I Spit in Your General Direction! (3.5)

[SirNibbles]

I was interested in trying out a build based on spitting, but I had a few rules questions (as well as some optimisation questions).

(Vague) Build plan:
Yuan-ti Fangs Graft (Fiend Folio, page 215)

Spit Venom (Serpent Kingdoms, page 147)
Deadly Spittle (Serpent Kingdoms, page 145)
Improved Spit (Serpent Kingdoms, page 146)

Ranger or Druid or some other class that gets Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms, page 158)

It's not much, but an unlimited-use 30 foot (or 45 foot; see below) poison and acid cone spit seems nice.

Questions:

1. Improved Spit says it doubles the range of your spit attack. Normally with Spit Venom, you have a 30 foot spit. Deadly Spittle changes that to a 15 foot cone.

"Each time you take the feat, the range of your spit attack increases by an amount equal to its original range."

A strict RAW reading would lead me to believe that it increases it by the original range, 30 feet, even if I'm using the 15 foot cone modification. RAI is probably +15 feet each time the feat is taken for the cone, +30 feet for the regular spit.

2. Can multiple continuous items or castings of Venomfire modified with Energy Substitution, for example to give +1d6 Acid and +1d6 Cold, similar to how a weapon enchanted with Flaming and Corrosive would deal +1d6 Fire and +1d6 Acid?

Again, I'm not very hopeful due to the idea that they are bonuses from the same source.

3. Does a spit attack count as a weapon for the purposes of Weapon Focus and Kensai's Signature Weapon?

4. Deadly Spittle (the feat that turns your ranged touch attack spit into a cone) does not mention any save to avoid it. Do you roll an attack roll, as you would for a single glob of spit? Should it allow a reflex save (by RAW)? What would that save be? Is your spit just unavoidable?
____

Optimisation:

1. What's a good flavourful backup option to just spitting on everyone?

2. What other feats should be taken to spit better?

[Blue Jay]

Questions:

1. Improved Spit says it doubles the range of your spit attack. Normally with Spit Venom, you have a 30 foot spit. Deadly Spittle changes that to a 15 foot cone.

"Each time you take the feat, the range of your spit attack increases by an amount equal to its original range."

A strict RAW reading would lead me to believe that it increases it by the original range, 30 feet, even if I'm using the 15 foot cone modification. RAI is probably +15 feet each time the feat is taken for the cone, +30 feet for the regular spit.

I would work with the assumption that it only affects spit attacks that function as ranged attacks, and not spit attacks that function as area attacks. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal, either way: if you're taking feats to turn a 15-foot cone of poison into a 30-foot cone of poison, you're obviously not trying to break the game with cheese, so I wouldn't care.


2. Can multiple continuous items or castings of Venomfire modified with Energy Substitution, for example to give +1d6 Acid and +1d6 Cold, similar to how a weapon enchanted with Flaming and Corrosive would deal +1d6 Fire and +1d6 Acid?

Again, I'm not very hopeful due to the idea that they are bonuses from the same source.

I might consider this a bit cheesy, especially if you mix it with multiple-attack effects like Whirling Frenzy and Rapid Shot. I mean, assuming you've got a yuan-ti fangs graft, and assuming you were allowed flaws to get extra feats, you could hypothetically get 30d6 energy damage in a single round at 5th level (three spits, +5d6 acid, +5d6 cold on each one). But, you'd have to optimize around some meaningful restrictions (like spell duration), and you'd be investing resources in something specific at the expense of other things (like your BAB and helpful ranged-weapon feats), so it probably wouldn't be a terrible game-breaker.

You might consider a race that has a natural poison ability, like a greensnake shinomen naga from Oriental Adventures:
Str +2, Dex +4
Bite (only in a grapple; no damage, but delivers poison)
poison 1d3 Con
Alternate Form (human)
no RHD
LA +1


3. Does a spit attack count as a weapon for the purposes of Weapon Focus and Kensai's Signature Weapon?

I think so. But, it only works when you spit with an actual attack roll (i.e., not the area attack). Complete Arcane lets you take Weapon Focus with either "ranged spells" or "touch spells"; so I don't see why it wouldn't work with a poison spit ability.

[SangoProduction]

For optimization, just take any good archer feat. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269705-Toxophilite-The-Archery-Handbook)

Also, I, personally, would assume that, since there's no save, it's still an attack roll. So Zen Archer (since you're going druid anyway) is pretty nice.

Something of special note: it takes a standard action to spit. Thus it's not an attack that you can just fit in to a routine granted by BAB. But, with just a 1 level dip in to Barbarian, you can get Whirling Frenzy (+1 Attack per round, not just on full attack), and Rapid Shot (again, +1/round). This immediately sets you at 3 attacks per round, on a touch attack, that hits an AoE...but I don't think there's any more scaling you can do on the # attacks front.

Then again, if your spit is no longer an attack, then at most you can make 1 attack per round. Although, if you are somehow allowed Venomfire, then you'd be out DPSing an unoptimized blasting mage, for longer stints of time (theoretically).

To make your poison itself more effective, here's a poisoner's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?63130-Poison-(the-end-all-information-list-with-Poison-lists)).

[Muggins]

Perhaps this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20453207&postcount=184) would be of interest to you? It combines the Dissolving Spittle soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum and the Share Soulmeld feat from the same book for a significant number of spit-based touch attacks each turn.

In fact, I'd say Dissolving Spittle in general is a pretty good vector for what you're going for.

[daremetoidareyo]

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20020102a


Ursuma Pepper Powder: This powder is ground from very hot peppers imported from Chondath and mixed with a secret alchemical substance. When put in a person's mouth, the user takes 1 point of subdual damage. One round later, the pepper powder can be spat into a foe's eyes. If the spitter hits with a ranged touch attack (10-foot range increment), the recipient must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 13) or take 1d6 points of subdual damage and be blinded for 1d6 rounds. "Spitting" is considered an exotic weapon. Unless proficient, spitters suffer the standard -4 penalty to spit attacks with Ursuma pepper powder. Ursuma pepper powder is not sold, and therefore has no price. Its weight is negligible.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

*nevermind, stupid question*

[The Viscount]

1. By strict raw it would only improve a regular spit venom by +30 feet. It wouldn't really work to add to deadly spittle because this is only adding range, so can't change the cone. It's a one dimensional interaction with a three dimensional shape.

2. I would say that energy substitution with venomfire would not allow you to stack, since it's still the same spell.

3. The rules on weaponlike spells are a good guide for determining stuff as a weapon. Spit venom requires a touch attack, but could not score a critical hit or get sneak attack. Thus, not a weapon for the purpose of weapon focus. Dissolving spittle would count, as a counterexample.

4. Deadly Spittle mentions a cone shaped burst, like with spells. This means there isn't an attack roll, and there isn't a Ref save to avoid being hit, which is why this feat has such strict requirements. The target still gets the regular fort save against the poison used, obviously.
I'd be interested to see what people think about using deadly spittle with dissolving spittle.

[Blue Jay]

3. The rules on weaponlike spells are a good guide for determining stuff as a weapon. Spit venom requires a touch attack, but could not score a critical hit or get sneak attack. Thus, not a weapon for the purpose of weapon focus. Dissolving spittle would count, as a counterexample.

The only reason poison doesn't usually qualify for critical hits or precision damage is because it's usually delivered as "extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage" (from the SRD on critical hits). But, with the Spit Venom feat, you're not delivering the poison as extra damage: you're delivering it as the normal damage of the attack. So by RAW, poison should be eligible for critical hits and precision damage.

But at any rate, criticals and precision damage aren't required for the Weapon Focus feat: the only requirement for weaponlike spells is that they include an attack roll, so there's no reason to think special attacks like Spit Venom would be any different.

[Endarire]

Energy Substituion to stack venomfire is debatable, though I'd lean toward it working since you could use Energy Substitution on fire shield to get various energy types to damage. Energy Admixture would definitely work.

[The Viscount]

The only reason poison doesn't usually qualify for critical hits or precision damage is because it's usually delivered as "extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage" (from the SRD on critical hits). But, with the Spit Venom feat, you're not delivering the poison as extra damage: you're delivering it as the normal damage of the attack. So by RAW, poison should be eligible for critical hits and precision damage.

But at any rate, criticals and precision damage aren't required for the Weapon Focus feat: the only requirement for weaponlike spells is that they include an attack roll, so there's no reason to think special attacks like Spit Venom would be any different.

I was merely using the weaponlike spells as a sort of template for the things a strange weapon should do, it's not actually set criteria something must fulfill to be a weapon.
Weapon is a rather restricted list, and you must be proficient with the selected weapon to take weapon focus. That's a difficult thing to prove.

[Blue Jay]

I was merely using the weaponlike spells as a sort of template for the things a strange weapon should do, it's not actually set criteria something must fulfill to be a weapon.
Weapon is a rather restricted list, and you must be proficient with the selected weapon to take weapon focus. That's a difficult thing to prove.

Ah, I see. Yeah, it's kind of an oddball build idea, so of course you'd expect it to be contingent on a lot of marginal rulings about things like proficiency (which I didn't even consider before you mentioned it). So, I feel like this kind of build is tough to do as a theoretical exercise like this: it needs a well-defined rules context.

Weapon Focus doesn't seem like an issue to me, so if I were the DM here, I'd just shrug and let it happen. And I think RAW agrees here. Spellcasters always make attack rolls without non-proficiency penalties, and monsters always make natural and special attacks without non-proficiency penalties, so I'd assume that lets them count as proficient. But I guess I don't really know.

But using Spit Venom as a kensai's Signature Weapon feels really weird, so if I were the DM here, I might be inclined to ask the player to stay away from that; but I might allow it with sufficiently good justification and evidence that the player isn't trying to break the game.

But, yeah... as a theoretical exercise, I feel like there are a lot of grey areas.

[Sian]

refluffing Dragonfire Adept might be an option :)

[JanusJones]

I was interested in trying out a build based on spitting, but I had a few rules questions (as well as some optimisation questions).

(Vague) Build plan:
Yuan-ti Fangs Graft (Fiend Folio, page 215)

Spit Venom (Serpent Kingdoms, page 147)
Deadly Spittle (Serpent Kingdoms, page 145)
Improved Spit (Serpent Kingdoms, page 146)

Ranger or Druid or some other class that gets Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms, page 158)

It's not much, but an unlimited-use 30 foot (or 45 foot; see below) poison and acid cone spit seems nice.

Questions:

1. Improved Spit says it doubles the range of your spit attack. Normally with Spit Venom, you have a 30 foot spit. Deadly Spittle changes that to a 15 foot cone.

"Each time you take the feat, the range of your spit attack increases by an amount equal to its original range."

A strict RAW reading would lead me to believe that it increases it by the original range, 30 feet, even if I'm using the 15 foot cone modification. RAI is probably +15 feet each time the feat is taken for the cone, +30 feet for the regular spit.

2. Can multiple continuous items or castings of Venomfire modified with Energy Substitution, for example to give +1d6 Acid and +1d6 Cold, similar to how a weapon enchanted with Flaming and Corrosive would deal +1d6 Fire and +1d6 Acid?

Again, I'm not very hopeful due to the idea that they are bonuses from the same source.

3. Does a spit attack count as a weapon for the purposes of Weapon Focus and Kensai's Signature Weapon?

4. Deadly Spittle (the feat that turns your ranged touch attack spit into a cone) does not mention any save to avoid it. Do you roll an attack roll, as you would for a single glob of spit? Should it allow a reflex save (by RAW)? What would that save be? Is your spit just unavoidable?
____

Optimisation:

1. What's a good flavourful backup option to just spitting on everyone?

2. What other feats should be taken to spit better?

I wrote a guide (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11091.0). It was a while ago. It was fun to write, though!

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Spitting is so three years ago.