladies feel fragile.

Dragons are excellent; I always try to go for a Glady to snipe Minotaurs/Gorebulls and to route Ungor Raiders who are surprisingly annoying, leaving the Wild Riders free to mess up the main battle line once they're engaged with the swamp-pit Treekin.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see! Another question, if you don't mind: you stated the AI's "build order" is atrocious. By that do you mean they build the wrong buildings in their settlements? If so, what should MY build order be? I understand that Wood Elf settlements are different in the mini-campaign than in the main one. In Season of Revelation, Athel Loren has regular provinces with six-slot capitals and 4-slot towns, as opposed to Old World's 4 big 10-slot settlements. I am aware that everywhere else you can only build 2-slot outposts.

So far I've generally followed a template of having a single province containing all the buildings needed to generate my troops (Reikland in my current Empire campaign) and then building defensive buildings like walls and garrisons, economic buildings, and protective buildings like Temples of Sigmar and Wizard Towers everywhere else. I figure that I'll need to change that strategy when playing the Wood Elves because they have so many troop-creating buildings you can't fit them all in a single province, plus they have two defensive buildings: one for increasing garrison troops and one for walls, as opposed to most other factions who use one building for both.

[Vaz]

The AI doesn't really have a build order from what I can see. It simply levels up in accordance with growth and builds a random building it can afford that it does not already have in the same province (hence the Chariot, Marauder Horse, Artillery only armies you see knocking about). There is no guarantee that the AI will build what is necessary, and Condeferating to get a load of poorly assigned skills on generals that need total skill rebuilds, with provinces that seem to lack any sort of Rhyme or Reason (Province Capitals with T3 Max buildings or Minor Settlements with T4 or 5 Maxing Buildings etc) just feels wasteful of your time. You can try to Confederate for RP purposes though. Only one I'd to confederste ASAP is Durthu, because Durthu (Or Orion if going Argwylon start) and to avoid the chance of giving him crap skills, ASAP is key. No guaratnee though thanks to the RNG design choice.

My build order on VH was simply what units did I enjoy using the best (Wild Riders, Dragons) and arrowed myself to those ASAP, to the extent of prioritising growth. That high quality archers like Glade Guard are available from T1 even without Magic arrows is a boon and you can always make do.

I always try to be cautious with my units, so tend to stay away from Bonus Experience skills, as I prefer the concept of training a unit from scratch to become Veterans, and am disappointed with the builds that allow you to get Silver or Gold Chevrons right from the off. Despite this I've never had a problem on VH. I did do it on Legendary Kholek main campaign run, (I had like 12 Exalted Champions with Max Recruitment) because of how annoying it was to get growth on hordes late game, and even using Gold Marauder Berserkers/Chaos Warriors with a Level 5/6 General allowed me to outstrip AI cheating and the annoyances Legendary placed on me.

In VH, I found I was able to just get by without needing to abuse Veterancy 'hacks'. I'm considering rerunning the Mini campaign (I wish TW2 had a minicampaign, the Vortex and Mortal Empires are too big in scope for me to continually replay. Gimme Lustria, Gimme the Sundering, or Gimme War of the Beard. Making 3 or 4 races playable will go someway towards it at least.) and going to the extent of tracking and following my armies (Perhaps the First 2 only) and their units to see how many kills they get.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see. I've been told I need to build up the Oak of Ages to be able to confederate, at least in the mini-campaign. How fast CAN I build an army capable of fending off the Morghur attack that triggers? I imagine I won't have much of an economy to work with.

[shadow_archmagi]

Had a troubling experience just now: My besieging Waaaagh got attacked by two armies plus the garrison, so there were reinforcements coming from multiple directions. I figured I'd start my whole army surrounding one enemy, wipe them out, then turn and face the others on an even footing. Unfortunately, either I'm really bad at keeping track of units, or the game didn't spawn the extent of the three armies, so new units kept trickling in. I thought I'd finished off the last of the encircled force, so I turned my army around, and then suddenly two units of heavily cavalry plowed into my archers from behind.

Is that a thing? Will the game do trickle-in reinforcements as existing units are wiped out if the battle would be too big? Also, what are some tips for keeping huge battles manageable? I feel like often when it's a 40v40 battle, it's easy to end up with "orphan" units that win a tiny side conflict and then I forget about them while they stand there being shot.

[Forum Explorer]

Had a troubling experience just now: My besieging Waaaagh got attacked by two armies plus the garrison, so there were reinforcements coming from multiple directions. I figured I'd start my whole army surrounding one enemy, wipe them out, then turn and face the others on an even footing. Unfortunately, either I'm really bad at keeping track of units, or the game didn't spawn the extent of the three armies, so new units kept trickling in. I thought I'd finished off the last of the encircled force, so I turned my army around, and then suddenly two units of heavily cavalry plowed into my archers from behind.

Is that a thing? Will the game do trickle-in reinforcements as existing units are wiped out if the battle would be too big? Also, what are some tips for keeping huge battles manageable? I feel like often when it's a 40v40 battle, it's easy to end up with "orphan" units that win a tiny side conflict and then I forget about them while they stand there being shot.

Yup, I'm not sure on the exact details, but if there would be too many units they trickle in instead. It proved very useful in surviving a siege against three full armies of Skaven. It's a reason why it's much better to fight out big battles cause the auto resolve will actually use all of the numbers available.

Pause frequently, and every once in a while look at your units current orders. If they don't have any, click on them and see what they are doing.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yup, I'm not sure on the exact details, but if there would be too many units they trickle in instead. It proved very useful in surviving a siege against three full armies of Skaven. It's a reason why it's much better to fight out big battles cause the auto resolve will actually use all of the numbers available.

Pause frequently, and every once in a while look at your units current orders. If they don't have any, click on them and see what they are doing.

I've also noticed that the AI isn't very good about deploying all of their forces during a siege. I've seen Skaven invaders hold whole armies in reserve, quietly soaking tower fire.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Ran into something that confused me. I've done a few of the quests for the Empire legendary lords, and some of the quests (Cloak of Molten Metal and The Silver Seal, for example) have a battle in one of two locations, which is identical regardless of location. What determines where the battle is set? I'd initially thought I'd have to fight the battle at both locations, but that turned out to be wrong. Does this mean that if I want to check off all the quest battles in the menu I have to play the campaign TWICE or something?!

[GolemsVoice]

So I've been watching some Tomb Kings LPs, and the screaming skull catapult, while being a really cool unit, doesn't really seem to actually DO anything. Even direct hits into a group of infantry barely move their healthbar, while a direct hit with, say, the casket of souls or the artillery of any other race would tear those units apart.

[Grim Portent]

I was less than impressed by the skull catapult myself, I'm not sure what was up with it but it seemed to be rather poor at hitting and dealing damage compared to even just a unit of skeleton archers.


I'm curious if anyone else gets a strong urge to rush for Kislev in Mortal Empires btw? I always feel like I should occupy the area near baersonlings camp and make sure it's fortified and ready to gank Archaon quickly after he spawns.

[MCerberus]

So I've been watching some Tomb Kings LPs, and the screaming skull catapult, while being a really cool unit, doesn't really seem to actually DO anything. Even direct hits into a group of infantry barely move their healthbar, while a direct hit with, say, the casket of souls or the artillery of any other race would tear those units apart.

As someone that doesn't like chariot combat anyway, I find the catapult not worth the investment into the entire building chain. My TK campaign ended up with swarms of stone puppies and uber units. Quite frankly the archer statues make better artillery and when they run out of ammo, they can head into the fray

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sorry to keep bugging folks on this thread with Empire-related matters, but I've been struggling with the final battle in Balthasar Gelt's Staff of Volans quest. I thought I was getting somewhere by positioning my troops to anticipate the ambush coming out of the woods, but it seems there's just too many of them, and they've managed to chew through my troops steadily until everything's either routing or wiped out. My current setup that has served me well in battles up until this point has been:

Balthasar Gelt
1 Warpriest
4 Halberdiers
2 Greatswords
4 Handgunners
2 Knights of the Blazing Sun
2 Demigryph Knights with Halberds
2 Steam Tanks
2 Hellstorm Rocket Batteries.

I'm not sure if there's any way to improve the stack I have, since other threads I've seen on this battle follow a similar pattern. I have to say this is one of the hardest battles I've engaged in in the game. Thank you, in advance, for any advice that can help me finish off this battle once and for all.

[shadow_archmagi]

That looks like a pretty reasonable comp. I just started an empire game as Volcano the Grimdark, since he's free this week, so I'm sure I'll hit this battle eventually.

I don't recall it off the top of my head, but some general-use tips:

1. Steam tanks are really hard to kill for non-armor-piercing troops. It's not too hard to get two squads of enemy swordsmen wailing away at one, and then use your infantry-deletion button of choice (AoE spells, artillery, cavalry charge, flatulents)

2. Make sure you delete the enemy's artillery. Cavalry, esp. flying cavalry, are very good for this.

[LCP]

Seems like a lot of handgunners and not much infantry - do you find the gunners get obstructed a lot? If your issue is you're losing out in the infantry grind then you may want crossbowmen to arc shots into the melee. Alternatively just moar infantry to hold the line. If you have access to the Empire RoR then Sigmar's Sons and the Tattersouls might be good picks

EDIT: Also, if you're getting rushed & overwhelmed, you might try using your steam tanks to hold the enemy in place & cycle charge with your cavalry while the rest of your army retreats to a better position. The AI is not too smart, if you use the tanks right you can make some nice blobs to hit with cav charges + AoE magic.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So...replace my Handgunners with Crossbowmen? I was under the impression that Handgunners were a straight upgrade from Crossbowmen since Crossbowmen couldn't pierce armor.

[Grim Portent]

There's a trade off since handgunners can only fire straight while crossbows can arc their shots, letting them fire over their allies to hit the back of a melee or pepper fleeing enemies without needing holes left in your formation like gunners do.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If that is the case, then I have clearly been playing my battles wrong this whole time! I will replace my Handgunners with Crossbowmen to see if that helps (also, I think I'll wait before attempting the battle again, both to give my Crossbowmen some ranks so they're more useful in the fight, and also because I think I'm gonna try and see if I can't get Gelt a few more levels and see if that helps.

[Grim Portent]

I prefer archers over gunners myself, but there are plenty of ways to make gunners work.

They can't fire through friendly units or arc their shots, but they can fire at an angle from higher ground to shoot over friendlies, fire through narrow gaps in your infantry formations or be stationed in their own formation deployed at an angle to the side of the main formation.

I prefer archers because the extra morale penalty they inflict on enemies by firing into combat makes it that much easier to win the melee and keep fleeing enemies broken, but gunners have their place when fighting forces like Chaos or Dwarves.

[Vaz]

Taking a couple of Witch Hunters to spam out Accusations alongside Final Transmutations can rout out the generals. It's a little gimmicky, but you can just shred heroes, generals, and naasty units that way.

I've not played Gelt in Campaign in TW2, only being ******* around in FFA with him, so can only go off what I remember from WH1.

I had a hefty Outrider Grenade Force when I did in TW1, and found them relatively useful. I had Blazing Sun Knights, a unit of Reiksguard with the Blazing Standard, and some Greatswords who I buffed with Flaming Sword of Rhuin from a Fire Mage who I had Kindleflame with, trying to time charges at the same time in order to decimate units.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So...replace my Handgunners with Crossbowmen? I was under the impression that Handgunners were a straight upgrade from Crossbowmen since Crossbowmen couldn't pierce armor.

No, it is better to think of armour-piercing ranged as a separate category from non. Armour Piercing tends to shoot slower and can have issues with line of sight (and gunners definitely have the latter). In general, if you aren't going up against armour, it is better to leave them at home and take faster-shooting ranged. I've no idea of the composition that you are facing in this battle, but consider how much armoured troops you are facing, and cut down the gunners to match.

Think of it like the equivalent of pike vs swords: you take pike only when expecting cavalry. And you take gunners only when expecting armour. THe more of either, the more of those units you want to have on hand.

Grey Wolf

[Guancyto]

Seconding the recommendation for a witch hunter or two and... honestly, I can't even imagine a high-tier Empire campaign army without a good Captain. Hold the Line is just so, so valuable, and they're incredibly mobile and deadly fighters. If your line is fine without them and you need to send them to go bust up artillery or a wizard or a bunch of Chaos Knights, they've got it sorted.

Seeing as how you've already got steam tanks, maybe replace the rocket batteries with a witch hunter and a captain?

[LCP]

Hold the Line is just so, so valuable

Eh... really? All it does is increase your mass when braced. The AI isn't really clever enough to exploit disruption from cav charges in the first place.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, good news, bad news time. The good news is the Crossbowmen were just as effective as was suggested. I also took my highest level Empire Captain along and he made quite a difference in the combat, along with the warrior priest I had. I also specifically had my cavalry chase down the enemy's cannons and then tried to use them against any ranged fighters.

The BAD news is that I still was overwhelmed by the sheer number of troops the enemy had. While they had killed the enemy lord and their morale was flagging, my troops' morale ran out faster than theirs did, plus they had too many Demigryph Knights and Halberdiers for me to keep occupied at once, resulting in me getting flanked and losing my equalizers (my Crossbowmen, Rocket Batteries and Steam Tanks).

So...yeah, I'm still struggling. I'm tempted to just build at Castle Drakenhof's ruins to end the Campaign so I can move on to the Wood Elves. :smallannoyed:

[Vaz]

Any chance of a replay you can upload for us? Might be worth taking a look at so we can identify gaps that way?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Um...I don't...know how to DO that...:smallfrown:

[LCP]

All your replays are saved in %AppData%/TheCreativeAssembly/Warhammer2/replays.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've never done a replay before. Is that that "Save Replay" button at the end of any battle? Do I need a YouTube account to upload it to or something?

[Blackhawk748]

I've never done a replay before. Is that that "Save Replay" button at the end of any battle? Do I need a YouTube account to upload it to or something?

Yes and no. You could use Bitchute or any other video service.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I don't know how to make videos.

[Hesh]

No video making skills needed.

All you need to do is click Save Replay after a battle, and upload it to something like a Drop Box or Mediafire account. We can then download the replay and watch it in our game, and even try to refight it using your available stuff, and reply back with comments over how we fought and won. It has been so long since I've played that fight I can hardly remember how it is done, so it kills 2 birds with that stone.

Only thing we need to know is what mods you are running, if any, so that we can use.

[shadow_archmagi]

What determines how many Doom Tide waves spawn before the Everchosen appears?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I did it! I swapped out all my Halberdiers for Greatswords, replaced all my cavalry with Demigryph Knights (the halberd variety, of course), and swapped out the Hellstorm Rocket Batteries for two more Steam Tanks, and THAT DID THE TRICK! I mean, it was a Pyrrhic Victory and my army barely survived, but I DID IT! And the very next turn I was able to finish of my Empire campaign once and for all! Thank you all for your kind and wise advice. Now it's off to Athel Loren to complete the Season of Revelation!

[MCerberus]

What determines how many Doom Tide waves spawn before the Everchosen appears?

I believe campaign difficulty determines the number of Viking/Chaos waves and armies per waves.

[Aneurin]

Does anyone have any advice on Confederating with other factions?

I'm playing Von Carsteins and have spent the last far-too-many turns getting dragged into fights by the Vampire Counts who still won't confederate with me even after they picked a fight with the (then) strongest faction in the game and their allies, dragged me in through our alliance, then sat back and watched as I remorselessly and slowly crushed those damn dirty dwarves.

I'm currently a break-away Strength Rank 1, they're... 15 or so, own Castle Drakenhof and two random minor settlements I forget the name of in different provinces since I've done a good job at keeping them contained on the whole. Since one of their two armies is 50% zombies, I'm unsure how they're ranking so highly.

Is it even possible to Confederate them? Azhag's orcs submitted to being my vassals quite some time ago, while all I get from the Vampires is rude refusals so I'm starting to wonder... Or am I better off betraying them, since I can probably wipe them off the map in a turn or two when I bring some of my armies back down from fighting Chaos?

[Grim Portent]

Does anyone have any advice on Confederating with other factions?

I'm playing Von Carsteins and have spent the last far-too-many turns getting dragged into fights by the Vampire Counts who still won't confederate with me even after they picked a fight with the (then) strongest faction in the game and their allies, dragged me in through our alliance, then sat back and watched as I remorselessly and slowly crushed those damn dirty dwarves.

I'm currently a break-away Strength Rank 1, they're... 15 or so, own Castle Drakenhof and two random minor settlements I forget the name of in different provinces since I've done a good job at keeping them contained on the whole. Since one of their two armies is 50% zombies, I'm unsure how they're ranking so highly.

Is it even possible to Confederate them? Azhag's orcs submitted to being my vassals quite some time ago, while all I get from the Vampires is rude refusals so I'm starting to wonder... Or am I better off betraying them, since I can probably wipe them off the map in a turn or two when I bring some of my armies back down from fighting Chaos?

It's annoyingly hard to confederate as vampires, to the extent I think they're programmed to not want to between the two main factions, so my advice is either get a mod that makes it easier or just kill Mannfred so you can get Drakenhof under your control. I wound up doing the latter in my last Von Carstein run because I wanted the unique buildings in Drakenhof.

[Aneurin]

It's annoyingly hard to confederate as vampires, to the extent I think they're programmed to not want to between the two main factions, so my advice is either get a mod that makes it easier or just kill Mannfred so you can get Drakenhof under your control. I wound up doing the latter in my last Von Carstein run because I wanted the unique buildings in Drakenhof.

I may have just discovered a new trick. Apparently Manny reads this thread, since just after posting this he finally agreed to confederate with me. Sigh.

It was just so weird; the Red Duke in Mousillon agreed to confederate with me despite having only met me about five turns earlier. Azhag pretty much begged to become my vassal. Took over a hundred to finally get Manny to Confederate - but at least I have him and Ghorst now. Finally.

I wish I'd just gone with attacking Mannfred from the beginning like you suggested, though - the early access to vampires and a gold mine would have been amazing. But I didn't want to pass up on two LLs, and, frankly, didn't realize how annoying sucking up to Manny would be. Not quite sure where Kemmler's got to, though.

[nikiherba]

thanks for info

[shadow_archmagi]

I find that, in general, confederation is most likely when someone's at war with them. The fear of death puts the spirit of friendship into them very nicely.

[shadow_archmagi]

I started a Tomb Kings game. They're weird! I can't quite seem to figure out how to best deploy them. With Empire, and Dwarves, I could get an army composition and have a strong sense of how everything worked and who was doing the heavy lifting. With these boys, I'm not certain what works and doesn't and I win battles mostly by muddling through rather than executing a glorious plan.

I miss my Dwarf game already.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I started a Tomb Kings game. They're weird! I can't quite seem to figure out how to best deploy them. With Empire, and Dwarves, I could get an army composition and have a strong sense of how everything worked and who was doing the heavy lifting. With these boys, I'm not certain what works and doesn't and I win battles mostly by muddling through rather than executing a glorious plan.

I miss my Dwarf game already.

Its a big change, from dwarf to TK. Dwarfs have a practically unbreakable front line, whereas TK have a front line made out of tissue. Where dwarves hold the line and use ranged to destroy, TK accept the line to be a temporary speedbump and use flanks to destroy. Your constructs are death machines with great speed that can flank, crush, overwhelm and generally win you the battle. The skeletons are there to tie the enemy in place until your constructs do their job, but since you get what you paid for, don't expect them to simply wait for you to get around to that - you are in a race against time.

Also, you're going to have to learn to use cavalry, and units that move as fast as cavalry. Be aware that it takes a lot of management, especially the chariots - never let them sit amongst enemies. If you can't crash through their lines, you need to get them out of there.

Grey Wolf

[Grytorm]

Question, cant actually play right now but still question. In general when doing the crash through enemy lines thing with anyone is it send them into attack an enemy group at a run then click them away from combat or is it more tell them to move to the far side of an enemy formation.

Just wondering because when my computer was working I went from Dwarfs to Vampire Counts and found things to be more complicated for several reasons. Especially because wasnt certain how to make use of cavalry.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question, cant actually play right now but still question. In general when doing the crash through enemy lines thing with anyone is it send them into attack an enemy group at a run then click them away from combat or is it more tell them to move to the far side of an enemy formation.

Just wondering because when my computer was working I went from Dwarfs to Vampire Counts and found things to be more complicated for several reasons. Especially because wasnt certain how to make use of cavalry.

I believe you have to do two clicks: first to get them to attack, then to get them to disengage. If you just click beyond the target, they won't get the charge bonus which is why you're doing this in the first place, since from the PoV of the game, they got ambushed while moving.

Also, please be aware that there are two types of cavalry: melee and shock. Melee cavalry can be left in combat (they have good attack and defence skills), while shock cavalry will have a massive charge bonus and comparatively poor stats otherwise. The second one is the one you want to slam, pull back and repeat, and thus you don't want too many of them in one army, because they'll take up all your time in the battle.

Grey Wolf

[MCerberus]

I got the LL DLCs when they were on sale and... is it just me or is there no reason to use anything other than Bugman's Rangers for the dwarven ranged slot? Better quarrelers with just... all the perks and additional ranger-specific red line lord skills and tech tree stuff.

[shadow_archmagi]

I got the LL DLCs when they were on sale and... is it just me or is there no reason to use anything other than Bugman's Rangers for the dwarven ranged slot? Better quarrelers with just... all the perks and additional ranger-specific red line lord skills and tech tree stuff.

They cost 55 more gold per turn per unit, but otherwise, you're correct that they appear to be Just Better.

[LCP]

If you're not expecting your missiles to get engaged in melee, then most of the advantages you're paying for on Bugman's are going to waste. Regular Quarrelers have much better armour which makes them similarly tanky in a missile duel vs other non-AP missiles.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I got the LL DLCs when they were on sale and... is it just me or is there no reason to use anything other than Bugman's Rangers for the dwarven ranged slot? Better quarrelers with just... all the perks and additional ranger-specific red line lord skills and tech tree stuff.

Regiments of renown are generally better across the board than the base one they replace, yes. They are also more expensive, and as LCP points out, the gains tend to be in less important areas. In campaign, however, they are an instant hire that doesn't use a recruitment slot, and I find that to be the most crucial aspect of them, honestly.

Other considerations: they can't gain XP, so anyone they kill is an XP chunk that could've gone to a regular unit. And of course, they are unique. You talk about "the dwarven ranged slot", as if you were only taking one, but in my experience, a dwarven army works best with about half of its units being various flavours of ranged (including siege and aerial). And they can't all be Bugman's Rangers.

Grey Wolf

[LCP]

Bugman's aren't a RoR, that's Ulthar's Raiders.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bugman's aren't a RoR, that's Ulthar's Raiders.

Ups, my bad. That's what I get from not verifying. Sorry about that. (My only consolation is that even the wiki warns not to make this mistake "They are not a Regiment of Renown despite sounding like it", so at least I'm not the only one that has made this mistake)

Instead of relying on memory, a chick check to the wiki reminds me that that I disliked the "low" armour and two-turn training for Bugman's. They are also quite a bit more expensive to train, but admittedly in campaign I hardly ever care about that.

GW

[MCerberus]

Regiments of renown are generally better across the board than the base one they replace, yes. They are also more expensive, and as LCP points out, the gains tend to be in less important areas. In campaign, however, they are an instant hire that doesn't use a recruitment slot, and I find that to be the most crucial aspect of them, honestly.

Other considerations: they can't gain XP, so anyone they kill is an XP chunk that could've gone to a regular unit. And of course, they are unique. You talk about "the dwarven ranged slot", as if you were only taking one, but in my experience, a dwarven army works best with about half of its units being various flavours of ranged (including siege and aerial). And they can't all be Bugman's Rangers.

Grey Wolf

I generally just don't mix ranged units with different ranges, so the "slot" is 4-6 units depending on other composition like if I'm bringing whirlibirbs.