Non-intuitive rules. What do you do?

[Hrugner]

There are a few 5e rules that, for the sake of simplicity, occasionally produce results that don't make sense in the world as its presented. My specific example involves casting sleep on a swarm. While it makes sense that tons of these tiny creatures should suddenly fall asleep, the rules dictate that the creatures are immune to sleep. What do you do with these things as a DM. Do you rule in the way that makes the most sense to you, or the way that is closest to the rules? Do you let a player change their action if their intuition doesn't match play mechanics?

[JackPhoenix]

There are a few 5e rules that, for the sake of simplicity, occasionally produce results that don't make sense in the world as its presented. My specific example involves casting sleep on a swarm. While it makes sense that tons of these tiny creatures should suddenly fall asleep, the rules dictate that the creatures are immune to sleep. What do you do with these things as a DM. Do you rule in the way that makes the most sense to you, or the way that is closest to the rules? Do you let a player change their action if their intuition doesn't match play mechanics?

Where did you get that? Swarms aren't immune to Sleep. Or rather, to unconscious condition Sleep spell causes.

[lunaticfringe]

Where did you get that? Swarms aren't immune to Sleep. Or rather, to unconscious condition Sleep spell causes.

Things immune to charmed can't be Sleeped I'd imagine. You can just drop that from the spell.

[mgshamster]

From the Sleep spell description:

"Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren’t affected by this spell."

Swarms are immune to being charmed.

Now, if you had some other means of sleep, such as a poison sleep gas, it would work.

[JackPhoenix]

Things immune to charmed can't be Sleeped I'd imagine. You can just drop that from the spell.

Ah, right, should've checked spell description instead of going only from the condition it causes. Still, it makes sense. Every sleeping creature takes at least 1 HP worth of Sleep's "damage", and making 5d8 insects or rats asleep doesn't have much of an effect on a swarm of hundreds or thousands, just as charming single individual rat wouldn't.

[Pex]

You can cast Spell + Bonus Action Cantrip or Bonus Action Spell + Cantrip or Cantrip + Bonus Action Cantrip but not Cantrip + Bonus Action Spell. I don't think the players I play with know 5E makes that disctinction. The one time I brought it up the DM thought it stupid and disregarded it. I also think it's stupid. The order should be irrelevant and does not break the game. I admit sometimes even I forget the rule, not on purpose, because I'm excited for my turn coming up to cast Misty Step to get away from the mooks swarming me and then cast twin Ray of Frost against the BBEG of the fight and his lieutenant. I forget about the rule for a long while until I get reminded again on these Forums.

[lunaticfringe]

Yeah I think it makes sense too. I guess my point is:

If you're a DM stop thinking like a player, you have no restrictions. You can play around with anything you don't like. Don't be stubborn & tyrannical. Try something out in game If it doesn't work admit it and go back to the drawing board with more empirical data. Work with your with players, ask for feedback.

If you're a player, sucks to be you I guess. =P

[Ixidor92]

Ultimately it depends on your table, but what if a rule doesn't make a lot of sense to you, and players agree, then go ahead and house-rule in something. The only thing you need to make sure of is that this rule is written down somewhere, and that you use it CONSISTENTLY. You don't want a situation where you swap between the house-rule and official-rule based on whatever the player thinks is better for the current situation.

[Aett_Thorn]

For rules like this, if you know them and the player doesn't, give the character a way to discover it before they waste the spell, but don't necessarily make it obvious. For instance, in this case, you could give the character a chance to make an Arcana check, and if it passes, the character remembers that time that his mentor tried to use the sleep spell on a swarm of bugs, and instead got attacked, which reminds him that these kinds of spells don't work well against swarms of things. I mean, after the first failure for this kind of thing, they'll probably figure it out, but at least giving them a chance makes it so that the players don't feel cheated by you.

Or, you could just ignore the rule, and come up with some sort of discretionary ruling, such that a portion of the swarm is put to sleep, but not all.

[pwykersotz]

Huh...so I guess the Pied Piper isn't a thing. I never noticed that. But then, I've never yet used a swarm.

[mgshamster]

Huh...so I guess the Pied Piper isn't a thing. I never noticed that. But then, I've never yet used a swarm.

It's a magic item. :)

[JackPhoenix]

You can cast Spell + Bonus Action Cantrip or Bonus Action Spell + Cantrip or Cantrip + Bonus Action Cantrip but not Cantrip + Bonus Action Spell. I don't think the players I play with know 5E makes that disctinction. The one time I brought it up the DM thought it stupid and disregarded it. I also think it's stupid. The order should be irrelevant and does not break the game. I admit sometimes even I forget the rule, not on purpose, because I'm excited for my turn coming up to cast Misty Step to get away from the mooks swarming me and then cast twin Ray of Frost against the BBEG of the fight and his lieutenant. I forget about the rule for a long while until I get reminded again on these Forums.

You can't, and the players don't know because 5e doesn't make that distinction. Order *is* irrelevant, when you cast BA spell, all you can cast in the same turn is cantrip, it doesn't matter if you cast it before or after. If you cast leveled spell in your turn, you can't cast BA spell in the same turn.


You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

[Avonar]

You can cast Spell + Bonus Action Cantrip or Bonus Action Spell + Cantrip or Cantrip + Bonus Action Cantrip but not Cantrip + Bonus Action Spell. I don't think the players I play with know 5E makes that disctinction. The one time I brought it up the DM thought it stupid and disregarded it. I also think it's stupid. The order should be irrelevant and does not break the game. I admit sometimes even I forget the rule, not on purpose, because I'm excited for my turn coming up to cast Misty Step to get away from the mooks swarming me and then cast twin Ray of Frost against the BBEG of the fight and his lieutenant. I forget about the rule for a long while until I get reminded again on these Forums.

You actually have that not really correct. From the PHB:

"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

If you cast any spell as a bonus action, cantrip or not, you can only cast a cantrip spell as an action in the same turn. If you cast a bonus action cantrip you can still only cast another cantrip as an action. It doesn't specifically state order, though I get that it could be implied that it is a particular order but I don't see that making sense. If you cast a cantrip, you can then cast any spell as a bonus action. If you cast a bonus action spell, you can then cast a cantrip as an action only.

[Pex]

You can tell how confusing this is for me when I screw up my own example. Given what I wrote Misty Step then Ray of Frost is legal. The cool thing I should have written about is casting Shocking Grasp so I can move away safely, but if I miss cast Misty Step as a fail-safe. Some people have said this would be illegal. If you cast a Cantrip as your action, your bonus action spell can only be a Cantrip as well. They are saying order matters. Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell and then a Cantrip is fine. Cantrip then Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell is not fine. It's not mentioned often on these Forums, but whenever it is no one makes the correction if that's not true.

[Easy_Lee]

A DM need not follow the rules as written. If you and your players don't like a rule, you should change it.

[Avonar]

Some people have said this would be illegal. If you cast a Cantrip as your action, your bonus action spell can only be a Cantrip as well. They are saying order matters. Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell and then a Cantrip is fine. Cantrip then Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell is not fine. It's not mentioned often on these Forums, but whenever it is no one makes the correction if that's not true.

That's...strange. I have never seen any mention of a rule like that. Curious. The way I see it, whatever the order it's the same spells in the same period of time.

[Easy_Lee]

That's...strange. I have never seen any mention of a rule like that. Curious. The way I see it, whatever the order it's the same spells in the same period of time.

I see it this way as well.

[scalyfreak]

If you cast a Cantrip as your action, your bonus action spell can only be a Cantrip as well. They are saying order matters. Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell and then a Cantrip is fine. Cantrip then Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell is not fine. It's not mentioned often on these Forums, but whenever it is no one makes the correction if that's not true.

That doesn't make sense. Where is that rule written?

About to start playing my first 5e caster (okay, half-caster), and would like to know little details like these before it comes up in-game.

[Pope Scarface]

Some people have said this would be illegal. If you cast a Cantrip as your action, your bonus action spell can only be a Cantrip as well.

It doesn't say that in the rules for casting a spell as a bonus action, or anything that can reasonably be inferred to mean that.

[Christian]

You can tell how confusing this is for me when I screw up my own example.

I think people mainly talk themselves into confusion about it, or mix up their house rules with the PHB rule. It's not really all that complicated (although it is perhaps counterintuitive):




Bonus Action



Action
Cantrip
Non-cantrip


Cantrip
OK
OK


Non-cantrip
Nope
Nope



What throws people is that this table makes more intuitive sense to them:




Bonus Action



Action
Cantrip
Non-cantrip


Cantrip
OK
OK


Non-cantrip
OK
Nope



On the theory that the game balance they're shooting for can be achieved just by banning casting two non-cantrip spells in the same round. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but the RAW is what's in the first grid, which is actually simpler.

[RickAllison]

You can tell how confusing this is for me when I screw up my own example. Given what I wrote Misty Step then Ray of Frost is legal. The cool thing I should have written about is casting Shocking Grasp so I can move away safely, but if I miss cast Misty Step as a fail-safe. Some people have said this would be illegal. If you cast a Cantrip as your action, your bonus action spell can only be a Cantrip as well. They are saying order matters. Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell and then a Cantrip is fine. Cantrip then Misty Step/Healing Word/Quicken Spell is not fine. It's not mentioned often on these Forums, but whenever it is no one makes the correction if that's not true.

That is because the people who say order matters are wrong. Misty Step > cantrip is just as legal as cantrip > Misty Step. Now order does matter for the choice of whether to cast a leveled spell or a cantrip; as soon as you cast a bonus action spell, you lose your choice on whether to cast a leveled spell and vice versa. This really is only relevant for casters with Action Surge, as knowing whether you need to Misty Step after your Shocking Grasp seriously affects what action you can take with Action Surge.

The one that gets me with the rule is how it interacts with Shield. If you cast a bonus action spell, you suddenly are unable to cast Shield on your turn even though you could cast it immediately afterwards. Again, only relevant in the niche circumstance where you would be taking an attack on your turn (opportunity attacks, readied attacks) but it makes so little sense.

[Vaz]

That doesn't make sense. Where is that rule written?

About to start playing my first 5e caster (okay, half-caster), and would like to know little details like these before it comes up in-game.

Pg 202.

If you're happy enough with houserules, I've happily handed out Magic items which allow casters to (at the start, a certain number of times/day), or given them a homebrew feat (with a requisite of 8th level) that allows them to ignore that limitation for spells equal to or less than their Proficiency Bonus.

To clarify; the RAW means that order is irrelevant. If you cast a Bonus Action spell that's 1st level or higher, you can't cast another non-Cantrip spell during that same turn. If you cast a spell that's an action to cast and 1st level or higher, you still cannot cast a bonus action spell, because "you can't cast another spell during the same turn".

[Avonar]

The one that gets me with the rule is how it interacts with Shield. If you cast a bonus action spell, you suddenly are unable to cast Shield on your turn even though you could cast it immediately afterwards. Again, only relevant in the niche circumstance where you would be taking an attack on your turn (opportunity attacks, readied attacks) but it makes so little sense.

Not necessarily. Here comes the bad wording portion of 5e, it has been confirmed that you can cast reaction spells during your turn regardless. You could cast a spell as an action, then counterspell as a reaction in one turn.

No reason it should stop you casting Shield.

[Easy_Lee]

The much simpler version of the rule is thus: you may only cast one spell that isn't a cantrip per turn. This not only makes it easier to understand, but also prevents eldritch knights from casting more fireballs on a turn than anyone else can.

[Avonar]

The much simpler version of the rule is thus: you may only cast one spell that isn't a cantrip per turn. This not only makes it easier to understand, but also prevents eldritch knights from casting more fireballs on a turn than anyone else can.

But even that has exceptions, as mentioned you can cast a fireball AND a counterspell in one turn. I would simplify it like this:

"If you use both your action and bonus action to cast a spell, the action must be a cantrip."

[scalyfreak]

Pg 202.

Thanks!


The much simpler version of the rule is thus: you may only cast one spell that isn't a cantrip per turn. This not only makes it easier to understand, but also prevents eldritch knights from casting more fireballs on a turn than anyone else can.

That is much easier to understand! That's also exactly how I thought it works, so that of course also makes me happy.

So to summarize - solely for my own benefit - non-cantrip spells use an action, unless the spell itself specifically says it can be a bonus action. And if I use my bonus action for that spell, I can only do cantrips as my action, because I'm only allowed one non-cantrip per round. Got it.

[Easy_Lee]

Thanks!



That is much easier to understand! That's also exactly how I thought it works, so that of course also makes me happy.

So to summarize - solely for my own benefit - non-cantrip spells use an action, unless the spell itself specifically says it can be a bonus action. And if I use my bonus action for that spell, I can only do cantrips as my action, because I'm only allowed one non-cantrip per round. Got it.

That's not exactly how the rule works, but it is a simplified version. The less simple version is, if you use your bonus action to cast any spell, you can't use your action to cast anything that isn't a cantrip. And it's thus implied that, if you cast a non-cantrip with your action, you can't afterward use your bonus action to cast any spell.

It's strange. I prefer the simplified version, assuming people want to use the rule at all. But what I'd really prefer to do is ignore the rule.

[scalyfreak]

Oh great, now I'm all confused again. Thanks a lot. :smalltongue:

Though realistically, this particular character will always use either action of bonus action for something non-magical, so for me personally I have what I need.

[Varlon]

Not necessarily. Here comes the bad wording portion of 5e, it has been confirmed that you can cast reaction spells during your turn regardless. You could cast a spell as an action, then counterspell as a reaction in one turn.

No reason it should stop you casting Shield.

By RAW casting a bonus action spell would prevent you from casting Shield on the same turn, is what they said. I don't particularly like this interaction, so my houserule is that if you cast a bonus action spell, you can't cast a leveled spell with your action. This permits stuff like Misty Step into Feather Fall while still preventing stuff like Healing Word-Hold Person, or Fireball-quickened Fireball.

[Avonar]

By RAW casting a bonus action spell would prevent you from casting Shield on the same turn, is what they said. I don't particularly like this interaction, so my houserule is that if you cast a bonus action spell, you can't cast a leveled spell with your action. This permits stuff like Misty Step into Feather Fall while still preventing stuff like Healing Word-Hold Person, or Fireball-quickened Fireball.

Perhaps, but there have been a few Sage Advice where its been clarified that that bonus action rule doesn't impede on reaction spells, like Counterspell or Shield.

EDIT: Here you are:

Casting Time
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn?

There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn.

If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.

Can you also cast a reaction spell on your turn?

You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.

Reference: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf

[Tanarii]

Nothing in that SA says that you can still cast a reaction spell on your turn if you've cast a bonus action spell.

That's the greater limitation, and it applies if you try to counter spell on your turn after casting Misty Step. Or if you counterspell on your turn, you cannot also then Misty step.

Edit: I agree the way bonus action spells are ruled is non-intuitive. But they can't just set a general limit of "no more than one leveled spell in a turn" without also limiting Action Surge with no bonus action spells involved, or limiting a leveled spell + reaction spell on your turn with no bonus action spells involved.

OTOH they could have worded it as "no more than one leveled spell in any turn any one spell is a bonus action spell". That would allow Shillelagh or a Quickened Cantrip, plus Fireball or Shield. But not both Fireball and Shield.

[mgshamster]

Nothing in that SA says that you can still cast a reaction spell on your turn if you've cast a bonus action spell.

That's the greater limitation, and it applies if you try to counter spell on your turn after casting Misty Step. Or if you counterspell on your turn, you cannot also then Misty step.

Edit: I agree the way bonus action spells are ruled is non-intuitive. But they can't just set a general limit of "no more than one leveled spell in a turn" without also limiting Action Surge with no bonus action spells involved, or limiting a leveled spell + reaction spell on your turn with no bonus action spells involved.

OTOH they could have worded it as "no more than one leveled spell in any turn any one spell is a bonus action spell". That would allow Shillelagh or a Quickened Cantrip, plus Misty Step or Shield. But not both Misty Step and Shield.

Usually reactions aren't cast on your turn, just the same round. Although I'd agree with you if you're casting counterspell in order to counter someone else's counterspell. :)

[Tanarii]

Usually reactions aren't cast on your turn, just the same round. Although I'd agree with you if you're casting counterspell in order to counter someone else's counterspell. :)
Ya, that's the point under discussion. :smallwink:

[mgshamster]

Ya, that's the point under discussion. :smallwink:

That'll teach me not to skim.

[Avonar]

Nothing in that SA says that you can still cast a reaction spell on your turn if you've cast a bonus action spell.

That's the greater limitation, and it applies if you try to counter spell on your turn after casting Misty Step. Or if you counterspell on your turn, you cannot also then Misty step.

Edit: I agree the way bonus action spells are ruled is non-intuitive. But they can't just set a general limit of "no more than one leveled spell in a turn" without also limiting Action Surge with no bonus action spells involved, or limiting a leveled spell + reaction spell on your turn with no bonus action spells involved.

OTOH they could have worded it as "no more than one leveled spell in any turn any one spell is a bonus action spell". That would allow Shillelagh or a Quickened Cantrip, plus Fireball or Shield. But not both Fireball and Shield.

I fully agree that even the Sage Advice is poorly worded. Here's my RAI for the RAI :P

It sounds like the bonus action only affects the next action. Further actions are not affected and I believe nor are further reactions.

It is entirely not sure but that it was I think they are sayinh.

[Tanarii]

I can see why you would think that, given the statement on bonus actions says if you do it, you can only cast a cantrip on your Action. To match the PhB rule, it should instead say you can only cast a cantrip with any other actions on your turn. It's an incomplete answer the way it's worded, and gives a mistaken impression that the limitation only applies to your Action.

[Eric Diaz]

Common sense trumps rules.

This is my general advice. But I think SPELLS should follow rules. Spellcasters do not need the boost of affecting immune targets most of the time.

But I wouldn't allow someone to trip a snake, either...

If you want a in-depth look of tripping oozes, check my sig, BTW.

[Dalebert]

Tripping doesn't last very long. I think you can temporarily disorient a creature a lot in a manner that would have a similar mechanical effect as tripping a creature. Not a big deal.

Same thing came up when I shield bashed a creature prone underwater. "Can you do that?" Why not? Again, being prone is an extremely temporary condition (usually) and the idea is the creature is all discomboobilated fora moment until they can spend a little movement to reorient themselves.