Dumping CON as a Paladin?

[Boggartbae]

So I was thinking about Paladins today, and I realized something.

Every 2 points of constitution gives you +1 to fortitude saves, and +1 hp/hit die

BUT! every 2 points of Charisma also gives you +1 to fortitude saves (thanks to divine grace), and +1 use of lay on hands per day

Each use of lay on hands translates into 1d6 hp/2 hit dice, or about 1.75 hp per hit die.

Therefore, If you're a Paladin, CHA gives you almost double the effective HP that CON does, in addition to everything else CHA does for the class.

So if you were doing point buy in Pathfinder, would you feel comfortable leaving CON as a 10 and putting those points you saved into more CHA? You could rely on your D10 hit die and favoured class bonus to not get bursted, and heal yourself as a swift action in combat whenever you needed to.

Thoughts? Is this too risky?

[zlefin]

I might feel fine leaving con at 10.
I woudlnt' call it a dump stat though, it's still a secondary stat for a paladin.
the question is more the cost comparison of getting 12 con, vs spending those 2 point buy points to get 1 point of cha (or even less).
and/or it's about what mix of str/dex/con you get.

[Boggartbae]

True, point buy does get diminishing returns as you pump a stat. I will say though that I would rather pay 3 points to pump my charisma from 16 to 17, than pay 3 points to go from 12 to 14 in constitution.

I just thought it was weird that paladins even get to make that choice, since normally CON is the king of stats, especially for a melee character

[zlefin]

con isn't generally called the king of stats imho. or if it is, it's not in the sense that it's the one you should max most.
there's very few classes for which con is their primary stat.
it's just that for nearly all classes/games it's a good secondary stat (maybe tertiary in a few cases, but mostly secondary).
and it's not a true dump stat outside of a few atypical social focused games.

[ATHATH]

and it's not a true dump stat outside of a few atypical social focused games.
Or for undead/people who are planning to become undead.

[Boggartbae]

Or for undead/people who are planning to become undead.

This is the #1 reason to dump CON, IMO, especially since pathfinder made applying templates with create undead so easy. Undead Antipaladins get to double dip CHA for HP and self heals. so tanky (there damage suffers because smite good is useless, but channel smite, conductive weapons, and greyflame weapons help)

[Geddy2112]

I rarely see a need for a paladin to have more than 14 con. For a ranged build, a paladin can EASILY have 10 con, and you can almost go below 10. Mounted lancer or reach weapon builds don't need it as much either. 12-14 is good if you are going to be a 2 handed power attacker, but most other paladins can get away with 10-12. If you are going to be a party medic, keep in mind you need to stay alive to heal others, and you need your Lay on Hands for them as well.

[emeraldstreak]

If you want safe, AC is miles better anyway.

[Mithril Leaf]

Remember in Pathfinder you can retrain all your hit dice rolls, so functionally you get maximized hit dice.

[Boggartbae]

If you want safe, AC is miles better anyway.

Well each point of AC make you 5% harder to hit, so unless you're getting over 20 effective hp per level, then Constitution will increase your effective HP more. Granted, AC also protects you from other nasty things that come with getting hit, so it's not as cut and dry as this.


Remember in Pathfinder you can retrain all your hit dice rolls, so functionally you get maximized hit dice.

Wait what? I knew you could reanimate your party members as juju zombies with max HP if you got the Spirit Vessel revelation from the Juju Oracle mystery, but I didn't know you could do that with any class o_O (I don't condone cheesing out max HP, I just want to know how to do it)

[Vhaidara]

Wait what? I knew you could reanimate your party members as juju zombies with max HP if you got the Spirit Vessel revelation from the Juju Oracle mystery, but I didn't know you could do that with any class o_O (I don't condone cheesing out max HP, I just want to know how to do it)

Basic retraining rules for Hit Points
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

[grarrrg]

Basic retraining rules for Hit Points
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

Do note that it is 3 days and Level*30GP _per hit point_. So not a reliable option in many cases.
"They're going to explode the world in 2 weeks!!!"
"Perfect, I'll be able to max out another 4 HP before then!"

[Boggartbae]

Do note that it is 3 days and Level*30GP _per hit point_. So not a reliable option in many cases.
"They're going to explode the world in 2 weeks!!!"
"Perfect, I'll be able to max out another 4 HP before then!"

Oh. Well even so I don't think I, or anyone else I play with, would ever play with this rule. There are more fun ways of becoming insanely tanky, anyway, Like Guarded Life+Vampiric Weapon+Ferocity :smallcool:

[dude123nice]

Do it! Just do it! Some people dream of making a front liner without a CON bonus, while you're going to wake up and work hard at it! You're going to loose a lot of characters trying to find the one that survives... you should get to the point where anyone else would quit and you’re not going to stop there. NO! What are you waiting for?! DO IT!

[Mithril Leaf]

Do note that it is 3 days and Level*30GP _per hit point_. So not a reliable option in many cases.
"They're going to explode the world in 2 weeks!!!"
"Perfect, I'll be able to max out another 4 HP before then!"

Sure, but the vast majority of games don't alllllll take place in immediate and constant life or death struggles. You often have at least a few weeks between levels, or a few months every couple of levels. It is in no way less valid than item crafting.

[emeraldstreak]

Well each point of AC make you 5% harder to hit, so unless you're getting over 20 effective hp per level, then Constitution will increase your effective HP more. Granted, AC also protects you from other nasty things that come with getting hit, so it's not as cut and dry as this.


A point of AC makes you more than 5% more resilient.

At a baseline of being hit half the time, and x2 crit confirmed half the time when 20 is rolled, 1 AC reduces damage by 10%, meaning it increases effective health by 11.11%

But in reality, AC can skew in PC's favor much better than 50% baseline in 3.5E, meaning an extra point of AC can cut into, say, a 16-20 range of monster hitting you, resulting in 25% boost.

[Strigon]

Interesting theory. I had an objection, but it was idiotic.

[Psyren]

Sure, but the vast majority of games don't alllllll take place in immediate and constant life or death struggles. You often have at least a few weeks between levels, or a few months every couple of levels. It is in no way less valid than item crafting.

Thing is, unless you've been rolling pretty crappily for HP every level, there are much more pressing uses for downtime than the HP retrain. While it's true that most games will have some breathing room, it's pretty rare that you'll be in one so lax that you'll have time to do every downtime activity there is either. Crafting, research, and other forms of retraining are much more likely to be ahead of hit points in line.

[Mithril Leaf]

Thing is, unless you've been rolling pretty crappily for HP every level, there are much more pressing uses for downtime than the HP retrain. While it's true that most games will have some breathing room, it's pretty rare that you'll be in one so lax that you'll have time to do every downtime activity there is either. Crafting, research, and other forms of retraining are much more likely to be ahead of hit points in line.

For a Paladin though? What else are the majority of martials honestly going to prefer doing in downtime instead of straight up netting more hit points?

[Psyren]

For a Paladin though? What else are the majority of martials honestly going to prefer doing in downtime instead of straight up netting more hit points?

I wouldn't know what the "majority of martials" do, having never conducted a survey on the matter. All I can speak for are my own characters, and what I've found is that my downtime has better uses. For example, getting together with the casters (or whoever else has crafting feats) to make gear and consumables tailored to me.

[Zanos]

You're mostly right OP, but keep in mind that HP in your lay on hands pool isn't available unless you actually use it. If you take one big hit or you're stunned or otherwise aren't able to use lay on hands because of crowd control, you might die in a situation where having some con will save you.


Do note that it is 3 days and Level*30GP _per hit point_. So not a reliable option in many cases.
"They're going to explode the world in 2 weeks!!!"
"Perfect, I'll be able to max out another 4 HP before then!"
I mean, it takes over a month to upgrade a weapon from +3 effective bonus to +5 effective bonus, so unless +1 [specific weapon type] made of [specific material] of [series of very specific enchantments] just grow on trees and you pay full price for them instead of upgrade costs, you should have some time. Or your DM is just making a time an issue very selectively.

Unless you're under constant time pressure (which is a bad way to run a game, IMO), you should be fine. If the DM wants to not allow HP retraining, they should just say so.


I wouldn't know what the "majority of martials" do, having never conducted a survey on the matter. All I can speak for are my own characters, and what I've found is that my downtime has better uses. For example, getting together with the casters (or whoever else has crafting feats) to make gear and consumables tailored to me.
Takes time to initiate, but is really just waiting after that.

[Psyren]

Unless you're under constant time pressure (which is a bad way to run a game, IMO), you should be fine. If the DM wants to not allow HP retraining, they should just say so.

A DM who wants to add a time element to the adventure is no reason to throw the toys out of the pram. For some, the HP retrain may be worth the opportunity cost of other things that could be done with that time. That is perfectly okay. I am only speaking for myself when I say I don't think of it that way, and a DM who does not give you all the time in the world to do both is not a fickle tyrant.



Takes time to initiate, but is really just waiting after that.

Do you mean retraining? Because that keeps you busy for 8 hours of each day that you spend doing the activity and is mutually exclusive with both travelling and crafting.

[Zanos]

A DM who wants to add a time element to the adventure is no reason to throw the toys out of the pram. For some, the HP retrain may be worth the opportunity cost of other things that could be done with that time. That is perfectly okay. I am only speaking for myself when I say I don't think of it that way, and a DM who does not give you all the time in the world to do both is not a fickle tyrant.
Between adventures, PCs should generally have plenty of time.

In other cases, I was suggesting that the DM should be consistent about when they want to apply time crunch. If Joe Fighter gets his [very specific magic weapon] with no time concerns but you want to retrain HP and suddenly time is an issue, there's a problem. And yes, I've seen this behavior before. More commonly it's with wizards where I want to take a week off to learn some spells, but everyone else is ready to go because apparently magic items upgrade instantaneously.


Do you mean retraining? Because that keeps you busy for 8 hours of each day that you spend doing the activity and is mutually exclusive with both travelling and crafting.
No, I meant coordinating with casters to get something crafted should be a one time thing until the item is finished. Might take a few hours? If you yourself are contributing spells, then I suppose it would take up time.

I guess in theory you could spend 8 hours crafting, 8 hours retraining, and 8 hours sleeping. I don't think a martial should need to spend 8 hours a day for an item to be crafted, though.

[Psyren]

In other cases, I was suggesting that the DM should be consistent about when they want to apply time crunch. If Joe Fighter gets his [very specific magic weapon] with no time concerns but you want to retrain HP and suddenly time is an issue, there's a problem. And yes, I've seen this behavior before.

If other PCs have time to craft then you should absolutely have enough time for this. My stance was merely that I would probably be crafting too - there are a staggeringly large number of useful items out there, many of which will save me more lost hit points in the long run.



No, I meant coordinating with casters to get something crafted should be a one time thing until the item is finished. Might take a few hours? If you yourself are contributing spells, then I suppose it would take up time.

I guess in theory you could spend 8 hours crafting, 8 hours retraining, and 8 hours sleeping. I don't think a martial should need to spend 8 hours a day for an item to be crafted, though.

You specifically cannot do this. It's one or the other.

[Zanos]

If other PCs have time to craft then you should absolutely have enough time for this. My stance was merely that I would probably be crafting too - there are a staggeringly large number of useful items out there, many of which will save me more lost hit points in the long run.
I'm still not clear on how a mundane would be spending a significant amount of time doing useful crafting.

[Psyren]

I'm still not clear on how a mundane would be spending a significant amount of time doing useful crafting.

Paladins aren't mundane, for starters. And they have many spells that crafting PCs from other classes would be incapable of accessing otherwise, or at lower levels. Finally, even if you do mean truly non-magical classes like Fighters and Gunslingers, in PF they can craft Wondrous Items and Magic Arms/Armor just fine.

[Zanos]

Paladins aren't mundane, for starters. And they have many spells that crafting PCs from other classes would be incapable of accessing otherwise, or at lower levels.
Eh, dedicated casters can bypass spell requirements with +5 to DC in pathfinder. Non-int classes have a pretty hard time focusing on crafting, to be honest.


Finally, even if you do mean truly non-magical classes like Fighters and Gunslingers, in PF they can craft Wondrous Items and Magic Arms/Armor just fine.
Oh, I forgot about that feat. Fair enough.

[Psyren]

Eh, dedicated casters can bypass spell requirements with +5 to DC in pathfinder. Non-int classes have a pretty hard time focusing on crafting, to be honest.

They can, but not for spell trigger/completion items or potions. There are several Paladin spells that would be useful as wands or scrolls.

[Jay R]

You're mostly right OP, but keep in mind that HP in your lay on hands pool isn't available unless you actually use it. If you take one big hit or you're stunned or otherwise aren't able to use lay on hands because of crowd control, you might die in a situation where having some con will save you.

Exactly. Healing ability doesn't automatically replace hit points, just as it's possible to die while carrying several potions of healing.

You can try it, and it sounds interesting, but be prepared to manage the increased risk.

The safest place to store your hit points is in your body, not in your hands or a bottle.

[Boggartbae]

Exactly. Healing ability doesn't automatically replace hit points, just as it's possible to die while carrying several potions of healing.

You can try it, and it sounds interesting, but be prepared to manage the increased risk.

The safest place to store your hit points is in your body, not in your hands or a bottle.

I'm generally in agreement, but you have to admit that the CHA vs CON math is a little humorous for a Paladin, since it's so backwards to every other martial character. If they both gave you the same effective HP, it wouldn't be worth talking about, but CHA is almost twice as effective, and lay on hands can be buffed in other ways.

I don't think I could every truly dump CON as any class, because of the ability point buy system penalizes you for spiking a single stat, and so do magic item costs, but maybe I'll try it someday, and just never have a swift action free :small tongue:

Of course we'll probably end up fighting mummies who exclusively use Power Words, but C'est La Vie

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that Con has other uses too. The negative HP at which you die, how long you can hold your breath, your ability to force march etc. They can be pretty niche, but I wouldn't dump it on a martial class.

In any event, you shouldn't need more than 14 anyway, and unless your point buy is really meager, that should be readily affordable.

[Jay R]

I'm generally in agreement, but you have to admit that the CHA vs CON math is a little humorous for a Paladin, since it's so backwards to every other martial character.

Oh, absolutely. It's not the first or the last ridiculous result from D&D rules.

I just repeat my previous warning: You can try it, and it sounds interesting, but be prepared to manage the increased risk.