What's the best low-mid level gish?

[krunchyfrogg]

I can think of the bladesinger, a fighter 1/bladelock, a paladin 2/sorcerer, a fighter 1 or 2/abjuror, a paladin 2/bard, and a valor bard.

What best? pros/cons of each?

[Chronos]

What does a gish mean to you? To me, it's someone who mostly swings a sword, but who uses magic to improve his sword-swinging. For that, it's tough to top pure paladin. Mixing in sorcerer will give you more spell slots, but in my experience, the paladin already has enough for the encounters where you actually need them: Nothing says that you have to smite every goblin and kobold you find.

But maybe you want someone who usually casts spells, but in armor, or someone who can choose between spell-slinging and weapon combat every round, or some other gish-concept, in which case something else would work better.

[krunchyfrogg]

What does a gish mean to you? To me, it's someone who mostly swings a sword, but who uses magic to improve his sword-swinging. For that, it's tough to top pure paladin. Mixing in sorcerer will give you more spell slots, but in my experience, the paladin already has enough for the encounters where you actually need them: Nothing says that you have to smite every goblin and kobold you find.

But maybe you want someone who usually casts spells, but in armor, or someone who can choose between spell-slinging and weapon combat every round, or some other gish-concept, in which case something else would work better.

I view gish as a guy who is going to be decent in melee but also a good spellcaster.

I do like arcane spells mixed in, which is why I'd consider paladin and sorcerer mixed. The sorcery spells are good utility ones, like blurr, misty step, mirror image, gfb and bb.

[MaxWilson]

I can think of the bladesinger, a fighter 1/bladelock, a paladin 2/sorcerer, a fighter 1 or 2/abjuror, a paladin 2/bard, and a valor bard.

What best? pros/cons of each?

"Best" in terms of being able to defeat the toughest foes solo, to defeat the toughest foes with a group, to end fights with typical foes quickly (high damage rate), to go the longest without rest while killing lots of typical foes, or something else entirely?

In terms of sheer versatility and usefulness to the party as a whole, I've got to give the nod to the Paladin/Sorcerer. That guy transformed the (ranged-heavy) party in a way I never expected and quickly showed himself to be an MVP. (Having seen it in action, I'd recommend starting as Paladin, taking Sorcerer 1 as early as possible for Shield and Expeditious Retreat, and then deferring further sorc levels until after Paladin 6. Lucky was a good choice for level 1 feat.) He can physical control with grappling, magical control with Compelled Duel and/or Wrathful Smite, can keep himself safe with Shield of Faith/Shield/etc., can heal, avoid foes with Expeditious Retreat or his steed (which also benefits from Expeditious Retreat), enchant his own weapons when going up against weapon-resistant foes, etc., etc. In situations where the party would formerly have been inclined to take a sneaky approach and look for ambushes, he was able to tank everything while the party hid behind him to do the killing--and yet in small group situations with only one other PC, he was able to do his share of the killing as well. Just a terrifically well-rounded class combination, and a good character to boot. (Mending is a good spell for doing good deeds for strangers.)

[MeeposFire]

HOnestly if you are using a definition of "gish" that just means casts spels and uses weapons then paladin alone is great or you can add sorc if you want some more slots and spell variety but both work great.

Granted in my definition a singe class paladin would not be a gish merely because it does not cast wizard like (in 3e and 4e terms "arcane" type spells work for me in a broad sense) but that is because I take the term closer to its original roots (though not completely since I do not require it to be fighter/wizard or be a githyanki). However that would be an example of pedantry as singe class paladin does what YOU want out of a gish very well though sometimes smiting is so tempting that you do not get to use your spells at all rather using the slots to smite almost all the time but it is effective.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that if you use this realy broad definition then the single class or multiclass cleric becomes viable as well. Use booming blade on a weapon based cleric and your weapon use wi be fair and you will have some great casting too. I like tempest for this because it has some nice destructive spells and feels great with booming blade (though remember you have to use something to pick that up either muticlassing or using a feat). Cleric would push you into casting more and sword swinging less compared to the paladin but you would have some mighty spells to use.

[JAL_1138]

Another vote for Paladin, here. Take an Ancients Pally to level 7, then either stay pure Pally (never a bad choice—Paladins are good at every level), or multiclass into lore bard, dragon sorcerer, or some variety of warlock (feylock fits thematically more than the others, but I don't know enough about the warlock class to give optimization advice on them beyond the usual 2-level dip). That may seem like a long wait to multiclass, but Paladins are already good gishes through those levels, so it still works out fine. You can't go wrong with Paladins.

[SaA]

Ive always thought College of Swords Bard looks neat and its about to be offical aswell

[Easy_Lee]

You have to define best. If I can guess your meaning, then the best low-mid gish is about to be Hexblade. CHA to attacks and medium armor mean you can max your attack and spell DC by 8, leaving you room for feats later. Devil's Sight makes up for a lack of darkvision, meaning you're free to play a variant human and take a feat (warcaster). It also lets you darkness yourself for persistent advantage / disadvantage. Warlocks get a nice combination of always-on features and spellcasting. And blade pact warlocks are useful at any range.

[bid]

I can think of the bladesinger, a fighter 1/bladelock, a paladin 2/sorcerer, a fighter 1 or 2/abjuror, a paladin 2/bard, and a valor bard.

What best? pros/cons of each?
You didn't list rogue/bladelock or rogue/sorcerer. They are Dex gish like bladesinger and valor bards.

Your fighter/paladin dips are mostly Str gish. And most don't get an extra attack too.

Would you put arcane cleric out of the gish definition?

[Athoren]

My favorite gish is dwarf sorcerer.

[GorogIrongut]

Hill Dwarf Stone Sorceror

Hill Dwarf Forge Cleric

I say both as a single class, which can function. But you could also include slight dips. Deep Stalker Ranger is a good dip. So is Paladin or Rogue depending on which of the two you pick. You could even take the Stone Sorceror and dip Druid. That said, their main thrust should be what they are, stone sorceror or forge cleric.

[Citan]

"Best" in terms of being able to defeat the toughest foes solo, to defeat the toughest foes with a group, to end fights with typical foes quickly (high damage rate), to go the longest without rest while killing lots of typical foes, or something else entirely?

In terms of sheer versatility and usefulness to the party as a whole, I've got to give the nod to the Paladin/Sorcerer. That guy transformed the (ranged-heavy) party in a way I never expected and quickly showed himself to be an MVP. (Having seen it in action, I'd recommend starting as Paladin, taking Sorcerer 1 as early as possible for Shield and Expeditious Retreat, and then deferring further sorc levels until after Paladin 6. Lucky was a good choice for level 1 feat.) He can physical control with grappling, magical control with Compelled Duel and/or Wrathful Smite, can keep himself safe with Shield of Faith/Shield/etc., can heal, avoid foes with Expeditious Retreat or his steed (which also benefits from Expeditious Retreat), enchant his own weapons when going up against weapon-resistant foes, etc., etc. In situations where the party would formerly have been inclined to take a sneaky approach and look for ambushes, he was able to tank everything while the party hid behind him to do the killing--and yet in small group situations with only one other PC, he was able to do his share of the killing as well. Just a terrifically well-rounded class combination, and a good character to boot. (Mending is a good spell for doing good deeds for strangers.)
This. Also, Bladesinger with a single starting level in Fighter for better starting HP, TWF style, CON saving throws.
And Monk with a bit of Druid and Cleric mixed in.

[Klorox]

This. Also, Bladesinger with a single starting level in Fighter for better starting HP, TWF style, CON saving throws.
And Monk with a bit of Druid and Cleric mixed in.

I always wondered how bladesingers would work with dual wielding.

It’s a class that needs to pump DEX and INT as high as possible, which doesn’t leave you a lot of wiggle room for warcaster, which would be needed if you use two weapons.

[Asmotherion]

Depends on how low Level you mean. I like the Warlock-Paladin and Sorcerer-Paladin a lot (or a combination of the 3), but they come online at level 3 and start being very good after level 5-6 when they get Booming Blade's Enhanced Version and their first Feat. They are still viable as characters before that, just not really good Gish builds during levels 1-4.

Arcane Trickster Rogues are also very good at their Job, and probably the best non-rng combat-oriented Rogue archetype from the PHB. By all acounts, they quallyfy as a Gish.

I also find the Swachbuckler making an excelent Gish when he dips Warlock and/or Sorcerer, as he is expected to have a High Charisma, and when I built one, I multiclassed into a Swashbuckler with that in mind. Booming Blade+Hex+Sneak Attack combo very well. Then a 2 level dip into Paladin for Divine Booming Sneak Attacks on Hexed Targets. This can be Archived by level 7, but with only like 2 smites per short rest. The rest of the At-will damage is still good though, as it amounts to 2d8+3d6+Cha Mod (to a hexed target, minus 1d6 for a non hexed target) by level 5, and if the target moves it takes an extra 2d8 damage.

There are many other Gish builds out there, and I haven't play-tested them all. I can only speak for those I have seen and/or played.

[nickl_2000]

Not your typical Gish, but if you are only playing Low to Mid levels, what about a Tortle Druid?

You can take Shilleigh, then your wisdom is both your casting and attacking stat at 16 and you get 19 AC with buying a shield. Sure it will not be as good in melee after level 5 when other PCs start getting 2 attacks, but by then your magic is amazing.

[RakiReborn]

One of my current characters is a swashbuckler/bladesinger and it's a lot of fun. It works pretty much every level too, and gains good stuff every level. You start with either one (preference, I started with rogue to have a low Wis save, as I like to have a clear weak point) and up what you like.
Rogue1/bladesinger2 will give you 19AC with mage armor and bladesinging, or 18 with light armor. For extra defenses you have the shield and absorb elements spells. Main damage cantrip is Booming Blade, to which you add your sneak attack damage.
Rogue 2 gives cunning action for getting out of reach, which is perfect in combination with Booming Blade.
Bladesinger3 gives more slots for defensive spells, including some 2nd lvl for Misty step/mirror image. If you take this at lvl5, you don't miss the sneak attack being delayed a bit, since you get more BB damage (now one attack with rapier is 2d8+3+1d6).
Rogue 3 gives more sneak attack damage and swashbuckler gives you freedom to move without using cunning action, so you can use that for dashing for more movement speed.
Rogue4 gives an Asi or feat, I recommend sentinel for getting a reaction attack with sneak attack damage if an enemy moves to you.
Rogue5 gives extra sneak attack damage and halving damage as reaction when needed. 6 gives another Asi, 7 gives evasion for dex saves. This makes you strong in defenses against most offensives.
Wiz up gives more spell slots and higher spell slots for your defensive spells. Nice 3rd lvl spells are blink, haste, or some offensive spells that stay useful at higher character levels like fireball or hypnotic pattern.

My current build is 3/3, and I don't miss the bonus to attack rolls from missed dex increases. Advantage or other increases aren't hard to come by with a familiar, a cleric that casts bless, etc. The first Asi I will put in dex is at rogue7/wiz4, and after that probably in rogue8/wiz5. Maybe I'll even take the lucky feat fist.

[Rogerdodger557]

Honestly, pure eldritch knight. It provides access to a lot of useful spells(Shield, Absorb Elements, etc.), as well as providing some long range option in the form of cantrip. You also get the extra ASIs as a fighter, and can take feats to compliment your build, or pump up your necessary stats(STR/DEX, CON, INT). You also get stuff like war magic and eldritch strike, which are great abilities.

[Throne12]

My favorite right now is a Arcane cleric.

[Aett_Thorn]

My favorite right now is a Arcane cleric.

I was just going to suggest the same thing. Arcana Clerics can make fairly effective gishes as well. By taking some of the SCAG cantrips (or the UA starter spell cantrips), you can make a fairly effective gish out of a cleric, while still maintaining great out-of-combat utility thanks to the arcana cleric domain spells.

You can either go Str-based (with a 14 Dex hopefully), and get up to 15+ 2 (dex) + 2 (shield) = 19 AC, or you can go Dex and get the same, with 12 + 5 (dex) + 2 (shield) = 19 AC. Add Shield of Faith to either of these for a total of 21 AC, and you can hang out in melee with some of the best of them. Alternatively, you could go a level of Monk and go unarmored for similar AC levels with decent stats. Or, going Fighter 1/Arcana cleric X allows you to go more fully strength-based and get some heavy armor. Basically, you have a ton of options on ways in which you can go.

Granted, you don't get proficiency with martial weapons, so you're stuck with simple weapons unless you're an Elf or Dwarf, but that's fine. You'll mainly be casting a SCAG cantrip anyways, where the bulk of your damage will come from later on (especially past level 8, where you get to add you Wis modifier to the damage of your cleric cantrips).


Basically, tons of good options just within the class, and multi-classing allows you to add a bunch of different features on top of it depending on how you want to go. A Dex-based Arcana cleric could go monk, rogue, or ranger, a str-based cleric could go fighter or paladin, etc.

[Zene]

Cleric.

Each gish build has things it’s best at, but if your criteria are just ‘good in melee’ and ‘good at spellcasting’ then straight cleric is the absolute winner, hands-down.

[sithlordnergal]

Put down another vote for Paladin/Sorcerer. Paladin is a strong class on it's own, and only gets better with time, and adding in Sorcerer gets rid of it's only weaknesses. You suddenly have a decent ranged attack with cantrips, you can get one of the highest AC's without any magical items through plate armor, a shield, defense fighting style, Haste/Shield of Faith, and Shield, you get so many more smites, and you get Quicken Spell. Toss in a Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade, and now you smite three times in a round.

[Klorox]

Put down another vote for Paladin/Sorcerer. Paladin is a strong class on it's own, and only gets better with time, and adding in Sorcerer gets rid of it's only weaknesses. You suddenly have a decent ranged attack with cantrips, you can get one of the highest AC's without any magical items through plate armor, a shield, defense fighting style, Haste/Shield of Faith, and Shield, you get so many more smites, and you get Quicken Spell. Toss in a Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade, and now you smite three times in a round.

Please detail how to smite three times in a round.

[mephnick]

Please detail how to smite three times in a round.

Quicken BB, two attacks with attack action.

[8wGremlin]

Quicken BB, two attacks with attack action.

So 5th level Paladin, 3rd level sorcerer

[Citan]

I always wondered how bladesingers would work with dual wielding.

It’s a class that needs to pump DEX and INT as high as possible, which doesn’t leave you a lot of wiggle room for warcaster, which would be needed if you use two weapons.
Well, you are half-right and half-wrong. ;)
Half-Right in the fact that Warcaster certainly helps much in easing micro-management (as well as maintaining concentration, which is indeed even more important on a "melee" Wizard than on others). And in the fact that a Bladesinger has a bit more than other Wizards an incentive to max both DEX and INT (although cases could be made honestly for "DEX-only" or even "INT-only" -ok, harder this one- Bladesingers).

Half-wrong in that...
First, TWF Bladesingers would probably use spellcasting much less often than others Wizards, BB Bladesingers included. Let's not forget that you take this archetype supposedly to rely more on weapon attacks and less on precious slots.

In that regard, the only spells to be used on a regular basis would probably be...
- Expeditious Retreat at lower level.
- Mirror Image or starting Blur at level 3.
- Haste at level 5.
- Greater Invisibility at level 7.

The only other spell you can expect Bladesinger to use the most would probably be Shield because of tendency to get into melee. Except that any decent Bladesinger will have 16 starting DEX and INT, so 19 AC while bladesinging, so unless you are really careless and aggro more than one enemy at once you should be able to avoid too much threat (which is helped by the extra 10 feet too).

Second, let's not forget either that you have one free interaction per turn, AND that throwing a weapon while dual wielding triggers the bonus action attack.
So you can perfectly start your turn by drawing an off-hand weapon, Attack with your main weapon, then throw your off-hand so you always have a hand free should you need to cast immediately on another turn (like for Shield). Or just drop it at your feet if you don't like the idea of moving away from an enemy (or too cumbersome to your taste to plan ahead and throw a dagger as your first attack instead while you are still closing towards an enemy).

Of course, if you wanted to make only ranged thrown attacks while dual-wielding then item interaction economy will cause problem, but I don't see this happening very often. :)
The "throw only on one attack" is sustainable even with Extra Attack, and even with Haste attack. ^^

[Klorox]

So 5th level Paladin, 3rd level sorcerer

Dang, level 8. Level 9 for me, as I’d race to level 6 as a paladin.

[bid]

So 5th level Paladin, 3rd level sorcerer
No no no no no, you've been misled!

Sorcerer 3 is enough to get 3 attacks: twin BB + quicken BB requires 3 SP.
Add paladin 2 and you smite 3 times, once per day.

[Kane0]

I'm partial to starting with a level or two in fighter then the rest in warlock.

All short rest resources, all the proficiencies you need, invocations for variety and some nice goodies to round out the package. Having only two spell slots at a time can be limiting but it encourages you to actually get in there and swing your sword instead of hanging back and casting unless you want to rely on Eldritch Blast which is totally viable as well. Makes for an effective switch hitter.

[rbstr]

I too like fighter 1 + warlock 5. Eventually fighter 3 for an archetype.

[XmonkTad]

Well I'm a bit late to the party, but I find having Gensai (fire) to be a solid base for a gish. This gives you the produce flame cantrip based off of your Con. IIRC, this is the only way to have con be your casting stat. Alone, that's not enough to really be a gish, but it lets you build the rest of your (often limited) spells in a defensive manner, because you have an offensive spell that doesn't make you MAD.