Paladin of the Ancients isn't a bad idea?!?

[Trey Bright]

So I know Ancients Oath is looked at as probably the least desirable, or at least it is in my circles, but I thought taking it up to 15th level, and combining it with Totem Barbarian Level 3 with Bear and playing as a half orc would make you very tough to kill. You'd be able to rage and take half damage from everything except psychic damage and if you do hit 0 HP, you can instead choose to go to 1 twice. Once because half orc and once cause of your paladin oath. How's this sound? Anything else to add on for the last two levels to make this better? Two levels of fighter to get another fighting style maybe?

Edit: So yeah, OoA is actaully super awesome. My bad. I never really looked at the class features. I just took the flavor text at the beginning to mean that the Paladin is a super hippy, and just never read past it. My bad! XD

[Meta]

So I know Ancients Oath is looked at as probably the least desirable, or at least it is in my circles, but I thought taking it up to 15th level, and combining it with Totem Barbarian Level 3 with Bear and playing as a half orc would make you very tough to kill. You'd be able to rage and take half damage from everything except psychic damage and if you do hit 0 HP, you can instead choose to go to 1 twice. Once because half orc and once cause of your paladin oath. How's this sound? Anything else to add on for the last two levels to make this better? Two levels of fighter to get another fighting style maybe?

Why do you think Ancients is bad? It has a decent spell list and incredible defensive features. Is there any other build in the game that says "yes, I would like my team to laugh at spellcasters" as easily? That alone makes you an asset.

[The Shadowdove]

I'd say ancients is one of the most favored. I've been to a lot of Adventure's league tables and events this year and probably 2/3 paladins are ancients.

[MeeposFire]

So I know Ancients Oath is looked at as probably the least desirable, or at least it is in my circles, but I thought taking it up to 15th level, and combining it with Totem Barbarian Level 3 with Bear and playing as a half orc would make you very tough to kill. You'd be able to rage and take half damage from everything except psychic damage and if you do hit 0 HP, you can instead choose to go to 1 twice. Once because half orc and once cause of your paladin oath. How's this sound? Anything else to add on for the last two levels to make this better? Two levels of fighter to get another fighting style maybe?

Actually around here most people think very highly of Oath of the Ancients. While vengeance does higher damage overall OoA is probably the best of the PHB oaths with its solid spells, great aura, and a great capstone. The channel divinity is weak but that is probably the least important part.

Are you going to go with medium armor then because in heavy armor you lose many parts of your rage feature? Bear gives part of it back but not all of it. Personally I like OoA al the way up to 20 since the capstone actually fees like one and more paladin levels give you more spells sots to use for smiting. On the other hand reckless attack allows you to crit mroe often which means more crit smites which is great. If you do use barbarian then the great weapon feat becomes more potent as a possibility though with how MAD paladins are (and potential use of medium armor contributes even more to that) you may really need those ASIs for stats in which case sword and shield is probably more solid even with a half orc.

[Trey Bright]

Actually around here most people think very highly of Oath of the Ancients. While vengeance does higher damage overall OoA is probably the best of the PHB oaths with its solid spells, great aura, and a great capstone. The channel divinity is weak but that is probably the least important part.

Are you going to go with medium armor then because in heavy armor you lose many parts of your rage feature? Bear gives part of it back but not all of it. Personally I like OoA al the way up to 20 since the capstone actually fees like one and more paladin levels give you more spells sots to use for smiting. On the other hand reckless attack allows you to crit mroe often which means more crit smites which is great. If you do use barbarian then the great weapon feat becomes more potent as a possibility though with how MAD paladins are (and potential use of medium armor contributes even more to that) you may really need those ASIs for stats in which case sword and shield is probably more solid even with a half orc.

I'm sorry, I'm not too great with the abbreviations. ASIs?
And I suppose the reason for taking the barbarian path would specifically be so you don't have to worry about your AC so you could go great weapons instead of using the shield. Also, with the Resistance to Spells, you don't really need the bear, so you could just go straight berserker and get those benefits instead?

[pdegan2814]

I'm sorry, I'm not too great with the abbreviations. ASIs?
And I suppose the reason for taking the barbarian path would specifically be so you don't have to worry about your AC so you could go great weapons instead of using the shield. Also, with the Resistance to Spells, you don't really need the bear, so you could just go straight berserker and get those benefits instead?

ASI - Ability Score Increase, it's the stat bump you get at level 4/8/12/etc.
MAD - Multi-Attribute Dependent, as in requiring good scores in multiple stats to be effective. Paladins want high Strength, Constitution AND Charisma to get the most of their abilities. As opposed to Single-Attribute Dependent, like most Rogues who queue just about all their abilities off Dex.

And multiclassing Paladin with Barbarian, in this case I believe he's mostly talking about pairing Reckless Attack with the Great Weapon Master feat, and also increasing your chance of landing a Critical Hit so you can use Divine Smite on crits more often.

[pdegan2814]

So I know Ancients Oath is looked at as probably the least desirable, or at least it is in my circles, but I thought taking it up to 15th level, and combining it with Totem Barbarian Level 3 with Bear and playing as a half orc would make you very tough to kill. You'd be able to rage and take half damage from everything except psychic damage and if you do hit 0 HP, you can instead choose to go to 1 twice. Once because half orc and once cause of your paladin oath. How's this sound? Anything else to add on for the last two levels to make this better? Two levels of fighter to get another fighting style maybe?

Among a lot of the folks I play with, Oath Of The Ancients is very popular. Moonbeam is a nice AoE attack, I will NEVER say no to Misty Step, and that spell resistance aura is just AWESOME. It may not help against a dragon's breath attack, but between your aura boost to saving throws and the spell resistance, you and your party will LAUGH in the face of Fireballs and the like :)

Plus, in the community I play D&D with, many of us are fans of what we refer to lovingly as "Fey Bulls--t", so Elf/Fey stuff is pretty popular :)

[MeeposFire]

I'm sorry, I'm not too great with the abbreviations. ASIs?
And I suppose the reason for taking the barbarian path would specifically be so you don't have to worry about your AC so you could go great weapons instead of using the shield. Also, with the Resistance to Spells, you don't really need the bear, so you could just go straight berserker and get those benefits instead?

Sorry ASI is in common use around here for attribute score increase.

I am not sure how barbarian increases your AC though. Paladin already gives you medium armor and while its unarmored AC could be better than medium armor I am not sure how you are going to achieve that barring having REALLY high stats. I shall explain why below.

A paladin really wants high str and high cha to really make the most of its abilities and as much con as possible. The barbarian wants high str so that wil not be a problem but they need at least moderate dex and of course high con. Going unarmored as a barbarian puts even more emphasis on your con and possibly your dex scores if you want it to be higher than medium armor. Getting high str, cha, con, and getting moderate or better dex is a tal order especially when multiclassing which may cost you an attribute increase and you are also planning on using another increase to get the great weapon fighting feat.

I just do not think you can afford all of that unless you are starting with REALLY high stats and/or using houserules that enable you to have higher stats or free feats.

If you are getting barb for the AC I think that really is not needed. Plate armor gives you an 18 AC which for the unarmored barb would require a total of +8 in ability mods between dex and con which is not easy to get when you are picking up feats and need to boost strength.

Bear has a couple of benefits. First it works on heavy armor unlike most other rage abilities so potentially you could wear plate and get half damage which is ok (I still do not like heavy armor on a barb though because you lose the extra damage and things like that but it does work). Second it is easy to forget that ancients aura works only on spells not magic in general. That dragon that blows fire on you will deal full damage to you but only half on a bear totem raging. Resistance to spell damage is great but there are still plenty of things that it does not work against that bear does (poison for instance).

Berserker does deal nice damage but you can already gain one of its best benefits full time (immunity to fear) and that extra attack it can get has a nasty drawback (exhaustion). Personally since you get fear immunity from paladin I would not recommend berserker so much.

Unless you have really high stats I think you need to decide what you really want because I do not think you will have enough attribute increases to do what you really want.

[Trey Bright]

ASI - Ability Score Increase, it's the stat bump you get at level 4/8/12/etc.
MAD - Multi-Attribute Dependent, as in requiring good scores in multiple stats to be effective. Paladins want high Strength, Constitution AND Charisma to get the most of their abilities. As opposed to Single-Attribute Dependent, like most Rogues who queue just about all their abilities off Dex.

And multiclassing Paladin with Barbarian, in this case I believe he's mostly talking about pairing Reckless Attack with the Great Weapon Master feat, and also increasing your chance of landing a Critical Hit so you can use Divine Smite on crits more often.

I've seen Great Wep Mast. in action with Reckless on Crit. Role. It was a favorite of a certain goliath barbarian. I can only imagine what adding divine smite would've done...it'd be brutal!!!

[Trey Bright]

Sorry ASI is in common use around here for attribute score increase.

I am not sure how barbarian increases your AC though. Paladin already gives you medium armor and while its unarmored AC could be better than medium armor I am not sure how you are going to achieve that barring having REALLY high stats. I shall explain why below.

A paladin really wants high str and high cha to really make the most of its abilities and as much con as possible. The barbarian wants high str so that wil not be a problem but they need at least moderate dex and of course high con. Going unarmored as a barbarian puts even more emphasis on your con and possibly your dex scores if you want it to be higher than medium armor. Getting high str, cha, con, and getting moderate or better dex is a tal order especially when multiclassing which may cost you an attribute increase and you are also planning on using another increase to get the great weapon fighting feat.

I just do not think you can afford all of that unless you are starting with REALLY high stats and/or using houserules that enable you to have higher stats or free feats.

If you are getting barb for the AC I think that really is not needed. Plate armor gives you an 18 AC which for the unarmored barb would require a total of +8 in ability mods between dex and con which is not easy to get when you are picking up feats and need to boost strength.

Bear has a couple of benefits. First it works on heavy armor unlike most other rage abilities so potentially you could wear plate and get half damage which is ok (I still do not like heavy armor on a barb though because you lose the extra damage and things like that but it does work). Second it is easy to forget that ancients aura works only on spells not magic in general. That dragon that blows fire on you will deal full damage to you but only half on a bear totem raging. Resistance to spell damage is great but there are still plenty of things that it does not work against that bear does (poison for instance).

Berserker does deal nice damage but you can already gain one of its best benefits full time (immunity to fear) and that extra attack it can get has a nasty drawback (exhaustion). Personally since you get fear immunity from paladin I would not recommend berserker so much.

Unless you have really high stats I think you need to decide what you really want because I do not think you will have enough attribute increases to do what you really want.

I guess what I was planning was probably Plate (adimantine or +x if I can get it) and then take the Heavy Armor Master to get -3 off mundane damage. Then go Bear totem to three. Ancients to 15. (not necessarily in that order) then something else for the last two levels. Also probably pick up Tough for the extra HP. I'd prioritize Str and Cha, then Con, then Dex. Then probably Wiz, then Int. Also, I'd love to get my hands on a defending great sword. get great weapons master as well if at all possible, but I don't know if I'd have the ASI or feats to go that far.

This mostly just started as an idea of "what would be hard to kill? Bearbarian is tough...and if I get OoA and Half Orc, i get two get out of jail free cards." and it spiraled out of control from there. I dunno, would this even be viable? If you rolled for stats with crutches, it'd be a lot easier to manage.

Also, isn't raging still a standard if you only take Bearbarian to level 3?

[Trey Bright]

Among a lot of the folks I play with, Oath Of The Ancients is very popular. Moonbeam is a nice AoE attack, I will NEVER say no to Misty Step, and that spell resistance aura is just AWESOME. It may not help against a dragon's breath attack, but between your aura boost to saving throws and the spell resistance, you and your party will LAUGH in the face of Fireballs and the like :)

Plus, in the community I play D&D with, many of us are fans of what we refer to lovingly as "Fey Bulls--t", so Elf/Fey stuff is pretty popular :)

XD I love it. I kinda just glanced over it my first time flipping through the PHB and jumped right to sorcerer. I loved playing a sorcerer in 3.5 and, while I don't have a problem with paladins at all (in fact I really like the concept, I've just never had the chance to play any due to other characters I've been trying to play first), I just wasn't very interested in the "hippy" paladin and so I skipped over it. I actually skipped right to the Devotion since it was the closest to the paladin from 3.x

This is totally my bad. I would've played on ages ago if I had seen this before.

[MeeposFire]

I guess what I was planning was probably Plate (adimantine or +x if I can get it) and then take the Heavy Armor Master to get -3 off mundane damage. Then go Bear totem to three. Ancients to 15. (not necessarily in that order) then something else for the last two levels. Also probably pick up Tough for the extra HP. I'd prioritize Str and Cha, then Con, then Dex. Then probably Wiz, then Int. Also, I'd love to get my hands on a defending great sword. get great weapons master as well if at all possible, but I don't know if I'd have the ASI or feats to go that far.

This mostly just started as an idea of "what would be hard to kill? Bearbarian is tough...and if I get OoA and Half Orc, i get two get out of jail free cards." and it spiraled out of control from there. I dunno, would this even be viable? If you rolled for stats with crutches, it'd be a lot easier to manage.

Also, isn't raging still a standard if you only take Bearbarian to level 3?

Well if you plan to wear pate armor and be a barbarian then you are essentially REQUIRED to take bear totem at level 3 because otherwise your rage feature is completely wasted since all of its bonuses require you to not wear heavy armor.

The good news is that wearing plate means dex is no longer required at all and con is back to being needed only as much as it is for any paladin so you no longer need more attributes than any normal paladin.

Still you are planning on using several feats and a class that requires a lot of decent to good stats so its overall effectiveness really depends on what your starting stats will be. Personally I would not mess with toughness and if you really had the extra attribute increase to spare for it I would just raise your con more and get most of the same benefit and other benefits.

I am not sure what you is raging still standard for a bear totem. If you mean about whether bear makes any changes to rage it does tow big changes the first (resistance to everything except psychic) everybody remembers but the second (bear totem benefits works with heavy armor while all other normal rage benefits do not) not everybody remembers and since bear gives resistance to all physical damage you gain back the most important part of the standard rage in heavy armor.

[pdegan2814]

I guess what I was planning was probably Plate (adimantine or +x if I can get it) and then take the Heavy Armor Master to get -3 off mundane damage. Then go Bear totem to three. Ancients to 15. (not necessarily in that order) then something else for the last two levels. Also probably pick up Tough for the extra HP. I'd prioritize Str and Cha, then Con, then Dex. Then probably Wiz, then Int. Also, I'd love to get my hands on a defending great sword. get great weapons master as well if at all possible, but I don't know if I'd have the ASI or feats to go that far.

This mostly just started as an idea of "what would be hard to kill? Bearbarian is tough...and if I get OoA and Half Orc, i get two get out of jail free cards." and it spiraled out of control from there. I dunno, would this even be viable? If you rolled for stats with crutches, it'd be a lot easier to manage.

Also, isn't raging still a standard if you only take Bearbarian to level 3?

Heavy Armor Mastery doesn't scale all that well, as it's a flat reduction and only applies to non-magical BPS damage. Assuming you have 14 Dex to go with Medium Armor, you'd have to look at the armor's rating vs your Con score. Chain Shirt equals Con16, Scale & Breastplate equal Con18, and Half-Plate equal 20, plus there's the Stealth disadvantage to consider(sure your Stealth score may not be great anyway, but how noisy do you want to be?). I wouldn't grab Tough until you've gotten your Con score up to 20. Each 2pts in Con gives you half the Benefit of Tough, plus an AC bump and a Con save bump. Failing a Con save at high levels SUCKS. OUT. LOUD. As for Great Weapon Master, I'd prioritize that as the first feat after getting your stats where you want them. If you're raging you probably aren't casting very much, saving your spell slots for Divine Smite. So you probably won't need your Charisma above 16, maybe even 14 your Cha score does add to all your saves so keep that in mind. That frees up an ASI for other things. You might consider taking 4 levels of Barbarian instead of 3 so you still get 5 ASI/Feat slots to work with.

As for flavor, I'd say the natural level progression would be to start as a Barbarian who finds his calling and starts becoming a Paladin. Oath Of The Ancients would go really well thematically with a Barbarian multiclass, connecting with your ancestors, the spirits of the land, etc.

Hmm, now you've got me thinking. Only problem with splitting levels between Bearbarian and Ancients Paladin is they both have really awesome capstone abilities :)

[pdegan2814]

Well if you plan to wear pate armor and be a barbarian then you are essentially REQUIRED to take bear totem at level 3 because otherwise your rage feature is completely wasted since all of its bonuses require you to not wear heavy armor.

The good news is that wearing plate means dex is no longer required at all and con is back to being needed only as much as it is for any paladin so you no longer need more attributes than any normal paladin.

Still you are planning on using several feats and a class that requires a lot of decent to good stats so its overall effectiveness really depends on what your starting stats will be. Personally I would not mess with toughness and if you really had the extra attribute increase to spare for it I would just raise your con more and get most of the same benefit and other benefits.

I am not sure what you is raging still standard for a bear totem. If you mean about whether bear makes any changes to rage it does tow big changes the first (resistance to everything except psychic) everybody remembers but the second (bear totem benefits works with heavy armor while all other normal rage benefits do not) not everybody remembers and since bear gives resistance to all physical damage you gain back the most important part of the standard rage in heavy armor.

The other thing to keep in mind is if you want to use Heavy Armor you'll need to be a Paladin at Level 1 or waste an ASI/Feat slot. Babarians don't get proficiency w/ Heavy Armor, and Paladins get it when you start as one but NOT when you multiclass into one.

[Foxhound438]

there was a similar thread recently where the OP said their playgroup thought taking ancients was "gimping" their character, and the results were just about unanimous: OoA is unequivocally amazing, with solid offense from base paladin and amazing defense from the subclass and the base stuff on top. They don't win the (((sword))) measuring contest that is out-damaging every other party member at all times, but between the spell list and the aura at 7, you can swing fights just by existing.

[MeeposFire]

Heavy Armor Mastery doesn't scale all that well, as it's a flat reduction and only applies to non-magical BPS damage. Assuming you have 14 Dex to go with Medium Armor, you'd have to look at the armor's rating vs your Con score. Chain Shirt equals Con16, Scale & Breastplate equal Con18, and Half-Plate equal 20, plus there's the Stealth disadvantage to consider(sure your Stealth score may not be great anyway, but how noisy do you want to be?). I wouldn't grab Tough until you've gotten your Con score up to 20. Each 2pts in Con gives you half the Benefit of Tough, plus an AC bump and a Con save bump. Failing a Con save at high levels SUCKS. OUT. LOUD. As for Great Weapon Master, I'd prioritize that as the first feat after getting your stats where you want them. If you're raging you probably aren't casting very much, saving your spell slots for Divine Smite. So you probably won't need your Charisma above 16, maybe even 14 your Cha score does add to all your saves so keep that in mind. That frees up an ASI for other things. You might consider taking 4 levels of Barbarian instead of 3 so you still get 5 ASI/Feat slots to work with.

As for flavor, I'd say the natural level progression would be to start as a Barbarian who finds his calling and starts becoming a Paladin. Oath Of The Ancients would go really well thematically with a Barbarian multiclass, connecting with your ancestors, the spirits of the land, etc.

Hmm, now you've got me thinking. Only problem with splitting levels between Bearbarian and Ancients Paladin is they both have really awesome capstone abilities :)

This is what I am worried about how are going to get all these things unless you get awesome starting stats? I assume you would recommend to the OP to raise your str score before other stats correct? After that you are going to take great weapon feat, raise your con to 20, AND take toughness? There is just no way and then we are talking about adding medium armor (so dex raised from 10 or so to 14) that just makes that problem worse.

More than likely the OP is going to have to make some tough choices and pick which things to sacrifice for their character. Going heavy armor can help with dex but then almost requires bear to make it worthwhile.

Heavy armor master at least comes with a +1 to str so it helps with attributes but I would agree it is an easy thing drop to get more attributes especially since the OP will get resistance to weapon damage from bear rage.

Unless starting stats are HUGE I think the OP should go with high str and cha and put as much left into con. Go bear when you multiclass into barbarian and stick with plate. The great weapon feat can work with reckless attack and you can use the rest of your attribute increases on your stats to help.


As for stealth if somebody wants to be stealthy as a paladin I would recommend a dex based paladin and using medium to light armor (maybe medium armor master at that point) rather than trying to do that with this barbarian build. I just think the OP is stretched too thin already and cannot afford to try to add more to it (fun character idea but I am not sure it can ALL be done in one character).

[Sariel Vailo]

Vengence ooa crown the ua oathbreaker devotion my list from fav to least fav

[Trey Bright]

Heavy Armor Mastery doesn't scale all that well, as it's a flat reduction and only applies to non-magical BPS damage. Assuming you have 14 Dex to go with Medium Armor, you'd have to look at the armor's rating vs your Con score. Chain Shirt equals Con16, Scale & Breastplate equal Con18, and Half-Plate equal 20, plus there's the Stealth disadvantage to consider(sure your Stealth score may not be great anyway, but how noisy do you want to be?). I wouldn't grab Tough until you've gotten your Con score up to 20. Each 2pts in Con gives you half the Benefit of Tough, plus an AC bump and a Con save bump. Failing a Con save at high levels SUCKS. OUT. LOUD. As for Great Weapon Master, I'd prioritize that as the first feat after getting your stats where you want them. If you're raging you probably aren't casting very much, saving your spell slots for Divine Smite. So you probably won't need your Charisma above 16, maybe even 14 your Cha score does add to all your saves so keep that in mind. That frees up an ASI for other things. You might consider taking 4 levels of Barbarian instead of 3 so you still get 5 ASI/Feat slots to work with.

As for flavor, I'd say the natural level progression would be to start as a Barbarian who finds his calling and starts becoming a Paladin. Oath Of The Ancients would go really well thematically with a Barbarian multiclass, connecting with your ancestors, the spirits of the land, etc.

Hmm, now you've got me thinking. Only problem with splitting levels between Bearbarian and Ancients Paladin is they both have really awesome capstone abilities :)

Both of their capstone abilities are great!!! The OoA is so good with the half-orc too because when you make it to level 20, you have two lives before hitting 0 hp and a super form. I could totally see getting knocked down to 0 hp, then standing back up at 1. Then enemy hits you again because most enemies at this point have multiple attacks. You stand up again at 1hp. On your turn, activate your special to start regening health and cast a cure as a bonus action, because you can. Boom, ready for round 2.

I also really like the idea of taking Bear and just halfing (almost) all damage. I suppose it comes down to whether you want to play more defensively or offensively. Maybe multiclass: great weapons master reckless attack if you want more offensive power, or stay OoA: pick up a shield and take shield master if you want to just be more defensive?

[Trey Bright]

This is what I am worried about how are going to get all these things unless you get awesome starting stats? I assume you would recommend to the OP to raise your str score before other stats correct? After that you are going to take great weapon feat, raise your con to 20, AND take toughness? There is just no way and then we are talking about adding medium armor (so dex raised from 10 or so to 14) that just makes that problem worse.

More than likely the OP is going to have to make some tough choices and pick which things to sacrifice for their character. Going heavy armor can help with dex but then almost requires bear to make it worthwhile.

Heavy armor master at least comes with a +1 to str so it helps with attributes but I would agree it is an easy thing drop to get more attributes especially since the OP will get resistance to weapon damage from bear rage.

Unless starting stats are HUGE I think the OP should go with high str and cha and put as much left into con. Go bear when you multiclass into barbarian and stick with plate. The great weapon feat can work with reckless attack and you can use the rest of your attribute increases on your stats to help.


As for stealth if somebody wants to be stealthy as a paladin I would recommend a dex based paladin and using medium to light armor (maybe medium armor master at that point) rather than trying to do that with this barbarian build. I just think the OP is stretched too thin already and cannot afford to try to add more to it (fun character idea but I am not sure it can ALL be done in one character).

Heavy Armor Master is basically pointless at high levels? Then I suppose just using it as an ASI is a much better choice. Yeah, for this, you'd need boots of elvenkind to make this build sneaky at all. Wasn't gonna put much in to Dex at all. Would it be better to sword n board and take shield master instead?

[Trey Bright]

It would make a lot more sense to start as a barbarian...hmmm. I'll have to mess around a little bit with medium armor and stats to see what happens. Thanks for the input guys :D I have an interesting idea for a backstory that I think might work, but may have to be tweaked if y'all are interested in hearing it?

[Arkhios]

You can reply to multiple posts at once, just click the quote mark icon with a + in the bottom right corner and then reply to thread as you'd normally.

That said, Oath of the Ancients is far from bad as already proved many times. In fact, in my opinion, it's the most versatile option so far. Plus it's flavor appeals to me because it's not a 'stick-up-in-their-ass' judge, jury, and executioner as the rest are.

I'm currently playing one and also considering a barbarian dip somewhere in the future. Possibly Storm Herald because of flavor-related reasons.

[Spiritchaser]

So I know Ancients Oath is looked at as probably the least desirable, or at least it is in my circles, but I thought taking it up to 15th level, and combining it with Totem Barbarian Level 3 with Bear and playing as a half orc would make you very tough to kill. You'd be able to rage and take half damage from everything except psychic damage and if you do hit 0 HP, you can instead choose to go to 1 twice. Once because half orc and once cause of your paladin oath. How's this sound? Anything else to add on for the last two levels to make this better? Two levels of fighter to get another fighting style maybe?

I’d personally rate OOA as top tier, right next to oathbreaker for overall power, and a large chunk of that at level 7.

I have to wonder though, if OOA is disliked in your group, is there perhaps a reason?

OOA is relatively mobile, with misty step, though somewhat less so than vengeance. It is capable (for a paladin) of doing area of effect damage. It is very capable against spell casters, and it is less strong than vengeance or devotion against single targets.

Do you, perhaps, find yourselves in situations where the strengths are less useful?

If you mostly face strong single foes who do not do magical damage, I can see how OOA might be less appropriate.

[Crgaston]

Oath of the Ancients is my favorite as well. Heavy Armor Master... there seems to be a board consensus that it doesn’t scale well, but I’m not sure I agree with that, especially for your concept. First, it could even out an odd strength score. Second, even at high levels, very few monsters deal magical B/P/S damage, and many have multi-attack. So, against a dragon, it’s potentially saving you 12 points against a claw/claw/bite/ tail PER ROUND. And it lets you wade into large groups of lesser enemies much easier. If you were to trade that for say, +2 CON, it would get you at most 20 extra max HP.

With a half orc and standard array, you could build a Pally/Barb like this...

S 15 (+2)
D 12
C 13 (+1)
I 8
W10
Ch 14

So HAM would give you an 18 strength which you could honestly just leave alone, and then alternate bumping CHA and CON and you’d be fine.

[MeeposFire]

Heavy Armor Master is basically pointless at high levels? Then I suppose just using it as an ASI is a much better choice. Yeah, for this, you'd need boots of elvenkind to make this build sneaky at all. Wasn't gonna put much in to Dex at all. Would it be better to sword n board and take shield master instead?

Heavy Armor master does get less effective as you level as base damage tends to increase and the possibility of magic weapon attacks increase but some people tend to overstate it. Enemies tend to gain multiple attacks to get their damage so that actually works in heavy armor masters favor. Also while magic physical damage does happen more at higher levels than lower levels it is not that common so the feat will still help.

The only reason I think to avoid it for you is that I think you need so many stats that you cannot afford the feat if you want those other feats too and considering that you already will be getting resistance from rage I just think it is an easier feat to drop than say great weapon master since that extra damage can be really effective when combined with reckless attack.

If you had high enough stats or there were houserules that essentially gave you extra feats one way or another then heavy armor master could be fine I just do not think you can afford the way you are currently describing how you want your character to grow.

[Sigreid]

I'm with some of the earlier posters. I'm real curious why the OP's group is so down on Ancients? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think they're pretty amazing.

[MeeposFire]

I'm with some of the earlier posters. I'm real curious why the OP's group is so down on Ancients? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think they're pretty amazing.

I think it is an offensive versus defensive thing. It has no special weapon based offensive boost which tends to make some people think it is weak but has strong defense which sometimes people ignore.

[Sigreid]

I think it is an offensive versus defensive thing. It has no special weapon based offensive boost which tends to make some people think it is weak but has strong defense which sometimes people ignore.

I guess, but offense means nothing if you don't live long enough to apply it. 😁

[MeeposFire]

I guess, but offense means nothing if you don't live long enough to apply it. 😁

Of course defense wins championships but offense is sexy.

[Specter]

Ancients is probably the best Mage Slayer out there, with resistance to magical damage, +CHA on saves, a diverse spell list and a restraining Channel Divinity which can really destroy mages. If you pick up Mage Slayer as a feat it's even worse for them.

[suplee215]

I wonder how much your table is bias towards offense. It happens. The table I play at has casters taking almost exclusively spells that do damage with control scuffed at by some. If you want to play Oath of Ancients dealing damage you can certainly do it, but it is best as a tank. I played a dex based one that just shrugs off fire balls once you get to level 7. You are not failing many if any saving throws . And you get to support the party with those buffs.

[Trey Bright]

You can reply to multiple posts at once, just click the quote mark icon with a + in the bottom right corner and then reply to thread as you'd normally.

That said, Oath of the Ancients is far from bad as already proved many times. In fact, in my opinion, it's the most versatile option so far. Plus it's flavor appeals to me because it's not a 'stick-up-in-their-ass' judge, jury, and executioner as the rest are.

I'm currently playing one and also considering a barbarian dip somewhere in the future. Possibly Storm Herald because of flavor-related reasons.
What do ya know? That's nifty :D THanks!!


I’d personally rate OOA as top tier, right next to oathbreaker for overall power, and a large chunk of that at level 7.

I have to wonder though, if OOA is disliked in your group, is there perhaps a reason?

OOA is relatively mobile, with misty step, though somewhat less so than vengeance. It is capable (for a paladin) of doing area of effect damage. It is very capable against spell casters, and it is less strong than vengeance or devotion against single targets.

Do you, perhaps, find yourselves in situations where the strengths are less useful?

If you mostly face strong single foes who do not do magical damage, I can see how OOA might be less appropriate.
It's mostly just come down to ignorance. I like Paladins well enough, but I played a sorcerer primarily in 3.x and so when 5e came out, I jumped right to the sorcerer, then wizard to see what they had available. After reading the flavor for OoA, I didn't even really read the abilities and just jumped right to OoD because it was the classic holy warrior type paladin that was prevalent in 3.x. So mostly, this is just my bad. My DM also has other classes he prefers to use when he plays (fighter mostly) so when I just said "meh, it sounds mediocre" he just kinda took my word for it. This is really my first time looking through the class features of this Oath, and I think it's really awesome!


Oath of the Ancients is my favorite as well. Heavy Armor Master... there seems to be a board consensus that it doesn’t scale well, but I’m not sure I agree with that, especially for your concept. First, it could even out an odd strength score. Second, even at high levels, very few monsters deal magical B/P/S damage, and many have multi-attack. So, against a dragon, it’s potentially saving you 12 points against a claw/claw/bite/ tail PER ROUND. And it lets you wade into large groups of lesser enemies much easier. If you were to trade that for say, +2 CON, it would get you at most 20 extra max HP.

With a half orc and standard array, you could build a Pally/Barb like this...

S 15 (+2)
D 12
C 13 (+1)
I 8
W10
Ch 14

So HAM would give you an 18 strength which you could honestly just leave alone, and then alternate bumping CHA and CON and you’d be fine.

That sounds just about right! Those stats seem just like what I was looking for, though I might just leave Dex at 10 and apply those two points to con or Cha.