Undead+Ferocity?

[Boggartbae]

Can undead use Ferocity? I'm about 90% certain that they can, because:

-The rules for "a living creature falls unconscious when brought below 0 HP" and "an undead is destroyed when brought below 0 HP" use the same wording, just with different outcomes, so If the Ferocity wording of "remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0" can supersede one, it should work on the other

-Specific instances trump general rules anyway, and there are undead creatures on the SRD that have the Ferocity special ability, strongly implying that they should be able to use it if they have it

-An undead creature uses it's Charisma in place of Constitution for all special abilities, so they would have a buffer to work with when they went into Diehard mode. Also, it seems to me that Paizo just let undead do whatever they want as long as they use their charisma for it.

Anyway if they can, then I believe I have found the Ultimate Barbarian Build! Take the Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life rage powers, and whenever you drop below 0 HP, since you don't get destroyed, you have a chance to convert a lot of your damage into nonlethal, which undead are immune to, so it just goes away!
So just play an orc, dump Con, and hire your party necromancer to cast Create Undead on you after a Coup De Gras at the beginning of the campaign, and now you have an undead template! you lose a level for dying, but it's still a pretty cool trick :smallcool:

P.S thank you Psyren for showing me the relevant text that said undead are able to rage at all :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

I'm more inclined to believe that the Floodslain Orc entry is an error personally. Or even that it correctly has Ferocity but it's a moot point.

[Boggartbae]

True, you could rule it either way, since the Floodslain Orc is the only undead to have Ferocity, and it's not exactly like any 3.P material has been well edited ever. I searched high and low and couldn't find a RAW answer, so I think it would be up to the GM's.

I'll ask this though; do you think that it's too strong of an ability to recover twice your level in HP whenever you're brought below 0? That's what this trick would essentially do, so if a player brought it to your table, would you say yay or nay?

[Psyren]

True, you could rule it either way, since the Floodslain Orc is the only undead to have Ferocity, and it's not exactly like any 3.P material has been well edited ever.

That's a bit harsh for one mistake out of dozens and dozens of undead written to date.



I'll ask this though; do you think that it's too strong of an ability to recover twice your level in HP whenever you're brought below 0? That's what this trick would essentially do, so if a player brought it to your table, would you say yay or nay?

I do. Bad enough that you'd have an undead that can go into negatives in the first place - they're designed with that not being an option - much less one that will autoheal when it does.

I also don't know how I feel about converting to nonlethal on a creature that can't take nonlethal.



P.S thank you Psyren for showing me the relevant text that said undead are able to rage at all :smallsmile:

You're welcome!

[SangoProduction]

Well, it depends on what is interpreted as more specific. Could be as you say, where Ferocity is, and it overwrites the undead destruction. Or Ferocity would, normally, give you the ability to do that, but undead says no, because in the specific case of being undead.

[Zombimode]

-The rules for "a living creature falls unconscious when brought below 0 HP" and "an undead is destroyed when brought below 0 HP" use the same wording, just with different outcomes, so If the Ferocity wording of "remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0" can supersede one, it should work on the other

No, this does not follow at all.

A living creature with Ferocity will remain conscious when it would normally unconscious. An undead creature does not become unconscious when brought below 0 HP (actually, aren't undead destroyed when they get below 1 HP?). It gets destroyed. The ability does not do anything about the creature getting destroyed. Thus this will happen regardless of what the feat would do. So, Ferocity on an Undead would try to Keep the creature conscious. But at the same time the creature would get destroyed and can not benefit from its consciousness.

[Psyren]

No, this does not follow at all.

A living creature with Ferocity will remain conscious when it would normally unconscious. An undead creature does not become unconscious when brought below 0 HP (actually, aren't undead destroyed when they get below 1 HP?). It gets destroyed. The ability does not do anything about the creature getting destroyed. Thus this will happen regardless of what the feat would do. So, Ferocity on an Undead would try to Keep the creature conscious. But at the same time the creature would get destroyed and can not benefit from its consciousness.

This is basically how I rule it. It has Ferocity because orc, but it does nothing of value because undead.

[Boggartbae]

Well, it depends on what is interpreted as more specific. Could be as you say, where Ferocity is, and it overwrites the undead destruction. Or Ferocity would, normally, give you the ability to do that, but undead says no, because in the specific case of being undead.


No, this does not follow at all.

A living creature with Ferocity will remain conscious when it would normally unconscious. An undead creature does not become unconscious when brought below 0 HP (actually, aren't undead destroyed when they get below 1 HP?). It gets destroyed. The ability does not do anything about the creature getting destroyed. Thus this will happen regardless of what the feat would do. So, Ferocity on an Undead would try to Keep the creature conscious. But at the same time the creature would get destroyed and can not benefit from its consciousness.

These are both really good points; I was looking at the "can remain fighting" part of Ferocity, and how it's different than Diehard's "doesn't go unconscious". I would say it's ok, but obviously you don't want to break the game, and being an undead has a tendency to do just that without other special abilities.

Either way, I found another great use for the Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life rage powers: if you get a Ring of Regeneration, and combine it with the Fast Healer feat, then you can heal around 4 lethal and 4 nonlethal damage every round, so converting your damage into non-lethal gets a lot more powerful.

Actually I just realized that Ferocity essentially makes you immune to nonlethal damage anyway, since you don't go unconscious if you don't want to, so maybe you don't need the Ring and the Feat.

[Psyren]

Technically, Ferocity only keeps you conscious if your HP total is below zero. It doesn't actually kick in if your HP total is positive but your nonlethal damage is higher. It also doesn't protect you from other forms of unconsciousness, like sleep and color spray.

[Boggartbae]

Technically, Ferocity only keeps you conscious if your HP total is below zero. It doesn't actually kick in if your HP total is positive but your nonlethal damage is higher. It also doesn't protect you from other forms of unconsciousness, like sleep and color spray.

I'll admit that I knew that, but RAW be damned that makes no sense.

Edit: obviously it doesn't protect you from sleep and colour spray, but I think RAI it should probably protect you from nonlethal damage.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

It's interestingly close to the Undead Resilience thing some have in 5e, where they get to roll upon "death" to see if they just get up again instead. Doesn't work by RAW but could be a neat unique ability to give the Floodslain Orc (or a very nifty Orc-exclusive archetype/PrC dealing with defying death).